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I doubt he'll be dragged out.  I think he'll be nowhere in the US by the time inauguration rolls around, given that the states want a crack at his crimes.

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27 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Trump won't be dragged out or anything. Do we really think he's the fighter he pretends he is lol?

He will be dragged out not because he is a fighter, but because he will be succumbing to COVID reinfection.

But yeah, I agree, I think the most likely scenario will just be him walking out being escorted by the Secret Service. Pretty uneventful.

27 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Trump is not winning anything from here on out.

He won the title of being the biggest douchebag president ever in United States history. I would rate Trump worse than Coolidge and Hoover, the dumbfucks who wrecked our economy during the Great Depression, and Jackson, the asshole who forcibly relocated Native Americans from the South.

Trump sent our economy spiraling downwards due his obese ego regarding COVID, causing more American deaths than all American wars since WWII combined. He also sent children into internment camps on the border, fucking over foreign trade, significantly reduced America's soft power and reputation abroad, and allowed China and Russia to rise unopposed.

I cannot think of any president who is worse than Trump.

Edited by XRay

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Just now, eclipse said:

I doubt he'll be dragged out.  I think he'll be nowhere in the US by the time inauguration rolls around, given that the states want a crack at his crimes.

This actually makes me ponder, did running for the presidency make catching him for white collar criminality more likely?

In the sense that he made himself higher profile than he already was, and that extra attention, combined with his lack of effort to hide the fact that he wasn't clean of criminal behavior, meant a greater effort would be placed on catching him.

If Trump had never ran for the highest office in the land, could he have remained suspect, but by laying low, would "white collar crime isn't that big a deal" have meant that the law wouldn't seriously try to catch him?

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Once Trump's bravado runs out he will go away in shame.

Prepare to argue for four years (at least) about how the election was stolen from him and there was mass voter fraud, though. You could memorise this argument.

Edited by Tryhard

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2 minutes ago, XRay said:

I cannot think of any president who is worse than Trump.

In modern history, I believe this.

But I think we're underestimating how shitty, say, Andrew Johnson and Andrew Jackson were because we just can't conceptualize it.

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15 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

Prepare to argue for four years (at least) about how the election was stolen from him and there was mass voter fraud, though. You could memorise this argument.

Hmm... I wonder what his complementary presidential library is going to look like? I thought I read once what those tend to do is eulogize the man in question's presidency. It could be the Santiago de Compostela of the American radical right, built near the lovely Mar-a-Lago. Which makes me question if the presidential library thing needs to stop.

 

15 minutes ago, Crysta said:

In modern history, I believe this.

But I think we're underestimating how shitty, say, Andrew Johnson and Andrew Jackson were because we just can't conceptualize it.

Andrew Johnson as a person? Yeah, definitely terrible, though his actual actions as president were almost naught before Republican control of Congress so strong that modern Congress(wo)men and Senators of all stripes should salivate at that pipe dream.

Andrew Jackson... didn't Trump say he liked the guy? Demagogue no.1 in a certain sense, Trump might've led to an increased interest by historians in studying him. Jackson is  the culprit behind the horrendous Trail of Tears, that alone should sink his reputation to the negatives. And Jackson's war with the Second Bank of the United States led to his successor Martin Van Buren inheriting an economic ticking time bomb that exploded into a recession.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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9 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Hmm... I wonder what his complementary presidential library is going to look like? I thought I read once what those tend to do is eulogize the man in question's presidency. It could be the Santiago de Compostela of the American radical right, built near the lovely Mar-a-Lago. Which makes me question if the presidential library thing needs to stop.

It'll be like a Vegas casino and it'll be weird af

Andrew Johnson is responsible for how terrible Reconstruction was, really, and that has more longstanding consequences than people think

Andrew Jackson was pretty much what Trump wants people to think he is. I'd argue he was a lot smarter but that bar is very, very low.

 

Edited by Crysta

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Trump shouldn't get a complimentary library, besides the dude can barely read.  Also the presidential portrait, you can lock that in the boiler room.  

He shouldn't get one ounce of respect offered by Biden, or anyone else for that matter.  He's forever a massive black mark on American history, and many people don't see it now, but they will later.  

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39 minutes ago, Crysta said:

It'll be like a Vegas casino and it'll be weird af

Andrew Johnson is responsible for how terrible Reconstruction was, really, and that has more longstanding consequences than people think

Andrew Jackson was pretty much what Trump wants people to think he is. I'd argue he was a lot smarter but that bar is very, very low.

 

People think about the Reconstruction period? I'm sure it's one of the more forgotten periods in US history, coming right after the glorious Civil War, which tends to end a "US History Part 1" course. A government willing to engage in unusually massive intervention to rebuild the South and potentially put the newly freed African Americans on a solid socio-economic and political footing, an opportunity which was wasted and followed with a century of Jim Crow. Thats was a massive setback to this country's racial-societal advancement, that took about another century years to correct with the 1960s. Modern Progressives I can imagine feel the shared frustration of the Reconstruction Radical Republicans in trying to overcome their party's moderates.

As for Andrew Jackson, IIRC, one of my old history textbooks did say he would misspell a word in several different ways in a single letter, that has a Trumpian feel to it.

 

16 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

He shouldn't get one ounce of respect offered by Biden, or anyone else for that matter.  He's forever a massive black mark on American history, and many people don't see it now, but they will later.  

Assuming Trumpism lose all its appeal at some point. Not guaranteed to happen at all, not from this point in the stream of time. "Peronism" is still a thing in Argentina long after its charismatic founder's death, although apparently it's so flexible that the left and right (including radicals) can claim it.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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55 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

People think about the Reconstruction period? I'm sure it's one of the more forgotten periods in US history, coming right after the glorious Civil War, which tends to end a "US History Part 1" course. A government willing to engage in unusually massive intervention to rebuild the South and potentially put the newly freed African Americans on a solid socio-economic and political footing, an opportunity which was wasted and followed with a century of Jim Crow. Thats was a massive setback to this country's racial-societal advancement, that took about another century years to correct with the 1960s. Modern Progressives I can imagine feel the shared frustration of the Reconstruction Radical Republicans in trying to overcome their party's moderates.

From wikipedia:

Quote

When Republican President Abraham Lincoln was assassinated at the end of the Civil War, Vice President Andrew Johnson, a Democrat from Tennessee and former slave holder, became president. Johnson favored rapid measures to bring the South back into the Union, allowing the Southern states to determine the rights of former slaves. Lincoln's last speeches show that he leaned toward supporting the suffrage of all freedmen, whereas Johnson and the Democratic Party were strongly opposed to this.[3] Radical Republicans in Congress sought stronger, federal measures to upgrade the rights of African Americans, including the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, while curtailing the rights of former Confederates, such as through the provisions of the Wade–Davis Bill. Johnson, the most prominent Southerner to oppose the Confederacy, followed a lenient policy toward ex-Confederates.

I'm not surprised that it's not explored.

EDIT: The Republicans used to be cool and did stop it from being as awful as it could be, but Johnson was really, really bad.

Edited by Crysta

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I'm obliged to say James K. Polk was among the worst.

Don't forget how Reconstruction ended as well. As a deal to give Rutherford Hayes the EC votes he needed to win in exchange.

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3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

This actually makes me ponder, did running for the presidency make catching him for white collar criminality more likely?

In the sense that he made himself higher profile than he already was, and that extra attention, combined with his lack of effort to hide the fact that he wasn't clean of criminal behavior, meant a greater effort would be placed on catching him.

If Trump had never ran for the highest office in the land, could he have remained suspect, but by laying low, would "white collar crime isn't that big a deal" have meant that the law wouldn't seriously try to catch him?

Not really.  One of Trump's many issues is his inability to STFU, even if it would be to his benefit.  So sooner or later he'd step on the wrong toes and find himself neck-deep in his own consequences.  Just that we gave him a gigantic microphone, so it meant that he pissed off more people.

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1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'm obliged to say James K. Polk was among the worst.

Maybe not the best as a person, but you do have to admire his effectiveness. He was the only president to fulfill all of his inauguration promises.

I'd have to put Woodrow Wilson as one of the worst. Horrible racist, massive authoritarian, and basically started the trend of long-term American interventionism in poorer countries.

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6 minutes ago, leetic said:

Maybe not the best as a person, but you do have to admire his effectiveness. He was the only president to fulfill all of his inauguration promises.

I'd have to put Woodrow Wilson as one of the worst. Horrible racist, massive authoritarian, and basically started the trend of long-term American interventionism in poorer countries.

I know that. It was an admittedly half-joke comment, since I'm a Mexican.

The one who started it was Theodore Roosevelt. The charge of San Juan Hill was only a sign of things to come for my region...

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2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I know that. It was an admittedly half-joke comment, since I'm a Mexican.

The one who started it was Theodore Roosevelt. The charge of San Juan Hill was only a sign of things to come for my region...

Theodore was more of a "hit them with a big stick, then leave" guy. Compare that to Wilson's intervention in Nicaragua (lasted for eight years) and his occupation of Haiti (went on for nearly twenty years). Started a bad habit that we are still dealing with given our presence in Afghanistan and Iraq.

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2 minutes ago, leetic said:

Theodore was more of a "hit them with a big stick, then leave" guy. Compare that to Wilson's intervention in Nicaragua (lasted for eight years) and his occupation of Haiti (went on for nearly twenty years). Started a bad habit that we are still dealing with given our presence in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Well, it was still the next step. And well, Roosevelt still brought an almost century long occupation of the Panama Canal.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, it was still the next step. And well, Roosevelt still brought an almost century long occupation of the Panama Canal.

Minor foreign intervention was always a thing in US politics, you could say it goes back to Thomas Jefferson and the Barbary War of 1801. Wilson's innovation was that we had to stay in these countries and try to "build a democracy" or whatever.

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ngl I'm almost tempted to start a shitty president tier list

I'm actually not very familiar with most of them, particularly the ones who got assassinated outside of Lincoln or JFK.

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Sooo I think even Biden was anticipating a state or two would be called today. Georgia's so finished with its count that the only reason you'd wait any longer is if you genuinely think there's a chance the recount will change the outcome. Not saying that's impossible, but I am saying that every instance in the past I can think of where a state was asked to recount, they were still called in the meantime. And I don't know how long a recount would take to finish anyhow. Pennsylvania is the real kicker though. That Biden lead may not be massive, but if you see where the rest of the votes are coming from, the outcome is clear. Ditto for Nevada. 

59 minutes ago, Crysta said:

ngl I'm almost tempted to start a shitty president tier list

I considered this as a potentially fun research project, but I was worried that the top tier would just be the least offensive guys. And I'm a longtime hater of the "yeah, he seems like somebody I'd have a beer with" mentality of appraising leaders. For instance, you start with Washington, a man who changed/abused state slavery laws in order to keep his favorites around in DC, where slavery was outlawed. And also made a serial killer-level of effort to reclaim one of his escaped slaves. Dude's a psycho. But also he's a man that literally fought on behalf of slavery our freedom and had a 100% approval rating. It's hard to separate the individual from the time period, too. And I kind of hate the stigma of having to give a pass to people for "things that may have been socially acceptable at the time". Yeah, I'm sure black folks were real amenable to their legal status as property. That's how you get awful takes like "well, actually, slaves didn't have to pay for food or housing. But they still worked, so at least they had more dignity than welfare queens".

 

Edited by Glennstavos

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I think Georgia still has military ballots to count, so it wants to wait.  Then when those are counted it will be called for (probably) Biden, however recount will start automatically.  The big thing is Pennsylvania lead of Biden will, barring anything unexpected, soon pass recount territory and might be able to be called this weekend.  

I want Biden to be called the winner on major networks, and then we can move on to the next chapter of this horror story.  Trump's flailing litigation attacks.  Chapter after that is trying to convince electors to give all their votes to him even if Biden won that most votes from that state.  Then we get to Congress approving/accepting the new president, then finally the Jan. 21th will Trump leave?  We have a long brutal path of insane stress and uncertainty waiting for us.  I'm sure with much violence to come once this is called and the other side does not accept the result.  

 

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42 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

It's hard to separate the individual from the time period, too. And I kind of hate the stigma of having to give a pass to people for "things that may have been socially acceptable at the time". Yeah, I'm sure black folks were real amenable to their legal status as property. That's how you get awful takes like "well, actually, slaves didn't have to pay for food or housing. But they still worked, so at least they had more dignity than welfare queens".

I do wonder if 100+ years from now if "it was socially acceptable at the time" will be used by high school students to explain why the nation accepted Trump and all the things he proceeded to do after he was elected. If they'll forget more than half of the U.S. population just like they ignore the abolitionists and slaves. There were, believe it or not, people who were at the signing of the Declaration of Independence/Constitution who did not own slaves.

But the fact that we've survived having sociopaths in office should be a good sign that we can survive what is to come, too.

As for the networks not calling it when the math is on the wall and even their own newscasters seem to have no clue why it's not being called, I think it may be 2016 PTSD. Or the execs are milking the coverage, and curled up under a desk and crying now that they won't get any more salacious Trump/MAGA content.

I don't think you're gonna get a maelstrom of Trumper violence. I expect more of what we've seen already: protests of old white people waving flags and being obnoxious. We do have to worry about the Qanon crazies, but I think law enforcement is already on the ball with that.

I am curious if Trump's rallies will peter out because his lib-owning powers have been severely lessened because there's no longer any capital in giving him the media coverage he so craves, and eventually we're going to stop caring. He's definitely going to get banned from Twitter after he leaves office.

Edited by Crysta

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Georgia lead has increased to over 7K. Is this with the military ballots being counted? If so then they weren't leading red after all. If not... then little chance they'll flip it back.

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24 minutes ago, Crysta said:

*snip*

I'd like all of it to be archived so that it can be used against him in court. Again, I do HOPE he faces charges for all that he's done in office, and a lot of that would likely back up cases against him.

Aside from that, whatever demonic magic is holding him together will probably cease the moment he's banned, and he'll turn back into the pile of shit that he was molded from.

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14 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I do wonder if 100+ years from now if "it was socially acceptable at the time" will be used by high school students to explain why the nation accepted Trump and all the things he proceeded to do after he was elected. If they'll forget more than half of the U.S. population just like they ignore the abolitionists and slaves. There were, believe it or not, people who were at the signing of the Declaration of Independence/Constitution who did not own slaves.

Dude I lived through the Trump era and I can't figure out how to summarize it into a two paragraph short answer. I guess it really comes down to which things are emphasized by the teacher. "Trump was a popular, rich celebrity" is going to be the 22nd century equivalent to "Rosa Parks was a tired woman who decided one day she didn't want to give up her seat". In that both of those statements are false on every level as far as characterization. 

But I think the one difference between now and two hundred years ago is that there is evidence of opposition to Trump. Whereas the accounts of slaves or people who did not support the revolution or just the uneducated/illiterate were never recorded and we mostly have to infer their opinions and perspectives. We live in an age of gratuitous polling and retweeting of opinions. More voices than ever get heard when they want to be.

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