What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Ottservia]

10 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

The big deal is that in addition to its purpose being distractingly artificially cynical, it was terribly thought out and lazy, and it didn't seem to occur to anyone involved that it turns Azura and Corrin into sociopaths, and that none of the Hoshidan children should sympathize with their motivations for doing any of it. The story constantly tries to depict Corrin as this noble tragic figure for dragging his reputation to hell for the sake of saving the world, when in reality he's being a massive, selfish coward who, aside from his siblings, is the only one who stands to gain in any way from stopping Garon this way. For that matter, while it's at least conceivably understandable why Corrin would value the lives of the Nohrian royal family over the lives of thousands of innocent people and the security of an entire country, it's never ever explained why Azura, who lived nearly her whole life in Hoshido and thus is way more attached to Hoshido than Nohr, would even want to end the war this way when she has nothing to gain from it.

This isn't a motivation that, when explained to Sakura and Hinoka, would be remotely excusable. What exactly is Hinoka supposed to find understandable or heroic about "I love my Nohrian siblings so much that I'd have let your entire country burn to the ground if it meant I didn't have to fight them"? Why the hell do Hinoka and Sakura forgive him? Where, anywhere in the story, is Corrin called out, by anyone, for agreeing to Azura's nonsensical plan for selfish reasons?

Y’see now that’s a fair counter-argument to my point. Because yes, Azura is in fact a very inconsistent character in conquest. Again do I need to mention chapter 15? Cause that chapter is all kinds of bullshit that much I will agree. Also Corrin is called out for following this weird plan just not by any character but rather the story itself because Azura kinda “dies” in the end and Azura herself is a representation of the truth they seek so her disappearing like that is supposed to represent that they chose the wrong path and that the truth has disappeared and is now out of their reach.

As for why Azura chose to side with Corrin well it’s because she chooses to trust them over Hoshido. Corrin is someone she shares a sort of kindred relationship with so it’s understandable that she trusts. I feel they could’ve presented that better but ehhh what can ya do. As for Hinoka and Sakura’s forgiveness at the end well that’s just a matter of them relishing in the fact that it’s all over. They are willing to forgive and forget for the sake of a brighter future which makes some kind of sense at least to me anyway.

[Flere210]

The job of a writer is to create the illusion that such contrivance does not exist.  The authors invented a bunch of magic plot devices so that good people have no choice other than slaughter each other and is nobody faults, but in doing so, the laid the artifice bare.

Good people don't kill other good people unless some really dire circumstance happens. You need to construct a situation that people will not buy unless you are really careful. And Fates's writers had the carefullness of a jackhammer.

The throne stuff is not such a circumstance because it's not like Garon cannot be killed whitout revealing his true form. It may be thematically necessary for the slime to be revealed, but it is not from a practical perspective. There is no reason why in universe Corrin should not just try to put a dagger in Garon's neck while he sleep whitout invading a country.  If the point of the story is ti find out who the real enemy is, why the bloody hell adter we found out we spend a lot of chapter fighting more fake enemies just so everyone else will know who the enemy is? Again, if they stabbed Garon while he sleep, won't his body dissolve, turn into goo, or something else that prove his true identity?

 

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Also Corrin is called out for following this weird plan just not by any character but rather the story itself because Azura kinda “dies” in the end and Azura herself is a representation of the truth they seek so her disappearing like that is supposed to represent that they chose the wrong path and that the truth has disappeared and is now out of their reach.

That's... not how getting called out works, you realize? He gets "punished" in the exact same way for doing the right thing in siding with Hoshido.

[Ottservia]

7 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

That's... not how getting called out works, you realize? He gets "punished" in the exact same way for doing the right thing in siding with Hoshido.

Y’see the problem with that is that choosing Hoshido is the wrong choice as well as shown by the narrative of Birthright’s story. Revelations is the only real true path here. 

 

9 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

The job of a writer is to create the illusion that such contrivance does not exist.  The authors invented a bunch of magic plot devices so that good people have no choice other than slaughter each other and is nobody faults, but in doing so, the laid the artifice bare.

Good people don't kill other good people unless some really dire circumstance happens. You need to construct a situation that people will not buy unless you are really careful. And Fates's writers had the carefullness of a jackhammer.

The throne stuff is not such a circumstance because it's not like Garon cannot be killed whitout revealing his true form. It may be thematically necessary for the slime to be revealed, but it is not from a practical perspective. There is no reason why in universe Corrin should not just try to put a dagger in Garon's neck while he sleep whitout invading a country.  If the point of the story is ti find out who the real enemy is, why the bloody hell adter we found out we spend a lot of chapter fighting more fake enemies just so everyone else will know who the enemy is? Again, if they stabbed Garon while he sleep, won't his body dissolve, turn into goo, or something else that prove his true identity?

 

Now this is something I can agree with cause that’s something they could’ve explained within the story and it would’ve only taken like three lines of dialogue. All they would need to do is have Corrin question Azura and ask her why they can’t just assasinate Garon and then have her give a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why that can’t happen then boom plot hole solved. Again chapter 15 is bullshit.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Ottservia

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Y’see the problem with that is that choosing Hoshido is the wrong choice as well as shown by the narrative of Birthright’s story. Revelations is the only real true path here.

If you're trying to suggest that Azura's death is Corrin's divine punishment for not choosing a plan that only didn't turn out exactly like Birthright due to contrived dumb luck (literally the only reason Xander behaves any differently from Birthright is because he witnesses Garon having an outrageously convenient psychotic breakdown), it would probably help if there were any explanation at all in the story for why she needed to sing to weaken dragon Garon and possessed Takumi, but not a gigantic mad astral dragon god.

[eclipse]

12 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

While we know next to nothing about the Nohrian court, I don't think it's farfetched to think that people generally didn't like Garon. His own children lived in fear of him on a daily basis and he put down insurrections with extreme prejudice. Xander could score points with potential supporters by being a more even handed ruler. Also, if Xander cooperated with the Hoshidans, he might secure more cordial relations with them and get Nohr more aid.

It could go both ways - those who defy Garon get beaten down, while those that curry his favor are promoted.  Thus, any sort of insurrection by the prince may very well see opposition by nobles who'd be willing to sell out the royal family for some short-term gain.  Politics is tricky.

3 hours ago, SubwayBossEmmett said:

I mean they weren’t scared to change Echoes overall and I say it was to Celica’s detriment overall.

Not to mention Berkut was a failure of a villain and without his VA would be seen as Iago tier villain losing and accomplishing nothing at every turn. 

Does Berkut have some motive, besides "well I look evil so I'm going to be evil", which is Iago in a nutshell?  I'll take a weak motive over none at all.

As for the rest - the "princess in distress" thing is a running theme for the early FE games (it might stop being an issue in Thracia, but it's still there in the first Elibe game).  While it takes a bit of thinking to understand Celica's motives regarding some of her more idiotic decisions, I don't think it's fair to assume that the audience is capable of dissecting it that far.

[Ottservia]

10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

As for the rest - the "princess in distress" thing is a running theme for the early FE games (it might stop being an issue in Thracia, but it's still there in the first Elibe game).  While it takes a bit of thinking to understand Celica's motives regarding some of her more idiotic decisions, I don't think it's fair to assume that the audience is capable of dissecting it that far.

to be honest, Celica's campaign is probably the best part of echoes's story cause in a vacuum and with minor tweaks it could actually work as its own stand alone story. Cause the main issue with Celica in SoV is the fact that Alm and Conrad make her look more stupid than she actually is. Like literally just remove Conrad from the story and it would already be ten times better. 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

If you're trying to suggest that Azura's death is Corrin's divine punishment for not choosing a plan that only didn't turn out exactly like Birthright due to contrived dumb luck (literally the only reason Xander behaves any differently from Birthright is because he witnesses Garon having an outrageously convenient psychotic breakdown), it would probably help if there were any explanation at all in the story for why she needed to sing to weaken dragon Garon and possessed Takumi, but not a gigantic mad astral dragon god.

Yeah Fates's story could've benefited from more world building and in-universe explanations to things. That is something I will agree with.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Ottservia

[Icelerate]

I think the FE fanbase over simply certain aspects of how well written an FE protagonist is by talking about their intelligence. For example, I think it is a fallacious argument to say character X sucks because they are dumb or character Y is well written because they are smart. I'm glad the Shounen fanbase doesn't complain about their protagonist's lack of intelligence. 

23 hours ago, Jotari said:

The best Camus is obviously Path of Radiance Oliver. He even copies the original Camus by coming back to life and joining the heroes in a sequel.

I know a lot of people dislike how he comes back in Radiant Dawn but I think it was a good move from a writing perspective. Sanaki will need someone from the old guard to assist in consolidating her power as there will be a power vacuum after the story ends. Furthermore, Oliver isn't inherently evil and has good intentions. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by Icelerate

[Alastor15243]

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

I think the FE fanbase over simply certain aspects of how well written an FE protagonist is by talking about their intelligence. For example, I think it is a fallacious argument to say character X sucks because they are dumb or character Y is well written because they are smart. I'm glad the Shounen fanbase doesn't complain about their protagonist's lack of intelligence.

The difference is that everyone in the story knows Luffy is an idiot and it's a deliberate part of his character and charm, and they aren't canonically the ones giving crucial orders in a strategy game. Meanwhile Corrin is a bumbling ignorant fool, and yet the only time to my knowledge where Corrin's abysmal intellect is seriously questioned by anyone is in his C support with Leo.

Rule number one of strategy games: Never make the player character an idiot. Because it is exceedingly distracting and immersion-breaking when the player is unable to believe the person they're controlling is capable of what the player is making them do.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Alastor15243

[Icelerate]

6 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Rule number one of strategy games: Never make the player character an idiot. Because it is exceedingly distracting and immersion-breaking when the player is unable to believe the person they're controlling is capable of what the player is making them do.

I've never felt that the things I do are incapable of being done by the person I'm controlling so that's never been a flaw of any of the FE games I've played through. 

I haven't played Fates so I could care less about Corrin. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by Icelerate

[Alastor15243]

Just now, Icelerate said:

I've never felt that the things I do are incapable of being done by the person I'm controlling so that's never been a flaw of any of the FE games I've played through. 

Then you clearly have a higher opinion of some protagonists' intelligence than I do, but that doesn't really refute the point. My point is that being an idiot main character of a game where the objective is to be smart is a lot worse than being an idiot main character in an action anime where the protagonist succeeds by being other things. The entire premise of the gameplay, the canonical feat it is your objective to emulate to re-create the history of the story being told, revolves around being smart. If the player character isn't smart, how can any of your intelligent achievements possibly be canon? And if they aren't canon, then what the hell is going on? It's like having a main character of a hack and slash game who consistently and almost without exception gets their ass kicked in cutscenes by enemies you just spent ten minutes wiping the floor with.

[Icelerate]

10 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

The entire premise of the gameplay, the canonical feat it is your objective to emulate to re-create the history of the story being told, revolves around being smart. If the player character isn't smart, how can any of your intelligent achievements possibly be canon? And if they aren't canon, then what the hell is going on? 

Based on what is the first sentence you made true? Who says my achievements in the gameplay are particularly intelligent? Even if they are intelligent, what proof is there that an idiot couldn't have made those same decisions? Also, prove that the main character, other than the four avatars represents the player.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Icelerate

[Alastor15243]

7 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Based on what is the first sentence you made true?

Because your intelligence, your ability to do math, your puzzle-solving skills, your power of observation, your ability to improvise, and your risk assessment skills, are all things that Fire Emblem games test. People who are better at these things will do better than people who are worse.

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by Alastor15243

[Icelerate]

Just now, Alastor15243 said:

Because your intelligence, your ability to do math, your puzzle-solving skills, your power of observation, your ability to improvise, and your risk assessment skills, are all things that Fire Emblem games test. People who are better at these things will do better than people who are worse.

That doesn't necessarily mean you have to be particularly intelligent to be able to successfully beat an FE game. Do you think every single person who has beat a single FE game is particularly smart and that it is impossible for anyone in the FE community to be dumb? Because that's what you're basically implying. If you think there is not a single dumb person in the FE fanbase, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. 

Shounen fights also have a ton of tactics. I hope you're not implying that characters like Naruto aren't capable of using their heads in their fights. I'd actually argue that the strategies and tactics in shounen fights are more sophisticated and in depth than FE strategies. 

[eclipse]

. . .this argument can continue when FE is remade into a shounen anime.

[Alastor15243]

21 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

That doesn't necessarily mean you have to be particularly intelligent to be able to successfully beat an FE game. Do you think every single person who has beat a single FE game is particularly smart and that it is impossible for anyone in the FE community to be dumb? Because that's what you're basically implying. If you think there is not a single dumb person in the FE fanbase, I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

I'm pretty sure you know full well that's not what I was saying.

What I am saying is that when you play a game, you are playing the part of the protagonist, and most of the goals you accomplish in the game are things that the protagonist has canonically done. So it's pretty damned distracting when the game gives me no reason to believe the protagonist would be capable of the things I'm making them do. I don't feel like I'm playing the role of a character, I feel like I'm literally controlling them, possessing them and imbuing them with abilities they canonically do not have, like they're only any good at their job because of my influence.

Yes, due to the drastically simplified and gamified nature of gameplay, it's way easier to successfully command an army to victory in the game than it is to successfully command such a battle in real life, but that makes character stupidity less acceptable, not more. Because canonically, in the world of the game, the player character commanded that much more difficult real life battle, which would have taken skills the game has gone to absolutely no effort to convince me they possess.

Edit: Sorry Eclipse, didn't see your reply. A little confused about what's wrong with this particular discussion, but I won't argue.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Alastor15243

[Icelerate]

14 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

What I am saying is that when you play a game, you are playing the part of the protagonist, and most of the goals you accomplish in the game are things that the protagonist has canonically done. So it's pretty damned distracting when the game gives me no reason to believe the protagonist would be capable of the things I'm making them do. I don't feel like I'm playing the role of a character, I feel like I'm literally controlling them, possessing them and imbuing them with abilities they canonically do not have, like they're only any good at their job because of my influence.

 

What exactly do you do that you don't think the protagonists of the various FE games aren't able to do? I've never encountered a situation where I did something that I felt was so smart that none of the protagonists were incapable of replicating. 

Quote

 Yes, due to the drastically simplified and gamified nature of gameplay, it's way easier to successfully command an army to victory in the game than it is to successfully command such a battle in real life, but that makes character stupidity less acceptable, not more. Because canonically, in the world of the game, the player character commanded that much more difficult real life battle, which would have taken skills the game has gone to absolutely no effort to convince me they possess.

Are you now claiming stupid people can never be successful on the battlefield in real life? 

[Ottservia]

Y’know what I don’t like? When people criticize a character’s actions based purely on a rational or logical basis when those things aren’t at all the biggest influence on a character’s actions. It’s their emotions. People are driven by emotion and emotions are very irrational things thant can make us take seemingly illogical actions. Of course logic plays its part but a character’s emotional state is by far more influential in what actions they take. It’s the author’s duty to make those emotions as understandable as they can. To make people relate to those emotions and understand the actions they take cause that’s just how people work.

[Fire Brand]

Since there's been so much Echoes talk, I think Celica's route is better than Alm's in every way. Better maps, better music, better locations, better story, better characters. 

[Alastor15243]

2 hours ago, Fire Brand said:

Since there's been so much Echoes talk, I think Celica's route is better than Alm's in every way. Better maps, better music, better locations, better story, better characters. 

Having just completed Gaiden a few weeks ago and hating Celica's half with a flaming passion, I'd love to hear an elaboration on this.

[Fire Brand]

12 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Having just completed Gaiden a few weeks ago and hating Celica's half with a flaming passion, I'd love to hear an elaboration on this.

Well, music is a very subjective thing, but I love Celica's 2nd map theme, while Alm's I cannot stand. 

As for maps, Celica's route had so much variety in location. The boats, beach, desert, swamp, graveyard and also the sacred grove from Twilight Princess. Whereas Alm was the same boring field over and over and over. Both were pretty tedious, but Celica had far more variety and thus I found it more enjoyable. That and I've always enjoyed boat and desert maps. 

As for the story and characters, I found them far more engaging. Celica felt far more... real than Alm. She had flaws, and was frequently called out for them. Sure, she made mistakes, but don't we all? Alm was confusingly written, he felt like a weird mix of Micaiah and an avatar character (most notably Byleth-tier worship). He hardly ever did any wrong, and even when he was called out for his actions, he was always in the right in the end. His supporting cast I also found far more dull than Celica's. I loved Saber, Conrad, Mae and Boey, whereas Gray, Tobin and Clive, while not terrible, certainly weren't in the same tier imo. In a game with a already mediocre story the characters can really make or break it. 

[Alastor15243]

26 minutes ago, Fire Brand said:

Well, music is a very subjective thing, but I love Celica's 2nd map theme, while Alm's I cannot stand. 

As for maps, Celica's route had so much variety in location. The boats, beach, desert, swamp, graveyard and also the sacred grove from Twilight Princess. Whereas Alm was the same boring field over and over and over. Both were pretty tedious, but Celica had far more variety and thus I found it more enjoyable. That and I've always enjoyed boat and desert maps. 

My problem is that nearly every way they added variety was terrible. Boats were about bottlenecking enemies and taking potshots at them slowly, desert maps combined the obnoxiousness of FE1's "we're going to make you move several turns before meeting a single enemy" nonsense with terrain that slowed nearly everyone except the ones vulnerable to that fortress of archers, half the maps spammed a ridiculous amount of undead at you via cantors, and then they made you wade your entire army through swamps for multiple turns before fighting anything.

Meanwhile all of Alm's maps played to the strengths of the engine and game design,  being straightforward brawls with very limited healing available. Though they fell apart too eventually later on.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Alastor15243

[Fire Brand]

9 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

My problem is that nearly every way they added variety was terrible. Boats were about bottlenecking enemies and taking potshots at them slowly, desert maps combined the obnoxiousness of FE1's "we're going to make you move several turns before meeting a single enemy" nonsense with terrain that slowed nearly everyone except the ones vulnerable to that fortress of archers, half the maps spammed a ridiculous amount of undead at you via cantors, and then they made you wade your entire army through swamps for multiple turns before fighting anything.

Meanwhile all of Alm's maps played to the strengths of the engine and game design,  being straightforward brawls with very limited healing available. Though they fell apart too eventually later on.

I'd still rather take flawed variety over none at all. Imo neither were great, but as a whole I prefer variety in bad maps over samey bad maps. 

[Jotari]

17 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Here's a question. What makes all of that "Contrived" anyway? cause at the end of the day stories are inherently contrived when you really think about it. I mean suspension of disbelief is a subjective component in regards to criticism now obviously there are times when stupid bullshit happens in a story but overall small contrivances like that honestly don't really matter a whole lot to me personally. The hoshidian throne thing was foreshadowed in like chapter 5. The slime monster thing was foreshadowed in birthright so I wouldn't consider that contrived either also Garon being a slime monster is kind of the point of the narrative. The only plot device there I'd consider "contrived" would be the Valla curse and the reveal of slime Garon which is a problem exclusive to conquest's story. Chapter 15 of conquest is a weird one that brings up a huge gaping plot hole in the story that could be easily fixed but it isn't for whatever reason. It's a weird chapter that brings up far too many thematic inconsistencies with the world and the role of Azura's character within the narrative. Though aside from that, I don't think the story is all that forced or contrived. It only requires slightly above average levels of suspension of disbelief about enough to believe that a new kingdom exists at the bottom of a giant chasm which is whatever standard fantasy faire for me so.

Being foreshadowed doesn't make something not contrived. Those elements are contrived because they are clearly forced into the world to make the narrative meet certain plot beats. It doesn't feel like it's a natural part of the setting that develops in a sensible way. The Hoshidon Throne "has" to be the only thing that can reveal Garon because the story needs to end on a Hoshido invasion to mirror birthright. The Valla curse "has" to exist to stop Azura telling anyone about it and ending the story there. Likewise the stone she uses to tell Corrin about slime Garon "has" to be the only one in existence and "has" to break immediately after use because otherwise everyone would know and Garon would be over thrown then and there. All these plot points are forcing the story to go in a specific direction to reach a specific conclusion rather than being a natural element of the world that makes sense. Valla isn't comparable at all as Vala is a layer of the plot. It's an element that's worked into the story to play off of other plot points. It doesn't exist purely to service one extremely specific condition to make one specific thing happen (or not happen). See what I mean? It's not a case that I have a hard time imaging Hoshido has a magic throne, it's the fact that Hoshido clearly has a magic throne only to reveal slime monster Garon at the end and for literally no other reason at all (and I'd even go so far as to say Slime Garon was completely unnecessary since it's literally the same entity as regular Garon. It was just done as a cheap shortcut to get Xander on side rather than writing him better and actually giving him a character arc).

Edited October 7, 2019 by Jotari

[NekoKnight]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Those elements are contrived because they are clearly forced into the world to make the narrative meet certain plot beats. It doesn't feel like it's a natural part of the setting that develops in a sensible way. The Hoshidon Throne "has" to be the only thing that can reveal Garon because the story needs to end on a Hoshido invasion to mirror birthright. The Valla curse "has" to exist to stop Azura telling anyone about it and ending the story there. Likewise the stone she uses to tell Corrin about slime Garon "has" to be the only one in existence and "has" to break immediately after use because otherwise everyone would know and Garon would be over thrown then and there.

There are even more layers of contrivance. Only Vallites can travel through the water way to get to Valla, which means they'd have to all go to the chasm if they wanted to reveal it to the Nohr sibs. But Iago is apparently keeping tabs on the group for no reason at all, which means that it would be hard for them to get to the chasm unnoticed. And the whole plot has to happen because the siblings will never accept that Garon is evil, despite all the supporting evidence, unless they can see that he's a literal monster.