Why is LTC hated?

[Constable Reggie]

I find it utterly disgusting that Olwen refuses to give the same courtesy that Eclipse gave him, and is still trying to justify not doing so. Disgusting. Someone like Eclipse, who has been genuinely trying to help you, deserves better than that.

[RJWalker]

I think there's the same issue here. You clearly can't explain to me what's implied when you call someone a casual player, and perhaps this is why casual is considered offensive--because it feels that way, for whatever reason.

Dude, multiple poeple have posted why. Either you're blind or stupid or doing it one purpose. Pick one.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Steampunk]

I was asking what was implied by the usage.

And you completely ignored my question. Doesn't matter though. Your conduct tells me exactly what I wanted to know. I'll make one last attempt, though I don't think it will change anything. "Casual" is a lot like the term "amateur." Amateur, in the strictest sense, means that someone performs a certain job or uses a certain skill out of interest rather than doing it to pay the bills. Despite that, many elitist use "amateur" as an insult, implying that someone isn't good enough at something to make money doing it. It's a passive aggressive way of saying someone isn't up to your standard, which is presumably very high. That's why many people prefer the term "enthusiast." It means the exact same thing, but it carries a different connotation.

If someone played guitar as a hobby, and I said "wow, you pretty good for an amateur," they might take that as a veiled insult even if I meant it as a compliment, because "amateur" implies a low standard of guitar playing. If I just said "wow, that's pretty good," without adding "for an amateur," I'm communicating the same compliment I intended without giving the negative connotations that word carries. If they got pissed off because I called them an amateur, and I go on to say "hey, there's nothing wrong with being an amateur! Lot's of people are amateurs! I don't have a problem with you being an amateur!" that's not making the situation better because it doesn't change the fact that they consider "amateur" an insult. If anything, it's making things worse because I am repeatedly emphasizing the fact that I think they are an amateur, and am continuing to patronize them when it has become clear they don't like it. If they're still mad, and I pull out a dictionary and point them to the definition of amateur and go on saying "see, this is what amateur means! See why it's okay for me to call you that now?" you're just rubbing more salt in the wound because now you're telling them you think they're too stupid to know what "amateur" means. In English, we call this "digging a deeper grave."

Instead, you could just apologize to them, avoid all the fighting and aggravation, and show them you aren't a patronizing douchebag because you don't you're so much better than them that you can't acknowledge you fucked up and used the wrong word. Most human beings respect people who do this. They don't, on average respect people who do the former on a regular basis.

Clearly you're doing it on purpose. I refuse to believe anyone could be that blind.

Agreed. I have Asperger's Syndrome. I am as socially inept as they come, and I understand why he's wrong. There's no way he doesn't understand what everyone's saying. He just doesn't want to accept it. Unfortunately, while everyone is entitled to their own opinion, they aren't entitled to their own facts.

I find it utterly disgusting that Olwen refuses to give the same courtesy that Eclipse gave him, and is still trying to justify not doing so. Disgusting. Someone like Eclipse, who has been genuinely trying to help you, deserves better than that.

Also agreed. It says a lot about someone who whines about being insulted and offended and expects an apology, but considers themselves too great to apologize those they've upset. It amazes me how much time and effort he's put in to justifying his actions when a simple "I'm sorry" would have taken less time and work and would also probably improve people's opinion of him, but what can you do when you're dealing with someone who's never wrong?

Edited June 21, 2013 by Sheik

[shadykid]

At this point I am unsure. This topic has made me realize that the problem with LTC seems to be a small percentage of the people and not the system. I'm not sure if I should be blaming the people, though, for being unaccepting and elitist, or the system for allowing such an elitism to exist. I don't think I can give up my hatred for LTC overnight, but... I am certain my disdain for it is poorly placed. I don't think I'll ever see it as a valid tiering method, but to stop hating it... That much I can at least try.

"small percentage"=one person who shall not be named

join us

[Chiki]

If calling me a chauvinist pig is help, then yeah, that's wonderful help

Also, casual has nothing to do with amateur. I play casually but I don't consider myself an amateur. The problem is with the people, not with the term.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Chiki

[Constable Reggie]

Yeah it's not like she apologized for that or anything.

She must be a truly, truly awful person.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[ZemZem]

Yeah it's not like she apologized for that or anything.

She must be a truly, truly awful person.

He has a point. Eclipse did seem truly sorry for insulting you like that.

Now, I've noticed that a lot of people on this site make fun of you unfairly (Interceptor, dondon, etc.), Chiki, and either the harping is ignored or supported by others. That's something I don't agree with, because come on. No one deserves to put up with shit like that. I wish the mods would do more about it, but you're not necessarily the victim here. In the past, you did give others (including myself, but that changed) a bad first impression of you. I still don't think you deserve any flak you get, but still.

Edit: But you know, I'm probably talking nonsense. No one cares about what I say or do, so w/e.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Zeem

[Redwall]

If calling me a chauvinist pig is help, then yeah, that's wonderful help

As you yourself pointed out, it is immature of you to continue to hold a grudge against eclipse; why, then, are you still going on about her comment?

eclipse is trying to help you. Zeem is trying to help you. I'm trying to help you. Can we at least agree on that?

[Loki Laufeyson]

Chiki, i think you need professional help. Seriously. Basic social skills seem to be missing from your daily life. Either that, or youre purposely being this way in order to troll the lot of us. And no, i have no regrets on the following message. |

Narga, about the term casual, perhaps simply clarifying that when a person uses the term in regards to the differences between that and LTC would be a good idea. Personally, i never found LTC to be more "hardcore" than say, getting all of the supports in a game or something. Its simply a playstyle. But some people seem to be upset about the term casual because it makes them feel like they got lumped into that group of a 7 year old kid who likes to button mash during Halo. So like, instead of treating other playstyles outside LTC as "casual" just say something like "Im doing LTC." Some peeps already are doing it by saying "Im doing efficiency" or "I am dicking around with the game this time, fuck the police."

[Steampunk]

Also, casual has nothing to do with amateur. I play casually but I don't consider myself an amateur. The problem is with the people, not with the term.

Yeah, I knew it wouldn't do any good. Once again, you have completely missed the point of what I was saying. Most people are intelligent enough to recognize a simple analogy. Clearly I overestimated you in this regard.

[Camilla]

I don't think Olwen was initially wrong, but he did take it a bit too far. I can see how he isn't an innocent victim entirely, however, he was not the instigator either. I honestly can't even comprehend why anyone would feel offended by someone trying to guess what they were thinking, it's one of the most basic things to happen in social situations. When you read a book you try to vision what the author was thinking to understand their work. When you read an essay written by someone you try to figure out what they were thinking to make their points. When you interact with people you try to figure out what they are thinking so you can understand them. When someone guesses what another is thinking they can be wrong, and there is an appropriate way for it to be handled. The person can easily tell them they are incorrect and then follow it up by what they meant/were thinking. If they aren't comfortable with someone guessing what they meant, then they can easily ask the person to please refrain from doing that any further. That kind of response would naturally have a better receptive.

Honestly, it just gives Olwen reasons to lash out. If you don't want him to behave badly, it would help to not provoke or instigate him. He isn't going to be able to improve if people are always out to get him, because anyone is naturally going to think "well everyone is going to always be against me so what's the point" in situations like such. If people were civil enough to try to make it through a few threads without jumping on him his behavior would probably naturally start to change all across the forum. In short, you aren't helping what you're complaining about.

I could see Olwen maybe apologizing that she took it wrong and explaining why he assumed what he did, but I don't think he should outright apologize for saying it.

The action itself wasn't wrong.

And I have to agree that calling someone names and losing your cool isn't helping or in someone's best interest.

[Constable Reggie]

Because non-apologies (I'm sorry that you misinterpreted my meaning) are the best way to make reparations.

[Redwall]

Your argument is this:

1) It makes me uncomfortable.

---

2) Therefore, what makes me uncomfortable isn't true.

Sorry, but the world doesn't work like that. You can't decide your race nor your gender.

There's a fine line between guessing someone's intent and putting words in his or her mouth. I have repeatedly pointed out that although he wasn't intentionally being rude, Olwen's refusal to own up to his words is deliberate, and he is aware that this continues to offend eclipse.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Redwall

[eclipse]

At this point I am unsure. This topic has made me realize that the problem with LTC seems to be a small percentage of the people and not the system. I'm not sure if I should be blaming the people, though, for being unaccepting and elitist, or the system for allowing such an elitism to exist. I don't think I can give up my hatred for LTC overnight, but... I am certain my disdain for it is poorly placed. I don't think I'll ever see it as a valid tiering method, but to stop hating it... That much I can at least try.

I like this mindset!

Note, for the record, no idea whether Olwen would care where you categorize him or who you lump him with. Maybe he'd be offended for being associated with a 200+ turn player and maybe he wouldn't. Whatever. The point is, with a two-label system, you are GOING TO OFFEND SOMEONE. Why should we care more about someone not wanting to be associated with his grandma than someone who doesn't want to be associated with a 200+ turn person?

How about asking what kind of gamer that person perceives himself/herself as? That way, you'll not only get a better idea of which category (if any) they think they subscribe to, and you'll also get an idea of what they think of that category (and possibly others). It's much harder to offend someone if you know what they see themselves as! It also makes for a good icebreaker, as people tend to like talking about themselves (citation needed, I'm lazy, etc.)

I never presumed her to be a soccer mom. She was debating with Narga Rocks about that. I know she's a college student.

I can say this definitively, with my head held high, and with no room for argument: Your assumption about my age is very, VERY wrong. It's hidden for a reason.

[-Cynthia-]

If not casual, what other term should be used to describe playstyles that vary a lot from LTC? Slow playthrough? Completionist playthrough? Grinding playthrough?

[Chiki]

I'd be the first to apologize--even if there was nothing wrong with what I did, as I was not putting words in her mouth--if I hadn't been called a chauvinist pig. Not once have I flamed her or done anything offensive on purpose, and the action was completely unwarranted.

If not casual, what other term should be used to describe playstyles that vary a lot from LTC? Slow playthrough? Completionist playthrough? Grinding playthrough?

Grinding = casual, unless it has the intention to challenge one's self

Completionist = casual

Slow = casual

Supports = casual

0% = hardcore

LTC = hardcore

Efficiency = casual/hardcore (in my opinion)

I define casual as something the public perceives to be as not challenging. So if people think that completionist playthroughs are hardcore, then okay.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Chiki

[eclipse]

Chiki, I already apologized for that. Are you still hung up over it?

[Snowy_One]

If not casual, what other term should be used to describe playstyles that vary a lot from LTC? Slow playthrough? Completionist playthrough? Grinding playthrough?

How about 'Leisurely'? A playthrough where someone wants to complete the game in a decent time, but doesn't actually care about turncount?

[shadykid]

Because non-apologies (I'm sorry that you misinterpreted my meaning) are the best way to make reparations.

GOPplaybook.txt

anyway thread title should probably read "Why is Chiki hated?", it'd actually fit the thread discussion

[dondon151]

Now, I've noticed that a lot of people on this site make fun of you unfairly (Interceptor, dondon, etc.)

please explain how that is unfair!

[choco]

Chiki probably has an MBTI personality type of ISTJ - people with this type tend to think that they are always right. Often times, they are since they usually give their own arguments due diligence. Social skills don't come naturally though for these types, and I doubt he has ever really faced the reality that sometimes your beliefs are not entirely correct. In the case of speed runs, he's pretty much started from the premise that LTC is the true way to play, and will aggressively fight anyone who thinks otherwise. It's not that this trait is inherently bad - these types are great at getting things done correctly and by the book, but when they are undeveloped socially as well as intellectually immature, they limit themselves to much to only what they understand and shut down too easily that which they don't. Obviously other people aren't really helping this problem - many just want to prove to him that they are right too even though it doesn't accomplish anything because the ISTJ is "always right"

Of course I could be completely off base, and he might be a similar judging type, but reading this page may be illuminating to understanding him better and how he can identify and strengthen his weaknesses. http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ISTJ_per.html

Anyways, I encourage everyone to find out their own MBTI personality type, as understanding yourself and others is really important if you care about having more effective relationships with others, and getting things done.

[Snowy_One]

INFJ for me.

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INFJ.html

[Donnel]

I'm enjoying myself when I read this thread with the arguments going around, but I have no intention of joining the fight until I read this

Grinding = casual, unless it has the intention to challenge one's self

Completionist = casual

Slow = casual

Supports = casual

0% = hardcore

LTC = hardcore

Efficiency = casual/hardcore (in my opinion)

I define casual as something the public perceives to be as not challenging. So if people think that completionist playthroughs are hardcore, then okay.

It offend hell out of me.

You can call us perfectionist or completionist and we'll stay neutral, but you're pitting us as grinding, slow, supports the same as completionist while making what you played hardcore elite. If this isn't elitist, it will be chauvinist pig.

Grinding = patient, unless it has the intention to challenge one's self

Completionist = Perfection

Slow = Taking own sweet time

Supports = Lovable, romantic

0% = hardcore(retarded for Chiki)

LTC = masochistic

Efficiency = casual/hardcore (in my opinion)

You try hang yourself for the maximum duration without being out of breath since that is a challenge which no sound human can complete.

I will not apologize in anyway until this guy wake up his bloody mind.

[RJWalker]

Casual would be just going through the game, not bothering with any supports, not bothering with getting all the characters, all the sidequests, etc. Anything that requires a certain level of dedication is hardcore.

[Siruppercut]

I'd be the first to apologize--even if there was nothing wrong with what I did, as I was not putting words in her mouth--if I hadn't been called a chauvinist pig. Not once have I flamed her or done anything offensive on purpose, and the action was completely unwarranted.

Grinding = casual, unless it has the intention to challenge one's self

Completionist = casual

Slow = casual

Supports = casual

0% = hardcore

LTC = hardcore

Efficiency = casual/hardcore (in my opinion)

I define casual as something the public perceives to be as not challenging. So if people think that completionist playthroughs are hardcore, then okay.

Completionist is certainly not casual game play. I'm more into being a completionist when playing games. Example: In Sengoku Rance to be a completionist, you would have to play the game several times and even doing a LTC game as well which in your definition is hardcore.