PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Czar_Yoshi]

There's generally never any options in Awakening that are strictly superior, as everything has at least some merits, but Chrom x Sumia generally has a lot better selling points than Chrom x Olivia.

[Ownagepuffs]

I think the only time pairings can be strictly better is in the event of 100% class overlap. Like Gregor!Inigo vs Ricken!Inigo or something.

Chrom x Olivia is a good pairing that completely wastes Chrom's potential. Lucina also gets few things of value as she already has 75 Speed Sniper from Sumia (or in Airship's case, 60 Spd Great lord with no tonics or rallies or DLC). She has no need for Myrmidon tree and Inigo has no need for RKF. Inigo also gets the same classes from Stahl and 1 more from Ricken.

I talk down to Chrom x Olivia a lot but it was once popular for a reason. The resulting children are good, but can get the same tools elsewhere with less cost.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Is Morgan better of having Nowi, Nah, or Tiki as his mother as far as being a manakete goes?

Missed this, sorry. You can't get a male Manakete (assume you meant her mother), but Morgan will ultimately fare the best with Nah. The improvement to Nah from having Avatar as a father generally outweighs the extra mods on a 3rd gen Manakete Morgan though, so Nowi is usually better all told (and also a great ingame pairing). Both of them make undesirable pairings for Avatar though. Tiki is pretty bad all around.

I think the only time pairings can be strictly better is in the event of 100% class overlap. Like Gregor!Inigo vs Ricken!Inigo or something.

Gregor!Inigo has +2 Str/Skl/Def on Ricken. Skill wise he's bad, but it's not a complete eclipse of Gregor.

[DukeC]

Yeah, meant her.

I didn't know Tiki was bad. As far as passing down mods or just generally not worth the investment like Kellam/Donnell?

Another question. How much strength can Morgan end up with a +STR avatar depending on the pairing? Same for a +MAG avatar as well please?

Edited February 25, 2015 by DukeC

[Shadow Mir]

Another question. Ho)w much strength can Morgan end up with a +STR avatar depending on the pairing? Same for a +MAG avatar as well please?

+11 for STR (would need Vaike!Gerome), +10 for MAG (needs Ricken!Laurent or Ricken!Noire).

Edited February 25, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[xdxturx]

hmmm so what is the most optimized paring for parents then.... because i see so much conflicting stuff ive read a good bit of the end pages here and i see so much of "this and that" anyone feel like posting their optimized pair?

[Czar_Yoshi]

I didn't know Tiki was bad. As far as passing down mods or just generally not worth the investment like Kellam/Donnell?

Ingame, she comes late with a really hard Paralogue. Postgame, her mods are pretty lackluster and her class set for leading Avatar is atrocious. I'd go as far as to say she's Avatar's worst wife postgame.

Kellam and Donnel aren't worth investment ingame.

hmmm so what is the most optimized paring for parents then.... because i see so much conflicting stuff ive read a good bit of the end pages here and i see so much of "this and that" anyone feel like posting their optimized pair?

There's no One Team that's better than the rest, and if there were it would have been found and settled long ago. That said, my current team:

Chrom x Sumia

Sumia!Lucina x Libra!Owain

Henry!Inigo x Fred!Noire-B

Gaius!Kjelle-B x Vaike!Yarne

Chrom!Cynthia x +Skl/-Def Avatar-M

Lon'qu!Brady x Stahl!Nah

Virion!Severa x Gregor!Laurent

Cynthia!Morgan x Ricken!Gerome

DLC Katarina, Palla, Katria, Est

It's still a work in progress and I haven't made it yet. There are a few things I'd really love to still fit in that just aren't happening, but I've spent so long tweaking stats already that I don't think I can beat its current levels of power, versatility and aesthetics by anything more than finding new boss kill setups- the pairings themselves are pretty much set in stone at this point.

[AllTheRage]

Is there any merits to cordileaxMU male or is he better used else where.

[Cat1803]

Is there any merits to cordileaxMU male or is he better used else where.

Cordelia is one of Male Avatar's best first-gen wives - she's got Galeforce, a proc (Vengeance), and decent mods to boot - so much so that Cordelia!Morgan's mods are fairly competent compared to other second gen Morgans. Male Avatar really wants to be able to support a wife competent in combat, and Cordelia fits the bill here. Other options include Aversa and Sumia, but Cynthia wants Aether more than she wants Avatar as a parent, in general. Cordelia and Male Avatar is also a really strong in-game pairing, if that matters to you.

It's generally considered best for Male Avatar to marry second gen (especially Lucina because Dual Strike+ in addition to Aether Morgan), but if you're set on first gen, Cordelia is one of his best options. That being said, you'd have to decide which second gen female to leave single.

(CordeliaxMale Avatar happens to be one of my favorite gameplay-oriented pairings - having two Avatar-fathered children allows for two Ignis units, which is something that I like as I find the proc superior to all other non-Aether procs, but it's a trade-off for the reasons stated above.)

Edited February 26, 2015 by Cat1803

[rickheg]

Thanks to doing a bit of research, I've decided on the following for my first gen pairings;

Chrom x Sumia
Vaike x Cherche
Ricken x Lissa
Virion x Miriel
Donnel x Sully
Henry x Maribelle
Libra x Olivia
Lon'qu x Cordelia
Gaius x Tharja
Gregor x Panne
Kellam x Nowi

FeMU x Owain

My main question is which skills should I look to pass down? Chrom's are obvious, and I get that anyone who has Dark Flier should pass down Galeforce. But what about everyone else? I'm not really sure what skills I should have before I start recruiting the second generation.

[Kye]

Ingame, she comes late with a really hard Paralogue. Postgame, her mods are pretty lackluster and her class set for leading Avatar is atrocious. I'd go as far as to say she's Avatar's worst wife postgame.

Kellam and Donnel aren't worth investment ingame.

There's no One Team that's better than the rest, and if there were it would have been found and settled long ago. That said, my current team:

Chrom x Sumia

Sumia!Lucina x Libra!Owain

Henry!Inigo x Fred!Noire-B

Gaius!Kjelle-B x Vaike!Yarne

Chrom!Cynthia x +Skl/-Def Avatar-M

Lon'qu!Brady x Stahl!Nah

Virion!Severa x Gregor!Laurent

Cynthia!Morgan x Ricken!Gerome

DLC Katarina, Palla, Katria, Est

It's still a work in progress and I haven't made it yet. There are a few things I'd really love to still fit in that just aren't happening, but I've spent so long tweaking stats already that I don't think I can beat its current levels of power, versatility and aesthetics by anything more than finding new boss kill setups- the pairings themselves are pretty much set in stone at this point.

Oh mah Gerd, I've never considered Virion as Sev's father. Wouldn't that result in one of the best Snipers in the game, post-grind? Holy shit. Access to Armsthrift, Sol, Bowfaire, Galeforce, Vengeance, ALL the Breakers. Even her base-max (pre-LB) stats are awesome: 43/30/53/45/44/39/31. Paired up with a Gregor!Laurent, she'd be pretty-fucking boss. Plus, a Sniper still fits in with her background as a Merc. Efficiency, and aesthetics/fluff!

Edited February 26, 2015 by Kye

[Czar_Yoshi]

My main question is which skills should I look to pass down? Chrom's are obvious, and I get that anyone who has Dark Flier should pass down Galeforce. But what about everyone else? I'm not really sure what skills I should have before I start recruiting the second generation.

Gaius will want to pass down Sol, Panne one of Wyvern's skills, Cherche and Miriel DSp+, and Donnel Underdog. Everything else doesn't matter.

Efficiency, and aesthetics/fluff!

Getting Virion!Severa in is definitely one of the highlights of that team. Her flagship set (which she shares with Lon'qu!Severa, any Morgan-F with 5+ Spd and a modified version with Gaius!Kjelle) is Wyvern Lord (LB/GF/LF/All+2/Vengeance), which with a +Hit Berserker support (Laurent does this) can double anything in Apo and hits so hard DSes don't even matter outside of a few bosses. She's also super versatile and has everything needed to lead in a Sage x DF set (Laurent supports this too), and her Sniper has excellent 100% DS potential, which she can reach with Laurent (the point of this team, actually). She's also got a good compliment of non-Apo postgame classes, so yeah she's incredible. Her hair looks good too.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Kye]

Let's be realistic Czar, the hair is all that matters.

I think I'll try her out as a Sniper, paired with Laurent in my current Looney playthrough. I just like that she's so versatile with this parentage/pairing set-up, that you can quite literally re-class her into anything you want on-the-fly as long as you have all the skills/weapons/gear you need. WL, Sniper, DF, and dat hair. I am a sucker for on-the-fly versatility.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Kye

[astrophys]

Cordelia is one of Male Avatar's best first-gen wives - she's got Galeforce, a proc (Vengeance), and decent mods to boot - so much so that Cordelia!Morgan's mods are fairly competent compared to other second gen Morgans. Male Avatar really wants to be able to support a wife competent in combat, and Cordelia fits the bill here. Other options include Aversa and Sumia, but Cynthia wants Aether more than she wants Avatar as a parent, in general. Cordelia and Male Avatar is also a really strong in-game pairing, if that matters to you.

It's generally considered best for Male Avatar to marry second gen (especially Lucina because Dual Strike+ in addition to Aether Morgan), but if you're set on first gen, Cordelia is one of his best options. That being said, you'd have to decide which second gen female to leave single.

(CordeliaxMale Avatar happens to be one of my favorite gameplay-oriented pairings - having two Avatar-fathered children allows for two Ignis units, which is something that I like as I find the proc superior to all other non-Aether procs, but it's a trade-off for the reasons stated above.)

Yes, I'll basically agree with a lot of this. But I'll make a few comments (some agreeing, some dissenting, and some just with additional information).

Sumia is one of the other competent first gen wives, but another key consideration is that both she and Chrom have very limited marriage options. As such, solving their limited options this way works very well. And one might want to do Chrom x Sumia anyways for skillful and fast (+5 speed) Lucina who can do well at physical or magic (neither has negative mods and both offer weapon fairs).

As such, out of the Sumia/Cordelia/Aversa trio of 1st gen wives with Galeforce and one of the "good" proc skills (i.e. Luna/Vengeance) I'd typically rule out Avatar x Sumia in favor of Chrom x Sumia.

Aversa is admittedly powerful in magic and has her near-unique Shadowgift, but she joins really late. As such, she has little main-game utilily, in the sense that you must deprive your Avatar from an S-rank for the first 25 chapters of the game at least. Even Cordelia (who joins later than Sumia) only forces you to wait until at least Chapter 7, although unless you're grinding you won't be married to her until several chapters have passed. Still, its a huge difference in availability.

Aether is a bit overrated because while it does superior damage when it triggers, it tends to be unreliable (half the rate of Ignis/Luna and a quarter of Vengeance prior to Vengeance capping out at 100%). That and typically an Ignis/Luna proc will ensure a kill anyways, meaning that the Aether is rendered flashy/cool but unreliable overkill. Aether still has its uses (stacked with Luna), but it isn't really that practical in a general situation.

ADDENDUM: For Avatar children I'd rather use Ignis and Luna together anyways than Aether and Luna for the higher combined activation rates; while Ignis can be a better skill than Luna at maxed stats, the difference isn't that huge.

Also, while Avatar appreciates getting 100% DS with Lucina, I'd imagine that Lucina herself would be better served by marrying one of the Galeforce males (Inigo/Brady/Owain) such that she could leverage her 100% DS a total of THREE times per turn. The Avatar limits her to two. Although this can still be okay I suppose if running a VVDS build on the Avatar. But Inigo/Owain can also do that if they have the right fathers for it.

Ignis is superior to Luna in most cases if you've maxed out your stats and are running full rallies and Limit Breaker from the DLC. Even for cases like -STR Sage, funnily enough. Rallies/Limit Breaker/generic pair-up/tonics ensure +25 to both attacking stats at a minimum, so even your weakest attacking stat on the Avatar will be at least 52 (30-3+25) for most classes except things like Great Knight. Compared to Secret Route Apotheosis enemy resistances it actually outdoes Luna for a large amount of them.

That said, Vengeance gives an even better boost and is 100% accurate if you take the care to set it up and to ensure you don't get killed at low HP (i.e. don't get hit/kill the enemy before they can do that).

So if you manage Vengeance well it can be the best proc situationally. Ignis is the best proc that doesn't require careful management.

And yes, marrying 1st gen does allow for one extra Ignis user.

Edited February 26, 2015 by astrophys

[serpentskirt]

Hey guys.

I've arrived directly from Aversa tanking sorcerers era so it's quite hilarious to see all them snipers running around and Virion being the top dad, lol.

I'm going to roll a new team so I would like to ask about trending stuff. I've lurked a bit around and have seen quite a lot of dual strike discussions with all the snipers, assassins and falcons. Are there any other noteworthy class combinations?

I do know and realize that I can beat apo/game/whatever with almost anything so let's pretend I've been bit by a perfectionist and want to make a really outstanding team. What would be my main goals (like, getting all pairs with gale and 160 skill, or, dunno, some set in stone marriages to build rest around)? Should I bother with classes other than already mentioned?

I've already played this game for fun, so this time it will be all around numbers. I do have access to all DLC.

Thanks in advance.

[Ownagepuffs]

@serpentskirt

Holy cow it's a time traveler. you must remember when Virion was the worst, most worthless father. Anyway...

http://serenesforest...87#entry3589895

That's a list of cookie cutter general purpose pairings. If you have any questions on why who goes where, just ask.

[serpentskirt]

@Ownagepuffs

I must admit I've enjoyed a lot your conversations with Soryuju32 on GFs.

Thanks for the list. I suppose my main trouble now it's not knowing what goes well with what in terms of classes. I do understand that I want a gale for the lead unit and raw power for the support, that's not a problem. But I'm totally lost at what classes are being worth to look at. Like, should I bother with valkyries and magic in general. (e.g. Czar team has no magic users).

Am I right that I'm either building perfect DS or focus on procs? Is tanking viable or it's all about galeforcing bad guys to the ground and running before they'll start punching you?

[Vascela]

The cap difference between Sage and Sniper is 5 Skl (and Valk cap is 5 lower than Sage), which is worth considering if you want to maximize 100% DS. But then you also consider Sage giving Skl on pair up, but not Valk.

Doesn't stop you from using DS+ if you wanted to include at least 1x Magic.

If you are going to stack procs, it's almost hypocritical to want consistent Dual Strikes. I want to be consistent.... but not THAT consistent doesn't make much sense to me (although it might make sense to you).

[serpentskirt]

@Vascela

I assume that was for me.

From builds I've seen it seems that it's just not possible to fit proc among all these all stats and defenders, correct?

So, as long as I hit skill 160/speed 75 and happy with bonuses classes are providing each other I'm free to use any class? No hidden stuff like "axes suck"?

Edited February 26, 2015 by serpentskirt

[Vascela]

If you care about consistency, then you either don't run a proc or your run vengeance. It's just a matter of control. If you want 100% DS, then as long as you hit the total skill minimum, you should be happy. On the same note, 75 Spd is only helpful in specific instances. If you neglect 75 Spd, it just means you aren't doubling the specific target. Having less speed isn't a death sentence to consistency, but running Aether/Luna/Ignis/Astra is. This is because if you don't hit the 75 Spd minimum, it doesn't change the enemy layout. Every single time you play the map, you won't double the specific target.

The only "hidden" things to note are that Braves and Long Bows eclipse weapon choice. So if you wanted to use a brave axe, it means you are in an axe class... which means you are locked to an axe class skill cap. Which can be both good and bad depending on the classes you want. If you wanted to run a berserker, then you have to work around its caps.

[Ownagepuffs]

@Ownagepuffs

I must admit I've enjoyed a lot your conversations with Soryuju32 on GFs.

Thanks for the list. I suppose my main trouble now it's not knowing what goes well with what in terms of classes. I do understand that I want a gale for the lead unit and raw power for the support, that's not a problem. But I'm totally lost at what classes are being worth to look at. Like, should I bother with valkyries and magic in general. (e.g. Czar team has no magic users).

Am I right that I'm either building perfect DS or focus on procs? Is tanking viable or it's all about galeforcing bad guys to the ground and running before they'll start punching you?

Soryuju32 wow that's a name I haven't heard in a while. Had lots of fun with Bravely Default.

Vascela went and covered most things so there's not much to say on my part. I'm only replying because it's cool that you were around while I was on the BD boards.

The general purpose pairings I posted are just that, safety/general purpose. They are run of the mill pairings that get the job done.

In general, physical class work with physical classes and magical classes work with magical classes. There are a few exceptions but you don't have to worry about them.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Hey guys.

I've arrived directly from Aversa tanking sorcerers era so it's quite hilarious to see all them snipers running around and Virion being the top dad, lol.

Welcome to the present!

So there are several things you'll want to watch for when building a team: most of a team's purposes fall into ingame, postgame, and Apo. Going primarily for Apo is fine, but it never hurts to make sure your team isn't only good there, or to avoid pairings you know you don't like (most of us here avoid Stahl!Severa because her hair is hideous even though she's got a good skillset and a nice kit of ending classes, for example). I'll cover what's needed to perform at optimal capacity in Apo:

-A good spouse who matches them well. This is the most important of all, given the potency of pairup- and S supports are especially emphasized given that they provide an extra 10% DS, taking a typical DS rate from 85% to 95%. In general when picking spouses, make sure that together the team has at least one GF unit, one 8 Mov unit (they can be the same, though 8 mov is better on the female), and they can form good class combinations. That brings us to...

-A good ending class. This is still very important, as some classes have huge differences in performance, but you can get away with running more "interesting" B tier classes just fine if you're willing to sacrifice a lot of overkill. In general, Sage, Sniper and Berserker are the top of the top, with Assassins and Dark Fliers right behind. Heroes and Paladins are nice too, and in certain combinations Wyvern Lords can be devastating. Below them are the likes of Dark Knight, Bow Knight, Valkyrie, Warrior, General, Dread Fighter and Bride which have less emphasized perks but can still contribute handily if you play them to their strengths. Then there are the scrubs which you really should never be using, such as War Monk, Sorcerer and Griffon Rider, who are directly outclassed by a good deal of stuff. A unit only needs one good ending class to contribute well, but the more they have the more sets they can run and the funner they will be to use on repeat runs. Typically good combinations include Wyvern Lord x Berserker, Sniper x Sage/Hero/Assassin/Berserker, Sage x Dark Flier, and so on.

-Good skills for their role. Typically, there are four roles children play in Apo: female lead, female support, male lead and male hard support. Female lead is the most common role, and will generally fit the pattern of either LB/GF/Faire/proc/proc (procs being Luna/Ignis and Astra/Ignis/Aether, replacing Faire with DSt+ if Lucina) or LB/GF/Faire/All+2/Vengeance (mostly seen on Severa). Female supports, typically Nah and some Noires, lack GF and can run whatever they want instead- LB and a Faire are given, a proc (Luna/Vengeance) usually helps and some utility skills on top of that- Auras like Anathema are good, as is Deliverer. Male leads (Owain/Brady/Inigo/Morgan-M) always run a set of LB/GF/Agg/Faire/proc, and can expect to get one kill leading and one or two supporting. Male hard supports (Yarne/Gerome/Laurent) never lead, and use LB/Agg/Faire as a base, with some combination of All+2, Atk+2, Hit+20, etc in the last two spaces).

-Good mods for their classes. All classes like high Skl/Spd/Atk, while nobody cares too much about alternate Atk, Lck, Def and Res. Having generally good stats is good, but more important is...

-Hitting thresholds. There are a good few of these in Apo that are very useful to hit: 220 Hit gives you 100% listed on all non-Boss enemies, and 75 Spd allows you to double everything, which is usually massive overkill but comes in handy if you want to kill bosses in lower-tier classes or need to compensate for low Hit/DS rates. 160 combined Skl also gives 100% DS rate, which when combined with perfect Hit and either no procs or Vengeance gives you battles with completely reliable outcomes. These aren't necessary but can be very useful for getting rid of scary bosses safely and efficiently if you're not confident in doing so otherwise.

Those are the general goals of an Apo team: high Mov/Atk with good class synergy and decent reliability. Anyway, here are a few especially notable sets that several of the better units can pull off:

Lon'qu/Virion!Severa@Wyvern with All+2 and a Berserker support hit 75 Spd.

Lon'qu!Severa@Hero with All+2 hits 75 Spd with anything, usually a Sniper or Warrior.

Stahl/Virion!Yarne@Berserker has a good Hit potential and can support Lucina, Severa or Kjelle well in any physical set.

The same Yarnes also have a very potent support Sniper, reaching 100% DS without too much dedicated investment. Very good with Severa@Hero.

Any Lucina (but especially Sumia)@Sniper can get guaranteed DSes from anything on a Longbow. Coming from a Sage or Berserker, this is unstoppable.

Gaius!Kjelle@Paladin without All+2 or Wyvern with All+2 and a Berserker support in both cases hits 75 Spd.

[serpentskirt]

Now that's one hell of an answer, covers almost all the stuff. Thanks a lot!

I've been looking at the weapons and found Gale's MT of 4 kinda meh compared to the rest of the braves. But does it actually matter for a lead unit? I've got the impression that most damage will arrive from dual strikes not being affected by pavise+, so as long as lead has any brave it's okay, correct? I thought that staying out of triangle with gale might be a good idea.

Edited February 27, 2015 by serpentskirt

[astrophys]

Things tend to have lower resistances than defenses.

Even for the cases where this is NOT true, Celica's Gale STILL has the advantage of positioning for being able to attack from 1 OR 2 spaces; Brave Axes/Lances/Swords are locked to 1 range and Brave Bow is locked to 2 spaces.

Waste is the only other 1-2 Range brave effect available, but while it has much higher base might than Celica's Gale it has FAR worse accuracy.

Then you're right, there's also the unaffected by the triangle aspect for CG and that most of your damage is from dual strikes.

[Czar_Yoshi]

CG with a 5/15 forge and WRB has 11 mt and 100 Hit, which isn't that bad.Sages also have more Mag than pretty much any physical lead class's Str by a fairly long shot (only Wyvern competes).

Edited February 27, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi