(spoiler discussion) What do you think of the story?

[Sayyyaka]

I liked it, just needed more bias towards war as the true path.

[Kahvi]

Maybe it's just because I played Fates before it but I did enjoy the story's moral ambiquity more. Even if I didn't like all the villains at least most of them seemed to have some understandable motivation instead of just being obviously evil. Even if, I was hoping it would turn out that Duma wasn't all that bad after all. I mean, it seemed that he just wanted people to work for their achievements and not just loiter around like Mila's servants. Not to mention Mila seemed kind of evil in that one cgi cutscene. But nope, Duma just went mad, now you have to get rid of him.

Also, they made it clear that Rudolf wanted to kill the dragons for the benefit of people, even if they'd hate him for it. But when Alm finally slayed Duma, the people just seemed to forgive him. Weird.

The whole argument between Alm and Celica at the end of part 2 just seemed stupid. Celica hadn't seen Alm in years so why did she assume that he'd want to be king or something? Okay, maybe she was just worried about him but it just seemed stupid of her.

And one minor complaint I have is Mycen in general. He didn't seem to want Alm to leave Ram village even if he knew that Alm should do this and that and save the continent and whatever. Once again, he could've just been worried about him like Celica but he sure didn't express it in any way. Mycen just seemed to be kind of a jerk to Alm for the whole game.

One thing I found amusing was the whole "all dragons have madness inside of them". Even if it probably just meant divine dragons in Valentia and Archanea, it would explain why dragon laguz were so stuck on their ways.

But all in all, I liked the story. In fact, I'd say Echoes became one of my all time favourite games because of it.

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Kahvi said:

Celica hadn't seen Alm in years so why did she assume that he'd want to be king or something? Okay, maybe she was just worried about him but it just seemed stupid of her.

It was an emotional reaction, which aren't the same as logical ones. Keep in mind she did have a vision where Alm gets rekt by Rudolf, so if Alm doesn't lead the Deliverance, then that vision doesn't come to pass. Now, Rudolf killing Alm never happens but Celica had no way of knowing that.

1 hour ago, Kahvi said:

And one minor complaint I have is Mycen in general. He didn't seem to want Alm to leave Ram village even if he knew that Alm should do this and that and save the continent and whatever.

It's not that he didn't want Alm to leave Ram, it's that he didn't want Alm to leave Ram just cuz, which is what Alm wanted to do in the beginning. Remember at the end of Act 1, where Mycen tells Alm that he isn't angry that Alm left without permission? That's because Alm left Ram with a purpose: to free Zofia. That's what Mycen wanted.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I like it just fine. Its not perfect, and parts show how old the game's concept really is, but its not a big deal. It was good enough for me when in comes to FE narrative. 

[Thane]

What do people think of Clive just handing over leadership to Alm immediately upon meeting him, and then they are instantaneously capable of taking Zofia Castle?

[Loki Laufeyson]

25 minutes ago, Thane said:

What do people think of Clive just handing over leadership to Alm immediately upon meeting him, and then they are instantaneously capable of taking Zofia Castle?

I assumed that was because he knew Alm was Rudolf's son. Yet, now im not so sure. Mostly because after the reveal, Clive doesnt say "yeah i knew." At least not immediately. Ive not completed the main story just yet, so im not sure if Clive ever talks about it. Clive doesnt act at all surprised when Alm lifts the Roysl Sword...

[Thane]

Just now, Loki Laufeyson said:

I assumed that was because he knew Alm was Rudolf's son. Yet, now im not so sure. Mostly because after the reveal, Clive doesnt say "yeah i knew." At least not immediately. 

He did not. Don't you remember how shocked he was when Fernand revealed he wasn't Mycen's grandson? That was pretty much the only reason he handed over the leadership in the first place, and then they're instantly able to charge one of the enemy's most important strongholds.

2 minutes ago, Loki Laufeyson said:

Clive doesnt act at all surprised when Alm lifts the Roysl Sword...

This was a low point of the story for me. They pretty much laugh it off, but if no one can use it, yet Alm can, and the legend says only royals may wield it, then what do they think it means? It's so silly. It's like how everyone in Valentia has X-ray vision and can see Alm's Brand through his thick, armored gloves.

[Armagon]

3 hours ago, Thane said:

What do people think of Clive just handing over leadership to Alm immediately upon meeting him

Well, it wasn't immediate but Clive was like "well fuck, Mycen isn't here. Hey kid, can you lead the Deliverance in his place?" And Alm was like "excuse me?"

3 hours ago, Thane said:

and then they are instantaneously capable of taking Zofia Castle?

Listen, it's Fire Emblem. When a Lord leads an army, they are capable of doing anything and never losing unless the Lord's name is Sigurd. Remember when Ephraim took over a castle with just himself and four other men? Or when Roy conquered the "unconquerable" Castle Ostia? Yeah, basically same deal here.

 

2 hours ago, Thane said:

This was a low point of the story for me. They pretty much laugh it off, but if no one can use it, yet Alm can, and the legend says only royals may wield it, then what do they think it means? It's so silly.

Same. They all laugh it all as a tale tale, but Alm was like "let someone else try it" and Lukas was like "nah man, you're the only one who can use this."

Though the lowest point for me was when the pendant Alm got from Celica dispelled Berkut's curse. There was never implication that the pendant could do that. Hell, the pendant is never even mentioned past the prolouge and that one picture of Alm holding the pendant as he's leaving Ram. Aaaaaaaaaand i just realized that when Alm and Celica reunite at Zofia Castle, she doesn't ask him if he still has the pendant.......when she's the one who gave it to him.

[Thane]

5 hours ago, Armagon said:

Well, it wasn't immediate but Clive was like "well fuck, Mycen isn't here. Hey kid, can you lead the Deliverance in his place?" And Alm was like "excuse me?"

I'd qualify literally their first meeting as immediate.

5 hours ago, Armagon said:

Listen, it's Fire Emblem. When a Lord leads an army, they are capable of doing anything and never losing unless the Lord's name is Sigurd. Remember when Ephraim took over a castle with just himself and four other men? Or when Roy conquered the "unconquerable" Castle Ostia? Yeah, basically same deal here.

Yes, actually, and Ephraim storming a castle with four people is still one of the silliest moments in the entire series and one of the most anime things in it. That doesn't change the fact that it's weird how the Deliverance was pushed back and then, without allowing us to see them planning or preparing anything, they're capable of storming the castle.

[Ae†her]

On 5/26/2017 at 1:08 AM, KongDude said:

While I do like it's story, these are some pretty big flaws/plot holes. I'm only on Act 4, but I still don't understand how people notice Alm's mark. Alm literally covers his hand and has a freaking gauntlet on and Berkut somehow manages to see it.

So Alm was the "grandson" of Mycen, who was known as a pretty famous general (I think that's what it was), and because of that, he was instantly promoted to leader of the Deliverance. It was to raise troop morals and some other thing about being worthy. I just think it's weird that Clive thought it was smart to give a teenager, who's never actually experience the world, the army that will free their country. I would understand if he'd given it to Mycen, but to a teenager who you didn't even know about?

Yeah, I feel if they had given Alm some notable feat that he accomplished earlier on when he was only beginning to enter the field of combat, then it would've made more sense for Clive to promote him as leader of the Deliverance instead of just assuming that as the assumed grandson of the legendary Mycen he must be a prodigy. Sometimes its okay to make a newbie character a little bit more of a badass, just not anywhere near Kirito-level, otherwise it would then just be stupid.

[Ae†her]

2 hours ago, Thane said:

Yes, actually, and Ephraim storming a castle with four people is still one of the silliest moments in the entire series and one of the most anime things in it. That doesn't change the fact that it's weird how the Deliverance was pushed back and then, without allowing us to see them planning or preparing anything, they're capable of storming the castle.

That's the thing with FE games, the lords almost for some reason never seem to have hundreds of ally pawns and knights to aid them in huge wars and important battles, hundreds of flashbacks from Awakening arise when I think about this too. I wish sometimes that to be a little bit more realistic in the FE Games, the developers would put a couple of enemy-fodder ally green units on the corners of your side of the map to aid you in combat, so that when you have battles with your main units it actually looks a little bit like how a battle in war should be. Also I wish that they would add some context that tells you there is a war between entire armies occurring somewhere else away from the special group of units that you control.

[Thane]

3 minutes ago, Altina said:

That's the thing with FE games, the lords almost for some reason never seem to have hundreds of ally pawns and knights to aid them in huge wars and important battles, hundreds of flashbacks from Awakening arise when I think about this too. I wish sometimes that to be a little bit more realistic in the FE Games, the developers would put a couple of enemy-fodder ally green units on the corners of your side of the map to aid you in combat, so that when you have battles with your main units it actually looks a little bit like how a battle in war should be. Also I wish that they would add some context that tells you there is a war between entire armies occurring somewhere else away from the special group of units that you control.

I think it's commonly accepted unless stated otherwise that your units don't represent your entire army. The difference between the assault on Zofia Castle and many other similar moments in the series is that it's literally the first thing you do after Alm becomes the leader, with no build-up, tactics discussion or even explanation as to how the Deliverance can suddenly push back after having been the underdogs throughout the entire conflict.

[Ae†her]

Just now, Thane said:

I think it's commonly accepted unless stated otherwise that your units don't represent your entire army. 

That's why it seems to strange to me why the various lords have their small bandwagon of units going secretly into castles to fight the other lord or mastermind enemy.

6 minutes ago, Thane said:

The difference between the assault on Zofia Castle and many other similar moments in the series is that it's literally the first thing you do after Alm becomes the leader, with no build-up, tactics discussion or even explanation as to how the Deliverance can suddenly push back after having been the underdogs throughout the entire conflict.

Pretty much. It doesn't even make sense why Alm is entitled to lead them when they literally know nothing about him other than that he's the grandson of the legendary Mycen. The deliverance must've been going pretty down hill if Alm could just take leadership like that when granted it by Clive, which from conversations with Clive showed that the deliverance wasn't even at that bad of a level to begin with. Which from this logically speaking makes me think Clive is mentally ill and tired beneath his cheerful to mildly happy demeanor, but before that we can call PIS on the story.

[MPhoenix]

On 26.5.2017 at 4:04 PM, Salamud said:

You could have just made Jedah try to make Duma Great Again so that he'll keep Rigel strong and also get revenge on Zofia for not helping them during a famine (maybe even put a parallel with Chrom not letting Robin kill himself to stop Grima for good). You could have had him trying to turn the continent into one fit for Duma. You could have even had Jedah not do his dastardly plan talk when Celica was looking. But nooo.

This! I feel that would be perfect to make Jedah a more than just evil antagonist. Like he wants to restore Rigel his own way by sacrificing Celica to Duma to rid him of his insanity. That way he would even be more of a grey villan something I really want to see again. That simple change in my opinion could turn Jedah from being a generic villan to a great villan!

[L9999]

While I liked the story I have to agree with the popular opinion that it has problems and I felt this way before reading this thread. 

1) Why does Celica lashes out on Alm when he is rightfully chasing Rigel away from Zofia? It's not like he likes it, and just like Gray says "You think the emperor will send a food basket and say that he is sorry?" If the deal is about killing people then what about the 40(?) pirates she killed on the way to Zofia castle?

2) Why does everyone accuse Alm of wanting to become king? Yeah, he is a good guy but he is just doing his job. Another of Celica being dumb and assuming things.

3) Alm is too chill for his own good. He talks very calmly and treats everyone with great respect, even assholes like Fernand and Berkut. I mean, that is a good trait, but the whole point of Alm is supposedly representing Duma. He had no lines or actions suggesting he believed in dominance by power, no "Don't worry Celica, I'll crush those bastards." The closest we got was when Berkut X-rayed his hand Alm replied "Hey, what's the matter?! Aren't you going to fight?"

4) Celica swallowing everything Jedah said and Jedah being a stupid donkey by telling he will destroy the world or something, I don't know.

5) I felt I was watching Attack of the Clones whenever Rinea and Berkut were together. Berkut just kept shouting creepy tantrums and she just goes along with it. I didn't buy the happy ending for the two because we never see them talking in peace. Not to mention Rinea had 0 screentime and personality.

22 hours ago, Armagon said:

Though the lowest point for me was when the pendant Alm got from Celica dispelled Berkut's curse. There was never implication that the pendant could do that. Hell, the pendant is never even mentioned past the prolouge and that one picture of Alm holding the pendant as he's leaving Ram. Aaaaaaaaaand i just realized that when Alm and Celica reunite at Zofia Castle, she doesn't ask him if he still has the pendant.......when she's the one who gave it to him.

Oh boy, that whole sequence was worse than Celica being a suicidal idiot. I thought the "emergency mirror" Nuibaba gave Berkut was in itself a stupid concept from a parody anime. Then it summons creepy hands from the ground and I am blaffed thinking "why didn't any of the Duma idiots used this to kidnap Celica and kill all her friends?" "Why creepy hands? Why not petrification or flames?" OK, I suspend my disbelief and accept than creepy hands are holding Alm and his group and Emo Manchild is going to for the kill. And then the damn pendant frees him. I felt bad for Berkut for being cheated out of his victory, I was thinking "What kind of care bears bull**** is this!?" 

Edited May 29, 2017 by L9999

[Armagon]

3 minutes ago, L9999 said:

Why does Celica lashes out on Alm when he is rightfully chasing Rigel away from Zofia? It's not like he likes it, and just like Gray says "You think the emperor will send a food basket and say that he is sorry?" If the deal is about killing people then what about the 40(?) pirates she killed on the way to Zofia castle?

Well remember that Celica had a vision of Alm getting rekt by Rudolf. And then Alm blames her father for the war. It makes sense why Celica reacted the way she did. Was she making a logical argument as to why Alm shouldn't go to war? No. But emotional reactions aren't the same as logical ones.

8 minutes ago, L9999 said:

Why does everyone accuse Alm of wanting to become king? Yeah, he is a good guy but he is just doing his job. Another of Celica being dumb and assuming things.

Probably because people don't know Celica is actually Zofian Royalty. With no one to claim the throne, then it makes sense for the hero who freed Zofia to become the new king. And with Alm being that hero, well, it's easy to see where the assumptions come from.

11 minutes ago, L9999 said:

Alm is too chill for his own good. He talks very calmly and treats everyone with great respect, even assholes like Fernand and Berkut.

Well he knows why Fernand acts the way he does. And then he finds out Berkut is his cousin.
 

12 minutes ago, L9999 said:

Celica swallowing everything Jedah said and Jedah being a stupid donkey by telling he will destroy the world or something, I don't know. 

Yeah, Celica's naive trait really got her there. Although the same thing did happen in Gaiden, except in Gaiden, it was just "sacrifice your soul or i'll make Alm suffer" instead of "the Gods are going mad, and if they go completely mad, then everyone will die, including Alm, etc."

This honestly never bothered me though. Really, the only part of the story that did bother me was the pendant thing.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

15 minutes ago, L9999 said:

Oh boy, that whole sequence was worse than Celica being a suicidal idiot. I thought the "emergency mirror" Nuibaba gave Berkut was in itself a stupid concept from a parody anime. Then it summons creepy hands from the ground and I am blaffed thinking "why didn't any of the Duma idiots used this to kidnap Celica and kill all her friends?" "Why creepy hands? Why not petrification or flames?" OK, I suspend my disbelief and accept than creepy hands are holding Alm and his group and Emo Manchild is going to for the kill. And then the damn pendant frees him. I felt bad for Berkut for being cheated out of his victory, I was thinking "What kind of care bears bull**** is this!?" 

You know what... you actually bring up a very good point. That mirror was complete bs. There was not any sort of requirement/backlash for it at least for the crystal ball from Fates only someone with dragon blood or a person of strong magical power similar to Leo can use it or how the warp powder the Black Knight used only worked for him because he can handle the effects because someone ordinary would be too exhausted after using it, but here we actually have a magical item that ANYONE can use with no repercussion or prerequisite. 

[Wayward Alchemist]

On 5/28/2017 at 4:40 PM, Thane said:

What do people think of Clive just handing over leadership to Alm immediately upon meeting him, and then they are instantaneously capable of taking Zofia Castle?

Three words: Morale-boosting figurehead. That's pretty much all Clive intended Alm to be, and honestly I feel like Clive is still making the decisions until well into Act 3, or maybe even until the beginning of Act 4. Until this point, Clive and Lukas are basically Alm's training wheels and Alm is just there to serve as an icon, but then Clive begins to see Alm as more than just a fighter and a good morale booster when Alm gives his speech about rescuing Delthea regardless of her individual usefulness.

Additionally, Clive states in one of his base conversations that he couldn't issue the order to march on Zofia Castle because he was too afraid of what would happen to his authority and his cause (and Mathilda) should he fail. He needed somebody to issue the order in his stead so that the blame wouldn't lie with him if they didn't take the castle back. It was honestly selfish of him, but very well played nonetheless.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Wayward Alchemist

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

My observation of Clive is that he's pretty much the Kaname Ohgi (check out Code Geass) of Fire Emblem. So no I don't have a good opinion of him at all. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Othin]

I really enjoyed the story despite its issues, but one thing that particularly bugged me was the lack of follow-up to Celica's dream vision. It's never clear how that potential future could have come to pass and was instead averted, and it turns out Rudolf had no interest in killing Alm anyway. It's especially weird in context of the preceding "Alm kills Celica" scene, which did happen, but turned out to be after Rudolf's death, while the Alm vs Rudolf scene implied it was taking place afterwards, with Rudolf somehow being responsible for Celica's death. Also the battle in the dream vision was way longer than it needed to be anyway; there were like three times when I thought Alm was about to get killed but instead he just keeps fighting for longer before it finally happens, even though there had already been enough setup for it.

I also didn't like how when Berkut dies, Rinea immediately forgives him and starts talking about how great of a person he is. He really, really isn't.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Othin

[nhaer042]

In general I like the story but when I finally learned Rudolf's motivations I got kind of confused. I get the need to hide Alm from the Duma Faithful and I can get behind the idea people would be against him for wanting to seal away Duma and Mila but there are some bits that confuse me that I'd like some clarification on.

1) Why was there no attempt until late game on Rudolf's part to tell everyone what was really going on? I know he said people would be against him for fighting the gods but wouldn't it have maybe helped a little to at least try to fill everyone else in on what was going on? 

2) I can't wrap my head around why Rudolf had to let Alm kill him. I just don't get why it was necessary. It kind of ties in to my first point too. Rudolf seems to be keeping key stuff secret for no real reason from what I could tell.

I'm well aware that I might be missing something and would really like someone to point out if I'm missing anything. I like this game's plot a lot for the most part but these struck me as some pretty glaring issues. 

[mikethepokemaster]

On 5/27/2017 at 5:21 AM, Folt said:

Welcome to the style of visual novels.

(Oh, and this is something that many JRPGs have done. It's not exclusive to this game, other FE games, or other JRPG series in general.)

I know that I watch anime bro lol. I love jrpg games too.

[maninbluejumpsuit]

4 hours ago, Othin said:

I really enjoyed the story despite its issues, but one thing that particularly bugged me was the lack of follow-up to Celica's dream vision. It's never clear how that potential future could have come to pass and was instead averted, and it turns out Rudolf had no interest in killing Alm anyway.

Might have to do with the creepy Duma-aura that engulf's Rudolph's body as he was going to kill Alm in Celica's dream. I'm replaying the game to see if I can make sense of some things I may have missed like that.

[Jotari]

I have mixed feelings on the story. On the good side, it stayed true to the more interesting themes and plot twists presented in the original game (I particularly like how they kept the idea that Celica's father was basically a rapist), wasnt afraid to get more expansive with its story telling and acutally connected to Arcanea in a way that didnt annoy me (when previously I wanted Gaiden to be a seperate continuity). A lot of the new personalities were also well done and thankfully not super gimmicky.

On the bad side some of the dialogue at the start was ridiculously expository, as I feared Alm's personality was more friendly nice guy rather than aggressive war lord who firmly believes in his path, Conrad ended up being surprisingly pointless and it felt like they had no idea what to do with Berkut after inventing him. The ending also tried very hard to still be the same dungeon as the original game while still having extra plot shoved into it and I don't think that worked out all that well. The flashforwards also added very little and actually took away any surprise I might have felt with that one twist.

 

All in all I probably enjoyed the plot more than the other 3DS games but I reckon a large part as to why was because I'd played Gaiden first and thus knew exactly why they were fumbling when they did.

 

Also no personal combat conversations T.T Why IS, why?

[BrightBow]

6 hours ago, Othin said:

I really enjoyed the story despite its issues, but one thing that particularly bugged me was the lack of follow-up to Celica's dream vision. It's never clear how that potential future could have come to pass and was instead averted, and it turns out Rudolf had no interest in killing Alm anyway. It's especially weird in context of the preceding "Alm kills Celica" scene, which did happen, but turned out to be after Rudolf's death, while the Alm vs Rudolf scene implied it was taking place afterwards, with Rudolf somehow being responsible for Celica's death. Also the battle in the dream vision was way longer than it needed to be anyway; there were like three times when I thought Alm was about to get killed but instead he just keeps fighting for longer before it finally happens, even though there had already been enough setup for it.

My guess for that scene is that it was primarily shot in order to have a fancy action scene to be put into trailers, with little regard on how it could fit into the story. Kinda like that Chrom vs Masked Marth cutscene. I did get a similar impression with other scenes too, like when Celica dramatically rushes up the stairs of Sofia castle as if she was in some life or death situation. She even desperately reaches forward during that scene, which doesn't even begin to make sense in the context that the scene actually appears in the game.

Edited May 30, 2017 by BrightBow