If nothing else, the major antagonists should actually be effective.

[Saladus]

And what do any of the Grimleal get out of helping Grima?

[Ike's True Descendant]

Even if religion is the opiate of the masses, I seriously doubt anyone would pick doomsday cult over crappy monarch.

Oh, really, I would think a cult would be a more effective way to manipulate people to join your cause of destorying the world. If you truly got the people to belive that your ideas were the only way to save mankind, then you could control their actions and ideas, and could use them as pawns for your own means. Reglion is a strong tool to control people. If people truly belive in something they will do some unbeliveable things if they think it will help their reglion.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Ike's True Descendant

[Saladus]

Oh, really, I would think a cult would be a more effective way to manipulate people to join your cause of destorying the world.

''Help a dragon destroy humanity so you'll be eaten''

If you truly got the people to belive that your ideas were the only way to save mankind, then you could control their actions and ideas, and could use them as pawns for your own means.

And what do they get out of helping you?

Reglion is a strong tool to control people.

No more than territory or gold. ''Religion'' isn't really a thing.

If people truly belive in something they will do some unbeliveable things if they think it will help their reglion.

Sure, Richard Dawkins.

[Baldrick]

Robin:
Your people were cowed by your political might, but the temples offered solace...

The implication is solace from Gangrel's rule.

Aversa
The king's demise threw Plegia into chaos. It drove the people to Grima...

If Gangrel's rule was so bad, why did his death throw Plegia into chaos? It wasn't a power vacuum because Aversa/Validar were there. How exactly did they "use" the chaos? Wouldn't it have been simpler to be even crueler to make more people take solace in religion?

By attempting to have Aversa explain it, it only raises more questions and contradicts the most logical explanation.

[arvilino]

The implication is solace from Gangrel's rule.

If Gangrel's rule was so bad, why did his death throw Plegia into chaos? It wasn't a power vacuum because Aversa/Validar were there. How exactly did they "use" the chaos? Wouldn't it have been simpler to be even crueler to make more people take solace in religion?

By attempting to have Aversa explain it, it only raises more questions and contradicts the most logical explanation.

The leader of the Grimleal becoming king and being even crueler than Gangrel would convince people to Grimleal where he's their religious leader to escape his cruel political rule? The leader of the sect that granted solace during Gangrel's rule becoming king and providing order would drive people towards it being the "best choice"(although it was never a real choice, though making it appear like a choice when it isn't is usually the most effective way to grow any religion).

I think you need to reconsider what you actually think is an logical explanation. Would turning to a religion where a Pope is the highest authority be an escape from a cruel political rule where a Pope is the highest authority? It'd be escaping towards the oppressor and choosing to give him even more control it just wouldn't work unless he was forcing people to join the religion and that wouldn't be solace.

The explanation the game gives makes sense and is reasonable, people joined the religion for the solace and order. Also while not aimed at you I think some posters should stop posting as if most Plegians joined specifically to revive Grima.

Robin:

And what did the people of Plegia really think of the faith?

Gangrel:

Think? Ha! They DIDN'T think! Between my iron-fisted rule and Aversa's inquisitions, they had no choice about it. ... But as I said, it was a cruel time.

[Baldrick]

If they realised their new king was the leader of the Grimleal. From the POV of an average joe Plegian who has been kept under a tyrant's thumb, that's a big if. Chrom, the leader of Ylisse, didn't even know Validar's face until they met in chapter 13, so it's probable he keeps a low profile. Furthermore, they didn't seem to mind that Gangrel's right-hand woman was also Validar's right-hand woman.

If Plegia was no longer a dictatorship, there'd be no reason to find solace in the religion any more. Chalard calls Grima is a god of annihilation, and Mustafa says Plegians were touched by Emmeryn's martyrdom, so it's likely they'd flock towards the Ylisseans who killed the king who was abusing them. At least, it'd be harder to convince them to sacrifice themselves to the fell dragon if they have a happy life (Aversa's speech implies they need to be willing. If they didn't, then driving the people to worship Grima was a waste of time).

If they didn't think anything about Grima, how did they find solace in him? Even if they didn't think they'd be eaten, they must have hoped that he'd awake and eat their cruel king, or something like that.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Baldrick

[Saladus]

And there's still how the game never properly addresses what Validar and assorted other named Grimleal get out of helping Grima destroy humanity. Or when and how the Grimleal formed around Grima to begin with.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Saladus

[Baldrick]

Validar at least has reason to believe he will be spared, since Grima saved his life in chapter 6.

[blah the Prussian]

Then again, Ylisse was an autocratic monarchy as well. Making anything a democracy was never in the cards.

[arvilino]

If they realised their new king was the leader of the Grimleal. From the POV of an average joe Plegian who has been kept under a tyrant's thumb, that's a big if. Chrom, the leader of Ylisse, didn't even know Validar's face until they met in chapter 13, so it's probable he keeps a low profile. Furthermore, they didn't seem to mind that Gangrel's right-hand woman was also Validar's right-hand woman.

If Plegia was no longer a dictatorship, there'd be no reason to find solace in the religion any more. Chalard calls Grima is a god of annihilation, and Mustafa says Plegians were touched by Emmeryn's martyrdom, so it's likely they'd flock towards the Ylisseans who killed the king who was abusing them. At least, it'd be harder to convince them to sacrifice themselves to the fell dragon if they have a happy life (Aversa's speech implies they need to be willing. If they didn't, then driving the people to worship Grima was a waste of time).

If they didn't think anything about Grima, how did they find solace in him? Even if they didn't think they'd be eaten, they must have hoped that he'd awake and eat their cruel king, or something like that.

I think it's more of a case as said in the script "The Temples offered them solace" or in other words joining for the Church first and not the Dragon itself specifically. If they already wanted to Serve Grima and destroying Ylisse they'd already be avid followers themselves. Plus they couldn't flock to Ylisse because the war ended in ceasefire therefore the borders shouldn't actually be open without permission(e.g. like in Chapter 5).

Due to the start of chapter 22 it seems they didn't think about the decision and joined the church for solace(Community, order,etc.) and then the general populace who joined ended up literally brainwashed like Aversa and compelled to sacrifice themselves to Grima once the moment arrived(and then later revived as Risen servants). Other more fanatical members would have already been part of the faith for different reasons like Validar's family carrying the fellblood of Grima and dedicatinf themselves to either being the vessel or producing a child as a vessel for the sole purpose to revive Grima get revenge on Naga and Ylisse, or the likes of Chalard, Algol and the Grimleal that weren't sacrificed that you still fight after Grima has been summoned.

Chrom

All these strange travelers... What's happening here?

Lissa

Let's ask 'em! Um, excuse me, sir? ...Sir?

Villager

...the appointed...time...

...to the Dragon's...Table...

...our prayers...Grima...

Lissa

Riiiiiight... I'll just be backing away slowly then...

Frederick

Sire!

Chrom

Frederick! Have the scouts returned?

Frederick

Yes, milord, and with grim news. Validar has moved to a great altar to Grima known as the Dragon's Table. What's more, it seems all the Grimleal in Plegia are headed there as well. It's as if they're being drawn by some unseen force...

Chrom

Any idea what it all means?

Frederick

Who can say, sire? They speak only gibberish and plod on as if possessed.

Edited April 18, 2015 by arvilino

[IGdood]

A basic way to show the villains being competent would be to say... you win a chapter and therefore the skirmish on that particular field but overall it was a bait and switch that caused the front to collapse everywhere else.

[NekoKnight]

A basic way to show the villains being competent would be to say... you win a chapter and therefore the skirmish on that particular field but overall it was a bait and switch that caused the front to collapse everywhere else.

Something like that happens in the second portion of RD. You go to that rebel lord's estate to arrest him (iirc) and he leaves a portion of his army behind to distract you as he seizes the capital of Crimea.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, that sort of method works really well in video games since it allows the player to "win" gameplaywise (which means he or she still gets the pleasure of surviving and overcoming a chapter) while still allowing the narrative to go badly for the player, and make the villains seem actually competent instead of merely someone to be foiled at every turn by the heroes.

Another is to have maps where you're trying to salvage the best of a bad situation, e.g. by escaping from the enemy army. FE has had a few of those, but they tend to feel a bit too much like normal maps. Optimally I'd have the player get chased by an army which would destroy them if the main force caught up, but FE is designed in this weird way where one or more suitably badass PC units can defeat a near infinite number of enemies, so I'm not sure how well it would work.

[NekoKnight]

Yeah, that sort of method works really well in video games since it allows the player to "win" gameplaywise (which means he or she still gets the pleasure of surviving and overcoming a chapter) while still allowing the narrative to go badly for the player, and make the villains seem actually competent instead of merely someone to be foiled at every turn by the heroes.

Another is to have maps where you're trying to salvage the best of a bad situation, e.g. by escaping from the enemy army. FE has had a few of those, but they tend to feel a bit too much like normal maps. Optimally I'd have the player get chased by an army which would destroy them if the main force caught up, but FE is designed in this weird way where one or more suitably badass PC units can defeat a near infinite number of enemies, so I'm not sure how well it would work.

It wouldn't be that hard to do. You can just make the attacking enemies progressively harder so you couldn't possibly defeat the ones who appear later in the chapter, actually necessitating that you escape. The Jeigan can also be dealt with by giving the enemies effective weapons like horseslayers and hammers.

[IGdood]

If one faction is much stronger than the other's, you can have missions where you pick off isolated units or wage war on the enemy's supply chains.

Or even better, a "sneaky" mission where your job is to avoid/kill enemy scouts. If they are alerted, you have to kill them before they make it back to the main army. If they do manage to alert the main force, you either get an instant game over or have to fight a battle you can't win without cheating.

[blah the Prussian]

If one faction is much stronger than the other's, you can have missions where you pick off isolated units or wage war on the enemy's supply chains.

Or even better, a "sneaky" mission where your job is to avoid/kill enemy scouts. If they are alerted, you have to kill them before they make it back to the main army. If they do manage to alert the main force, you either get an instant game over or have to fight a battle you can't win without cheating.

I don't actually think any other FE has shown a guerrilla war which would be interesting because it would be way more realistic.

[Zasplach]

I don't actually think any other FE has shown a guerrilla war which would be interesting because it would be way more realistic.

Thracia has some guerrilla war tactics, especially in the beginning when you are running for your life.

[Thane]

Garon invents the machine gun.

Now that'd be a twist.

[Dark Holy Elf]

It wouldn't be that hard to do. You can just make the attacking enemies progressively harder so you couldn't possibly defeat the ones who appear later in the chapter, actually necessitating that you escape. The Jeigan can also be dealt with by giving the enemies effective weapons like horseslayers and hammers.

Yeah, if the map is pretty early in the game that could certainly work. The further the game goes on, though, the way FE is structured, it becomes possible for the player to have a near unstoppable killing machine unit (of almost any class).

[Original Alear]

Garon invents the machine gun.

Now that'd be a twist.

Make it a machine gun powered by the dark lord [evil dragon name]!

[Thane]

Make it a machine gun powered by the dark lord [evil dragon name]!

Oh God, Legend of Korra flashbacks.

Dammit, it had so much potential...whyyyyyyy...

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Oh God, Legend of Korra flashbacks.

Dammit, it had so much potential...whyyyyyyy...

off topic, but because they just HAD to focus on a love triangle that ended up going nowhere and wasting everyone's time

[Thane]

off topic, but because they just HAD to focus on a love triangle that ended up going nowhere and wasting everyone's time

Rants and heavy spoilers incoming:

Mind-numbingly boring villains except for Amon and Kuvira to an extent, bloated cast (seriously, compare the amount of important characters in The Last Airbender and the Legend of Korra), poor characterization and development - seriously, why do those kids hang out together, and what the hell does Asami do besides giving the Avatar free stuff (yeah I know she's a girly girl who can kick ass and likes fast cars but what does she DO)? Lack of a cohesive plot, forced comedy (Bolin remains to this day the least funny comic relief character I've ever had the displeasure of seeing), forced love stories, general lack of direction.

It's such a shame, too. The first episode of the fourth season is by far the best episode of the Legend of Korra series, in my opinion. They set up everything BEAUTIFULLY. Bolin has an actual purpose, Kuvira seems like a promising villain since she's shown to be both ruthless against people who are against her and acts like a nice person with people she cares about - she comes across as an actual person first and villain second...and all that leads nowhere. Her motivations are explained in a two minute amateur therapy session, she gives up even though she has the upper hand, she never gets to talk properly to the characters close to her (she never talks to Junior after stabbing him in the back), we have no clue what happens to her after her surrender and all of her accomplishments are thrown out the window by one single sentence towards the end.

I could go on, but I really thought the fourth season was going to be the one to finally surpass The Last Airbender. As it stands now, Korra will always remain in Aang's shadow.

Sorry for going completely off topic, but damn that felt good.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Thane

[Original Alear]

Not a big fan of Kuvira's treatment of people within the earth kingdom. I think she would have been a better villain if she was more benign towards the earth kingdom but still interested in knocking out republic city.

she gives up even though she has the upper hand,

I don't remember much of the very ending of the fight, but hadn't she lost control of her giant beam weapon as well? I don't think she would have been able to deal with avatar mode Korra.

[Thane]

Not a big fan of Kuvira's treatment of people within the earth kingdom. I think she would have been a better villain if she was more benign towards the earth kingdom but still interested in knocking out republic city.

That's another thing, we never actually SAW any of the bad stuff going on in the Earth Kingdom aside from some refugees from other nations who fled from what was clearly supposed to be a reference to concentration camps...except they're never explained nor talked about again. Everything we hear about Kuvira, and everything we see her do, point to her actually having the heart in the right place but goes too far trying to achieve what she wants, but then all of a sudden something like concentration camps show up briefly and are never mentioned again. It's like they were trying to make her look bad but then gave up halfway through.

Like I said earlier, what I like about her - besides a great design and Zelda Williams as her voice actress - is that she at least initially feels like a person as opposed to just a villain, which is one of the few things the Avatar series has consistently struggled with a bit. However, they manage to squander even that by making her go too far (off screen apparently) and having far too little time to talk with those close to her. Seriously, we had an ENTIRE episode dedicated to the airbender kids which could've been used to explore Kuvira's personality and motivations more. Hell, having more dialogue would've been more suited for the theme of the season as well, but nope, they avoid talking about the complicated stuff and solve the ENTIRE conflict with one sentence once she's defeated.

I don't remember much of the very ending of the fight, but hadn't she lost control of her giant beam weapon as well? I don't think she would have been able to deal with avatar mode Korra.

She was on the ground, but her army surrounded the city and her mechs surrounded the (very tired) main characters. Once she tells them to stand down, they even look at each other in confusion.

The reason why I'm so hard on season 4 in particular is because, like I said, I had such high hopes. I really thought it would be the best Avatar season of them all, and that Korra would go out with a bang, but no, that didn't happen. I've come to terms with the awful season two, and even though so many people like the third one, I find it dull and poorly written. Ah well, at least I've got the first season and The Last Airbender...

Edited April 19, 2015 by Thane