I don't want to live on this planet anymore

[Anouleth]

But I never called them fat or hypocritical, and it would be an extremely stupid generalization to think as such. Regardless, so far it seems that only one person could see what I was really getting at.

You said:

"Most english speaking female anime fans are extremely vocal and hate anything that sexualizes women, but eat up and praise anything that sexualize men."

You then said:

"So me describing a blatant and obvious hypocrisy about land whales won't let me get the numbers of said land whales?"

So in other words, you are saying that most english speaking female anime fans are hypocritical and fat. You can admit that you're wrong, or that you misspoke or that you weren't clear, but that's what you said. You might not have meant that, but I am not a mindreader, and it seems that most people in this thread agree that this is what you seem to have meant.

So I'm glad that's cleared up, then. When you said that most english speaking anime fans hate the sexualisation of women and praise the sexualisation of men, you misspoke, or were lying, or were possessed or whatever. Which is good, because it's wrong.

[Original Alear]

You said:

"Most english speaking female anime fans are extremely vocal and hate anything that sexualizes women, but eat up and praise anything that sexualize men."

You then said:

"So me describing a blatant and obvious hypocrisy about land whales won't let me get the numbers of said land whales?"

So in other words, you are saying that most english speaking female anime fans are hypocritical and fat. You can admit that you're wrong, or that you misspoke or that you weren't clear, but that's what you said. You might not have meant that, but I am not a mindreader, and it seems that most people in this thread agree that this is what you seem to have meant.

So I'm glad that's cleared up, then. When you said that most english speaking anime fans hate the sexualisation of women and praise the sexualisation of men, you misspoke, or were lying, or were possessed or whatever. Which is good, because it's wrong.

Bravo.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Protip: Most english speaking female anime fans are extremely vocal and hate anything that sexualizes women, but eat up and praise anything that sexualize men. This is in part why some "anime scholars" (for lack of a better term) believe more homosexual/moe anime about men will be on the rise in the coming years. In fact, it is already on the rise. Just take a look at the numbers for the amount of doujins made during comiket. The number 1 spot for series with the most doujin went to Tohou of course, but the rest of the series in the top ten pretty much all went too anime that sexualize men/aimed at fujoshi like Tiger and Bunny, Inazuma 11, and Reborn.

Yes, because we all know Tiger and Bunny, Inazuma 11 and Reborn contain constant pans over the guys tight buttocks and loving zoom ins on their packages. Oh wait.

[Original Alear]

Yes, because we all know Tiger and Bunny, Inazuma 11 and Reborn contain constant pans over the guys tight buttocks and loving zoom ins on their packages. Oh wait.

THATS THE WORST PART! You nailed it (but I don't think it's a bad person). The female gaze just isn't as perverse as its male cousin!

[peener weener]

I have no idea what half of the terms being used are

[Aleph]

neginaginegimasamune

[eclipse]

If you wanna land a girl worth anything, you gotta be like Anouleth.

[uguu]

be homosexual?

[Blademaster!]

"So me describing a blatant and obvious hypocrisy about land whales won't let me get the numbers of said land whales?"

Something I then said I was joking when I said that.

So in other words, you are saying that most english speaking female anime fans are hypocritical

In certain aspects, yes.

and fat.

Not really, but given how fat most english speakers are in general, I wouldn't be surprised if this goes both ways for men and women.

When you said that most female english speaking anime fans hate the sexualisation of women and praise the sexualisation of men, you misspoke, or were lying, or were possessed or whatever. Which is good, because it's wrong.

But they do praise the sexualization of men and are extraordinarily bias towards anything that sexualizes women. Boy's love manga is one of the fastest growing genre in the anime/manga, and all that does is constantly sexualize men in a manner seen as appealing for women. This article is a perfect example of what I'm talking about: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2011/san-diego-comic-con/17

From the article:

"Next came Volin's pick Bad Teacher's Equation by boys-love mangaka Kazuma Kodaka. The story has been "floating around on the Internet" for years and has finally been released in English. Volin praised the story because its depiction of male couples is "as realistic as yaoi is ever going to get." The story is about a young man who falls in love with a teacher, although nothing happens between them until the boy is of age. Volin admitted that the first volume is a bit odd, but suddenly "everything turns" around volume three and readers want to spend time with the characters...despite the lack of sex in the book."

This is a manga that is being praised for being one of the best manga of 2011, and one of the complaints about it is the lack of sex scenes aka they don't sexualize the men enough. If you read further down the article, you will see that two of the worst manga of 2011 are Highschool of the Dead, a manga that has great artwork and an interesting plot, and Qwaser of Stigmata, a battle manga with a unique concept. What do both of these two manga have in common? They both sexualize women, and are thus terrible for that reason alone.

Yes, because we all know Tiger and Bunny, Inazuma 11 and Reborn contain constant pans over the guys tight buttocks and loving zoom ins on their packages. Oh wait.

Way too completely miss what I was talking about. I used those three series as examples because of the amount of doujins they had at comiket. I don't know if I should give the source for this because of some of the content of the article, but here are the numbers I was referring too (Bolded titles are series that are mostly all yaoi doujin/series that primarily target fujoshi):

Touhou: 2690

Tiger & Bunny: 1170

Hetalia: 1000

Sengoku Basara: 842

Vocaloid: 492 (It gets a decent number of yaoi manga too)

Prince of Tennis: 460

Reborn: 458

Gintama: 438

Blue Exorcist: 428

IdolMaster: 417

Inazuma Eleven: 398

Madoka: 350

Tomodachi ga Sukunai: 322

Nintama: 298

Arashi: 282 (I don't know what this is referring too, but potentially an all male boy band?)

Durarara: 278

Lyrical Nanoha: 271

One Piece: 254

Naruto: 244 (Gets a decent number of yaoi doujin too)

Magi: 227

K-ON!: 200

5194 "potential yaoi" vs 5307 "potential not yaoi", if we exclue Arashi and Naruto. This is almost unprecedented for at comiket, and is a clear sign of the growth I was talking about.

Perhaps it would have been better of me to have said women like things women like, men like things men like, just because women don't like something doesn't mean it is inherently bad as Elitist had clearly implied. If you know anything about anime and manga, you should be aware of the growing trend in boys love manga though.

[Freohr Datia]

Not really, but given how fat most english speakers are in general, I wouldn't be surprised if this goes both ways for men and women.

......... Well!!

*sticks up nose*

*huffily exits the topic*

Oh and I think you mean Americans, not english speakers

[uguu]

Not really, but given how fat most english speakers are in general, I wouldn't be surprised if this goes both ways for men and women.

lol

[eclipse]

Stop the presses, OP is making stupid generalizations again.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Way too completely miss what I was talking about. I used those three series as examples because of the amount of doujins they had at comiket. I don't know if I should give the source for this because of some of the content of the article, but here are the numbers I was referring too (Bolded titles are series that are mostly all yaoi doujin/series that primarily target fujoshi):

Touhou: 2690

Tiger & Bunny: 1170

Hetalia: 1000

Sengoku Basara: 842

Vocaloid: 492 (It gets a decent number of yaoi manga too)

Prince of Tennis: 460

Reborn: 458

Gintama: 438

Blue Exorcist: 428

IdolMaster: 417

Inazuma Eleven: 398

Madoka: 350

Tomodachi ga Sukunai: 322

Nintama: 298

Arashi: 282 (I don't know what this is referring too, but potentially an all male boy band?)

Durarara: 278

Lyrical Nanoha: 271

One Piece: 254

Naruto: 244 (Gets a decent number of yaoi doujin too)

Magi: 227

K-ON!: 200

5194 "potential yaoi" vs 5307 "potential not yaoi", if we exclue Arashi and Naruto. This is almost unprecedented for at comiket, and is a clear sign of the growth I was talking about.

And you missed my point. Pornographic doujinshi are irrelevent because they are inherently sexualizing, so they're actually completely irrelevent to the point, which is that fanservice in Negima makes it worse.

[Anouleth]

But they do praise the sexualization of men and are extraordinarily bias towards anything that sexualizes women.

I have never met a woman who does this. In fact, the female anime fans I know are perfectly happy to watch stuff like Kamen no Maid Guy (where the entire plotline seems to revolve around the main character's breasts at times).

Boy's love manga is one of the fastest growing genre in the anime/manga, and all that does is constantly sexualize men in a manner seen as appealing for women. This article is a perfect example of what I'm talking about: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2011/san-diego-comic-con/17

So what? That doesn't make women hypocritical.

This is a manga that is being praised for being one of the best manga of 2011, and one of the complaints about it is the lack of sex scenes aka they don't sexualize the men enough.

That's not a complaint. In fact, it's fairly typical for yaoi. Like how in Gravitation, you would have entire volumes full of Shuichi whining about Yuki with barely any sex at all. That's because in general, women seem to prefer romance to pornography.

If you read further down the article, you will see that two of the worst manga of 2011 are Highschool of the Dead, a manga that has great artwork and an interesting plot, and Qwaser of Stigmata, a battle manga with a unique concept. What do both of these two manga have in common? They both sexualize women, and are thus terrible for that reason alone.

Oh no, how DARE these people disagree with the anime tastes of noble anime scholars such as yourself! Looking quickly at the description of Highschool of the Dead, it's:

"Themes: Ecchi, fanservice, Gore, harem, zombies "

No fucking wonder it's getting panned. Softcore porn movies are not typicallywell-received by movie critics, and manga where the entire theme is fanservice presumably don't tend to do well amongst manga critics. If this Highschool of the Dead is so fucking great, then why didn't the four male members of the panel recommend it? Probably because it's shit.

So what do we have? We have this Bad Teacher's Equation manga, which seems to be a romance with not a whole lot of sex, and Highschool of the Dead which seems to be softcore porn. I don't think that the reason one is getting panned and the other is getting praised is because of the gender they appeal to.

Perhaps it would have been better of me to have said women like things women like, men like things men like, just because women don't like something doesn't mean it is inherently bad as Elitist had clearly implied.]

Both men and women will enjoy a manga that's good. If an anime or manga has literally nothing that will appeal to any woman, that's a bad sign.

[Blademaster!]

Oh and I think you mean Americans, not english speakers

Obesity is a growing concern in many English speaking countries, not just America.

And you missed my point. Pornographic doujinshi are irrelevent because they are inherently sexualizing, so they're actually completely irrelevent to the point, which is that fanservice in Negima makes it worse.

1. Doujin are not always pornographic.

2. No, I didn't miss your point, I explained it and gave an answer, and then described a trend in the anime industry to help back up my point. You then decided to, again, strawman and attack the examples I gave to help show this growing trend. But I'll explain to you my point again, along with my interpretation of yours.

You clearly said that the fanservice in Negima is bad because women don't like female fanservice. This is a hypocritical statement, because most female anime fans like boys love/going out of their way to sexualize men (which is why the term fujoshi really exists and why so many shounen/seinen series add in Bishounen characters and pseudo homosexual shipping scenes[something Negima also does btw]). I then described this growing trend to help back up my point, and I've now even posted an article showing exactly what I was talking about, in addition to the amount of comiket doujin showing this growing trend.

But now that I remember it, it may be wrong in general to think that women hate fanservice considering the fact that shoujo manga depict sex A LOT more often then shounen manga do though, for some strange reason.

I have never met a woman who does this.

I've meet women from both sides, with the women doing what I describe VASTLY outnumbering those who don't.

So what? That doesn't make women hypocritical.

It makes them hypocritical about the current subject at hand.

That's not a complaint.

No, that is clearly a complaint.

Oh no, how DARE these people disagree with the anime tastes of noble anime scholars such as yourself!

I'm not talking about whether or not they disagree with my opinion on the subject or not, and I'm not an "anime scholar."

Looking quickly at the description of Highschool of the Dead, it's:

"Themes: Ecchi, fanservice, Gore, harem, zombies "

No fucking wonder it's getting panned. Softcore porn movies are not typicallywell-received by movie critics, and manga where the entire theme is fanservice presumably don't tend to do well amongst manga critics. If this Highschool of the Dead is so fucking great, then why didn't the four male members of the panel recommend it? Probably because it's shit.

But that isn't the entire theme of high school of the dead. It's a survival horror story with fanservice thrown in. Additionally, High School of the Dead was the most popular anime of the season that it aired in, was 25th in the best selling manga in the U.S.A. for 2010, and was so well received by fans abroad that the authors left a message for them in English in one of the volumes. I wouldn't really call a series like that shit. Qwaser on the other hand...

I don't think that the reason one is getting panned and the other is getting praised is because of the gender they appeal to.

I beg to differ.

Both men and women will enjoy a manga that's good. If an anime or manga has literally nothing that will appeal to any woman, that's a bad sign.

And the converse is also true.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Blademaster!

[Freohr Datia]

So english speakers are the only anime fans too, apparently? ;b

Oh nooooo how hypocritical of me, I was supposed to leave this topic~

Edited February 5, 2012 by Freohr Abr Datia

[MacLovin]

Seriously.

Its a cartoon.

A piece of sequential art meant for entertainment.

And, the OP is forever alone.

[Anouleth]

Obesity is a growing concern in many English speaking countries, not just America.

Obesity is a growing concern in countries all across the world:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7151813.stm

But now that I remember it, it may be wrong in general to think that women hate fanservice considering the fact that shoujo manga depict sex A LOT more often then shounen manga do though, for some strange reason.

I've meet women from both sides, with the women doing what I describe VASTLY outnumbering those who don't.

You clearly need to meet more women, then.

It makes them hypocritical about the current subject at hand.

No, it doesn't. You can dislike fanservice in mangas and approve of it in doujins. After all, if there's a yuri sex scene or whatever in a manga, you can't really avoid it, and if you do you lose out on the story. But if someone writes one in a doujin, you don't have to read that.

No, that is clearly a complaint.

It clearly isn't.

I'm not talking about whether or not they disagree with my opinion on the subject or not, and I'm not an "anime scholar."

Clearly you are. You love the shit out of these animes, and they don't, and you assume that's because they hate the sexualisation of females.

But that isn't the entire theme of high school of the dead. It's a survival horror story with fanservice thrown in. Additionally, High School of the Dead was the most popular anime of the season that it aired in, was 25th in the best selling manga in the U.S.A. for 2010, and was so well received by fans abroad that the authors left a message for them in English in one of the volumes. I wouldn't really call a series like that shit. Qwaser on the other hand...

Seeing as the fanservice is such an integral part of the show that 3 of the 5 themes are "ecchi, fanservice, harem", I'd say it's a pretty huge section.

I beg to differ.

You are an idiot if the only difference you can see between Bad Teacher's Equation and Highschool of the Dead is that one targets men and the other targets women.

[Defeatist Elitist]

1. Doujin are not always pornographic.

2. No, I didn't miss your point, I explained it and gave an answer, and then described a trend in the anime industry to help back up my point. You then decided to, again, strawman and attack the examples I gave to help show this growing trend. But I'll explain to you my point again, along with my interpretation of yours.

You clearly said that the fanservice in Negima is bad because women don't like female fanservice. This is a hypocritical statement, because most female anime fans like boys love/going out of their way to sexualize men (which is why the term fujoshi really exists and why so many shounen/seinen series add in Bishounen characters and pseudo homosexual shipping scenes[something Negima also does btw]). I then described this growing trend to help back up my point, and I've now even posted an article showing exactly what I was talking about, in addition to the amount of comiket doujin showing this growing trend.

But now that I remember it, it may be wrong in general to think that women hate fanservice considering the fact that shoujo manga depict sex A LOT more often then shounen manga do though, for some strange reason.

*sigh*

Alright, let me break it down for you. Over sexualization in Negima is a completely legitimate criticism for people to make because Negima presents itself as being an actual manga with plot. Sexualization of men in doujin does not make this hypocritical because none of these doujin are pretending to be anything more than pornography. The problem doesn't lie in the fact that women are sometimes sexualized, the problem lies in the fact that women are routinely oversexualized in material that claims to be more than just pornography, often with little need or reason.

None of the shows or manga these fujoshi doujin are based on really sexualized men. Very few shows or manga at all sexualize men, and if something DOES sexualize men, it tends to be definitively pornographic, and not something trying to pass for a legitimate piece of art.

[uguu]

Obesity is a growing concern in countries all across the world:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7151813.stm

More on this, this is only adults. At high school in Texas, the fattest part of America iirc, around 5/400 students were fat. In an Ohio high school, about 2/400 are fat. Remember that this is the audience for manga. Now say that they're all fatasses. And don't say that the fat people are the ones that read manga and watch anime and stuff, I've seen a ton of underweight kids (like me!) talk about manga.

[MacLovin]

ok i'm glad its over because what the fuck would ken akamatsu need to put in there since

fucking negi already met nagi

what would be the next arc? it's a logical end point, the protagonist has accomplished his goal

Nagi turned evil.

I think some people want to know why.

[Blademaster!]

You clearly need to meet more women, then.

Because I'm sure you've meet that many more right? The fact that you can claim you've never met people from both sides speaks VOLUMES about the amount of women you know.

No, it doesn't.

It clearly isn't.

This is clearly going no where.

Seeing as the fanservice is such an integral part of the show that 3 of the 5 themes are "ecchi, fanservice, harem", I'd say it's a pretty huge section.

Fanservice and ecchi are the same thing, and just because something has harem elements to it does not mean it will contain fanservice. In fact HSOD isn't even really a harem, and is a love triange at best. But yes, fanservice does play a part to the direction and comedy.

You are an idiot if the only difference you can see between Bad Teacher's Equation and Highschool of the Dead is that one targets men and the other targets women.

But that's the biggest and most important difference between the two: The demographic.

Over sexualization in Negima is a completely legitimate criticism for people to make because Negima presents itself as being an actual manga with plot.

But you never made that claim until now, hence why this argument even started. If you started off with saying this, I never would have said anything and agreed with you.

Sexualization of men in doujin does not make this hypocritical because none of these doujin are pretending to be anything more than pornography.

For the third time, I am using doujin as an example to show a trend and change in the industry.

None of the shows or manga these fujoshi doujin are based on really sexualized men.

You could probably make an argument about this for reborn and definitely Hetallia, but again, I'm only using those series as examples to show a growing trend.

Very few shows or manga at all sexualize men, and if something DOES sexualize men, it tends to be definitively pornographic, and not something trying to pass for a legitimate piece of art.

No, there are a decent amount of manga that do just what you are describing and try to pass of as being "legitimate pieces of art." If you take a look at actual manga (not doujin) published in 2011, you would see that a very large number of them are all boys love. As for anime, those usually seem to pass under the radar for the most part, but they exist.

[Defeatist Elitist]

But you never made that claim until now, hence why this argument even started. If you started off with saying this, I never would have said anything and agreed with you.

I apologize if it was unclear, but I'm not sure what other argument I could have been making. To be clear, you are agreeing with me that the over sexualization of women due to fanservice in Negima makes the manga worse, right?

For the third time, I am using doujin as an example to show a trend and change in the industry.

I totally get that fujoshi are becoming an increasingly large part of sales as far as anime and manga are concerned, but that's actually not important.

You could probably make an argument about this for reborn and definitely Hetallia, but again, I'm only using those series as examples to show a growing trend.

No, there are a decent amount of manga that do just what you are describing and try to pass of as being "legitimate pieces of art." If you take a look at actual manga (not doujin) published in 2011, you would see that a very large number of them are all boys love. As for anime, those usually seem to pass under the radar for the most part, but they exist.

Boys love does not immediately equal over sexualization of men, and the fact that this tends to sort of be implied demonstrates some of the problems in the anime/manga community.

It's not over sexualization of men until they get the same treatment the women get, that is to say, unless you get plenty of ass shots and package zoom ins, it doesn't count. None of the things you listed had anything even resembling that shit.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Defeatist Elitist

[Blademaster!]

I apologize if it was unclear, but I'm not sure what other argument I could have been making.

Well, I thought I explained the argument I thought you were making, but I'm glad that little misconception has been cleared up then.

To be clear, you are agreeing with me that the over sexualization of women due to fanservice in Negima makes the manga worse, right?

Yes and no. In the case of Negima, I would not agree given the nature in which fanservice is used (for more comedic than sexual purposes) and as such, it can become hard to draw a line. However, in the case of other series like the manga Cage of Eden (still a really great manga though) or the anime currently airing this season "Listen to me girls! I am your father!" I would agree with you. And then there are manga like Berserk where I wouldn't know what to think given how sex is used to expand upon tragedy and atmosphere. Do you see what I mean?

Boys love does not immediately equal over sexualization of men, and the fact that this tends to sort of be implied demonstrates some of the problems in the anime/manga community.

Yes, there are a lot of similar problems like that with moe, shounen, etc.

It's not over sexualization of men until they get the same treatment the women get, that is to say, unless you get plenty of ass shots and package zoom ins, it doesn't count. None of the things you listed had anything even resembling that shit.

I kind of agree with you here, but the "problem" with what you are describing here though would relate to why manga/anime even have fanservice in my mind. A manga or anime that would do what you describe would be seen as a comedy, and some anime/manga already do what you are describing for comedic purposes, like Beelzebub, Inumaru Dashi, manga/anime featuring traps(generally aimed towards a male audience though), and Milky Holmes.

Also, the way in which sexes are portrayed for women in manga is much different than it is for men. Manga aimed towards a male audience do just what you describe when it comes to fanservice. Manga aimed towards a female audience generally tend to emphasize "the power of the leading partner" and attractive facial and upper body figures (these two examples are mostly true for all three types(should there be more?) of romance[straight\gay\lesbian]). This is also in part why yuri isn't anywhere near as popular as yaoi, because yuri is generally made in a format more aimed at women and essentially alienates male audiences.

[Original Alear]

And then there are manga like Berserk where I wouldn't know what to think given how sex is used to expand upon tragedy and atmosphere.

OMG someone mentioned Berserk I think I just came.