Lilith?

[Man of Many Faces]

I have been wondering does anyone know why Lilith doesn't have any battle animation?

[BrightBow]

Presumably because her only weapon is long range, so they would have to figure out how to express that in an 3D enviroment.

[VeryAngryBisharp]

Too lazy to do it? Just like they were too lazy to make a Female Grandmaster model.

[Alastor15243]

Too lazy to do it? Just like they were too lazy to make a Female Grandmaster model.

Too lazy to even import it.

[NekoKnight]

Presumably because her only weapon is long range, so they would have to figure out how to express that in an 3D enviroment.

There is no distinction between the animation of 2 range and 3 range weapons so I presume they'd just make her attack done as it were two range, if they wanted to.

[shadowofchaos]

Too lazy to even import it.

Keep in mind, the animations are made from scratch.

The data formats for the assets in Before Awakening DLC are drastically different than Awakening.

I wouldn't be surprised if the models were made from scratch too.

Be aware of their limitations before you say "they were to lazy to do task A".

Especially for fanservice.

They had zero reason to make a female grandmaster model.

Edited October 2, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Emerson]

Like it was said, I'd assume that it being long range had something to do with it. I guess they didn't feel like just making a transition between 2 locations.

Or they didn't feel like actually animating the Lillith model beyond her few story scenes and the basic animation from the close-up.

They had zero reason to make a female grandmaster model.

Aside from the original class being both genders. And both Female and Male Robin existing in Smash.

And males having 2 more exclusive classes than the females, leading me to believe it may have been planned for multigender but then scrapped because of either lazyness or the Female Robin amiibo not being made.

[shadowofchaos]

You forget, those amiibo classes are also fanservice, which are extras.

As in, they were included because it was encouraging amiibo sales. And the advertised one was the male Reflet.

What incentive was there to make the female version? As in, smash having gender options does not signify all the development team's outlook on the content.

There is no evidence that there was a female grandmaster class planned. Usually, scrapped content such as Leopold in Awakening have tags left over.

This is literally the Roy amiibo expectations all over again.

My view is that calling them out on "laziness" over free extras is bordering on entitlement. (Directed towards original quoted user, not TrueEm)

Edited October 2, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Alastor15243]

My view is that calling them out on "laziness" over free extras is bordering on entitlement. (Directed towards original quoted user, not TrueEm)

Alright, yes, Lilith maybe, though I can still say that Lilith was a totally superfluous character that they should have either put more effort into or at least not tried to make us care about them (anyone who's played Birthright or Conquest knows what I'm talking about).

But seeing how the grandmaster and other amiibo classes are not free extras, but dlc and amiibo exclusive content, there's no reason to think that it would be unreasonable to expect gender parity for those just like with the main game, and I don't see how anything but laziness could be the reason they didn't put the same effort into the DLC that they put into the main classes.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Alastor15243

[shadowofchaos]

But seeing how the grandmaster and other amiibo classes are not free extras, but dlc and amiibo exclusive content, there's no reason to think that it would be unreasonable to expect gender parity for those just like with the main game, and I don't see how anything but laziness could be the reason they didn't put the same effort into the DLC that they put into the main classes.

But they are.

Because those interested in the Smash amiibos in the first place was given extra incentives to obtain them if they haven't already.

Those amiibos were out long before Fates came out.

And those classes were in development long before DLC was even conceived.

The DLC was only there so you could access unlimited seals to use those cart classes.

Edited October 2, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Alastor15243]

But they are.

Because those interested in the Smash amiibos in the first place was given extra incentives to obtain them if they haven't already.

Those amiibos were out long before Fates came out.

That doesn't mean they didn't cost money to buy. And besides, the gender-locking is only relevant to those who paid money for the DLC that lets you turn other characters into them. So yes, it's flat-out paid content that is less complete than the main game's content.

[shadowofchaos]

That doesn't mean they didn't cost money to buy. And besides, the gender-locking is only relevant to those who paid money for the DLC that lets you turn other characters into them. So yes, it's flat-out paid content that is less complete than the main game's content.

That paid content in figures also ceased to be relevant in mainstream and was only given as fanservice.

When they give you an extra such as extra characters, a completely new musical arrangement for Marth, items to make your characters able to access those legacy character classes, and focus on "they didn't give us our expectations of gender equality" as laziness... it's sounding like the complaints of a spoiled child.

Edited October 2, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[BANRYU]

(as relevant as this is to the orignal topic lol)

I am in the camp that wishes that there was a female Grandmaster option, however I think it's a bit harsh to say that it's out of laziness.

Because even though having a female Grandmaster option would be nice, yeah, I get why they probably didn't.

Looking at other DLC classes, I think specifically of the two that ARE gender-neutral-- Dreadfighter and Darkflier. What do these have in common? Both reuse battle animations of other classes already in the game. Thus, the only work required for them is to create the models (and tweak animations slightly for other weapon types, which I don't imagine would take nearly as much time). ALL of the other DLC classes (at least, that I can remember) have specific and singular character models and battle animations, thus, creating both the model and the animation for both genders of any given class has the potential to take twice as long. Thus, Grandmaster only comes in male; they likely didn't have the time/budget to create the female version of Grandmaster.

So yeah, I agree it's disappointing, but to call it a 'lazy' decision displays a severe amount of ignorance and lack of appreciation for how not-easy it is to make games IMO.

Edited October 2, 2016 by BANRYU

[Alastor15243]

That paid content in figures also ceased to be relevant in mainstream and was only given as fanservice.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this, your wording is a little hard to parse. I want to make sure I understand what you mean before i respond.

Looking at other DLC classes, I think specifically of the two that ARE gender-neutral-- Dreadfighter and Darkflier. What do these have in common? Both reuse battle animations of other classes already in the game.

Wait what? What battle animation does Dark Flier reuse for tomes? Malig knight's? I remember their tome animations being completely different.

[BANRYU]

Wait what? What battle animation does Dark Flier reuse for tomes? Malig knight's? I remember their tome animations being completely different.

I hope you're not trying to overturn the point I was making by bringing up this very small flaw/exception in my explanation. Because that would be a terrible argument. You're also ignoring the parenthetical I wrote immediately AFTER the sentence you're quoting, but whatever.

Yeah, pegasus classes don't have a tome animation, so it's entirely possible they made that fresh for the class. You know what though, it's functionally just a person raising their arm up, so, yeah, not exactly a large amount of extra work even if they have to do it for both classes (and not that I know how the models for mounted units work but hell, IF the character and the mount are modeled separately all they would need to do is copy the MK's tome animation on the person and just do whatever they needed for the pegasus).

My point still stands, so thanks for bringing up this superfluous counterpoint.

Edited October 2, 2016 by BANRYU

[Alastor15243]

I hope you're not trying to overturn the point I was making by bringing up this very small flaw/exception in my explanation. Because that would be a terrible counterpoint.

Yeah, pegasus classes don't have a tome animation, so it's entirely possible they made that fresh for the class. You know what though, it's functionally just a person raising their arm up, so, yeah, not exactly a large amount of extra work even if they have to do it for both classes. Point still stands, but thanks for bringing up this superfluous counterpoint.

Two things:

1: That was genuine confusion, I thought I might be having a memory lapse and I wanted to make sure. I did not mean it to sound like snark.

2: There is a pretty flashy killing blow animation where the dark falcon stands up on their horse to cast the spell, so it wasn't entirely just lifting an arm up.

[shadowofchaos]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this, your wording is a little hard to parse. I want to make sure I understand what you mean before i respond.

Wait what? What battle animation does Dark Flier reuse for tomes? Malig knight's? I remember their tome animations being completely different.

What I mean is that the FE amiibos demand had gone down tremendously by the time the game had even been announced.

Their motivation with including Marth, Ike, Reflet, and Lucina in the game was to simply create hype for the game during that direct with stuff the FE fans already had or wanted to get in the first place.

While it's fine to be disappointed in the lack of dual gender options, I feel like it is a lack of appreciation to call it laziness akin to people complaining about the Roy amiibo not getting a patch for Fates. As someone who has looked into 3ds hacking Fates... making this crap is hard.

[BANRYU]

1: That was genuine confusion, I thought I might be having a memory lapse and I wanted to make sure. I did not mean it to sound like snark.

2: There is a pretty flashy killing blow animation where the dark falcon stands up on their horse to cast the spell, so it wasn't entirely just lifting an arm up.

Ah I see, I mistook your confusion as being defensive about the original point of laziness. My apologies!

And you're quite right, I looked into it (as I don't have the DLC myself lol;;) and didn't wait for the whole set of animations play out, that's very much my mistake. I do, however, think that the original point still largely stands and that extra animations for both genders (though TBH after watching again, it seems very much as though the Darkflier animations may be gender-neutral) is not nearly equivalent to the amount of work needed for the female Grandmaster.

I apologize for my caustic tone, however. ~__~ That was highly unnecessary of me.

[Alastor15243]

What I mean is that the FE amiibos demand had gone down tremendously by the time the game had even been announced.

Their motivation with including Marth, Ike, Reflet, and Lucina in the game was to simply create hype for the game during that direct with stuff the FE fans already had or wanted to get in the first place.

While it's fine to be disappointed in the lack of dual gender options, I feel like it is a lack of appreciation to call it laziness akin to people complaining about the Roy amiibo not getting a patch for Fates. As someone who has looked into 3ds hacking Fates... making this crap is hard.

I agree and understand regarding the amiibo, I get that they're a gimmick and there's probably little motivation to put much effort into the features. But again, the gender-lock is an issue with the DLC, and if I'm paying 5-12.5% of the price of one of the campaigns for one map and one class, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that class to be as complete as the classes the game came with.

Ah I see, I mistook your confusion as being defensive about the original point of laziness. My apologies!

And you're quite right, I looked into it (as I don't have the DLC myself lol;;) and didn't wait for the whole set of animations play out, that's very much my mistake. I do, however, think that the original point still largely stands and that extra animations for both genders (though TBH after watching again, it seems very much as though the Darkflier animations may be gender-neutral) is not nearly equivalent to the amount of work needed for the female Grandmaster.

I apologize for my caustic tone, however. ~__~ That was highly unnecessary of me.

No worries.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Alastor15243

[shadowofchaos]

It's that expectation is what I mean.

It's not unreasonable to have the expectation, but it's also unreasonable to attribute it to laziness.

Especially if a developer in other areas such as myself can see the reasons why the did it.

[BANRYU]

...Can I just say, with regards to the original topic...

Lilith has an eating-happiness animation in the game... Could her little happy backflip not work as an attack (or even healing too) animation...?? So... While I don't really care, it seems like they COULD have done this if they wanted to lol. Just decided not to for whatever reason....?? Go figure.

It's not unreasonable to have the expectation, but it's also unreasonable to attribute it to laziness.

This, pretty much. (Way to say what I was trying to say in infinitely fewer words OTL ;;; )

You can't appreciate how hard it is to make a game until you try it yourself.

And then you see the sheer amount of content in a game like this and you think to yourself, 'well shit this is... actually pretty amazing when you think about it...'

Edited October 2, 2016 by BANRYU