How is Jagen a "bad" unit? Especially compared to Oifey?

[shadykid]

totally worked for toothache! and that was the proest of speedruns, the fabled TAS!

even without TAS, Thany/Florina/Vanessa are much better in segmented speedruns where you can just redo the segment to get key stats (FE10 Jill too, although it is hilarious to look at how bad her BEXP-infused stats are while still being good enough)

then there's FE9 Marcia, who pretty much just solos the game after joining

Edited August 11, 2013 by shadykid

[Refa]

even without TAS, Thany/Florina/Vanessa are much better in segmented speedruns where you can just redo the segment to get key stats (FE10 Jill too, although it is hilarious to look at how bad her BEXP-infused stats are while still being good enough)

then there's FE9 Marcia, who pretty much just solos the game after joining

BUT WHAT ABOUT FE4 OIFAYE PROBABLY HELPS MOAR THAN FEE!

of course fe4 had the worst fliers relative to mounts

and fe4 speedrunning was stoopid after a certain point thanks infinite move glitch

Edited August 11, 2013 by Refa

[Tamanoir]

The problem with Jeigan, Arran, and the 2 Marcus (More FE6!Marcus), is that they come with similar units who will completely beat them rapidly.

Kain and Abel completely surpass jeigan with a few levels in.

Arran have to complete with 3 Cavaliers, and then Sirius comes a few time later, and beats him at everything. At least in FE12 (and maybe FE11), he can be reclassed into DracoKnight, and kill these damn Thief early on.

FE6... You have 4 unpromoted Cavaliers who all will become better enventually (Exccept for Res, OK).
Oyfey is a mounted units, in a game when it' is a real asset, and doesn't have a lot of competition early on (Maybe Delmud, but it's still not that great early on...).

He learns two of the most usefull skill (Especially Pursuit).

Obviously, you can completely trivialize his use, but if you don't make Levin/Tiltyuu, or if you play a Sub Run, he is top tier without a doubt.

Oyfaye's main goal is to save you for a Game Over, if you screwed up. Seliph and Ares do what he does far better, but in the first chapter(s), he's one of the best, and later, he's just a pretty good unit.

So, to answer your question, we have a unit who starts good and stay decent until the end, and who occupy a niche for quite some time, and who doesn't need any stat booster to be usefull versus a unit who is rapidly overwhelmed by the other units who start with him, and who absolutely needs stats booster to be relevant.

Does Jeigan have Canto ? I didn't played this game a lot, so I don't really remember...

Sure Oyfaye isn't Seth, but it's a solid unit and have more reason to be used than Jeigan. (Besides, he doesn't have any deployment cost.)

Edited August 11, 2013 by TendaSlimeKnight Ikkar

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Jeigan has more reason to be used than Oifaye

Because without Oifaye, I still have Inheritance Seliph, Inheritance Leif who will eventually be a method of transportation that is superior to being Mounted, and Ares. And thats scrapping the bottom of the barrel because we also have Delmud right from the start

Meanwhile without Jeigan, thats one less beastkiller I have to snipe with, and fuck playing Shadow Dragon without Beastkiller.

Also Hardin can't fly before like 9 chapters

And Marcus in FE6 is, honestly one of few Jeigan who is done right, the other being Frederick

Edited August 11, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[SB.]

a lot of fe11's maps aren't really too badly effected by if you're mounted or flying, to be quite honest.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

DK gives +2 Defense if im not mistaken

[Espinosa]

Paladin's sword rank / invulnerability to magic can be a selling point though.

[Ϲharlie]

Kain and Abel completely surpass jeigan with a few levels in.

Not really. Cain and Abel will maybe match up with Jeigan by the time they hit level five or six, but they won't completely surpass him until around level 10. That's more than just a few levels.

Arran have to complete with 3 Cavaliers, and then Sirius comes a few time later, and beats him at everything. At least in FE12 (and maybe FE11), he can be reclassed into DracoKnight, and kill these damn Thief early on.

So what if he has to "compete" with three cavaliers? Arran is quite a bit stronger than the three cavs, and it will take a good amount of time for them to equal him, let alone surpass him. Rody for example has to gain a good ten levels or so before he even begins to compare to Arran and has to promote to actually surpass him. And so what if Sirius is better than Arran? Arran is still likely to be one of the stronger characters available at the time Sirius joins.

He learns two of the most usefull skill (Especially Pursuit).

Oifaye has pursuit and critical. Jeigan, Arran, and Marcus essentially have these skills as well by virtue of their games' mechanics.

[Tamanoir]

Not really. Cain and Abel will maybe match up with Jeigan by the time they hit level five or six, but they won't completely surpass him until around level 10. That's more than just a few levels.

1.So what if he has to "compete" with three cavaliers? Arran is quite a bit stronger than the three cavs, and it will take a good amount of time for them to equal him, let alone surpass him. Rody for example has to gain a good ten levels or so before he even begins to compare to Arran and has to promote to actually surpass him. And so what if Sirius is better than Arran? Arran is still likely to be one of the stronger characters available at the time Sirius joins.

2.Oifaye has pursuit and critical. Jeigan, Arran, and Marcus essentially have these skills as well by virtue of their games' mechanics.

1.Yeah, but in the long run Abel and Cain will be better, and you also have them for the start, so why use a unit that will become irrelevant, if some investment gives you better units in the long terms. Besides they are good units right from the bat. If they needed tons of babying to be usefull, thenn yes. Here just use Abel and Cain. FE11/12 adds the DracoKnight Reclass, and Weapon Rank is more relevant.

2. Yes, but everyone else have it, so this is irrelevant.

1.Jeigan has more reason to be used than Oifaye

Because without Oifaye, I still have Inheritance Seliph, Inheritance Leif who will eventually be a method of transportation that is superior to being Mounted, and Ares. And thats scrapping the bottom of the barrel because we also have Delmud right from the start

Meanwhile without Jeigan, thats one less beastkiller I have to snipe with, and fuck playing Shadow Dragon without Beastkiller.

.Also Hardin can't fly before like 9 chapters

2.And Marcus in FE6 is, honestly one of few Jeigan who is done right, the other being Frederick

1. Oyfaye doesn't need anything to be a decent unit. He needs helps to be a great units. And he is always relevant. You don't lose anything by using him (See Place cost. Oyfaye is the only one without that)

Oyfaye have the Armor Cutter, which can be your only option to defeat the first boss. And Oyfaye doesn't "steal" a place or a lot of experience.

You also forgot to menytion Finn, who is at least as usefull, or even more (Because Lief and Nanna can hardly survives without him...)

2. I actually agree with that.

Though FE7!Marcus is pretty good either.

Fe7!Marcus is the closest thing to Oyfaye actually. A good/great unit who becomes just decent at nthe end.

Also, if your argument to prove that Jeigan is better than Oyfaye is that he needs stat booster, then it's extremely flawed, because these statbooster could be used by a better unit. The first Jeigan doesn't even have the excuse of Weapon Rank.

What uses does Jeigan have that Abel and Cain can't do (Excepted Draco Knight in FE11/12. I thought we talked about FE1/3 here) ?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

EDIT and accidental double post

Edited August 11, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

1. Oyfaye doesn't need anything to be a decent unit. He needs helps to be a great units. And he is always relevant. You don't lose anything by using him (See Place cost. Oyfaye is the only one without that)

Lets use this with Jeigan

Jeigan does not need anything to be a decent unit, because 75% of the cast is worse than him.

And he is always relevant. Because 10 mov and base that enough to carry him for 90% of the game

You don't lose anything by using Jeigan. Just look at the number of deploy slot of this game AND the exp rate of the game.

Oyfaye have the Armor Cutter, which can be your only option to defeat the first boss. And Oyfaye doesn't "steal" a place or a lot of experience.

What unit is Jeigan stealing the place from? These "better units" take like 3 - 4 slot out of bazillion. Jeigan, in fact steal LESS exp than most unit in the game who need to grow just to match him like.... several 10+ chapters later in place of the better units.

You also forgot to menytion Finn, who is at least as usefull, or even more (Because Lief and Nanna can hardly survives without him...)

I always consider Finn a Jeigan, and Leif as a "pseudo Jeigan" in his own game, but this one has different context and need different discussion

Also, if your argument to prove that Jeigan is better than Oyfaye is that he needs stat booster, then it's extremely flawed, because these statbooster could be used by a better unit. The first Jeigan doesn't even have the excuse of Weapon Rank.

He have movement excuse. And "look at how shitty everyone else is" excuse. As for Statsboosters, a statsboosters Jeigan does NOT need training and waiting for the promo Item just to be relevant for a small amount of chapters. So we can use those exp for unit who put those exp to better use, and when he finally get these booster, he match the performance of the higher up

Also theres tons of money in FE1. In comparison, Oifaye can only get +5 stats, and to get those he stole this resource from unit who put it to better use

Not like it matter because Marth is better than them but WE

Edited August 11, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Baldrick]

But Oifaye doesn't need statboosters to function. He would like a skill ring to max out his Critical chance, but those are virtually uncontested. He does need a Hero Sword, but with Pursuit/Critical/horse and Goldilocks strength, he uses it better than anyone else bar Seliph.

The answer to the OP is this. Oifaye has a genuine niche; he dominates for the first third of his run, and even after Seliph and Leaf promote and you get all the Crusader weapons and he's badly outclassed, he can chip in with some unique contribution. Jeigan has a couple of chapters max of domination, the exp formula being what it is, and has absolutely nothing to distinguish himself except his move; and it's not that useful, since there's no rescuing and only Marth can visit villages.

Sure, you can stuff him full of statboosters an entire five chapters before the end of the game, but it's about as good an indication of his true value as it is to arena abuse Est 15 levels in her joining chapter. You can do that with literally anyone else, and he's among the more expensive, if you're wanting to pimp out as many units as possible without grinding.

[CT075]

1.Yeah, but in the long run Abel and Cain will be better, and you also have them for the start, so why use a unit that will become irrelevant, if some investment gives you better units in the long terms. Besides they are good units right from the bat. If they needed tons of babying to be usefull, thenn yes. Here just use Abel and Cain. FE11/12 adds the DracoKnight Reclass, and Weapon Rank is more relevant.

it doesn't work that way

in the long run abel and cain being better is irrelevant because it's overkill (having 45 attack vs 30 attack doesn't mean anything if the enemy still dies), so what matters is the point when jeigan is stronger than the two of them (as they never really "surpass" him in the sense i just explained)

2. Yes, but everyone else have it, so this is irrelevant.

so why bring it up???

1. Oyfaye doesn't need anything to be a decent unit. He needs helps to be a great units. And he is always relevant. You don't lose anything by using him (See Place cost. Oyfaye is the only one without that

he kind of isn't

not when you have the likes of aless and serlis (there's also holsety!arthur and/or sety and/or shanan but they either potentially don't exist or are footlocked)

Oyfaye have the Armor Cutter, which can be your only option to defeat the first boss. And Oyfaye doesn't "steal" a place or a lot of experience.

ha ha base serlis can kill the boss with anything other than the slim sword (and sigurd will have passed down something unless you're deliberately being an idiot with his items)

You also forgot to menytion Finn, who is at least as usefull, or even more (Because Lief and Nanna can hardly survives without him...)

you are bad at this game

send fee down to them

Though FE7!Marcus is pretty good either.

Fe7!Marcus is the closest thing to Oyfaye actually. A good/great unit who becomes just decent at nthe end.

ha ha ha except marcus still breaks the game

Also, if your argument to prove that Jeigan is better than Oyfaye is that he needs stat booster, then it's extremely flawed, because these statbooster could be used by a better unit.

who else would use them better? by your own argument, this supposed better unit naturally catch up to him as it stands, and i've demonstrated that making them stronger is a waste of the resource (this is not a game where overkill is rewarded)

so why not give it to jeigan?

What uses does Jeigan have that Abel and Cain can't do (Excepted Draco Knight in FE11/12. I thought we talked about FE1/3 here) ?

killing everything in the first few chapters before abel and cain get strong Edited August 12, 2013 by CT075

[Rehab]

I just think it's kinda funny that if you copied and pasted Oyf, bases and growths and all, into any other game in the series, and put him up against any early-game prepromote, at base he would feed every one of them through a fucking shredder, bar none. And even Seth, Titania and Fred would need hella levels to overtake him, on average. Like, "the game is probably close to over by this point" kinda levels.

fe4, man

[The Void]

2. I actually agree with that.

Though FE7!Marcus is pretty good either.

Fe7!Marcus is the closest thing to Oyfaye actually. A good/great unit who becomes just decent at nthe end.

Except Marcus is a better unit than the majority of the cast.

[Refa]

I just think it's kinda funny that if you copied and pasted Oyf, bases and growths and all, into any other game in the series, and put him up against any early-game prepromote, at base he would feed every one of them through a fucking shredder, bar none. And even Seth, Titania and Fred would need hella levels to overtake him, on average. Like, "the game is probably close to over by this point" kinda levels.

fe4, man

fun fact, i put oifaye's stats onto seth in fe8 once, it was ridiculous.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

How ridiculous?

EDIT: HORY SHIET

Edited August 12, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[The Void]

Honestly, wouldn't Dagdar from Thracia 776 be the better benchmark for a "good" Jagen than Oifey?

If he counts.

Edited August 12, 2013 by The Void

[Jedi]

Honestly, wouldn't Dagdar from Thracia 776 be the better benchmark for a "good" Jagen than Oifey?

If he counts.

Considering he can wreck almost the entire game at base lol. A Dagdar doesn't roll off the tongue as easily though.

Him counting, I'd count him as one but I dno bout the rest of everyone here.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Folgore Red II

[shadykid]

pfft, the only reason Oifey's stats are so high relative to FE7-9 is because of the inheritance stuff making the children OP as hell

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Oifey inherits stats from Jeigan is my headcanon!

[Refa]

Dagda is as much of a Jeigan as Wendell is. :\

[Baldrick]

killing everything in the first few chapters before abel and cain get strong

Pirates:

18 HP, 5 str, 1 skl, 6 spd, 4 def, iron axes, 12 atk/0 AS

Jeigan does 11x2 damage

Cain does 11x2 damage

Abel does 10x2 damage

Thief:

16 HP, 3 str, 1 skl, 9 spd, 2 def, iron sword, 8 atk/7 AS

Jeigan has ORKO with Silver Lance, but so does Sheeda

Hunter:

18 HP, 6 str, 1 skl, 5 spd, 3 def, iron bow, 10 atk/4 AS

Jeigan does 9x2 damage, 11 with Javelin

Abel does 8x2 damage, 10 with Javelin

Cain does 12 damage, 11 with Javelin

Gazzack [boss]:

24 HP, 7 pow, 3 skl, 8 spd, 6 def, steel axe, 16 atk/0 AS

Again, Silver Lance OHKO, but chip damage and ganging up do exist.

Cavs:

16 HP, 5 str, 2 skl, 6 spd, 7 def, iron lance, 13 atk/0 AS

Jeigan does 8x2 damage

Cain does 8

Abel does 7x2

Gomez [boss]:

27 HP, 8 str, 4 skl, 9 AS, 7 def, hand axe, 13 atk/0 AS

8x2 (12x2 if you waste Silver Lance)

5x2 at base

6x2 at base

Haiman [boss]:

27 HP, 8 str, 4 skl, 9 AS, 7 def, hand axe, 13 atk/1 AS

8x2 (12x2 if you waste Silver Lance)

5x2 at base

3x2 at base

What is too strong for Cain/Abel:

The thief if Sheeda doesn't get it

The hunters/cavs and Gazzack if you must kill them in one round

That's 9 enemies only he can kill in 3 chapters. 8 of them are comfortably 2R/3HKO'd by the cavs and/or the foot units, so hardly an issue unless you're doing a draft or strict LTC. Marcus he ain't.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I should note that from Sheeda, Jeigan, Cain, and Abel who get the easiest kill in CH1 is Sheeda because of the AI

[Refa]

I should note that from Sheeda, Jeigan, Cain, and Abel who get the easiest kill in CH1 is Sheeda because of the AI

Which is kind of hilarious because in FE11, the enemies go out of their way NOT to attack Sheeda. Think IS learnt their lesson?

Edited August 12, 2013 by Refa