Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[omegaxis1]

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Kaga has confirmed Gods and spirits can exist in the setting in his talk on tomes and staves. Most Dragons held Humans in contempt and refused to become Manaketes as Xane explained.

I'm not completely denying what Kaga said. I'm saying that it just feels off that we have Mila and Duma just be referred to as gods, but then we really never see them be involved in anything ever again. Even in Awakening, Mila is at best mentioned. The dragons that held humans in the most contempt was the Earth Dragons, which was confirmed in an interview regarding Loptyr in Genealogy. 

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

When the Divine Dragons fought the Earth Dragons they over-exhausted their dragonstones, and so practically became extinct.
Aside from Narga, only Gato, me and the just born Chiki survived.

Xane's words direct from Mystery, they died during the war.

This actually makes me wonder. This was from Mystery, and then in New Mystery, it was changed to them having a brutal war. In that case, would you consider that by New Mystery, the thing about the extinction being more of a retcon? 

But if most of the dragons expended their energy, its possible why they would die out more and more. That would explain why Naga also died afterwards when she was only 5000 years old, and since we see Bantu to be an old man at the time of Shadow Dragon and hinted to be still alive by Awakening, he's bound to be several thousand years older past Naga herself. 

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

It is a stretch. Also Duma and Mila are ultimately both non villainous characters, so it doesn't add grey. Instead it shows Divine Dragons are the only dragons that will get focus now.

 

8 hours ago, Party Moth said:

I would argue that Earth Dragons who are not only passive of humanity but actively attempting to guide it would be a far, far more unique aspect of grey morality.

Unless they retcon a bunch of stuff from Shadow Dragon/New/Mystery, we really can't have any Earth Dragons be part of this, since first they'll have to explain that not all Earth Dragons hold humans in contempt, then explaining that two Earth Dragons left, and then having that Naga never got involved with them despite how Divine and Earth Dragons are pretty much at odds. 

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

As mentioned, Xane can do that because of his personal experience and skill, not because he's a Divine Dragon. Again, there's no proof Divine Dragons can control other elements outside of using Tomes and other sealed magic.

Eh, at this point, Xane is sort of a wild card explanation and doesn't prove nor disprove either side of the argument. Its like, we can't just say its a Manakete ability, cause that doesn't make sense for the others, and it might not be a Divine Dragon thing since their dragon abilities are gone. 

8 hours ago, Party Moth said:

Also, Loptyr is a great example of old canon sneaking in exceptions to the stated Archanean canon, as Loptyr neither took manakete form nor went insane and was sealed away, a fact Naga was aware of yet unmentioned by the remaining dragons in Archanea.

Actually, it was confirmed that Naga DIDN'T know what Loptyr was up to until almost 200 years after the Divine Dragons won the war against the Earth Dragons. She went to Jugdral after realizing that. Not sure how she got that info, but she got it.

But given how this is an issue from another continent, Xane and Gotoh probably felt there was no need to delve into that story. Even though its potentially hinted that Marth descended from Sigurd/Seliph's bloodline.

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

A dragon with a shell and a single eye that shoots lasers, basically while resembling a dragon, it didn't resemble a Divine Dragon.

Simple. Cause Duma is an edgelord as stated by Werdna. No one understands even now why he has that laser eye. But he probably thought it made him look cool or a badass. 

And really, his original sprite is strange in how he looks like a SLIME MONSTER. Hell, everyone was wondering just WTF Duma was when Gaiden was out.

8 hours ago, Party Moth said:

Despite all this, Mila's manakete form doesn't even match prior Divine Dragons anyway (if anything, her tail is more like an FE3 wyvern's than any Divine Dragon we've seen in the series). This whole direction is a mess overall, though I can at least appreciate the developers' attempts to better streamline Valentia and Ylisse into the Archanean/Jugdrali lore.

 

1 hour ago, B.Leu said:

I also feel that changing what Mila did, or didin't and giving a role to Naga... debase, devalue what Ruru and Duma actually did. Like, as if we need her. Same as making them dragons.

I think that's the entire point. They're really trying to connect the lores of the verse they know exist in the same universe. Since Mila and Duma aren't mentioned so deeply around on what they are, how they came to be, it does make more sense for them to be dragons, but more specifically the Divine Dragons. Of course, this also makes the issue with the second Falchion, the timeline of the degeneration, etc.

 

[B.Leu]

It might be the entire point, thing is, it's still an entire sack bullcrap no matter how I look at it.

[omegaxis1]

31 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

It might be the entire point, thing is, it's still an entire sack bullcrap no matter how I look at it.

Is it? Is it really? I mean, turning two gods that had zero relations to the other events in the world despite being the same verse as Jugdral and Archanea into being very much connected to other games seems very good in my opinion. In my opinion, this makes Valentia even more awesome because it has more history and understanding than Valentia did before. 

[Tamanoir]

4 hours ago, B.Leu said:

It's really funny how far people go just to refuse that Mila and Duma being Divine Dragons is a blatant retcon. :p
Or at least, it would be.

Oh yeah, took a look at LPs of Gaiden. Pretty cool. Kind of want to slap Celica in the face though.
I also feel that changing what Mila did, or didin't and giving a role to Naga... debase, devalue what Ruru and Duma actually did. Like, as if we need her. Same as making them dragons.
Admitvely, Awakening already did that, but you know what I think of what Awakening did.

Saying SoV is a retcon of Gaiden is like saying ORAS retconend Emerald.

Gaiden is irrelevant to the discussion, because, clearly, this isn't Gaiden. (Berkut and Conrad shows this perfectly. Because, they are far bigger retcon.)

it's either because it's another dimension (and, even if it's a plot point nearly as awfull as Time Travel (because it's a cheap device that makes everything needlessly complicated if you try to think about i.), it's now canon. Thanks Awakening.), or because this is the "untold" version, truer to what "really" happened.

 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Tamanoir said:

it's either because it's another dimension (and, even if it's a plot point nearly as awfull as Time Travel (because it's a cheap device that makes everything needlessly complicated if you try to think about i.), it's now canon. Thanks Awakening.), or because this is the "untold" version, truer to what "really" happened.

Time travel wasn't as complicated or as confusing as people make it out to be for Awakening. But the "untold" version does make sense. Because let's face it, Gaiden doesn't actually give that much of the story that really makes sense, given the era they lived in. Giving a large expanded version would be ideal so that we can really understand these things much better.

[B.Leu]

ORAS doesn't retcon RSE, since it's a parallel universe... ah, I see what you mean. Not a bad mindset at all.
 

You say that multiple things in Gaiden doesn't make sense, and I very much agree, but replacing one weird thing a weirder and dumber thing is just not good; This particuliar one, I can't swallow it.
If they are not gods, how does this work then ? Mila can brings bounty to the earth and her servants, while Dudu can  hentai, petrifying and other such darkish powers. And you can pray to them for things, and actually have them on the spot. I ask again, how does this crap work, if they are dragons, and not gods ?

If I'm wrong, then please tell me, but no dragons ever in the series was shown to be able to do the kind of things those two are able to do. The only one that can compare to is, maybe, and that's a big maybe, Naga from Awakening who just use random powers when the writers ask, which basically sum up how seriously this one has to be taken. Time travel ? kay fuck it no prob. Useless upgrade ? kay no prob. Teleportation on an equally powerfuld dragon or across time and space in a random period that I asked you because reasons ? kay fuck it here ya go.

Fancy s/he didn't do those kind of thing n FE1/3, but now he/she is responsible of SoV. Whoope do. Is Naga the new Corrin or what ? In FE1/3, he's not even there originally.

Anankos ? Do I even have to talk about this stupid thing ?

No honestly, this is a pill I can't swallow, and say 'it make sense'. To me, it doesn't.
And I look at that and said to myself just how much they are going to bother people with Archa and dragons.

 

Eh, All this talk about gods reminds me of FE4, when there was indeed a god. I think it was a Earth Goddess ? I can't remember.

[omegaxis1]

10 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

If they are not gods, how does this work then ? Mila can brings bounty to the earth and her servants, while Dudu can  hentai, petrifying and other such darkish powers. And you can pray to them for things, and actually have them on the spot. I ask again, how does this crap work, if they are dragons, and not gods ?

I don't think even the creators didn't know what Duma was. But I might be able to explain the reasoning here.

They just say that Duma and Mila are sibling gods, and Mila is for some reason sealed inside a Falchion, which made no sense. Since FE1 had Marth wielded that weapon, and Zeke is confirmed to be Camus, meaning that the continents exist in the same world. So how would the legendary weapon in FE1 end up existing in FE2? 

Now in Echoes, we get confirmation that there are TWO Falchions, and that Naga had forged this one first and given it to Duma, who was an exiled Divine Dragon, and then Mila exiled herself as well with him. 

As for the unique powers they have, that's why I've been in that debate with Hardin that Divine Dragons possess powers beyond simply "light" elemental, and possess other kinds of powers. Mila can possess "life" powers, where she can restore the life within the land, and thus bring recently deceased humans and crops to life. I see nothing wrong with them being dragons as opposed to gods. I mean, Naga is no god, but she's worshipped as one, and given the stuff she can do, its no surprise.

18 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

If I'm wrong, then please tell me, but no dragons ever in the series was shown to be able to do the kind of things those two are able to do. The only one that can compare to is, maybe, and that's a big maybe, Naga from Awakening who just use random powers when the writers ask, which basically sum up how seriously this one has to be taken. Time travel ? kay fuck it no prob. Useless upgrade ? kay no prob. Teleportation on an equally powerfuld dragon or across time and space in a random period that I asked you because reasons ? kay fuck it here ya go.

Given how Naga is regarded as the most powerful Divine Dragon, she pretty much used her powers to bend the fabric of space-time, using the Outrealms to allow for a passage of time to be created. However, as Anankos stated, such a thing is a grave taboo, and that not even he could break it more than he did, but Naga shows she can send several people and even further from other realms. If anything, it shows she lives up to the hype that she's the most powerful Divine Dragon there is. 

However, the fact that even with all her power, she is incapable of killing Grima is a testament that Grima's existence is something that is beyond her abilities, and given how Grima fought Alm and even at his weakest he wasn't able to be killed by Falchion, it shows a testament of his power. 

22 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Eh, All this talk about gods reminds me of FE4, when there was indeed a god. I think it was a Earth Goddess ? I can't remember.

... I think you mean FE9 or 10. FE4 gods are dragons as well, where the Holy/Divine Weapons are weapons forged using dragonstones of dragons and forming a blood pact. This is because Genealogy is in the continent of Jugdral, that's in the same universe as Archanea and Valentia. Loptyr is an Earth Dragon. 

Its only in the Tellius series that we have a genuine and true god, or rather a goddess. Ashunera, a Goddess of Creation, before she split into Yune, the Goddess of Chaos, and Ashera, the Goddess of Order.

[B.Leu]

There's two Falchion, maybe because there's two weapons who share the same name.
Seriously.

And like I said. A dragon have a breath, have a special body that can be used to craft things, and might be tasty. That's is all that there is to it.

Dude, there's a problem if you think that Echoes is canon, or that Awakening and Fates should be taken seriously..
Echoes... do I really have to explain ? It's a mobile game that turn arround the fact that a character shoot heroes with a magic gun.
Awakening is bullshit. Naga is bullshit. Timetravel is bullshit and Outrealms is bullshit  I just already explained why. If you can't understand, or just If you can't see the difference between Naga from FE1, a dragon from old who is revered as a god and actually did things such as the dragon tablet, and Naga from FEA who is a walking plot device who do things because fuck it, just like Grima, there is nothing left for me to say.

Yeah, Naga can bend time and space, ameliorate a sword by burning it and it's wieilder, teleport people for the hell of it, all of that just like that, but can't kill Grima... that's called bad writing.
Same with Grima doing his things but not actually doing anything and Anankos'... anything.
Bad. Writing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited April 17, 2017 by B.Leu

[omegaxis1]

11 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

There's two Falchion, maybe because there's two weapons who share the same name.

Falchion is famous in Fire Emblem and is the most iconic weapon in the franchise. Not even the Binding Blade or Ragnell are nearly as famous. The fact there is a second Falchion in Valentia sort of makes the entire thing about it's fame more pointless. Now they can't just say it isn't actually Falchion, or that'd be a major retcon, so now they are saying its another Falchion. 

Of course, the more I say this, the more convinced I feel that this case with Duma and Mila being Divine Dragons are meant only to be for the second Falchion's existence.

12 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Echoes... do I really have to explain ? It's a mobile game that turn arround the fact that a character shoot heroes with a magic gun.

HEROES. Dude, you're mixing the games up really badly here. :/

12 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Dude, there's a problem if you think that Echoes is canon, or that Awakening and Fates should be taken seriously..

Awakening is bullshit. Naga is bullshit. Timetravel is bullshit and Outrealms is bullshit  I just already explained why. If you can't understand, or just If you can't see the difference between Naga from FE1, a dragon from old who is revered as a god and actually did things such as the dragon tablet, and Naga from FEA who is a walking plot device who do things because fuck it, just like Grima, there is nothing left for me to say.

Bad. Writing. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm okay with you saying that about Fates. But I like Awakening, so I have a problem if you say that Awakening purely bad writing, because it really isn't in my opinion. So I'd prefer if you didn't talk about Awakening being bad writing like its fact, because it isn't. Its purely your own opinion.

14 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Yeah, Naga can bend time and space, ameliorate a sword by burning it and it's wieilder, teleport people for the hell of it, all of that just like that, but can't kill Grima... that's called bad writing.

Not really. There were multiple reasons and theories made why he couldn't be killed. Now we have a real reason. Because Grima is an abomination that was created between both the living and dead and thus exists between the two, so Naga cannot kill a being that is stuck between life and death. 

[Pikappa93]

3 hours ago, Tamanoir said:

Saying SoV is a retcon of Gaiden is like saying ORAS retconend Emerald.

Gaiden is irrelevant to the discussion, because, clearly, this isn't Gaiden. (Berkut and Conrad shows this perfectly. Because, they are far bigger retcon.)

I wouldn't call it a retcon though. They didn't change anything plotwise, they just added some new characters. And yes, this is Gaiden.

[Emperor Hardin]

7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'm not completely denying what Kaga said. I'm saying that it just feels off that we have Mila and Duma just be referred to as gods, but then we really never see them be involved in anything ever again. Even in Awakening, Mila is at best mentioned. The dragons that held humans in the most contempt was the Earth Dragons, which was confirmed in an interview regarding Loptyr in Genealogy. 

This actually makes me wonder. This was from Mystery, and then in New Mystery, it was changed to them having a brutal war. In that case, would you consider that by New Mystery, the thing about the extinction being more of a retcon? 

But if most of the dragons expended their energy, its possible why they would die out more and more. That would explain why Naga also died afterwards when she was only 5000 years old, and since we see Bantu to be an old man at the time of Shadow Dragon and hinted to be still alive by Awakening, he's bound to be several thousand years older past Naga herself. 

 

Unless they retcon a bunch of stuff from Shadow Dragon/New/Mystery, we really can't have any Earth Dragons be part of this, since first they'll have to explain that not all Earth Dragons hold humans in contempt, then explaining that two Earth Dragons left, and then having that Naga never got involved with them despite how Divine and Earth Dragons are pretty much at odds. 

Eh, at this point, Xane is sort of a wild card explanation and doesn't prove nor disprove either side of the argument. Its like, we can't just say its a Manakete ability, cause that doesn't make sense for the others, and it might not be a Divine Dragon thing since their dragon abilities are gone. 

Actually, it was confirmed that Naga DIDN'T know what Loptyr was up to until almost 200 years after the Divine Dragons won the war against the Earth Dragons. She went to Jugdral after realizing that. Not sure how she got that info, but she got it.

But given how this is an issue from another continent, Xane and Gotoh probably felt there was no need to delve into that story. Even though its potentially hinted that Marth descended from Sigurd/Seliph's bloodline.

Simple. Cause Duma is an edgelord as stated by Werdna. No one understands even now why he has that laser eye. But he probably thought it made him look cool or a badass. 

And really, his original sprite is strange in how he looks like a SLIME MONSTER. Hell, everyone was wondering just WTF Duma was when Gaiden was out.

 

I think that's the entire point. They're really trying to connect the lores of the verse they know exist in the same universe. Since Mila and Duma aren't mentioned so deeply around on what they are, how they came to be, it does make more sense for them to be dragons, but more specifically the Divine Dragons. Of course, this also makes the issue with the second Falchion, the timeline of the degeneration, etc.

 

No, Xane said the majority of dragons held humans in contempt and refused to become Manaketes. Divine Dragons were the exceptions, while Earth Dragons held the view of the majority of dragon kind.

Its still mentioned in New Mystery, just in one of the info conversations.

As mentioned, Medeus didn't hold humans in contempt initially, and having Divine Dragons alive in Valentia is just as much of a retcon then having them be Earth Dragons. And With Mila and Duma's powers, being Earth dragons would make more sense.

The fact that Naga took so long to figure out what Loptyr was up to, disproves your claim that Naga would immediately seek out Duma and Mila if they were Earth Dragons.

Still a retcon

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Is it? Is it really? I mean, turning two gods that had zero relations to the other events in the world despite being the same verse as Jugdral and Archanea into being very much connected to other games seems very good in my opinion. In my opinion, this makes Valentia even more awesome because it has more history and understanding than Valentia did before. 

No it makes Valentia much less unique, because it had benevolent Divine Dragons, just like Archanea.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Emperor Hardin said:

No, Xane said the majority of dragons held humans in contempt and refused to become Manaketes. Divine Dragons were the exceptions, while Earth Dragons held the view of the majority of dragon kind.

I thought he said that a lot of dragons became Manaketes to avoid becoming mindless beasts, while the rest were too prideful? The only thing is that Earth Dragons were more of the entire race save for Medeus. 

 

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Its still mentioned in New Mystery, just in one of the info conversations.

Can you show me where? I looked through the story conversations and his support conversation doesn't show it either. 

 

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

As mentioned, Medeus didn't hold humans in contempt initially, and having Divine Dragons alive in Valentia is just as much of a retcon then having them be Earth Dragons. And With Mila and Duma's powers, being Earth dragons would make more sense.

Oh no, I knew THAT one. Medeus was the only one that became Manakete because he originally didn't hold humans at such a view. He started to out of pure hatred because humans loved to persecute others they fear. 

I'm not disagreeing with you that it would fit better. Heck, it would really be interesting for once there to be an Earth Dragon that actually really liked humans. But Divine Dragons are far more likely to share that. Also, like I said in an earlier post now, I'm thinking that them being Divine Dragons is very likely because of a reason to explain the 2nd Falchion. 

Also, I wouldn't say them being alive in Valentia is a retcon. From what we've learned and seen, Mila and Duma seemed to have been exiled even before the war. 

[Emperor Hardin]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I thought he said that a lot of dragons became Manaketes to avoid becoming mindless beasts, while the rest were too prideful? The only thing is that Earth Dragons were more of the entire race save for Medeus. 

 

Can you show me where? I looked through the story conversations and his support conversation doesn't show it either. 

 

Oh no, I knew THAT one. Medeus was the only one that became Manakete because he originally didn't hold humans at such a view. He started to out of pure hatred because humans loved to persecute others they fear. 

I'm not disagreeing with you that it would fit better. Heck, it would really be interesting for once there to be an Earth Dragon that actually really liked humans. But Divine Dragons are far more likely to share that. Also, like I said in an earlier post now, I'm thinking that them being Divine Dragons is very likely because of a reason to explain the 2nd Falchion. 

Also, I wouldn't say them being alive in Valentia is a retcon. From what we've learned and seen, Mila and Duma seemed to have been exiled even before the war. 

He specifically said the majority didn't become Manaketes. Also All Ice Dragons also refused to become Manaketes. The Earth Dragons were notable due to their sheer power.

I'll look for it, but I've talked to a Japanese fan, he said Xane still mentions. Maybe the fantranslation trimmed the dialogue.

Point being that proves Earth Dragons can have different views.

Considering this Falchion is still made from Naga's tooth, not Mila or Dumas, them being Divine Dragons doesn't make things better. The original explanation was Gaiden's Falchion was a normal sword until Rudolf sealed Mila in it.

Their powers are clearly not Divine Dragon powers, so it is a retcon.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

He specifically said the majority didn't become Manaketes. Also All Ice Dragons also refused to become Manaketes. The Earth Dragons were notable due to their sheer power.

I definitely did not hear the thing about all Ice Dragons being the same. But then again... holy shit, apart from Ninian, Nils, and their mother, there are no Manakete Ice Dragons with names. Huh... interesting. 

4 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I'll look for it, but I've talked to a Japanese fan, he said Xane still mentions. Maybe the fantranslation trimmed the dialogue.

You'll definitely need to show me. I can believe the possibility of there being a fan translation trimming dialogue, but better if I could at least see the proof for myself. 

6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Point being that proves Earth Dragons can have different views.

I would enjoy that. But Medeus sadly ultimately became one of the ultimate evils in the end as he became cruel and vicious, so he stopped counting in the end, cause we never really SAW the good that was in him. 

7 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Considering this Falchion is still made from Naga's tooth, not Mila or Dumas, them being Divine Dragons doesn't make things better. The original explanation was Gaiden's Falchion was a normal sword until Rudolf sealed Mila in it.

It being originally just a normal sword with a goddess just sealed into it seems cheap in my opinion. Falchion is famous in Fire Emblem for being the most iconic legendary weapon in the franchise. Of course, not that this new one is so much better, since this just means that we have two legendary weapons. Its not even like with Ragnell and Alondite, while essentially the same, they were both named differently. 

9 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Their powers are clearly not Divine Dragon powers, so it is a retcon.

Again, saying "clearly" here feels wrong. We've never seen any other Divine Dragons really fight to even base a "clearly" mark. Gotoh and Xane can't become dragons anymore, and the only other Divine Dragon was Tiki. Nowi and Nah are presumed Divine Dragons, but not confirmed. 

The Divine Dragons have a "mist" breath attack, which isn't even associated with "light", so we can't even say that they are light elementals. Since Divine and Holy are the terms here, why think "light" element, and instead think that maybe their abilities are "miracles"? Miracles, turning the hands of time and reviving the dead could be considered miracles. 

Also, it's less of a retcon if they never really expanded on their element. We've only got 2 confirmed Divine Dragons, being Naga and Tiki. Forseti being a Divine Dragon would only confirm that Divine =/= Light, since Forseti controls the wind, but we have no confirmation there. But as of now, Mila and Duma would more or less onfirm that Divine Dragons are not limited, so its less of a retcon, and more of a confirmation of abilities that Divine Dragons, or certain ones at least, can do.

[Emperor Hardin]

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I definitely did not hear the thing about all Ice Dragons being the same. But then again... holy shit, apart from Ninian, Nils, and their mother, there are no Manakete Ice Dragons with names. Huh... interesting. 

You'll definitely need to show me. I can believe the possibility of there being a fan translation trimming dialogue, but better if I could at least see the proof for myself. 

I would enjoy that. But Medeus sadly ultimately became one of the ultimate evils in the end as he became cruel and vicious, so he stopped counting in the end, cause we never really SAW the good that was in him. 

It being originally just a normal sword with a goddess just sealed into it seems cheap in my opinion. Falchion is famous in Fire Emblem for being the most iconic legendary weapon in the franchise. Of course, not that this new one is so much better, since this just means that we have two legendary weapons. Its not even like with Ragnell and Alondite, while essentially the same, they were both named differently. 

Again, saying "clearly" here feels wrong. We've never seen any other Divine Dragons really fight to even base a "clearly" mark. Gotoh and Xane can't become dragons anymore, and the only other Divine Dragon was Tiki. Nowi and Nah are presumed Divine Dragons, but not confirmed. 

The Divine Dragons have a "mist" breath attack, which isn't even associated with "light", so we can't even say that they are light elementals. Since Divine and Holy are the terms here, why think "light" element, and instead think that maybe their abilities are "miracles"? Miracles, turning the hands of time and reviving the dead could be considered miracles. 

Also, it's less of a retcon if they never really expanded on their element. We've only got 2 confirmed Divine Dragons, being Naga and Tiki. Forseti being a Divine Dragon would only confirm that Divine =/= Light, since Forseti controls the wind, but we have no confirmation there. But as of now, Mila and Duma would more or less onfirm that Divine Dragons are not limited, so its less of a retcon, and more of a confirmation of abilities that Divine Dragons, or certain ones at least, can do.

There are no Manakete Ice dragons in Archanea period.

Why would they remove dialogue for one.

He still shows they can have multiple personality types and views.

It appeared in Gaiden because initially Kaga wanted Falchion and Gradivus to appear in every game only to latter abandon that plan. Making it also made from Naga's fang raises unnecessary questions.

Divine Dragon powers are based around light and mist, Duma's powers are based around Darkness and the Earth, he bears absolutely no Divine Dragon traits.

The Mist breath is holy light actually, it even looks the part. This is also why Naga's tome is of the light element.

No its a retcon, and Forsetti isn't confirmed to be a Divine Dragon. And as mentioned, them being Divine Dragons is a retcon, so it doesn't prove anything about Divine Dragons having powers over different elements before Echoes.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

There are no Manakete Ice dragons in Archanea period.

Can't deny the evidence on the actual game showing no ice manaketes. So I'll believe that. 

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Why would they remove dialogue for one.

Hey, you said it first. XP

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

He still shows they can have multiple personality types and views.

He didn't really show so much of that good personality. At best we saw some respect for Camus, but even that didn't go far. Medeus was even more vicious with humans because of his hatred in their prejudice. Its almost ironic. But I do wish we had at least seen how Medeus was before being overcome with hatred.

4 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

It appeared in Gaiden because initially Kaga wanted Falchion and Gradivus to appear in every game only to latter abandon that plan. Making it also made from Naga's fang raises unnecessary questions.

He must have realized he screwed up big time, and now we have this to deal with. And I agree with you on that one. But it already raised questions before it, now its just more. Adding it with Duma and Mila.

5 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Divine Dragon powers are based around light and mist, Duma's powers are based around Darkness and the Earth, he bears absolutely no Divine Dragon traits.

The Mist breath is holy light actually. 

The Mist is translated from the term kiri, which does mean mist. As for Duma, I cannot really argue any further in his case. If anything, we need to actually see for ourselves in the game to understand if its actually "darkness". However, given Earth Dragons associating with that, I will agree that it tends to feel like Duma fits as an Earth Dragon. 

8 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No its a retcon, and Forsetti isn't confirmed to be a Divine Dragon. And as mentioned, them being Divine Dragons is a retcon, so it doesn't prove anything about Divine Dragons having powers over different elements before Echoes.

That debate is never gonna reach a conclusion, sadly. XP

But you know what? I'll concede the point that them turning from gods to dragons being a retcon as more of a fact. Since it wasn't ever confirmed in the original gaiden and they were always called gods, that's how they are. Now they are dragons, so it is a retcon. 

However, saying that Divine Dragons possessing powers and abilities not limited to "light" is a retcon is much more up for debate, since there was no complete establishment of their powers given there were no other playable Divine Dragons apart from Tiki (since Gotoh and Xane don't become dragons) and Tiki is young, and they never delved into what kind of powers they had. And since we have no confirmation on Forseti being divine or not, it leaves a point where its neither confirmed nor denied.

In which case, they are establishing more stuff. 

[B.Leu]

Confounding Echoes and Heroes... boy, the lack of sleep is getting me, I'm sorry. :/

It doesn't change much though, at the time, FE Gaiden was just another game of a very fresh franchise. Legendary weapons having the same name is really, really nothing new.
And like Emperor Hardin said, they planned to have it in all the Fire Emblem. Kinda like the Master Sword in Zelda years later.
 

But I have absolutely no problem with having two Falchions or things other that Mila and Duma being Divine Dragons, so I don't get why you made a big deal about it, to me I mean.

They might establish new things, it doesn't mean it have to be good, or that people have to like it. :p

 

Consider the following though: Imagine how shitty and unbalanced it would have been for the dragon society if one tribe, the divine one, actually had more power than light.
I mean, if all dragon could have more than their original powers, Bantu would be OP as hell since he's an old fart, but it's not the case, either way, it seems like weird as crap writing to me

Huh... shitty and unbalanced just like our own. Reality is unrealistic !

[Emperor Hardin]

29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Can't deny the evidence on the actual game showing no ice manaketes. So I'll believe that. 

Hey, you said it first. XP

He didn't really show so much of that good personality. At best we saw some respect for Camus, but even that didn't go far. Medeus was even more vicious with humans because of his hatred in their prejudice. Its almost ironic. But I do wish we had at least seen how Medeus was before being overcome with hatred.

He must have realized he screwed up big time, and now we have this to deal with. And I agree with you on that one. But it already raised questions before it, now its just more. Adding it with Duma and Mila.

The Mist is translated from the term kiri, which does mean mist. As for Duma, I cannot really argue any further in his case. If anything, we need to actually see for ourselves in the game to understand if its actually "darkness". However, given Earth Dragons associating with that, I will agree that it tends to feel like Duma fits as an Earth Dragon. 

That debate is never gonna reach a conclusion, sadly. XP

But you know what? I'll concede the point that them turning from gods to dragons being a retcon as more of a fact. Since it wasn't ever confirmed in the original gaiden and they were always called gods, that's how they are. Now they are dragons, so it is a retcon. 

However, saying that Divine Dragons possessing powers and abilities not limited to "light" is a retcon is much more up for debate, since there was no complete establishment of their powers given there were no other playable Divine Dragons apart from Tiki (since Gotoh and Xane don't become dragons) and Tiki is young, and they never delved into what kind of powers they had. And since we have no confirmation on Forseti being divine or not, it leaves a point where its neither confirmed nor denied.

In which case, they are establishing more stuff. 

Xane said they degenerated like the Earth Dragons and now just mindlessly attack people while guarding their temple. They are also found sealed in the Table in the remake.

Keep in mind, Medeus did guard the table for at least a thousand years.

Gradivus in Valentia didn't even get a backstory in Echoes, which is interesting.

The battle graphics show the mist as composed of light, descriptions of Divine Dragons also indicate their breath is holy elemental. Even both of Gotoh's ultimate tomes, Starlight and Aura, are both based around light magic continuing the theme.

Divine Dragons have always been based around Divine power, thats their whole theme. It'd entirely defeat the purpose of the other Dragons if Divine Dragons were also the masters of Fire, Ice, Shadow, and Earth. Keep in mind, they're supposed to be equal to the Earth Dragons in power.

They're not establishing more stuff, they're making the setting more generic.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Xane said they degenerated like the Earth Dragons and now just mindlessly attack people while guarding their temple. They are also found sealed in the Table in the remake.

Just to clarify, but the remake has all dragon types appear. But it's only the Earths that get automatically vanished, which has to do with the seal there and stuff, I'd figure.

 

Also, when it comes to the Ice Dragons, I've always thought (and admitedly there's little evidence to back my opinion) that the human enemies in Chapters 13 and 14 were Ice Dragon Manaketes (not using dragonstones because reasons / gameplay for enemy variety). I can't believe they could be all just random barbarians and stuff that happen to move/live where the Dragons once did. Same thing could apply for the human enemies in Chapter 12, with the Fire Dragon lands.

[omegaxis1]

11 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Confounding Echoes and Heroes... boy, the lack of sleep is getting me, I'm sorry. :/

Boy, get some sleep. I'm not kidding. I know how bad lack of sleep gets. Always have to wake up early for work and I tend to sleep late. Its not good. ;-;

11 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

It doesn't change much though, at the time, FE Gaiden was just another game of a very fresh franchise. Legendary weapons having the same name is really, really nothing new.
And like Emperor Hardin said, they planned to have it in all the Fire Emblem. Kinda like the Master Sword in Zelda years later.

Yes, but now that we have come this far into the farnchise, remaking a series opens up the complications the old one had, so no doubt they tried to make story tie ins to other stories regarding Archanea, and by extension, Awakening. 

The only continent that almost seems not as involved is Jugdral, but even now it seems like there are connections. Like one example is that Nowi might have been born there based on her supports with Donnel. And the case of Grima might have origins tied to Jugdral. I'm betting that more ties would be made if a Jugdral remake was done. 

11 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

But I have absolutely no problem with having two Falchions or things other that Mila and Duma being Divine Dragons, so I don't get why you made a big deal about it, to me I mean.

They might establish new things, it doesn't mean it have to be good, or that people have to like it. :p

Its impossible for EVERYONE to like something. Even if its good, some people might hate it just cause its popular. That's people. 

I have no big issues with there being two Falchions, but given that its iconic, the writers must have felt that they needed to really explain this. 

11 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Consider the following though: Imagine how shitty and unbalanced it would have been for the dragon society if one tribe, the divine one, actually had more power than light.
I mean, if all dragon could have more than their original powers, Bantu would be OP as hell since he's an old fart, but it's not the case, either way, it seems like weird as crap writing to me

The Divine Dragons are still hailed as the most powerful tribe in the long run. And the very fact they are called Divine/Holy already separates them from the others already.

11 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Huh... shitty and unbalanced just like our own. Reality is unrealistic !

Why does this comment... hits so right at home? 

6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Keep in mind, Medeus did guard the table for at least a thousand years.

I do in fact keep that in mind. But that's more telling and knowing than showing. 

6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Gradivus in Valentia didn't even get a backstory in Echoes, which is interesting.

Which still bothers me now, given how its hailed as one of the 3 Regalia and all that. And Echoes shows there's still another Gradivus. 

6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The battle graphics show the mist as composed of light, descriptions of Divine Dragons also indicate their breast is holy elemental.

If you're talking about the original FE1/3, poor excuse, given the limited tech. If you mean the remakes, it looks more like green fire. If Awakening, nothing to comment there.

8 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Divine Dragons have always been based around Divine power, thats their whole theme. It'd entirely defeat the purpose of the other Dragons if Divine Dragons were also the masters of Fire, Ice, Shadow, and Earth. Keep in mind, they're supposed to be equal to the Earth Dragons in power.

Maybe they had power and versatility, but given how the Divine Dragons became Manaketes and the Earth Dragons became frenzied, its likely that the Divine Dragons grew weaker from sealing their powers away and even retaking it means that they still cannot take their full powers possibly. I'm just theorizing here. This would actually explain why the Earth Dragons still survive through, but most of the Divine Dragons ultimately perish as you say. 

10 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

They're not establishing more stuff, they're making the setting more generic.

Eh, doesn't really feel that generic to me. But I guess it would be far more interesting to see Earth Dragons be involved in the plot as decent folk, or maybe even see other Tribes getting involved. 

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Just to clarify, but the remake has all dragon types appear. But it's only the Earths that get automatically vanished, which has to do with the seal there and stuff, I'd figure.

Isn't that cause the Shield of Seals was designed to seal the Earth Dragons away? 

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Also, when it comes to the Ice Dragons, I've always thought (and admitedly there's little evidence to back my opinion) that the human enemies in Chapters 13 and 14 were Ice Dragon Manaketes (not using dragonstones because reasons / gameplay for enemy variety). I can't believe they could be all just random barbarians and stuff that happen to move/live where the Dragons once did. Same thing could apply for the human enemies in Chapter 12, with the Fire Dragon lands.

Good point. They could have actually abandoned their Dragonstones like others, and just learned to use weapons and such. And given how its said those environments are not possible for humans to live under, its all the more likely that they could be manaketes. 

[Emperor Hardin]

10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The Divine Dragons are still hailed as the most powerful tribe in the long run. And the very fact they are called Divine/Holy already separates them from the others already.

Why does this comment... hits so right at home? 

I do in fact keep that in mind. But that's more telling and knowing than showing. 

Which still bothers me now, given how its hailed as one of the 3 Regalia and all that. And Echoes shows there's still another Gradivus. 

If you're talking about the original FE1/3, poor excuse, given the limited tech. If you mean the remakes, it looks more like green fire. If Awakening, nothing to comment there.

Maybe they had power and versatility, but given how the Divine Dragons became Manaketes and the Earth Dragons became frenzied, its likely that the Divine Dragons grew weaker from sealing their powers away and even retaking it means that they still cannot take their full powers possibly. I'm just theorizing here. This would actually explain why the Earth Dragons still survive through, but most of the Divine Dragons ultimately perish as you say. 

Eh, doesn't really feel that generic to me. But I guess it would be far more interesting to see Earth Dragons be involved in the plot as decent folk, or maybe even see other Tribes getting involved. 

Isn't that cause the Shield of Seals was designed to seal the Earth Dragons away? 

Good point. They could have actually abandoned their Dragonstones like others, and just learned to use weapons and such. And given how its said those environments are not possible for humans to live under, its all the more likely that they could be manaketes. 

Thats clearly a light elemental stone and the battle graphics of the SNES version are clearly supposed to be based around light rather then engine limitations. As for it being light green, keep in mind Shadow Breath is purple. I believe Binding Blade also referred to Divine Dragons having powers based around light. A Fire Dragon's tome was a Fire tome, A Earth/Shadow Dragon's tome was Dark, and A Divine Dragon's tome was light. They were obviously meant to be light elemental from the very beginning, no doubts about it.

Forsetti states in FE4 that the Earth tribe equals the Divine Dragons in power. It'd be absurd if the Divine Dragons were also masters of Earth and Shadow magic. 

Forsetti didn't indicate Earth Dragons were equal in power due to the manakete event, Naga and Loptyr's tomes were equal in his words, while the Earth Tribe was described as possessing the most fearsome power of the dragon tribes.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Isn't that cause the Shield of Seals was designed to seal the Earth Dragons away? 

Good point. They could have actually abandoned their Dragonstones like others, and just learned to use weapons and such. And given how its said those environments are not possible for humans to live under, its all the more likely that they could be manaketes. 

I would think that if other types of Dragons were sealed, then the Shield would've reacted to them as well. In the original game, it was only Earth dragons that spawned in the final chapter, after all.

Maybe, but then I'd question then for how long Darros and Beck have been there (since that's where the remake placed them, Darros in Ch12, and Beck in Ch13), and if it's really that inhospitable to non-dragons.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I would think that if other types of Dragons were sealed, then the Shield would've reacted to them as well. In the original game, it was only Earth dragons that spawned in the final chapter, after all.

Maybe, but then I'd question then for how long Darros and Beck have been there (since that's where the remake placed them, Darros in Ch12, and Beck in Ch13), and if it's really that inhospitable to non-dragons.

On the hardest difficulty of the remake, several Earth Dragons also don't get sealed by the Shield either. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

On the hardest difficulty of the remake, several Earth Dragons also don't get sealed by the Shield either. 

No, they still get sealed. What happens is that in non-Lunatic difficulties, they spawn right before the Shield acts up. In Lunatic and Lunatic+, they spawn before it can, so they have time to do stuff.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

Just to throw my hat into the ring here

 

naga made the Binding Shield as far as I am aware; it is very odd if they're pure light elementals that she'd make not only Star, Light, and Life, but also Darkness and Earth based spheres- both elements Duma uses as far as we can see.