How to fix Swordmasters?

[Sias]

1 hour ago, SavageVolug said:

Well if you don't look at growths for an idea on how good a unit is I'd like to know what you are supposed to look at. In terms of damage output if Edward is in the same class as Mia and Lucia Edward WILL do MORE damage than them. I don't know what you're playstyle is but I've played the game at least 5 times and every time Edward helps make things easier. Can he tank? No. He's not supposed to, that's Nolan's, Aran's, Jill's and maybe Meg's job depends if she's class changed yet or not. If she hasn't she's a lost cause. Myrmidons are not good tanks but boy can he dodge and he can dish out damage. He ALMOST killed Ike which is practically unheard of. If Edward is promoted by the end of part 1 he is incredible and probably will have better stats than Zihark although everyone else in the Dawn Brigade should be promoted too. I have done comparisons on performance multiple time Edward and Stefan are the top two myrmidons of the game. Zihark may have enough strength with a stat booster, but Edward doesn't NEED a stat booster. His strength will be capped meaning I can just give it to someone else unless I've used them already. If Mia and Lucia have trouble wielding Iron Blade swords there's no way they can wield Alondite. When all your units split up I've near the end of the game I've had Edward and Mia on the same team as they kind of have similar personalities and Edward outperformed Mia even though they were side by side and should have had a similar performance.

Well, first of all: Base stats > Growths for most FE games.

I'm also terribly sorry to break this to you, but peronal experience isn't a valid basis for judging characters. It's definitely nice that you enjoy using Edward so much, but it also sounds like you're dumping a ton of favouritism at him, so of course he will perfom well given the circumstances. If we take a look a the newest tier list for Radiant Dawn however, we get the following ratings: Zihark 7.86 > Mia 7.74 > Edward 6 > Stefan 5.14 > Lucia 3.82.

As you see, the common opinion on SF seems to be that Edward and Stefan are in fact not the best swordmasters in the game, and if you want to continue this discussion, I'd honestly advise you to do some fact-checking before stating simply incorrect things like your claims regarding the possible usage of Alondite.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

Well if you don't look at growths for an idea on how good a unit is I'd like to know what you are supposed to look at. In terms of damage output if Edward is in the same class as Mia and Lucia Edward WILL do MORE damage than them. I don't know what you're playstyle is but I've played the game at least 5 times and every time Edward helps make things easier. Can he tank? No. He's not supposed to, that's Nolan's, Aran's, Jill's and maybe Meg's job depends if she's class changed yet or not. If she hasn't she's a lost cause. Myrmidons are not good tanks but boy can he dodge and he can dish out damage. He ALMOST killed Ike which is practically unheard of. If Edward is promoted by the end of part 1 he is incredible and probably will have better stats than Zihark although everyone else in the Dawn Brigade should be promoted too. I have done comparisons on performance multiple time Edward and Stefan are the top two myrmidons of the game. Zihark may have enough strength with a stat booster, but Edward doesn't NEED a stat booster. His strength will be capped meaning I can just give it to someone else unless I've used them already. If Mia and Lucia have trouble wielding Iron Blade swords there's no way they can wield Alondite. When all your units split up I've near the end of the game I've had Edward and Mia on the same team as they kind of have similar personalities and Edward outperformed Mia even though they were side by side and should have had a similar performance.

Some of this stuff was stated already, but first off, bases > growths. Second, it sounds a lot like you've been favoring Edward - there's no way in hell he can be competitive with Mia, who is much closer to third tier, otherwise, considering he spends a huge majority of the game having to play catch-up. I don't see how Edward can be one of the best myrmidons when there's literally next to no reason to continue to invest in him when Zihark shows up. Also, you're not helping your case by insisting that Mia and Lucia have trouble wielding Iron Blades when their base Strength is enough for them to use Steel Blades, which have 17 Wt, with no AS loss. Third, personal experience counts for nothing - just because Edward may have been an all-star performer for you does NOT mean that you can expect someone else to have an all-star Edward.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Junkhead]

Standard movement isn't "low". It's just...standard. Average. Where would that would Knights and Generals, otherwise?

To the actual question, SMs work best in giving them a sense of certain exclusivity. FE10 did this right by making them the better users of Adept. Higher critical was only the icing on the cake, there. I think they work well by being high Spd as well as Critical.

[SpearOfLies]

1 If you use myrm/samurai/swordmaster as tank, please go to google and search glass cannon.

2 If you use a defensive strategy, of course you will not use SMs.

3 Fates have very screw you rng, dodge and hit can be very bullshit. You should never rely on it. But if you don't like rng, stop play FE.

4 Use a skill and use correctly a skill is different. If you keep you SM half hp for the entire chapter to proc Vantage, you are not using it correctly. Astra is a balance defensive proc skill. Most of other proc skills are offensively better.

5 Most of Fates units cannot tank more than one enemy. Fates like reduce your stats, so even tank will have hard time(unless you playing birthright).

[SavageVolug]

7 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Some of this stuff was stated already, but first off, bases > growths. Second, it sounds a lot like you've been favoring Edward - there's no way in hell he can be competitive with Mia, who is much closer to third tier, otherwise, considering he spends a huge majority of the game having to play catch-up. I don't see how Edward can be one of the best myrmidons when there's literally next to no reason to continue to invest in him when Zihark shows up. Also, you're not helping your case by insisting that Mia and Lucia have trouble wielding Iron Blades when their base Strength is enough for them to use Steel Blades, which have 17 Wt, with no AS loss. Third, personal experience counts for nothing - just because Edward may have been an all-star performer for you does NOT mean that you can expect someone else to have an all-star Edward.

Well if bases are better than growths by that logic we should ignore Eliwood and just use Marcus, or completely ignore units like Ross. Who has terrible bases but can turn into an awesome unit. Actually by the time I can use Mia, she and Edward are at similar levels. And yes Edward can be competitive with Mia it happens every time The only part of the game that Edward has to play catch up is part 1 which is not a "huge majority of the game" after that he should be more or less caught up. But by that argument there's no reason to use Nolan than because of all the catch up he has to do compared to Boyd or Aran compared to Nephenee. And again by the time you reach the end of part 1 all three of these guys should be promoted, in short your entire team should be in tier 2 There's a lot of reason to use Edward over Zihark for starters Zihark will take some much needed EXP away from the Dawn Brigade which is bad and lastly in the long run Edward will be better. And I'm no the only one who says this I know of a few people who have stated similar things.

My personal experience with various Fire Emblem units shows me 1 what a unit is capable of and some units like Meg and Fiona actually end up surprising me. 2 how a particular unit is likely to turn out especially if that unit turns out the same repeatedly. Unless someone else got the short end of the stick or something by the RNG there's no reason why what I'm describing won't be repeated. And if I favor Edward it's because unlike most myrmidons he levels up strength a lot the only myrmidon who might have better str is Stefan, but I don't really see how it's favoring Edward when he's the only myrmidon the Dawn Brigade gets. 

[SavageVolug]

4 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

1 If you use myrm/samurai/swordmaster as tank, please go to google and search glass cannon.

2 If you use a defensive strategy, of course you will not use SMs.

3 Fates have very screw you rng, dodge and hit can be very bullshit. You should never rely on it. But if you don't like rng, stop play FE.

4 Use a skill and use correctly a skill is different. If you keep you SM half hp for the entire chapter to proc Vantage, you are not using it correctly. Astra is a balance defensive proc skill. Most of other proc skills are offensively better.

5 Most of Fates units cannot tank more than one enemy. Fates like reduce your stats, so even tank will have hard time(unless you playing birthright).

Exactly I agree with so many of these points. For starters it makes no sense to use a myrmidon as a tank (unless maybe you're only fighting axe units on the map) because unless the myrmidon has a good Defense growth or crazy lucky defense level ups his/her defense is going to be lousy. In addition this is not offset by a crazy amount of HP unlike fighters or especially Berserkers. Berserkers have terrible defense but their speed is insane and their defense is offset by a ridiculous amount of HP. Yeah, Fates has the worst RNG, dodge and hit rates that I have seen. Dart's 45% Hit rate against swordmasters is more reliable than Arthur's 90% hit rate with weapon advantage. What you say about Vantage is true it never made sense to me to keep a myrmidon at half HP especially as I said they don't have the most robust amount of HP which is why I liked it better when the skill was triggered by speed or skill instead. And your last point, yes, yes, YES. I hate that about Fates, whether it's the stat seal skills, the daggers, or because a certain weapon was equipped. It doesn't make sense to me. If Effie or Benny has a defense of let's say 25 for example their defense should STAY that way. Enemies should not be able to chip their defense down a few notches just because of a defense seal skill or from throwing knives at you. The same goes for fighting bosses you should not be able to lower his stats and thus making it easier to defeat him.

[SavageVolug]

10 hours ago, Sias said:

Well, first of all: Base stats > Growths for most FE games.

I'm also terribly sorry to break this to you, but peronal experience isn't a valid basis for judging characters. It's definitely nice that you enjoy using Edward so much, but it also sounds like you're dumping a ton of favouritism at him, so of course he will perfom well given the circumstances. If we take a look a the newest tier list for Radiant Dawn however, we get the following ratings: Zihark 7.86 > Mia 7.74 > Edward 6 > Stefan 5.14 > Lucia 3.82.

As you see, the common opinion on SF seems to be that Edward and Stefan are in fact not the best swordmasters in the game, and if you want to continue this discussion, I'd honestly advise you to do some fact-checking before stating simply incorrect things like your claims regarding the possible usage of Alondite.

I'll have to check this tier list out I didn't know there was one. As far as dumping favouritism on Edward that may very well be true, but not any more so than what I do for Nolan, Aran or just about every other member of the Dawn Brigade. The only one I don't like is also the one I'm forced to use so it's rather imperative to level her up. 

[ping]

2 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

Well if bases are better than growths by that logic we should ignore Eliwood and just use Marcus, or completely ignore units like Ross.

Funny that you chose Marcus for your argument, because at least in Hector Mode that's a way more efficient playstyle than spoonfeeding Eliwood and not using the best unit in the game, i.e. Marcus. ;) You've basically given one of the best examples for bases > growths in the series (I haven't played Thracia, but I've heard that Dagda is another great one) because I'm pretty sure that Marcus is considered to be the most valuable unit in the game while Eliwood is pretty mediocre overall. And the non-main lords aren't forces as often as you'd think, so it's perfectly viable to just hide them in a corner when they do have to participate.

Keep in mind that the final chapter is just a small part of the game, and that the earlygame often is more difficult than later chapters since you don't have as many units to choose from. Being a good fighting unit in the late game is easy - hell, even Wendy can manage that if you go through the ordeal of grinding her up - but in the first half of third of the game, the number of characters that can survive multiple fights in one enemy phase tends to be rather low. And Marcus isn't just tankier than everyone on your team except Oswin, but he has also the highest strength and speed (well, Matthew and Guy tie him, but they're worse in the other categories), full weapon triangle control including sick weapon ranks (2*A and 1*B) and the highest movement. The gap between him and everyone else in the first half of the game (excluding Lyn mode, of course) is so much bigger than any growth unit can manage at later points of the game. And that prior sentance is even true for FE6 where Marcus's everything is nerfed quite a bit - him being a crutch in the first third of the game or so is still the most valuable contribution anyone makes in the game.

[Shadow Mir]

9 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

Well if bases are better than growths by that logic we should ignore Eliwood and just use Marcus, or completely ignore units like Ross. Who has terrible bases but can turn into an awesome unit. Actually by the time I can use Mia, she and Edward are at similar levels. And yes Edward can be competitive with Mia it happens every time The only part of the game that Edward has to play catch up is part 1 which is not a "huge majority of the game" after that he should be more or less caught up. But by that argument there's no reason to use Nolan than because of all the catch up he has to do compared to Boyd or Aran compared to Nephenee. And again by the time you reach the end of part 1 all three of these guys should be promoted, in short your entire team should be in tier 2 There's a lot of reason to use Edward over Zihark for starters Zihark will take some much needed EXP away from the Dawn Brigade which is bad and lastly in the long run Edward will be better. And I'm no the only one who says this I know of a few people who have stated similar things.

My personal experience with various Fire Emblem units shows me 1 what a unit is capable of and some units like Meg and Fiona actually end up surprising me. 2 how a particular unit is likely to turn out especially if that unit turns out the same repeatedly. Unless someone else got the short end of the stick or something by the RNG there's no reason why what I'm describing won't be repeated. And if I favor Edward it's because unlike most myrmidons he levels up strength a lot the only myrmidon who might have better str is Stefan, but I don't really see how it's favoring Edward when he's the only myrmidon the Dawn Brigade gets. 

The thing is, a unit with good bases is easier to use than one with good growths, but bad bases. And even then, a growth dependent unit can wind up having their usability severely compromised if the RNG doesn't cooperate. Also, Edward's playtime mostly consists of part 1 and 3 part 3 chapters, the former of which he's in training and the latter of which is a big "screw you" to evade reliant units (like Edward himself), hence the "majority of the game" part (compared to Mia, who's likely close to third tier, if not already there, by the time part 4 rolls around). Your other examples fall flat because they don't compete with another unit of the same class until part 4, unlike Edward, who faces competition from Zihark; Nolan is also one of the better DB units, whilst the same can't be said of Boyd within his group. Likewise, Aran stands out from Nephenee because of his defensive inclination (and this is on a group that is in serious need of a tank). As for the Exp stealing argument, it doesn't work that way - if Edward gets a kill, no one else can get that kill. If Nolan gets a kill, no one else can get that kill. Also, all Edward has going for him over Zihark is... what, Caladbolg? Pah.

That's the thing - you can't count on a unit in FE to turn out the same repeatedly.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, ping said:

(I haven't played Thracia, but I've heard that Dagda is another great one)

Just gonna chime in, but no, Dagdar really isn't a case of a good Jeigan. The way stats work in Thracia works against Dagda, and he's absent for ~6 chapters. From the moment he disappears to the moment he reappears, it's likely that you'll have several units who beat Dagda in basically every stat that isn't Str, Bld or HP, and Bld is a very situational stat. Outside of Ced and Galzus, it's generally encouraged to train up weaker, unpromoted units, since the investment to get them good isn't anywhere as high as most other FEs. Plus, a lot of what can make a unit "good" in Thracia comes down to their skills, and Dagdar is stuck with one of the most underwhelming skills in the game unless you give him skill books, which would really go to better use on other characters.

He's not a bad unit by any means, but he's gonna hit his efficiency wall pretty quickly after he reappears. He's got movement stars, but you probably shouldn't rely on those, and he's not really capable of carrying you through the whole game like FE7 Marcus can, and it IS better to train up weaker units who will eventually surpass him.

Anyway, carry on.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Slumber

[Irysa]

@Slumber

Dagda does have availability concerns that most other Jeigans don't have but that doesn't change the fact his bases are high enough to carry him for nearly the whole game. Thracia's enemies are mostly terrible and anything Dagda doesn't naturally double he basically gets to psuedo double because of charge (which is far from being a bad skill), or he can use the Brave Axe to 2HKO nearly everything (he's also one of the best units to use to capture enemies because of these traits). Str Bld and HP are exactly the kind of stats that are useful for a unit like him, so the fact he has so much is great, and scrolls help him out just as much as they help unpromoted characters.

Like, I get that Orsin statistically starts to pull ahead fairly quick and has an amazing 1-2 along with good PCC but Dagda is still completely demolishing most of your army at that point in the game and continues to do so for a while. He's well worth deploying over many other chumps, and the places where he's not so great are dominated by staffers anyway. Describing him as "not a good Jeigan" is doing him a disservice, because he's still an excellent unit.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Irysa

[Slumber]

8 minutes ago, Irysa said:

@Slumber

Dagda does have availability concerns that most other Jeigans don't have but that doesn't change the fact his bases are high enough to carry him for nearly the whole game. Thracia's enemies are mostly terrible and anything Dagda doesn't naturally double he basically gets to psuedo double because of charge (which is far from being a bad skill), or he can use the Brave Axe to 2HKO nearly everything (he's also one of the best units to use to capture enemies because of these traits). Str Bld and HP are exactly the kind of stats that are useful for a unit like him, so the fact he has so much is great.

Like, I get that Orsin statistically starts to pull ahead fairly quick but Dagda is still completely demolishing most of your army at that point in the game and continues to do so for a while. He's well worth deploying over many other chumps, and the places where he's not so great are dominated by staffers anyway.

Again, Dagdar's a decent unit, but he's not FE7 Marcus, where it's "efficient" to just abuse him and ignore unpromoted units. By about mid-game, most of your units should start passing him up, and enemies do start causing him problems, since even from chapter 1 he can have problems hitting things, and he can start getting doubled by the time he shows up again. Thracia's enemies are also terrible to a point. By about mid-game, they'll start outclassing Dagdar, and his endgame usefulness will only be as high as you're willing to protect and baby him from common fodder. Thracia's bosses are also so ridiculous at points that Dagdar can't even be really used as a boss killer.

He's a utility unit for the most part. If you choose to ignore Marty, he'll probably be your best capture unit for a long time, but that's a pretty niche role when all is said and done, and it's a role many units can(And likely will) fill fairly quickly.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Slumber

[SavageVolug]

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The thing is, a unit with good bases is easier to use than one with good growths, but bad bases. And even then, a growth dependent unit can wind up having their usability severely compromised if the RNG doesn't cooperate. Also, Edward's playtime mostly consists of part 1 and part 3, the former of which he's in training and the latter of which is a big "screw you" to evade reliant units (like Edward himself), hence the "majority of the game" part (compared to Mia, who's likely close to third tier, if not already there, by the time part 4 rolls around). Your other examples fall flat because they don't compete with another unit of the same class until part 4, unlike Edward, who faces competition from Zihark; Nolan is also one of the better DB units, whilst the same can't be said of Boyd within his group. Likewise, Aran stands out from Nephenee because of his defensive inclination (and this is on a group that is in serious need of a tank). As for the Exp stealing argument, it doesn't work that way - if Edward gets a kill, no one else can get that kill. If Nolan gets a kill, no one else can get that kill. Also, all Edward has going for him over Zihark is... what, Caladbolg? Pah.

That's the thing - you can't count on a unit in FE to turn out the same repeatedly.

Ok, yeah I see what you're saying here. Because Hector for instance is a LOT easier to use than Eliwood early on because of Hector's better strength and def and at the same time while Lyn is not as strong as Hector she's faster than either of these. Now on my playthrough Eliwood's stat's remained balanced however I have only done one playthrough of that game so I can't say if I was just fortunate with his level ups or if the same is likely to happen again. When I do, I plan on using a different unit arrangement perhaps swapping Rath for Will or something even though I do like Rath's character and his higher movement range. Or maybe using Geitz instead of Harken ect. that's the thing I enjoy experimenting with units that I use when possible and implementing different strategies. While at the same time trying to keep all of the units at my disposal relevant and reliable Tanith and Sigrun though might be a lost cause at least compared to Marcia. 

[Augestein]

On 5/4/2017 at 7:13 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I dunno about you, but not getting hit is something I wouldn't take for granted unless you were using a pathetically weak weapon (Sunrise Katana) or a weapon that makes you fight at reduced capacity every other time, to say nothing of it being S rank and only having like 3 chapters' worth of availability (Hagakure Blade); while I'm at it, that's another thing - some weapons in Fates drop your avoid. Also, I don't really see dual katanas helping swordmasters that much since it still won't help much against the likes of Generals and Great Knights, who tend to have two weapons. Oh, and I've seen what they can do, too, except I was unimpressed, else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

It does help. The point of Swordmasters is basically to be 1 range archers. IE, they don't fight on enemy phase. Vantage is used as a safe guard for when you screw up. The other 3 moves that they get are meant to assist with their blowing up enemies. That's why dual katanas help because it ups their chance of fighting enemies at WTA and being able to stack that with their duelist blow skill. A unit like Hana for instance, is meant to kill an enemy, and then have her passive skill go off and damage other enemies nearby. Whether you are unimpressed or not doesn't mean that they don't have a niche now that doesn't just make them "crappy heroes that have less durability and no axes." 

[SavageVolug]

I've always thought of myrmidons as a sort of "specialist" class you don't want them doing anything remotely similar to tanking like Heroes, Warriors and Berserkers can for while Berserkers have bad defense they have insane amounts of HP. At the same time they are a valuable asset to your army just like sages or druids are, you don't put your sages or druids in the frontlines and neither do you put myrmidons in the front lines. However this is how I would improve myrmidons first I would bring back the ranged swords like light brand, wind edge, storm edge, tempest blade ect. however they would not function off of magic almost all sword wielders have little to no magic so having them work off of magic doesn't make sense. Next assuming for the sake of the argument that in this scenario every sword from every past Fire Emblem game is present (so greatswords, iron/steel/silver blades, longswords ect.) and that the weight system is being used (as I think it works 10x better than Fates' half hearted fatigue attempt) myrmidons would have the following stat ratio however a similar thing applies to ALL OTHER classes in this scenario, keep in mind the idea here is a base level myrmidon.

HP 20

Str 8

Magic 0 (unless weapons that work off of magic are in the game magic is not needed)

Skill 12

Sp 12

Luck10

Def 5

Res 3

Constitution 6 ( but can be maxed out to 8 with the proper stat item)

Movement 5

Base skills Rescue, Shove, a Crit bonus of 5+, a avoidance buff (the crit and avoidance skill get stronger bonuses upon promotions) and other more "passive" skills which don't take up your skill slots or skill pool. Now upon promotion every stat is raised to the bare minimum of that class basically certain stats in the next class cannot be below X number. In addition things like constitution also receive a buff for this illustration let's say by 2 points instead of pretty much staying at the same number like it was in past games. Now rescue and shove are good mechanics it's also fun to shove your friends around however foot units like myrmidons cannot rescue a mounted unit but they can shove them. I always thought it was funny in the GBA games how Dart the berserker could rescue literally EVERYBODY including mounted units I think he was even able to rescue Heath and I don't remember who could rescue Dart. As hysterical as this is it REALLY doesn't make any sense that a non mounted unit could rescue another mounted unit. However they can shove these units, only mounted units can rescue mounted units. For example Steve the myrmidon cannot rescue Lucy the troubadour but he can rescue Annaka the priest or he could shove Lucy. 

Now more offensive skills like Astra, adept, cancel ect. all take up points or slots as opposed to the base skills.

Now ranged swords like the kodachi or the tempest blade are lighter and easier to wield making it more likely that you will double but their attack power and accuracy are not as good (kind of like the handaxes). Standard sized swords like the iron sword or brave swords are basic they have good hit and might rates and pretty much anyone can use them assuming they have the appropriate weapon rank. Longswords, greatswords and Iron, Steel or Silver blades and other beasty swords while they pack a lot of punch but require more skill to wield they also tend to be heavier. Now because in this scenario the myrmidon's constitution increases upon promotion (also I'm imagining a 3 tier class system is in play for all units) they will not be held back from using certain weapons. Maybe at base level Steve can't use the longsword but if you give him the appropriate stat item or promote him he will because his constitution will now be high enough. As much as I like the GBA games and these swords that always bugged me that it seemed units like Guy always struggled with them, when in reality these swords are not that heavy if you use two hands which is how they are supposed to be used and due to their longer reach is a great weapon to use. Also I felt people like Guy should be able to eventually use them but his constitution never increases so that doesn't help matter at all. 

Ok, I'm done I hope I didn't go too long here, and I hope you enjoy reading this. I would be interested in feedback I was trying to incorporate mechanics from previous and present games. 

[SpearOfLies]

On 6/5/2017 at 4:47 PM, SavageVolug said:

Exactly I agree with so many of these points. For starters it makes no sense to use a myrmidon as a tank (unless maybe you're only fighting axe units on the map) because unless the myrmidon has a good Defense growth or crazy lucky defense level ups his/her defense is going to be lousy. In addition this is not offset by a crazy amount of HP unlike fighters or especially Berserkers. Berserkers have terrible defense but their speed is insane and their defense is offset by a ridiculous amount of HP. Yeah, Fates has the worst RNG, dodge and hit rates that I have seen. Dart's 45% Hit rate against swordmasters is more reliable than Arthur's 90% hit rate with weapon advantage. What you say about Vantage is true it never made sense to me to keep a myrmidon at half HP especially as I said they don't have the most robust amount of HP which is why I liked it better when the skill was triggered by speed or skill instead. And your last point, yes, yes, YES. I hate that about Fates, whether it's the stat seal skills, the daggers, or because a certain weapon was equipped. It doesn't make sense to me. If Effie or Benny has a defense of let's say 25 for example their defense should STAY that way. Enemies should not be able to chip their defense down a few notches just because of a defense seal skill or from throwing knives at you. The same goes for fighting bosses you should not be able to lower his stats and thus making it easier to defeat him.

I kind of disagree about the last part.

I like the seal/shuriken mechanics but I dislike the ninja and master ninja. The reduce stats mechanics make you more creative about strategy. I like Fates for let you play so much aggressive and reward you. I would like more boss that feel like very boss. Not something can be easily be killed. I hope next ner fire emblem have stronger boss that force you to reduce their stats or use effective strategy to take them down.

[SavageVolug]

I agree that we should have bosses that feel like bosses. However I don't feel the stat reducing effect of seal skills or that the knives have is what causes a player to be creative with their team on any given map. I've played a few different Fire Emblem games and I like messing around with different tactics so being creative is something I'm going to do whether stat drops are in the game or not. I think knives should definitely make a return but my thoughts on seals still stand.

For one thing I don't see how it makes any sense that any weapon or skill can chip away at the defense or any other stat for that matter of any given unit. Also it seems like a cheap tactic to more easily defeat an enemy who has a lot of defense or an easy way of making a map hard. Where it's not because you have formidable opponents you're just facing enemies who can lower your stats. I just don't see any strategy at work with mechanics like that. Lastly thank you for your thoughts on the matter and adding to the discussion I always enjoy hearing feedback from other members on my posts.

[Harvey]

I think Swordmasters should be used when you want to lure in units that have the potential to rip your own units. In that sense, Swordmasters fit in that role perfectly seeing that they have good skill,speed and luck.

And yeah, tanky swordmasters were never a thing and even then, that's not how they are suppose to be made..that is a job done best for mercenaries.

 

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

And yeah, tanky swordmasters were never a thing and even then, that's not how they are suppose to be made..that is a job done best for mercenaries.

Actually, Hinata had a pretty high defense growth for a Myrmidon.

[Harvey]

26 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Actually, Hinata had a pretty high defense growth for a Myrmidon.

Which is why he's best to be an oni savage instead.

 

[goodperson707]

Well Hinata is from the game where the alternate to swordmaster has more defence rather than less. (Well mercenary/hero had 1 more base def in thracia but I don't think that was really utilized.) I think that's a good bet for what they were going for. (Oni access I think runs a fowl of chicken or the egg syndrome) But he still was a thing regardless.

Oh and I wouldn't be confident on non robust hp as an general statement.

 

Edited May 9, 2017 by goodperson707

[Harvey]

Speaking of which..I really wanted to use Hana because of her cute character design of hers but she's extremely fragile even for a swordmaster class. atleast have more HP damn it...

 

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

Which is why he's best to be an oni savage instead.

 

I disagree. His speed is so low that one enemy mage in a group and he's roasted. Wary Fighter is knight exclusive too, so he'll be doubled forever without samurai to salvage his terrible speed growth. I'd rather use Oboro to tank.

I do like what they tried to do with Hinata and Hana. A myrmidon who isn't overkill speed without any strength, and a samurai with great durability, contrary to the usual squishiness of myrmidons. 

[SavageVolug]

I enjoyed putting Hinatta into weapon master as he already had good defense by the time he was ready to promote not to mention strength. I thought why I don't I captialize on Hinatta's strength and defense stats as well as his tendency to level up these areas? In short Hinatta in Weapon Master turned out quite well for me, Hana I put into swordmaster as becoming a weapon master wouldn't increase her strength or defense that much. I found I liked Hinatta better because he was a myrm with strength and a pretty good HP growth as well as speed and if a game gives you a myrm who either has or gets a lot of strength that myrm usually is instantly on the team.

However every myrm does not need to have crazy strength as I can think of a few who good myrms who are not necessarily particularly strong. Like Guy, Joshua ect. these myrms were fantastic but don't automatically have high strength. I would say to fix myrms give them at least a decent HP stat and growth, make it so that they can dodge attacks it feels like GBA myrms were dodge freaks while the ones in Fates can't even sidestep. It feels like GBA myrms could dodge very early on while those in Fates have to wait till their promotion if not later before that happens fix this, (I would say a very similar thing can be said of most other units in Fates).

[Shadow Mir]

On May 7, 2017 at 1:00 AM, Augestein said:

It does help. The point of Swordmasters is basically to be 1 range archers. IE, they don't fight on enemy phase. Vantage is used as a safe guard for when you screw up. The other 3 moves that they get are meant to assist with their blowing up enemies. That's why dual katanas help because it ups their chance of fighting enemies at WTA and being able to stack that with their duelist blow skill. A unit like Hana for instance, is meant to kill an enemy, and then have her passive skill go off and damage other enemies nearby. Whether you are unimpressed or not doesn't mean that they don't have a niche now that doesn't just make them "crappy heroes that have less durability and no axes." 

So what? Doesn't make them all that great, as I see it. Hana in particular doesn't help your case - she's better off in a different class, one where she doesn't need to put herself on the chopping block every time she attacks. Also, I consider her personal very questionable in terms of usefulness, so that's no help either.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia