How would you improve the Avatar?

[Tolvir]

Better options over actual personality. Give a good 5-10 options that decides the that decides the dialogue, how they respond ( not in a major way), maybe even things like their marriage options.

Also a way more extensive customization. Facial hair, more scars, faces, eye color, more body types, more hairstyles etc. allow there to be ranges between corrin's base appearance, to Nolan from RD. Allow us to create he character we want.

Less of a story role. No more being the lord, something more akin to Robin, but with a bit less of a role.

This could get op quickly, but I think a bit of customization over classes would be nice. Something like a base weapon pref for the character. I also think allowing extra customization over armor appearance for the avatar would be nice. Something like being able to add a bit of armor to a Mage class, or having s bit less as a knight. Customization for class appearance would be great because it would allow us, as I have said before, create the character we want.

Edit: also, if the personal skills stay, then a bit of customization over that too.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Tolvir

[Sentinel07]

There's one small thing I thought of that I'd like to see. If the Avatar has a special weapon, I'd like to see them earn it later instead of receiving it at the beginning. One thing I really liked about the older games is that protagonists typically had to work for their special weapons.

Marth has to go through hell and back and get the Falchion back from Gharnef.

Eliwood and Hector have to pass some challenging ordeals to get Durandal and Armads.

Ephraim and Eirika had to take Renais back before they got Seiglinde and Siegmunde.

Make them EARN stuff. I didn't like the whole Yato thing proclaiming Corrin as a destined hero before he even did anything.

[paladin21]

There's one small thing I thought of that I'd like to see. If the Avatar has a special weapon, I'd like to see them earn it later instead of receiving it at the beginning. One thing I really liked about the older games is that protagonists typically had to work for their special weapons.

Marth has to go through hell and back and get the Falchion back from Gharnef.

Eliwood and Hector have to pass some challenging ordeals to get Durandal and Armads.

Ephraim and Eirika had to take Renais back before they got Seiglinde and Siegmunde.

Make them EARN stuff. I didn't like the whole Yato thing proclaiming Corrin as a destined hero before he even did anything.

But each of them had another personal weapon from the start of each game, call it Rapier, Wolf's Beil or Reginleif. Getting a weapon that could be ranked D at the start of the game as Prf isn't as unusual. The only difference is that he has to activate its hidden power by overcoming the Rainbow Sage's test and other hardships before it actually feels a legendary weapon.

However, on the other characters you mention:

• Marth: I agree he has to fight for it... but he shouldn't have lost it in the second book.
• Eliwood and Hector: even though they have to face tasks, Lyn got her Sol Katti just because she happened to travel with the other duo.
• Ephraim and Eirika could have accessed their Holy Weapons before the war began. They just left them behind (it makes sense in order not to break them). They did take their other OP weapons (specially the Reginleif).

If you check the other games:

• Both Sigurd and Celice have to recover the Tyrfing after their respective fathers demise. Celice, however can inherit Sigurds other weapons, which can be quite a few.
• Leif starts with the Light Sword and the Blaggi sword isn't locked to him after all.
• Ike has the Ragnell since his father's death, he just doesn't use it. He hadn't done anything by that time actually.
• Chrom has the Falchion from the start as well, so he just has to unlock its potential.

What I mean is that not everyone has to earn the right to wield a weapon, since half of the holy weapon wielders are linked to their weapons because of their ancestry, and the Yato might have chosen him just because he had dragon and Vallite blood. And he had done something, he took a bomb to Hoshido to blow the statue that hid the sword.

[Sentinel07]

But each of them had another personal weapon from the start of each game, call it Rapier, Wolf's Beil or Reginleif. Getting a weapon that could be ranked D at the start of the game as Prf isn't as unusual. The only difference is that he has to activate its hidden power by overcoming the Rainbow Sage's test and other hardships before it actually feels a legendary weapon.

However, on the other characters you mention:

• Marth: I agree he has to fight for it... but he shouldn't have lost it in the second book.
• Eliwood and Hector: even though they have to face tasks, Lyn got her Sol Katti just because she happened to travel with the other duo.
• Ephraim and Eirika could have accessed their Holy Weapons before the war began. They just left them behind (it makes sense in order not to break them). They did take their other OP weapons (specially the Reginleif).

If you check the other games:

• Both Sigurd and Celice have to recover the Tyrfing after their respective fathers demise. Celice, however can inherit Sigurds other weapons, which can be quite a few.
• Leif starts with the Light Sword and the Blaggi sword isn't locked to him after all.
• Ike has the Ragnell since his father's death, he just doesn't use it. He hadn't done anything by that time actually.
• Chrom has the Falchion from the start as well, so he just has to unlock its potential.

What I mean is that not everyone has to earn the right to wield a weapon, since half of the holy weapon wielders are linked to their weapons because of their ancestry, and the Yato might have chosen him just because he had dragon and Vallite blood. And he had done something, he took a bomb to Hoshido to blow the statue that hid the sword.

I suppose that's all true.

I guess what I'm saying is that I like the old style of a protagonist having a weapon like Rapier or Reginleif or whatever to start and then the legendary weapon coming much later.

[Avi448]

i would improve it by:

-no plot relevance

-no more waifu emblem (i know this won't happen but Fates just went too far trying to please all kind of people. did we really need so many 12 years old girls? )

Do that and maybe i won't drop the game like i did with Fates

[Original Alear]

Drop the apparent compulsion to have the avatar support with every character in the game. And in general the devs shouldn't feel like it's necessary to have so many supports for each character (to the point where most characters of a gender can support with most chars of the same gen and opposite gender).

I feel that the GBA gen and PoR did support content best, and sometimes I wonder if the writers would put out more quality supports if they had a lesser quantity to write. I dunno though.

[Juneriffic56]

I actually really love the Avatar mechanic, honestly. Probably one of my favorite things about Awakening and Fates.

However, I did prefer when they weren't really the main character like with Robin. And I do think the constant worship is a little much, especially with characters quite centered around them, like Camilla and Jakob. Those characters are fine, but I think they also shouldn't be afraid to call the Avatar out on a dumb decision either, and tone down the worship.

Also, even more hair, hair color, face, face details, accessories, etc. would be nice. Oh, and guys should be able to have an accessory at the start as well. Nothing wrong with a guy wearing a bow or flower on his head!

[NeonZ]

-I'd prefer if the avatar remained as a secondary character, rather than the protagonist.

-Alongside that, it'd allow IS to give the player some options on customizing their backstory. FE12 had that to a point, but it has been completely forgotten since then.

-Initial class choice (like in FE12) and custom "main color" choice.

-Personality choices for the voiced dialogue.

-Various dialogue choices for the written dialogue in many points - even if they're just for flavor and don't really change things up, like the few that pop up during Awakening. I was actually surprised that Fates completely dropped that feature aside from the route split, considering how it was advertised as putting the player in the main role. That'd allow them to give a wide variety of voice dialogue choices, without needing to write full scripts for all of them.

The issue with limiting the avatar's support choices with the various characters is that the player would have no way to know that during character creation, so they could feel like they'd be punished for something they had no control over (an avatar unable to support with their favorite characters).

Edited July 17, 2016 by NeonZ

[Light Strategist]

The issue with limiting the avatar's support choices with the various characters is that the player would have no way to know that during character creation, so they could feel like they'd be punished for something they had no control over (an avatar unable to support with their favorite characters).

They could do it based on similar classes or something but that could cause problems too. Still, the ideas of alternative ways may allow people to come to a fair understanding compromise.

[NekoKnight]

The issue with limiting the avatar's support choices with the various characters is that the player would have no way to know that during character creation, so they could feel like they'd be punished for something they had no control over (an avatar unable to support with their favorite characters).

So leave a note at character creation "This will affect which characters the Avatar can support with" when choosing their personality.

[Lofrof]

Boob slider,.. yes.

[MCProductions]

A few additions.

I don't mind the Avatar being the Main Character, and hell I really like Robin and Corrin as characters, but if the game wants me to treat them as me, and not characters I make up like I usually do, then Mass Effect the shit out of them. FE12's Avatar creation did this right, with the player deciding your backstory and shit, but FE13 and ESPECIALLY 14 drop the ball on this. Tbf to Fates tho, Corrin originally WASN'T going to be an Avatar

Give me more superflourous choices with 2 or 3 that actually affect anything, but a shitton more that can rise different reactions out of characters and make the Avatar feel more like me. Gameplay wise, I think Corrin handled it best, I get the Avatar is going to be awesome as a unit because he's supposed to represent you, but do it the Fates method where they are good because of their versatility, not their ability to solo the game. Corrin's only problem in this regard is the Yato, which disencourages the player from using a non sword based class, tho this can be fixed by having the player decide what weapon type their pref is in character creation.

[TheWerdna]

I am in the minority of being fully okay with the player avatar being the main protagonist so long as they are well writen, given an actual arc with real character development, and not be made into a wish-fulfilment Mary Sue like a certain Avatar *cough*Corrin*cough*.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I think the way the Avatar is treated needs some major changes as a whole; we had Kris who legitimately reads like a self-insert fanfiction, then Robin the (as far as I define the term) Mary Sue and finally Corrin, who tones down the Sueness in favour of some extra helpings of wish fulfillment.

Honestly, I feel like they need to either tone-down or increase the self-insert aspects. Either make the player input appearance only and give them a defined personality or enable a greater degree of player decision-making in regards to personality and actions throughout the game, because the current approach feels too unfocused.

The option to play as a beast unit would be nice.

[bowfaire]

I can't bring myself to view the avatars as myself, I always view them as their own characters, but if the next game does include the avatar system they should change a lot of things about it.

1. Skin colour customization. You can make yourself have super long bright pink hair and you can transform into a dragon but you can't have dark skin. FE logic.

2. Preset relationships. In Awakening your avatar was introduced to a wide cast of characters and you developed close relationships with them. In Fates, the second you start out you have your maids, a butler, your siblings and like 500 other people that you're close to. It'd be nicer if it could show your avatar getting introduced to them instead of Corrin knowing them extremely well off the bat when we don't know them that well.

3. The personality for Corrin is alright for me, though they annoy me, their personality in Conquest irritates me to no end. Conquest is supposed to be about a rise to glory and bloodshed, but all we get is Corrin, our self-insert, saying they chose this path to "sort out peace between everyone". This might seem nitpicky but Corrin explaining why they chose Conquest isn't the reason that most people chose Conquest. Corrin even says they told their troops not to kill any Hoshidan soldiers in their battles. It's almost like they're guilt tripping us, just let us kill some people...

4. Again, more ranting on personality—you should be able to do something funky in your avatar customization to change their personality. I know that it'd be difficult to make the plot change drastically based on how your avatar acts, but you could add tiny things to change it.

You can have a blurb to represent personality in the character customization screen, and similar to the boon/bane system, you can choose between two personality traits to represent your avatar. Such as being able to choose between being a pacifist/warmonger or optimist/pessimist. Way better than Corrin wanting to save everyone, lol. *shoots an angry look at conquest*

I also wouldn't mind them completely abandoning the avatar system and they could remake some of the older games for a newer system. I've had enough rainbow haired waifu simulators with bad protagonists in the past few years.

[NekoKnight]

I think the way the Avatar is treated needs some major changes as a whole; we had Kris who legitimately reads like a self-insert fanfiction, then Robin the (as far as I define the term) Mary Sue and finally Corrin, who tones down the Sueness in favour of some extra helpings of wish fulfillment.

Can you really argue that Kamui is less of a Sue when:

-he is the royalty of 3 kingdoms

-has a legendary sword

-he is literally the chosen one

-has the exclusive ability to turn into a dragon

-several character's existences revolve around him,

-people praise and love him despite (or even because of) his flaws

-the villains are personally invested in destroying him despite having no reason to

-he can end battle without killing a single person, if he wants to

He's more special than Micaiah, and Micaiah didn't have the plot humping her leg like Fates does with Kamui. What makes something "wish fulfillment" and something a Sue?

[Time the Crestfallen]

Can you really argue that Kamui is less of a Sue when:

-he is the royalty of 3 kingdoms

-has a legendary sword

-he is literally the chosen one

-has the exclusive ability to turn into a dragon

-several character's existences revolve around him,

-people praise and love him despite (or even because of) his flaws

-the villains are personally invested in destroying him despite having no reason to

-he can end battle without killing a single person, if he wants to

He's more special than Micaiah, and Micaiah didn't have the plot humping her leg like Fates does with Kamui. What makes something "wish fulfillment" and something a Sue?

Because this is how I define a sue:

[spoiler=Shamelessly taken from Tvtropes] Y'know, I think I understand the Mary Sue a little better now. What makes a Sue isn't that they have limitless powers and quirks and "special" qualities... it's need. Mary Sues are generally "chosen ones," destined to save others. The world revolves around them as a perfect crystal star. But it's all window dressing... there's no room in the story for anyone else to truly help them better themselves, denying them the potential for growth and increased empathy. They love people, but they don't need them. But Kirk, the Doctor, Wolverine... they DO need people. They have flaws which require the presence of others to counteract. Kirk is headstrong and cocksure, the Doctor can get lost in his god-complex and lose perspective, Wolverine just goes nuts sometimes. While they're certainly brilliantly capable, to be at their very best they must connect with those around them. Even Superman needs to be brought down to Earth by Batman now and then. But each Sue is an island. This may be the key to their downfall, because this is why no one loves them like they seem to think they should. They don't NEED to connect with others for support, their empathy is purely cosmetic. They're each designed so that they can handle any situation with nothing but their own perfect attributes.

That's why I define Corrin as wish fulfillment rather than a Mary Sue; because despite all the cool stuff they get to play with (legendary sword, dragon, ETC), he needed other characters to help them succeed. Xander saves them from Saizo in chapter 3, without Azura he doesn't become sane again in Chapter 5 or get his dragonstone to control that power or learn about Valla on Revelation or escape Fort Dragonfall in Birthright Chapter 20 or kill the final bosses, since all of them have to be weakened by Azura's singing. Yes, Corrin gets his legendary sword, but it doesn't become more powerful unless he connects with the royal brothers. When Corrin says they succeed because of the bonds they make with others, it's true.

Kris is the worst of the Avatars in regards to sueness because they make everyone else look useless; because everyone else is so utterly reliant on Kris that it's almost comical, you could replace the entire cast with generic faceless goons and it wouldn't make much of a difference since the only people who are actually needed are the ones who carry a special weapon needed to kill a specific villain (Marth with Falchion and Michalis with Starlight).

Robin is mildly better in this regard, because there are definitely moments where other characters feel needed (Lucina and her time travel shenanigans for example), but for the most part it's just Robin being so unrealistically good at tactics that the other characters feel unnecessary, with chapters 13, 18, 19 and 23 feeling so masturbatory that I'm surprised they don't start with the enemy immediately surrendering because of how awesome Robin is before sucking them off. Despite all the talk of how Robin is successful because of their 'invisible ties', it felt like complete bullshit since Robin's tactics had rendered everyone else irrelevant (at least to me) to the point that they didn't really need to be there.

[Thane]

That's why I define Corrin as wish fulfillment rather than a Mary Sue; because despite all the cool stuff they get to play with (legendary sword, dragon, ETC), he needed other characters to help them succeed. Xander saves them from Saizo in chapter 3, without Azura he doesn't become sane again in Chapter 5 or get his dragonstone to control that power or learn about Valla on Revelation or escape Fort Dragonfall in Birthright Chapter 20 or kill the final bosses, since all of them have to be weakened by Azura's singing. Yes, Corrin gets his legendary sword, but it doesn't become more powerful unless he connects with the royal brothers. When Corrin says they succeed because of the bonds they make with others, it's true.

I usually try avoid using and debating with the term "Mary Sue" since it more often than not leads to debates about what the term actually means. While everyone can roughly agree on the fundamentals (most of the time - some say Mary Sues can't exist outside of fanfiction), the details always vary.

However, I need to interject here. Collecting your siblings like a power up and then say that their strength mattered is a throwaway line that means absolutely nothing. What do the other siblings contribute in Revelation? It's Corrin and Azura's show all the way, and everyone else in the cast is relegated to a prop or someone to spout exposition and deliver the occasional line to remind us of their existence.

I'd actually even say that Mary Sues in part need to rely on other characters from time to time so that they can revel in the attention. Yes, Corrin gets saved, but it's usually so that they can be pampered afterwards.

[Lord_Grima]

it felt like complete bullshit since Robin's tactics had rendered everyone else irrelevant (at least to me) to the point that they didn't really need to be there.

Robin can solo Awakening, no shame in that.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I usually try avoid using and debating with the term "Mary Sue" since it more often than not leads to debates about what the term actually means. While everyone can roughly agree on the fundamentals (most of the time - some say Mary Sues can't exist outside of fanfiction), the details always vary.

However, I need to interject here. Collecting your siblings like a power up and then say that their strength mattered is a throwaway line that means absolutely nothing. What do the other siblings contribute in Revelation? It's Corrin and Azura's show all the way, and everyone else in the cast is relegated to a prop or someone to spout exposition and deliver the occasional line to remind us of their existence.

I'd actually even say that Mary Sues in part need to rely on other characters from time to time so that they can revel in the attention. Yes, Corrin gets saved, but it's usually so that they can be pampered afterwards.

You say that as if 'the power of friendship' isn't a well-established theme in fiction. Yes, they don't do much, but what they do meant the difference between sunshine and bunnies happy ending and getting splattered by Anankos/Garon/Notkumi, so saying that it meant nothing isn't really fair. Besides, the 'Corrin and Azura + the royals sometimes' show appeals to me a lot more than 'Robin and some chumps that do nothing' show.

I get what you're saying, but I personally define a sue by how useful other characters are. A character that fails once every so often so they can be pampered is, to me, less obnoxious than the character who is perfect and infallible, so everyone else might as well not bother.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Phillius

[Thane]

You say that as if 'the power of friendship' isn't a well-established theme in fiction. Yes, they don't do much, but what they do meant the difference between sunshine and bunnies happy ending and getting splattered by Anankos/Garon/Notkumi, so saying that it meant nothing isn't really fair. Besides, the 'Corrin and Azura + the royals sometimes' show appeals to me a lot more than 'Robin and some chumps that do nothing' show.

I get what you're saying, but I personally define a sue by how useful other characters are. A character that fails once every so often so they can be pampered is, to me, less obnoxious than the character who is perfect and infallible, so everyone else might as well not bother.

I don't. I say that it's horribly executed in Fates, much like the overwhelming majority of the things in the game that have to do with the writing. First of all, the power of friendship it rings hollow due to the brothers' absence in the main story in Revelation. Secondly, it shows just how superfluous the sisters are from a story perspective, highlighting the overambition of the game and how the narrative is barely kept together.

Compare this to a game that does this well, like Persona 4, where every member is instrumental in progressing and the main character's powers grow the deeper their bonds are. It's cheesy as all hell, but it's an established concept from the get-go, never strays from it and the payoff in the end is satisfying and honestly pretty damn touching - Corrin powering up their sword because they collected their brothers like pokémon is not.

I also understand what you're saying, but when the characters go so far out of their way to excuse any flaws Corrin might have and even praise them for it like in that horrible "subplot" with Anthony, I can't stand it. Of course I want a character that isn't perfect, but Corrin is rarely portrayed as anything but, and when they are, it's dismissed as a harmless little quirk or not mentioned at all. For example, their naïvité - it should make every soldier quake in their boots since there's a good chance they'll be given idiotic orders by such a poor strategist, but that's never really addressed.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I don't. I say that it's horribly executed in Fates, much like the overwhelming majority of the things in the game that have to do with the writing. First of all, the power of friendship it rings hollow due to the brothers' absence in the main story in Revelation. Secondly, it shows just how superfluous the sisters are from a story perspective, highlighting the overambition of the game and how the narrative is barely kept together.

Compare this to a game that does this well, like Persona 4, where every member is instrumental in progressing and the main character's powers grow the deeper their bonds are. It's cheesy as all hell, but it's an established concept from the get-go, never strays from it and the payoff in the end is satisfying and honestly pretty damn touching - Corrin powering up their sword because they collected their brothers like pokémon is not.

I also understand what you're saying, but when the characters go so far out of their way to excuse any flaws Corrin might have and even praise them for it like in that horrible "subplot" with Anthony, I can't stand it. Of course I want a character that isn't perfect, but Corrin is rarely portrayed as anything but, and when they are, it's dismissed as a harmless little quirk or not mentioned at all. For example, their naïvité - it should make every soldier quake in their boots since there's a good chance they'll be given idiotic orders by such a poor strategist, but that's never really addressed.

I acknowledge that it wasn't done well and that they didn't do a whole lot, but the point is that it happened. Without the brothers, they'd all get crushed by any of the end-game bosses. That already makes them more vital than Chrom, since Awakening decided that letting anyone get to do something cool was boring and that Robin should be able to kill Grima permanently and then come back afterward with no consequences whatsoever.

There's also the issue of Robin's flaws, in that they don't have any. Yes, Corrin's flaws are excused, treated as a good thing or outright ignored but the very fact that they exist is reason enough for me to put them above Robin and Kris, who are essentially flawless.

[PeaceRibbon]

First of all don't allow the player to commit incest. That's a whole other topic, but still doesn't hurt to put it out there though.

Ok, if we wanted to do a more projection of self with this, I'd recommend a dialogue options system similar to Xenoblade Chronicles X. Not only would it help you get more support affinity, but it'd also show a clearer personality difference between playthroughs all without impacting the story, unless it's a side quest. That's where you could get multiple outcomes.

Allowing you to easily start with a different class would be ideal too, but only if the dialogue reflected your particular class. I only played a little bit of FE 12 and probably won't go back unless it gets a real release in the west (and if Earthbound 1 can get a release in 2015, FE 12 can be somewhere down the line), but one major issue with the writing for the game was reflecting your chosen class. The supports with certain characters and the avatar felt so awkward with a mage doing intensive weapons training. You could argue the same with Awakening and Fates, but then again they expect you to keep the default class so that's kind of our fault (and yes, my fates avatar is a monk).

Finally, MORE HAIRSTYLES!!! :P

[Thane]

I acknowledge that it wasn't done well and that they didn't do a whole lot, but the point is that it happened. Without the brothers, they'd all get crushed by any of the end-game bosses. That already makes them more vital than Chrom, since Awakening decided that letting anyone get to do something cool was boring and that Robin should be able to kill Grima permanently and then come back afterward with no consequences whatsoever.

There's also the issue of Robin's flaws, in that they don't have any. Yes, Corrin's flaws are excused, treated as a good thing or outright ignored but the very fact that they exist is reason enough for me to put them above Robin and Kris, who are essentially flawless.

I'm sorry, but there's nothing I can say to such an argument. "It happened" is not something that makes me accept whatever the writers throw at me, and it can excuse literally anything in any form of media. You want to know what else "happened"? Garon was teleported to Anankos and swallowed and then forgotten about in the next chapter to finish a plot thread that would've been left hanging otherwise and this was their only way of finishing it after having written themselves into a corner. The list of things that just randomly happened can be made very long.

I also don't understand what Awakening has to do with anything here, but I'll play along - I'm not a big fan of avatars in general, but I find Robin better than Corrin in pretty much every single aspect, from design to role in the story. You say that Robin is flawless, but he fails in rescuing Emmeryn and feels like he lets everyone down. I won't say it's a major feat that makes his character complex, because it doesn't, but I guess you could say "the point is that it happened".

[Time the Crestfallen]

I'm sorry, but there's nothing I can say to such an argument. "It happened" is not something that makes me accept whatever the writers throw at me, and it can excuse literally anything in any form of media. You want to know what else "happened"? Garon was teleported to Anankos and swallowed and then forgotten about in the next chapter to finish a plot thread that would've been left hanging otherwise and this was their only way of finishing it after having written themselves into a corner. The list of things that just randomly happened can be made very long.

I also don't understand what Awakening has to do with anything here, but I'll play along - I'm not a big fan of avatars in general, but I find Robin better than Corrin in pretty much every single aspect, from design to role in the story. You say that Robin is flawless, but he fails in rescuing Emmeryn and feels like he lets everyone down. I won't say it's a major feat that makes his character complex, because it doesn't, but I guess you could say "the point is that it happened".

You don't have to like it, but saying that it doesn't count because X is less of an argument then what I just made. If you don't like the way the power of friendship was used in Fates because it was written poorly, that doesn't mean it isn't the power of friendship, it means it was poorly written. Just because the way Corrin relies on others in that one specific example (not going into all the ways they get help from Azura) is poorly written doesn't mean they didn't rely on them and you arguing 'it's poorly written, so it doesn't count' comes across as needlessly pedantic.

Awakening has to do with the discussion because I stated why I didn't like each of the Avatars (Kris= Mary Sue + Wish Fulfillment, Robin = Mary Sue, Corrin = Wish Fulfillment), Neko asked why I thought Corrin was less of a Sue than Robin and I explained that I define Mary Sue differently than he does, using Robin as an example. On that matter, how is Robin's plan failing because Aversa summoned a group of Risen archers out of nowhere, an ability that was never foreshadowed and Robin had no way of knowing about before hand, a failure on there part? How is it a flaw on Robins part that their plan worked nearly perfectly right up until they got screwed by such an ability? If I could say 'that just happened', then you could say 'it doesn't count because the writing wasn't very good'.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Phillius