Diverse Chapter Objectives

[Jotari]

So long ago Sieze used to be the only objective we really had in Fire Emblem. Defeat the boss was sort of around for final bosses but generally it was just seize. Then came Thracia and Blazing Blade and we started getting more diverse chapter objectives like survive, escape and rout. Which have (kind of) become staples in the series. Does anyone have any more ideas as to where the franchise can go from here when it comes to chapter objectives? Diversity in chapter objectives is usually seen as a good thing but is there any more types of objectives we could really have or do the main ones we've seen already cover all the bases?

[Thane]

I think the most important part is making sure the map is fun to play; adding a different objective doesn't necessarily guarantee a map becoming more fun to play.

That being said, while it would require a certain kind of plot or character, I wouldn't mind a stealing objective. Like, you know one out of three or four people has an item you need, and you need to grab it either undetected or while your army is holding off waves of enemies, which would mean you'd have the normal strategizing element on one side of the map and more of a puzzle style on another.

[Koumal8]

Escort missions sound fun (and I think Elibian Knights has a few, doesn't it?).

I wouldn't mind more maps similar to SS Ch6, just make rescuing green units the actual main goal and not a side one.

[Quintessence]

I think the most important part is making sure the map is fun to play; adding a different objective doesn't necessarily guarantee a map becoming more fun to play.

That being said, while it would require a certain kind of plot or character, I wouldn't mind a stealing objective. Like, you know one out of three or four people has an item you need, and you need to grab it either undetected or while your army is holding off waves of enemies, which would mean you'd have the normal strategizing element on one side of the map and more of a puzzle style on another.

This sounds good. Nowadays this can be translated on "defeat the boss" or "rout" and the unit in question might have the item/weapon in green (droppable). But this would add more depth imo, at least incorporating stealth on the game. Imagine a map with fog of war in a castle, where you have to get a valuable/plot item, while avoiding an army of OP foes. Once you get the item you can escape from a secret exit or something. That'd be interesting.

Something like escort has already been slightly implemented with partner units in Tellius but would be nice as a whole objective. Why not something like Repair buildings, or Heal/Sustain a unit for X turns? There might be some cool stuff to be added.

[Jotari]

We've had objectives where you've had to seize multiple points at once in either to open something but I think this could work if instead of switches, those size points where multiple different castles that for some reason you needed to conquer all at once with the enemy sending forces out to try and reconquer that you might occasionally need to retreat from. Or, for something more outright different, maybe something like 8 points on the map you have to sieze with a turn limit and by the end you just need to have control of more territory than the opponent.

[Ryo]

Escort missions are only fun when you don't have to baby stupid NPC units who have no sense of self preservation and actively charge into enemy range for absolutely no reason like certain prologues in the 3DS games.

[Koumal8]

Escort missions are only fun when you don't have to baby stupid NPC units who have no sense of self preservation and actively charge into enemy range for absolutely no reason like certain prologues in the 3DS games.

I... honestly don't know what you're talking about. Enlightenment, please?

Also, what did people think about Ch15 of Conquest, where you could have just escaped from the right side of the upper isle but there was the option of also fighting on the lower island as well for I-can't-remember-what-reward? Personally, I really liked the idea, if only the Azura doppelganger could have had some use...

[Ryo]

I... honestly don't know what you're talking about. Enlightenment, please?

In Awakening there's a chapter where you have to protect unarmed villagers - if you want to get the largest prizes - who would get one-shot by nearly every enemy on the map if they walk into enemy range... and they actively do so. It's extremely infuriating considering that you've just wasted a whole Rescue staff on them just for them to do so again. And it's even more ridiculous because there were obviously safer paths for them to walk. Thankfully this was optional because it's impossible on Lunatic where even your own units have trouble holding their own. Severa was also stupid in her paralogue but at least it wasn't so hard to keep her alive.

In Sophie's paralogue in Fates, you are presented with the same situation with suicidal villagers. This time you have to block their path with your own units to manipulate them into walking the safer path if you cannot kill all of the nearby enemies in time.

I don't mind escorting or protecting NPCs but if they're that stupid for no logical reason then it would feel more like a chore.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Ryo

[MCProductions]

Honestly really liked Severa's paralouge tbh

I think Conquest and FE5 did multiple objectives best, having different goals for the main objective than Seize means little imo bar defend and FE5 escape, and FE5 escape was different for the wrong damn reason, but if you have to do it, give me a lot of optional shit to work with, be it villages I need to reach, gaiden requirement to fulfill, a recruitable, or hell, just dump dropable stat boosters to give me a incentive to tackle the map the harder way.

[Esme]

Escort missions are only fun when you don't have to baby stupid NPC units who have no sense of self preservation and actively charge into enemy range for absolutely no reason like certain prologues in the 3DS games.

FUCKING DRAGON'S DOGMA AAAAAUUUUUGHHHHH

Adding on to this: Give them decent stats/equipment so they can at least defend themselves if need be.

[Quintessence]

We've had objectives where you've had to seize multiple points at once in either to open something but I think this could work if instead of switches, those size points where multiple different castles that for some reason you needed to conquer all at once with the enemy sending forces out to try and reconquer that you might occasionally need to retreat from. Or, for something more outright different, maybe something like 8 points on the map you have to sieze with a turn limit and by the end you just need to have control of more territory than the opponent.

You're basically describing FE4 lol. Jokes aside, FE7 Ch. 25 (Crazed Beast) did this, which was good.

Still, I think some more balance in objectives is always welcome.

[Avarice Shadow]

Escort missions sounds like a cool thing to have more of. Also maybe we could have objectives like assassinate and escape? I've been playing a lot of XCOM lately and the game has a similar objective, so I think transitioning that into Fire Emblem would be a very different type of experience.

[Thane]

Escort missions sounds like a cool thing to have more of. Also maybe we could have objectives like assassinate and escape? I've been playing a lot of XCOM lately and the game has a similar objective, so I think transitioning that into Fire Emblem would be a very different type of experience.

That sounds awesome! Of course, if we were the villains, we'd just be able to teleport away while laughing maniacally.

[Lord Glenn]

We've had objectives where you've had to seize multiple points at once in either to open something but I think this could work if instead of switches, those size points where multiple different castles that for some reason you needed to conquer all at once with the enemy sending forces out to try and reconquer that you might occasionally need to retreat from. Or, for something more outright different, maybe something like 8 points on the map you have to sieze with a turn limit and by the end you just need to have control of more territory than the opponent.

You're basically describing FE4 lol. Jokes aside, FE7 Ch. 25 (Crazed Beast) did this, which was good.

Still, I think some more balance in objectives is always welcome.

I know it's something that multiple people have said in the past (and many more will likely say in the future), but it's honestly something like this that would be a great blend of FE and Advance Wars mechanics. FE4 does have the most natural fit to this by way of its larger maps, but imagine if you set it up such that each allied and enemy castle had designated commanders (i.e. an Arden to sit at the castle and direct troops), each commander produced Ally (yellow) units of a certain type or preference (picture the game Dragon Force (Sega Saturn or the PS2 rerelease)), you could still field your other characters to roam around the battlefield, and there would be neutral castles/forts/towns that you could capture/occupy/ally with giving benefits to your army a la capturing neutral (grey) buildings in AW. Keep in the territory control instead of just making it a normal AW-type of map where you rout or capture the HQ and it might be a pretty fun type of map. Maybe even mix it up with something like a Control Point or Attack/Defend nature where you have to secure certain groupings of points (and maintain them) to "unlock" the next one in the chain?

It probably would drive the player crazy to do this in every single chapter of a game (especially if the enemy forces are large and there's a lot of Ally vs Enemy combat going on, given the lower ratio of player units to enemies), but it might be an interesting objective for the right game/project/story that could actually play into the actual plot so that you wouldn't just be throwing it in there to throw it in there.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Lord Glenn

[Jotari]

You're basically describing FE4 lol. Jokes aside, FE7 Ch. 25 (Crazed Beast) did this, which was good.

Still, I think some more balance in objectives is always welcome.

That comment was actually born from my desire to see Holy War do something more interesting with its castles as I was writing this comment in FionordeQuesters Max Rank Let's Play.

Having a rank for castle seems like a bit of a waste to me. I mean there's not really many optional castles in the game. You basically are expected to capture all of them. I think maybe the one you recruit Aless with in order to save the dancer is probably skippable and maybe some of the ones in Chapter 9, but overall it seems the game expects you to capture every enemy castle there is (even if the Chapter 9 ones are skippable {which I'm not at all sure they are, I just know you have to do them in an odd order to recruit the characters}, they're laid out in a full line so you'd have to intentionally leave one uncaptured). Some optional castles that are pretty awkward to capture but provide some kind of reward would be nice (and not a reward as large as a Dancer which is basically too good to pass up on. I'm talking things like a Resire tome). I'd also like if the game made more of an effort to recapture/ruin your castles. The way the game and chapters are set up kind of implies it's a wide open tactics affair and the first chapter even encourages you to stick Arden on the home castle but for 99% of the game you basically just move your entire army to the next chapter and conquer it before abandoning it for the next. Thracia and Fury are the only enemies I can think of who ever bother to flank you and take out your home base.

[Quintessence]

Yeah that's interesting. Personally, I like that setting, where the player has to conquer different villages, castles, etc., and defend them. However, this must be done with extreme caution in a ways to not replicate something like Warcraft where enemies attack you from nowhere. Also, it must be considered in a way to not overwhelm players that may state that such setting is extremely difficult or hardcore, given that casual population is relatively notable nowadays.

For instance, this would've worked incredibly well on FE10. Imagine Part 2 where Ludveck and its forces are assaulting Melior and ally castles, the player might be in a chapter where it controls different locations in paralel in the same chapter, like, Geoffrey and CRKs defending a castle, Lucia, Bastian and Volke going somewhere or doing a stealth mission getting an item, info or whatever, and Elincia and her bulky forces defending the capital. It would be pretty awesome. It may work in a similar fashion with Micaiah leading the DB and Pelleas leading Tauroneo, Jill and Zihark, all being controlled in the same chapter, doing different objectives or something. Man, I already want it happen.

[Roflolxp54]

Conquest/Revelation did a similar "seize multiple points for a clear" objective in the form of Siegbert's paralogue; the paralogue can only be cleared if all 10 Dragon Veins are activated before enemy rout; otherwise, there's endless reinforcements. There's also Chapters 18 and 25 in Revelation, which require multiple Dragon Vein activations before their respective bosses can be defeated.

Tiki's paralogue in Awakening is very much a Defend map just under the disguise of a Rout objective if you want to recruit Tiki.

Donnel's paralogue in Awakening can be considered an escort mission if you intend to recruit Donnel.

Revelation and Radiant Dawn I think each did a stealth mission.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Roflolxp54

[Topaz Light]

I think the most important part is making sure the map is fun to play; adding a different objective doesn't necessarily guarantee a map becoming more fun to play.

This is very true, and important to remember!

But I think it's equally important to remember that, when multiple types of map objectives are on the table, so too are more ways to make a map fun to play.

As for myself, personally, I'm in favor of diverse map objectives, if they're used intelligently and creatively and the map is built well around them. Having diverse map objectives also broadens what can be done with each map from a story perspective, too, so that's also a definite plus.

[NekoKnight]

One problem with certain maps with non-rout objectives is that you can still (and should, for exp) clear the map by killing every enemy. I think IS should try making more maps where it isn't possible or recommended to kill all the enemies because they are either too numerous or too powerful. Defend and Escape are obvious candidates but they could do other things like Raid (kill/destroy select targets to clear the map) or Rescue (sneak into a place to save a captured ally). Here are some basic scenario pitches:

-The enemy has your castle under siege with a large force so you must sneak out and destroy their supplies so they starve or retreat.

-Soldiers/citizens from your country were forcefully conscripted into the enemy army. Your goal is to avoid fighting them and assassinate the enemy general

-The main enemy force is too large to engage directly but by taking advantage of fog-of-war you can ambush them and capture their commander (to be used as a hostage later).

Edit: It would also be neat if later maps were effected by how well you cleared a prior map. For example, if you raided more of the enemy supplies, the enemies in the later map would have worse equipment or lower stats.

Edited January 8, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Thane]

NekoKnight, I'm confused...that sounds like strategy to me; there's no place for such things in a Fire Emblem game.

[ping]

-Soldiers/citizens from your country were forcefully conscripted into the enemy army. Your goal is to avoid fighting them and assassinate the enemy general

Radiant Dawn actually did something like that in that Crimean Knights chapter in part 2. You don't exactly get punished for slaughtering the rather underpowered, but numerous enemy forces, but iirc, the BEXP you get from keeping as many alive as possible is quite nice. PoR's map with the priests held hostage works this way, too.

My issue with defend chapters is that hardly any of them actually feel like you're defending. Most of the time, the turncount is rather a time limit to reach the optional treasure or the boss for that extra XP/some item drop. Chapter 10 of CQ seems to be better in that regard, but it's yet to be seen if it isn't merely the exception to the rule.

In general, I like the classic Seize objective because it gives both the designers and the player some flexibility in their approach. The player can either choose to go for the throne as fast as possible, only fighting the enemies he has to, or he can go for the rout because ignoring that XP would be wasteful, right? ;) It wouldn't be too hard to add a Protect NPC (or just a tile) to the objectives and some chests/villages paired with thieves/brigands can give the player some incentive to leave the direct route to the map objective in order to secure the loot.

In my opinion, most of the scenarios you suggested could easily be realized without any fancy new win conditions. It's all about the map - if the enemy has an overwhelming force that requires some divide-and-conquer to overcome, the designers could just divide them into smaller, manageable groups; but if the player engages one of the groups, some of the enemy soldiers will try to alert the neighboring group(s) which the player may want to prevent. Beating the groups could then be either optional (they drop some good items, or guard treasury) or necessary to reach the throne or a mix of both. But it wouldn't really be necessary to use any other objective than seize (/kill boss/arrive, since they kinda play out the same) to be unique.

Or, TL;DR:

I think the most important part is making sure the map is fun to play; adding a different objective doesn't necessarily guarantee a map becoming more fun to play.

[NekoKnight]

NekoKnight, I'm confused...that sounds like strategy to me; there's no place for such things in a Fire Emblem game.

It's not Fire Emblem unless "S rank a sibling" is a victory condition.

Radiant Dawn actually did something like that in that Crimean Knights chapter in part 2. You don't exactly get punished for slaughtering the rather underpowered, but numerous enemy forces, but iirc, the BEXP you get from keeping as many alive as possible is quite nice. PoR's map with the priests held hostage works this way, too.

My issue with defend chapters is that hardly any of them actually feel like you're defending. Most of the time, the turncount is rather a time limit to reach the optional treasure or the boss for that extra XP/some item drop. Chapter 10 of CQ seems to be better in that regard, but it's yet to be seen if it isn't merely the exception to the rule.

In general, I like the classic Seize objective because it gives both the designers and the player some flexibility in their approach. The player can either choose to go for the throne as fast as possible, only fighting the enemies he has to, or he can go for the rout because ignoring that XP would be wasteful, right? ;) It wouldn't be too hard to add a Protect NPC (or just a tile) to the objectives and some chests/villages paired with thieves/brigands can give the player some incentive to leave the direct route to the map objective in order to secure the loot.

In my opinion, most of the scenarios you suggested could easily be realized without any fancy new win conditions. It's all about the map - if the enemy has an overwhelming force that requires some divide-and-conquer to overcome, the designers could just divide them into smaller, manageable groups; but if the player engages one of the groups, some of the enemy soldiers will try to alert the neighboring group(s) which the player may want to prevent. Beating the groups could then be either optional (they drop some good items, or guard treasury) or necessary to reach the throne or a mix of both. But it wouldn't really be necessary to use any other objective than seize (/kill boss/arrive, since they kinda play out the same) to be unique.

Or, TL;DR:

The technical victory condition is just how the chapter ends. A chapter might be a defend chapter in all but name, even if technically it's a rout map (Tiki's Awakening chapter). More important than the victory condition is how the chapter requires/encourages you to play. Yes, the scenarios I came up with could fit under preexisting victory conditions but hopefully they would play differently. I don't think any of the Seize chapters we've had are any different than Rout unless you are doing LTC or are just impatient.

Bolded: I didn't really like that chapter in RD because to get to the boss you had to cut straight through the army of people you are trying not to kill. For all my efforts not to massacre them, I'm sure I spared 3 enemies. The PoR hostage chapter could at least be completed with careful unit placement and weapon choice.

[ping]

Bolded: I didn't really like that chapter in RD because to get to the boss you had to cut straight through the army of people you are trying not to kill. For all my efforts not to massacre them, I'm sure I spared 3 enemies. The PoR hostage chapter could at least be completed with careful unit placement and weapon choice.

Yeah, I had more fun with the priests, too. :D But Geoffrey's charge is still a simple Seize map that plays very different from your average map.

Fargus' gaiden from FE7 might be yet another example - it's an Arrive map under another name and the game gives you the option to either go 'stealthy' or just punch your way through the pirates.

[Quintessence]

I think it also has to do with us just reducing the maps to 'rout' because they can be reduced to such objective. However there are good examples where the player is limited to the objective, for example:

1-1, you have to escape, but it is really risky to rout the map because you have a turn limit, and the enemies are good enough to kill your units.

2-E, is a good example of a defend map. Exclude the 'kill the boss' alternate objective and the player will be forced to get through the 12 turns. The enemy army swarms you and it'll be pretty risky to rush through it. However, as turns pass, one can progress through the map until the boss.

3-13 is basically 2-E.

Some of them like Conquest 10 are good objective maps, but others are basically Rout or Seize.

[Jotari]

One problem with certain maps with non-rout objectives is that you can still (and should, for exp) clear the map by killing every enemy. I think IS should try making more maps where it isn't possible or recommended to kill all the enemies because they are either too numerous or too powerful. Defend and Escape are obvious candidates but they could do other things like Raid (kill/destroy select targets to clear the map) or Rescue (sneak into a place to save a captured ally). Here are some basic scenario pitches:

-The enemy has your castle under siege with a large force so you must sneak out and destroy their supplies so they starve or retreat.

-Soldiers/citizens from your country were forcefully conscripted into the enemy army. Your goal is to avoid fighting them and assassinate the enemy general

-The main enemy force is too large to engage directly but by taking advantage of fog-of-war you can ambush them and capture their commander (to be used as a hostage later).

Edit: It would also be neat if later maps were effected by how well you cleared a prior map. For example, if you raided more of the enemy supplies, the enemies in the later map would have worse equipment or lower stats.

That's why I'd like to see Bonus EXP make a return. It's a really great way of penalising or rewarding the player in a way that's significant, but not too significant. While the idea of taking out your enemies supplies and having it effect later chapters seems cool in concept, in practise I think it would serve to either make the final chapters even easier than they tend to be in a lot of games or just annoyingly difficult due to over inflated stats if it so happens that you didn't succeeded with some seemingly optional side content. I'd rather something like that lead to an outright different chapter down the line as armies find themselves in different positions with different advantages but still similarily balanced maps.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Jotari