Do you hate Avatar character(s)? If so, why?

[HTakara82]

I feel like this would result in more complaining. "Why does my MU have no story input? I created a character and now they're ignored? I'm not OP as fuck?" MU should be scrapped because there's no winning with it.

This

[Xylaugheon Daily]

Here's my position. Personally, the concept is so unimaginably exciting to me that the thought of them ever being taken out has me in a panic attack. However, ask yourself this: have any of them lived up to the likes of, say, Hector or Ike? How about of Matthew or Nephenee? They're to be front and center, and yet aren't living up to past side characters, let alone leads! Which blows my mind. Take Shadow Dragon, let us customize Marth, have him written the same, and you'll have the best MU yet.

They also are too plot oriented. Now, that isn't necessarily bad; I love the core concept of Kamui (regardless of execution,) but the big issue here is that the stories are terrible. They keep going for 'bigger' and more 'grandiose' plots that are too much, way too much, and are both cliche and lacking in personality. And nothing is subtle anymore. Why is that? I'll never understand.

Now, mechanically speaking I think they've done fine work indeed! Robin gave us complete freedom, and Kamui made us strategize more while still giving us much freedom, if not more of a reward this go around. Actual options in creating are meh, but it's still something new to them and will improve with time.

Now, as a nigh impossible dream, I'd love for some kind of control over personality. Ideally, something I could pick or even craft during creation, but even through options would be acceptable, and far more manageable. Only the future will tell!

[HTakara82]

The problem with having a avatar with controllable personality, is the supports. Can you imagine the amount of work needed to make dialogue trees for every single support conversation?

[Xylaugheon Daily]

The problem with having a avatar with controllable personality, is the supports. Can you imagine the amount of work needed to make dialogue trees for every single support conversation?

Oh, no, I'm well aware. That's why I call it a nigh impossible dream, ha. However, having Dialogue options (EDIT: outside of Supports!) would give me flexibility in terms of personality, as well as prevent any kind of continuity errors you'd fine via supports. However, one solid way to make it work would be to say 'Here are four personality types. Choose one for your MU.' Then, based on your choice, he'd have different people he could Support with. MU can still technically 'Support' everyone, but only a select few based on his chosen personality. Sure, he'd have one or two he'd always support because plot, but writing a few extra based on that wouldn't hurt. Now, if it greatly influenced the overall plot, that'd be something different. But there are ways to make it work, and is something I'd love to see them try.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Xylaugheon Daily

[Jedi]

Yeah part of the current problem with the avatar and a number of characters is just HOW MANY THEY SUPPORT, it somewhat gets repetitive in some cases, we need a toning back of support options like the older days.

[Xylaugheon Daily]

Yeah part of the current problem with the avatar and a number of characters is just HOW MANY THEY SUPPORT, it somewhat gets repetitive in some cases, we need a toning back of support options like the older days.

Not only that, we need better Support concepts. FE7 still has some of my absolute favorite, not because the writing was great (though it was,) but because the actual conversation topics were good! They added such depth to the characters! Sure, Awakening and Fates have a few of those themselves, but they're far and few between. Example, finding out Dart and Rebecca are siblings was such a joy! Matthew and Guy was fun and showed us the clash of life styles. Sain and Rebecca, while not deep, literally had me laughing out loud. Raven and Lucius was seriously heavy and had such heart to it. In case you couldn't tell, FE7 supports are my favorite >.<

Basically, if two characters don't have a real reason to talk, maybe they shouldn't.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Xylaugheon Daily

[HTakara82]

Yeah part of the current problem with the avatar and a number of characters is just HOW MANY THEY SUPPORT, it somewhat gets repetitive in some cases, we need a toning back of support options like the older days.

It'll end up pissing off more people than appease.

There' be a complete shit fest of why can't I waifu X person?! and so forth. It was bad enough when people were constantly bitching as to why person A can't support person C in past fire emblems, but if you take away a feature that allows that freedom, it'll be a complete shitfest.

[Sunwoo]

It'll end up pissing off more people than appease.

There' be a complete shit fest of why can't I waifu X person?! and so forth. It was bad enough when people were constantly bitching as to why person A can't support person C in past fire emblems, but if you take away a feature that allows that freedom, it'll be a complete shitfest.

If you really think that it will lead to the complete breaking apart of the FE fanbase, then you must not have a high opinion of the fanbase to begin with.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Sunwoo

[Dark Sage]

Basically, if two characters don't have a real reason to talk, maybe they shouldn't.

I think Benoit/Belka and Ryoma/Camilla are the best examples of what you're talking about. The former is like the mythical Jaffar/Rath support and the latter flat out says that they have nothing in common and nothing to talk about (which I think is just the writers not trying hard enough). Ok if you feel that way, why do you have a support? Don't rub it in my face that there's no point in the support exisiting if you can't be bothered to come up with anything. Edited October 10, 2015 by Dark Sage

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

If you really think that it will lead to the complete breaking apart of the FE fanbase, then you must not have a high opinion of the fanbase to begin with.

alot of people seem to have the strangest idea that our fanbase is literally worse then MLP, KH, FF, insert anime here, and any MOBA's.

it really makes me wonder what they are doing here if they don't love us.

Edited October 10, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[HTakara82]

If you really think that it will lead to the complete breaking apart of the FE fanbase, then you must not have a high opinion of the fanbase to begin with.

All fanbases are bad, overly critical, tendency to talk about the bad more than the good, excessively blinded by nostalgia, etc

[Sunwoo]

All fanbases are bad, overly critical, tendency to talk about the bad more than the good, excessively blinded by nostalgia, etc

You can speak about being blinded by nostalgia all you want, but your last post that I quoted seems to be implying that it's the new people who wouldn't be able to deal with a Fire Emblem that decided to use the older mechanics.

[Baldrick]

New fans could be nostalgic for Awakening, there isn't a minimum time limit on that. I think those that aren't interested in the old games probably wouldn't play a new game that has more in common with the older games.

[blinkingbrave]

You can speak about being blinded by nostalgia all you want, but your last post that I quoted seems to be implying that it's the new people who wouldn't be able to deal with a Fire Emblem that decided to use the older mechanics.

I think... perhaps to an extent that's true though? A large part of the enjoyment me and my friends got from Awakening was from the open support system and the avatar. I went back and played some of the older ones because I enjoyed strategy games, but they didn't and never felt compelled to. Even now, Awakening is the only one I replay.

Awakening and what it incorporated (or popularized, for those things FE12, was it? introduced) really does make it a different experience from the older games, and it kinda opened the series to more than just the SRPG fan. If the character stuff were to be limited and locked away a la GBA FE (never even mind the reintroduction of other older mechanics), I'm not quite sure the others I know who picked up Awakening would enjoy this new game or purchase the one following it if were a series trend. I dunno if I'd be compelled to pay full price for it either, honestly, depending on exactly what changes were made.

[HTakara82]

You can speak about being blinded by nostalgia all you want, but your last post that I quoted seems to be implying that it's the new people who wouldn't be able to deal with a Fire Emblem that decided to use the older mechanics.

Old and new both, I consider myself an old time FE fan, been one for roughly 11 or 12 years. But, I don't pretend old FEs are perfection. They had solid gameplay, but could use some tweeking in some areas. The stories were mediocre at best, characters for the most part shallow and typically 1 or 2 dimensional. Never once, have I empathized with a fire emblem character, it never had that kind of writing. The only reason why characters like Nephenee were my favorite, was because she had a cute design, cute personality qwerk, and was a total beast.

I love Fire Emblem but I don't make it out to be something that it's not.

New fans could be nostalgic for Awakening, there isn't a minimum time limit on that. I think those that aren't interested in the old games probably wouldn't play a new game that has more in common with the older games.

I agree, but I think some old players would feel it'd be a step back as well. When Radiant Dawn came out, despite how disgustingly bad the supports was, people loved that you can support with anyone giving the freedom to strategize and customize how you want. I feel it should only go forward, the most logical step would be to improve the quality of the support convo's themselves, and if the budget allows it, somewhere down the line, make it more intricate. Baby Steps, I say, I baby steps.

I believe that IS is heading in the right direction with Fire Emblem, if they continue to be progressive with the gameplay, then it's only gonna go up. What they need now, is a solid writing staff.

[Sunwoo]

I think... perhaps to an extent that's true though? A large part of the enjoyment me and my friends got from Awakening was from the open support system and the avatar. I went back and played some of the older ones because I enjoyed strategy games, but they didn't and never felt compelled to. Even now, Awakening is the only one I replay.

Awakening and what it incorporated (or popularized, for those things FE12, was it? introduced) really does make it a different experience from the older games, and it kinda opened the series to more than just the SRPG fan. If the character stuff were to be limited and locked away a la GBA FE (never even mind the reintroduction of other older mechanics), I'm not quite sure the others I know who picked up Awakening would enjoy this new game or purchase the one following it if were a series trend. I dunno if I'd be compelled to pay full price for it either, honestly, depending on exactly what changes were made.

There's a difference between deciding that the current system the game is using isn't for you and not getting it, and throwing a big hissy fit over it. Since it's completely possible for people to decide that the most recent game, or even the series as it is currently progressing, is not for them and to quietly pass on it without fanfare. There will always be people who decide "this is not for me" and not get a game. I'm sure there are some fans who aren't going to get FE14 because they don't like the direction the series is going in, but some of them decided to do so without making a big stink over it.

I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about people who would literally throw a shitfest if a FE game decided to use some of the older mechanics. Now, I know the FE fanbase isn't excellent, but I think we deserve more credit than that.

[Gomez_Addams]

Not only that, we need better Support concepts. FE7 still has some of my absolute favorite, not because the writing was great (though it was,) but because the actual conversation topics were good! They added such depth to the characters! Sure, Awakening and Fates have a few of those themselves, but they're far and few between. Example, finding out Dart and Rebecca are siblings was such a joy! Matthew and Guy was fun and showed us the clash of life styles. Sain and Rebecca, while not deep, literally had me laughing out loud. Raven and Lucius was seriously heavy and had such heart to it. In case you couldn't tell, FE7 supports are my favorite >.<

Basically, if two characters don't have a real reason to talk, maybe they shouldn't.

Dorcas/Vaida. That is all.

[Baldrick]

I think a good support isn't necessarily between people with a good reason to talk. A good support either:

1) Fleshes out one or both characters

2) Has the characters' personalities interact in an interesting/amusing manner.

[Augestein]

Dorcas/Vaida. That is all.

Is actually decent. We get from it that Vaida is a conclusion jumper and has a bit of a wild imagination. Meanwhile, Dorcas remains level headed as usual. Supports being odd because of incompatible characters can be fine, the issue is when you have conversations where the characters LITERALLY HAVE NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT. Take Sumia in Awakening. Sumia isn't very good socially, so as a result, her support list is very small. Makes sense. Chrom's supports for instance aren't terrible either with the exception of Female Robin.

The support amounts are the problem, because if you look at say, the same gender supports in Awakening, most of them aren't too bad. MaribellexOlivia is a real hoot for instance.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Is actually decent. We get from it that Vaida is a conclusion jumper and has a bit of a wild imagination. Meanwhile, Dorcas remains level headed as usual. Supports being odd because of incompatible characters can be fine, the issue is when you have conversations where the characters LITERALLY HAVE NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT. Take Sumia in Awakening. Sumia isn't very good socially, so as a result, her support list is very small. Makes sense. Chrom's supports for instance aren't terrible either with the exception of Female Robin.

The support amounts are the problem, because if you look at say, the same gender supports in Awakening, most of them aren't too bad. MaribellexOlivia is a real hoot for instance.

pretty much this, lets be real, we could atleast remove all the supports that wouldn't benefit the children at all.

lets be real, we'd never use someone like...Ricken, to Marry someone like...Cordelia or Cherche, right?

[Tactless Tactician]

pretty much this, lets be real, we could atleast remove all the supports that wouldn't benefit the children at all.

lets be real, we'd never use someone like...Ricken, to Marry someone like...Cordelia or Cherche, right?

Out of curiosity, what supports would be eliminated?

Those that are written poorly, those that have the least likelihood of occurring, or those that are perceived as sub-optimal for children based on class inheritance or mods?

As far as your hypothetical example is concerned, Ricken is a decent magic option if you want Severa to end up as a Sorcerer or Dark Flier but have higher magic growths to offset Cordelia's poorer ones.

And at least Ricken!Gerome makes a decent Dread Fighter with Luna access, and can inherit Bowbreaker to make avoiding the Snipers in his Paralogue easier.

[Irysa]

Never once, have I empathized with a fire emblem character,

Maybe you're not qualified to talk about such things then. :^)

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Out of curiosity, what supports would be eliminated?

Those that are written poorly, those that have the least likelihood of occurring, or those that are perceived as sub-optimal for children based on class inheritance or mods?

As far as your hypothetical example is concerned, Ricken is a decent magic option if you want Severa to end up as a Sorcerer or Dark Flier but have higher magic growths to offset Cordelia's poorer ones.

And at least Ricken!Gerome makes a decent Dread Fighter with Luna access, and can inherit Bowbreaker to make avoiding the Snipers in his Paralogue easier.

i was using that as an example as i know ricken gets the shaft by alot of people, myslef included when its time for marriage

with that said i'd say the least likelihood and sub optimal ones would be gone, as written poorly is subjective, while the other two can be backed up, but i could be wrong here again.

[HTakara82]

Maybe you're not qualified to talk about such things then. :^)

Or have better writing.

[Topaz Light]

Or have better writing.

I think the reason everyone has been saying that you're just trying to shut down discussion is because you haven't been giving very much in the way of concrete examples to support your position. Most of what you've said has amounted to "Yes but I don't like the thing that you suggested/didn't like the thing that you brought up so it's a bad idea". You're entitled to your own feelings about things, of course, but if you're attempting to sway others to your position or prove your own correctness (basically impossible on the subject of opinions anyway), then you need to be able to provide some concrete backing for your stance.

In this instance, for example, could you provide some sort of evidence to support that past Fire Emblem games' plots and characterizations were, in some way, objectively-worse than Awakening's and Fates'? And remember, "I didn't like them as much" doesn't count; that's subjective.

Other people here have been providing examples of things that past Fire Emblem games have done well with their writing and contrasting it with the newer games' failures to do similar things. Meanwhile, you've just been responding with, "I didn't like the older games", "people would throw a shitfit if you made it more like the older games", and stuff along those lines. Again, you are completely allowed to have your own feelings and opinions about these things, but other people are not immature, shortsighted, or wrong for not sharing those opinions. I get that Awakening and Fates strike a good balance for your personal enjoyment of them, and that's fine, but I'm beginning to suspect from many of your responses that you basically started this topic to pick fights with people who disagree with you, and that sort of behavior is not respectable.

On the actual topic of discussion, I don't really have anything new to add, but I'll give my two cents anyway.

I think the bottom line is that Intelligent Systems has been playing with customizable, player-created protagonists, but they've never really fully committed to having a player-generated, player-driven protagonist, so you get this weird hybrid between that and a preset protagonist who doesn't really do a good job at being either.

I think there are really three options for what to do about this:

1. Basically FE7's Mark, but as a unit. Minimal impact on the story aside from maybe supposedly being the group's Tactician, but is still playable in combat and can be customized aesthetically and as a unit.
2. A personal idea I've had in the past, is that what if the "My Unit" characters were just "Mercenary" characters? Pay some gold to recruit them, and you can customize them and name them and give them whatever class you like. They don't get any supports; only get minor dialogue based on a "trait" you pick for them. Stuff like event tiles and that. This way people could still make themselves, or their characters, or even their friends, but it wouldn't bog down the story. They'd just be extra units for you to use.

   Sort of like guest avatars in Awakening, but with more customization. After all, when everybody's portrait has them wearing the plegian tactician robes, despite their class, it's kind of immersion breaking...

3. Actually commit to making a player-created, player-driven protagonist. Allow their actions to drive the story forward to some extent, or to at least influence its course. Give the player at least some control over what they say and do during the plot and during interactions with other characters. Don't be afraid to let other characters have dynamic opinions of the protagonist, either; loving them, hating them, or anything in between based on the player's decisions.

I don't have a problem with the idea of an Avatar or a customizable playable character. I do have a problem with IS's shamelessly-pandering, half-baked implementations of Avatars thus far.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Starlight36