How is Jagen a "bad" unit? Especially compared to Oifey?

[The Void]

The enemies in his first game aren't that strong, he's mounted, his weapons, and his access to stat boosters, and he's there from the start. Oifey isn't much better than him. How did the Jagen=Bad character that much be benched after the first few chapters thing come about?

With the "Jagen VS Oifey" distinction and "Oifey" being used for somebody like Titania, I'm wondering how that came about also.

Edited August 11, 2013 by The Void

[TheEnd]

Paradigm shift.

In the early days of the fandom, growth rates meant everything - and Jagen has no growths (quite literally, in FE1/3).

Afaik Oifaye is currently considered worse than Jagen, Marcus and the like, because despite his higher stats/growths he can't steamroll.

Also, fan archetypes are dumb.

[CT075]

i swear i made a huge post about this in another topic in generalFE somewhere but i don't want to dig it up

i would argue that the widely-used definition of "jeigan" doesn't exist (unit who wrecks hard earlygame but gets really outclassed later). there are a few units who fall into that (fe10!sothe [who doesn't fall off for a long time anyway], lunatic frederick and fe6 marcus are the only ones i can think of)

for the most part oifaye is closer to that archetype than jeigan (which is really ironic, all things considered)

[shadykid]

i swear i made a huge post about this in another topic in generalFE somewhere but i don't want to dig it up

i would argue that the widely-used definition of "jeigan" doesn't exist (unit who wrecks hard earlygame but gets really outclassed later). there are a few units who fall into that (fe10!sothe [who doesn't fall off for a long time anyway], lunatic frederick and fe6 marcus are the only ones i can think of)

for the most part oifaye is closer to that archetype than jeigan (which is really ironic, all things considered)

silly casuals making contradictory statements

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Jagen actually is somewhat not useful after some chapters, particularly, fuck Jagen in Minerva

But the fact that noob thinks unit such as Marth and Wendell sucks should tell you how much they don't know shit about FE1

Edited August 11, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[shadykid]

Jagen actually is somewhat not useful after some chapters, particularly, fuck Jagen in Minerva

But the fact that noob thinks unit such as Marth and Wendell sucks should tell you how much they don't know shit about FE1

Marth has no pants, therefore he sucks

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Marth has no pants, therefore he sucks

His Rapier can't be shown off to the public

[The Void]

How did Oifey get his reputation if he falls off and can't use stat boosters to bump himself up like Jagen?

He's worse than Dadgar (if he counts) and BS Marcus. He isn't much better than DD Jagen or BB Marcus.

Edited August 11, 2013 by The Void

[shadykid]

How did Oifey get his reputation if he falls off and can't use stat boosters to bump himself up like Jagen?

herp derp growths are everything!!!!! /fanbase back then

[CT075]

oifaye doesn't really "fall off" as such, he's still a really solid unit

it's just that when you're in a game where you can have a 30 might tome that gives +20 speed in the first chapter, and then a sword that's pretty much the same thing in the next, it's pretty hard not to get outclassed

[Refa]

Marth has no pants, therefore he sucks

Just like Asvel, he gets them upon promotion.

How did Oifey get his reputation if he falls off and can't use stat boosters to bump himself up like Jagen?

He's worse than Dadgar (if he counts) and BS Marcus. He isn't much better than DD Jagen or BB Marcus.

Oifaye can use rings to bring himself up....and Hero Sword...

Oh no, he's worse than BS Marcus, one of the best FE units ever.

oifaye doesn't really "fall off" as such, he's still a really solid unit

it's just that when you're in a game where you can have a 30 might tome that gives +20 speed in the first chapter, and then a sword that's pretty much the same thing in the next, it's pretty hard not to get outclassed

yeah basically this

i mean

super bro in 0% growths 10/10!

[RJWalker]

Oifey is like the best character ever. Go away all of you.

[bottlegnomes]

oifaye doesn't really "fall off" as such, he's still a really solid unit

it's just that when you're in a game where you can have a 30 might tome that gives +20 speed in the first chapter, and then a sword that's pretty much the same thing in the next, it's pretty hard not to get outclassed

This pretty much.

As Refa said, Oifey is actually fairly similar to FE7 Marcus. He starts off really strong and has the growths to keep him competitive. Both are outclassed later on by trained characters and the really broken characters, but never actually become anything less than good, especially if you give them both some help (like Marcus draco shield/speedwings and Oifey speed ring/hero sword). The thing that makes Oifey seem worse comparatively is that the utterly broken characters join much earlier. Like imagine if Vaida joined in chapter 18. Conversely, imagine if Ares joined halfway through chapter 10. They're also easier to train thanks to the arena and elite ring. Also, and IMO this is the biggest, no rescuing and nothing but sieze encourages breaking Seliph as early as possible.

Anyway, as for Jagen, I can't really say, having never played 1, or 2 or book 1 of 3 for that matter. But Arran is fairly similar in book 3. He falls off pretty quickly, having next to negligible growths (yes orb shards, but whatever), stats not far superior to the other starting characters, and the fact that the other characters have good growths. Rody, for example, is by far the worst of the starting cavs, and he just needs to get to 10/1 to solidly beat Arran in everything. Basically, the others match him quickly and surpass him even more quickly. So if FE1 Jagen is similar to that, I can see why people would think he's bad, even if the enemies are pathetic and he stays usable for a while.

[shadykid]

yeah basically this

i mean

super bro in 0% growths 10/10!

Shanan is super ultra mega bro in 0% growths 10/10!

(he is, right)

[Refa]

FE1!Jeigan is a lot better than FE3!Jeigan, and I haven't really used Arran much, but I figured he was pretty similar, maybe little worse even, because more competition.

Oifey is like the best character ever. Go away all of you.

Bu-but what about Shanan? Celice has always aspired to be as masculine and macho as him!

Shanan is super ultra mega bro in 0% growths 10/10!

(he is, right)

Definetely. You can't beat Alvis without him!

Of course, this is all speculation, I never got past Chapter 4 LOL

Edited August 11, 2013 by Refa

[Jedi]

FE1!Jeigan is a lot better than FE3!Jeigan, and I haven't really used Arran much, but I figured he was pretty similar, maybe little worse even, because more competition.

Shin has used FE3 Book 2 Arran for pretty much the full game, yes orbs were used but his solid weapon rank keeps him in the game for long enough.

[Refa]

Shin has used FE3 Book 2 Arran for pretty much the full game, yes orbs were used but his solid weapon rank keeps him in the game for long enough.

I wouldn't think his weapon rank is really a major selling point, it's not particularly hard to achieve. His base stats look good enough, I guess. So yeah, probably better than Book 1 Jeigan, dunno about FE1!Jeigan though.

[Jedi]

I wouldn't think his weapon rank is really a major selling point, it's not particularly hard to achieve. His base stats look good enough, I guess. So yeah, probably better than Book 1 Jeigan, dunno about FE1!Jeigan though.

Well being able to use silvers is a plus compared to the 3 starting cavs lol. I mean he can use both Silver Lances and Silver Swords! [apparently it takes more to use Silver Swords I just noticed that] And some of the other weapons right away.

Then again Cecil gets the lady sword.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Folgore Red II

[bottlegnomes]

^Base Cecil can use the silver lance, too. As can base Caeda in book 1.

I don't mean to say he's bad, but he's fairly quickly surpassed even with LTCing. The enemies are weak enough that he never really falls off, especially with shards and boosters. However, the other characters largely match and surpass him fairly quickly, so I can see why people would think he's not worth using, therefor bad. On the other hand, it takes the other characters, especially subs (which I'm starting to think have a lot to do with this), take a while to surpass Oifey and FE7 Marcus for most part and the two still remain useful throughout. Overall, Arran is kind of like FE6 Marcus in NM. You can use him the whole game, provided you give him some help, but he's not really worth it in the long run, at least from my experience.

Anyway, if FE1 Jagen noticeably is better, then I'm not really sure, unless, like I said, subs had something to do with it.

Edited August 11, 2013 by bottlegnomes

[Jedi]

^Base Cecil can use the silver lance, too. As can base Caeda in book 1.

I don't mean to say he's bad, but he's fairly quickly surpassed even with LTCing. The enemies are weak enough that he never really falls off, especially with shards and boosters. However, the other characters largely match and surpass him fairly quickly, so I can see why people would think he's not worth using, therefor bad. On the other hand, it takes the other characters, especially subs (which I'm starting to think have a lot to do with this), take a while to surpass Oifey and FE7 Marcus for most part and the two still remain useful throughout. Overall, Arran is kind of like FE6 Marcus in NM. You can use him the whole game, provided you give him some help, but he's not really worth it in the long run, at least from my experience.

Anyway, if FE1 Jagen noticeably is better, then I'm not really sure, unless, like I said, subs had something to do with it.

Funny you mention FE6, Zealot is like Sirius in the sense that he takes the torch from Marcus or you end up using both for awhile. Or if you are playing casual like I do alot of the time it really depends on who I feel like using out of the whole cast xD

Also speaking of Silver users in Book 1, Roshe can also wield silvers at base.

[bottlegnomes]

Now that you mention it, you're right. Now if only Zealot had Sirius' growths.

Looking through it, a surprising number of units can use silver from base in FE3.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Speaking of personal experience here

Jeigan is useful for the early game bosses, but he definitely have problem against:

Draco with 14 def

Generals

And.... That's it

He have Dragonslayer for the former, and AK for the latter

As for Sheeda, Sheeda is unable to promote for long, but after promotion, she have 20 spd and 9 str. Her offense early on are easy to fix, but she's not that amazing even with Lance/steel with her speed as a buffer. She also only have 8 mov instead of 9.

Doesn't matter when Marth should be the one who kill boss but w/e

[shadykid]

As for Sheeda, Sheeda is unable to promote for long, but after promotion, she have 20 spd and 9 str. Her offense early on are easy to fix, but she's not that amazing even with Lance/steel with her speed as a buffer. She also only have 8 mov instead of 9.

that's ok, they'd give her the Win Spear in FE11! :lol

superior speedrun strats, dumping Jagens quickly for those earlygame pegasus knights

[Refa]

that's ok, they'd give her the Win Spear in FE11! :lol

superior speedrun strats, dumping Jagens quickly for those earlygame pegasus knights

totally worked for toothache! and that was the proest of speedruns, the fabled TAS!

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Sheeda with chapter 4 Knight Killer is helpful for chapter 5

Chapter 5 have Silver Lance, which Hardin and Kain and Abel don't need

And the ai in fe1 sometimes mean that in a 2 turn assumption, sheeda have easier time to get exp if that counts