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Where was the racism against Lyn handled oh so well? Is it in Rath's joining chapter (6?), with Marquess Araphen aka "Gets Recycled Into the Silver Card Carrier Who Kishuna Silences"?

Not to say attempting discrimination conflict is a bad thing, or that other instances of it in FE at either a personal or national level were handled well. But I don't recall Lyn in this regard being amazing.

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1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Where was the racism against Lyn handled oh so well? Is it in Rath's joining chapter (6?), with Marquess Araphen aka "Gets Recycled Into the Silver Card Carrier Who Kishuna Silences"?

Not to say attempting discrimination conflict is a bad thing, or that other instances of it in FE at either a personal or national level were handled well. But I don't recall Lyn in this regard being amazing.

It's not amazing if you consider FE7 to be a story about racism, which it isn't. While racism is featured, the bigger story relevant to Lyn is her identity and place of belonging. She sets out on a journey to be reunited with her last surviving kin. Lyn mode plays out like the classic "secret princess returns to her 'homeland' and inherits the throne" story and it ends "happily ever after". But then we get to Eliwood/Hector mode where Lyn isn't happy because she's in a foreign world, is overburdened by her unexpected duties as the substitute marquess and she becomes ashamed of her Sacaen upbringing when before she was fiercely proud of it. In most of her endings, she decides that she belongs in Sacae, although starting a relationship with either Hector or Eliwood makes her change her mind.

Edit: For more examples of racism beyond Marquess Araphen, Lyn's grandfather's prejudice towards the people of Sacae is the whole reason why Madelyn had to leave in the first place. Also, it's suggested in her Eliwood support and ending that Lyn has cause to think her Sacaen heritage will bring shame to her grandfather and that her marriage to Eliwood was highly controversial. Racism is certainly not a central theme of the game like Tellius but it's there.

Edited by NekoKnight

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More opinions:

Eirika is better than Lyn and Hector. I don't know how they won CYL at all, especially Hector.

L'arachel is one of the best characters in fe. Her entrance in Ephraim ch. 11 was pure gold, and I loved every second of it.

Heath is overrated. 

The sound effects depicting events in the GBA games are confusing. (In Blazing blade, the part where Elbert stabs Nergal is a good example, but not the most confusing.)

The trainees are all really good. Ross joins at a time where he can get easy kills and rapidly becomes tough and powerful, Amelia is hard to train, but she is game breaking powerful as a general and terriffic as a Paladin, Ewan has monstrous Mag, is the best dark magic user in the game and actually does big damage right from join time. I'm really bad at fe,  but I managed to train all three without one skirmish.

 

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1 minute ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm curious about why you don't think SoV is a good story with that mindset. You've said in a thread you created that you value thematic resonance more than plot structure so shouldn't you be able to handwave the flaws of SoV in the name of the theme?

"Celica trusting Jedah when she obviously shouldn't is the point of SoV! Celica's story theme is about the dangers of blind devotion and over-reliance on the gods!" or "Alm's story theme is the circumstances of one's birth do not determine their value. It doesn't matter if he's secretly the son of the emperor and a chosen one with super blood, the point of the story is that he was raised a commoner and achieved great things!" I've seen these exact opinions by other users on Serenes. Do you disagree with them?

It's funny that you mention SoV because I have very mixed feelings about that story. You seem to be misunderstanding how I tend to interpret stories because like you said I value thematic resonance over anything else. The thing about SoV's story is that it contradicts itself in a way that's extremely blatant and frustrating. It pretty much just kills the entire narrative right then and there when you think about it for more than five minutes. It also doesn't help that I see almost nothing but praise for a story I find to be worse than fates so there's a personal bias issue I hold with it as well. 

I don't handwave the flaws of a story that's just something you have to understand and frankly, I find it a little insulting if that's what you think of me. I'll criticize a stories flaws when I see them but fates is a really weird case in that regard(the same goes for code geass now that I think about it) because a lot of the places it stumbles still serve some kind of purpose no matter how poorly its handled. With SoV however, it's just kind of a mess. Lemme put it this way. Fixing fates's flaws as a story is harder than fixing SoV. Fixing SoV is as simple as just slightly altering Alm's character arc(Contrary to what most people think Celica's arc is actually really well handled. It's just held back by the presence of both Conrad and Alm). As to those points raised by other SF users, I'm gonna say I agree with a couple of them but not all of them. Let me explain:

 "Celica trusting Jedah when she obviously shouldn't is the point of SoV! Celica's story theme is about the dangers of blind devotion and over-reliance on the gods!"

This one I do agree with because that is the point of the narrative and it's handled well if you ask me(well in a vacuum anyway). Celica's whole arc is about how her blind kindness can be taken advantage of and will ultimately lead her to ruin and depravity. Her kindness gets taken advantage of because she lacks the strength to protect herself which is what Alm is for. That's what the narrative is trying to say and it's not exactly subtle about it.

"Alm's story theme is the circumstances of one's birth do not determine their value. It doesn't matter if he's secretly the son of the emperor and a chosen one with super blood, the point of the story is that he was raised a commoner and achieved great things!"

This argument is dumb and stupid and I hate it. Why? well it's because while, yes, that is the point of the narrative, it's blatantly contradicted at literally every turn. It's frustrating that people don't see that. The way Alm is written directly contradicts the themes of his story and because of that the entire narrative falls apart. It doesn't feel like they even understood the themes of their own story. It's bad writing no matter how you slice it. Him being raised as a commoner doesn't change the fact that his royal blood is the only reason he's able to any of the cool shit that he does. and the thing about those contradictions is that they aren't small ones that can be overlooked. No, they're fucking plot breaking contradictions that are literally never addressed within the story. 

Fates is a different beast entirely because you could say the problem lies in Corrin being an avatar but not necessarily because then you would lose something I feel fates does well in getting unique reactions from it's players as they run through the story. Another problem people like to cite is the lack of moral gray so injecting more sympathy into the villains would solve the problem, right? No, not really because they're supposed to be like that(just look to Xander's speech to Gooron at the end of conquest to get an idea of what I mean). Again, every "problem" I see people say needs to be fixed about fates, I feel like you'd lose something if you did that. I dunno if anything I just said made any sense it's just how I feel after going through fates again. Cause despite my rants about Alm, there's nothing wrong with a character contradicting themselves. It just needs to be acknowledged by the narrative in some way. In the case of Xander and Ryoma it is(well more so Xander than Ryoma). What happens to Xander in birthright for refusing to listen to reason? He accidentally kills his sister and suffers through a near endless grief only to end with him essentially committing suicide. I dunno about you but I don't think that's the narrative's way of saying he's right for being a hypocrite. Again fates is a weird beast of a story that I can't quite explain how I fully feel about it.

40 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Even if Anankos being the father were one of the original ideas, I think it's a good guess that Mikoto was originally the birth mother of the Hoshidans. Apart from her looking strongly Japanese (and not looking anything like the other Vallite royals we know of), her not being the real mother creates a screwy timeline where Mikoto is in Hoshido and romantically involved with Sumeragi while the latter is still married and has two more children with Ikona after Corrin is born. The change drags Sumeragi and Ryoma's characterization through the mud and destroys the parity of Conquest and Birthright. Corrin's real birthright is to Valla (but even that's a lie if you believe what the art book said about Mikoto and Arete not being siblings). It's not like Corrin not being Hoshidan is meant to be a important plot point in Birthright. It's only understood if you get one of four S supports, and Corrin doesn't react negatively to the revelation as you might expect.

You see this is what I mean when I say fates's biggest flaw is its world building or y'know lack there of cause the timeine and politics are just bunch of random confusing bullshit meant to justify the things that actually make sense. Cause the world building and timeline have more holes in it than swish cheese which brings down a good chunk of the story if you ask me. I don't think it's as big of an issue as others claim it to be because I don't think pointing out every little plot hole in a story really matters(cause it really doesn't in the grand scheme of things) but it's still a pretty decent stain on the story's overall quality.

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11 hours ago, Ottservia said:

You see that makes more sense and that is correct but family is still family regardless and that’s what I feel the story is trying to convey. Corrin may have less of a personal attachment to them but they are still family to them regardless of that fact cause they are connected through Mikoto. That is the message I feel the game wants to get across.

 

Ryouma lying to Corrin actually does make sense if you look at the story with the idea that the path of Birthright is wrong. If Ryoma told the truth that would actually go against the ideas of “finding the truth” that the game is going for. That is a claim I can 100% back up. Ryoma essentially tries to convince Corrin through Surface level half truths, lies, and bias. Nohr is responsible for Mikoto’s death, Nohr lied to you, why would you fight for Nohr who are full of lies and deception. The hypocrisy here with Ryoma I think is intentional cause the entirety of BR’s story has Corrin failing to see through deception(see Iago’s illusions, Zola, and Flora) but in the end they fail to grasp the truth because they’re only looking the surface level information and jumping to conclusions. This is why Birthright’s ending feels so unsatisfying cause it is. Corrin failed to find the truth because they chose the wrong path further emphasized by Azura dying cause she’s a physical representation of the truth(see how in every route she’s the only one Corrin can truly trust). Ryoma being a hypocrite is supposed to emphasize the fact that he shouldn’t be fully trusted and that siding with Hoshido is the wrong choice.

I could buy that, if the story ever actually called out Ryoma on his lies and suggest that he in any way acted insidiously. Even in Revelations he's not the one to tell Corrin the truth (within the story at any rate), Sumaragi is. The game pushes no narrative that any of the royal siblings are bad people (all the bad stuff about Nohr is shifted to Garon, Iago and Hans) who Corrin should cut ties from. If it did then Revelations would end without any of the Siblings being family, instead it ends with all of them being considered great people. If deception from the family was in any way part of the theme, then this would have been addressed, instead it is absolutely glossed over.

Birthright's ending feeling unsatisfying is also your opinion. I personally found it the best ending (and narratively the best route overall) out of the three.

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7 hours ago, Ottservia said:

every "problem" I see people say needs to be fixed about fates, I feel like you'd lose something if you did that.

How about removing the paywall for the golden ending? Or is paying 20 bucks extra part of your themes?

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The trainees are all really good. Ross joins at a time where he can get easy kills and rapidly becomes tough and powerful, Amelia is hard to train, but she is game breaking powerful as a general and terriffic as a Paladin, Ewan has monstrous Mag, is the best dark magic user in the game and actually does big damage right from join time. I'm really bad at fe,  but I managed to train all three without one skirmish.

It's not that they're bad because of how 'difficult' it is to train them. They're bad because it's not very efficient to train them. Ross is a bit of an exception because he does join early and has a specific niche, but he's not amazing. If you want you can look at their average stats and compare them to similar characters by the way; you'll find that their stats aren't that impressive.

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1 hour ago, Thane said:

How about removing the paywall for the golden ending? Or is paying 20 bucks extra part of your themes?

You don't pay 20 buck for an ending, you play that for 15 or so new maps, and a bunch of new content.  Radiant dawn, the largrst fire emblem game have 45 maps. Fates has more than 80. Maps not characters(so things like the wind village are counted only once).

Now, we can discuss that many of those maps are bad, but usually bad games cost as much money as good games and they still put effort to make those.

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6 hours ago, Jotari said:

I could buy that, if the story ever actually called out Ryoma on his lies and suggest that he in any way acted insidiously. Even in Revelations he's not the one to tell Corrin the truth (within the story at any rate), Sumaragi is. The game pushes no narrative that any of the royal siblings are bad people (all the bad stuff about Nohr is shifted to Garon, Iago and Hans) who Corrin should cut ties from. If it did then Revelations would end without any of the Siblings being family, instead it ends with all of them being considered great people. If deception from the family was in any way part of the theme, then this would have been addressed, instead it is absolutely glossed over.

That’s a good point, Xander is called out for his bullshit a lot actually in all three stories but Ryoma hardly ever is even his death in conquest is portrayed as more noble if anything. I do think the deception theme is still present(Because everything else lends so well to it) but now that you mention it Ryoma really should be called out on his bullshit more. Cause the whole deception of the Nohr siblings is addressed through Garon as he is the one perpetuating the lies about Nohr being a super militant nation when it actually isn’t all that bad. The deception of the Hoshidian siblings aren’t really addressed though. That’s an interesting point I’ll have to think about.

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Birthright's ending feeling unsatisfying is also your opinion. I personally found it the best ending (and narratively the best route overall) out of the three.

What I mean by unsatisfying is that the story ends on an incomplete note like say what you will about revelations but there is a certain sense of finality to its ending you don’t get with Birthright or Conquest. The ending of the other two paths are rather bittersweet what with two royals dying as well as Azura. Corrin doesn’t really get rewarded much by the end either and some plot threads are still left hanging(Was Garon really Garon? What was the thing that possessed Takumi? Etc.) it’s because the story is incomplete by that point.

 

1 hour ago, Thane said:

How about removing the paywall for the golden ending? Or is paying 20 bucks extra part of your themes?

That’s not so much a flaw in the story as it is just terrible business 

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2 hours ago, Thane said:

How about removing the paywall for the golden ending? Or is paying 20 bucks extra part of your themes?

I agree with this, this is something all games do now and it's frustrating. So I can't say that I would hold this against just Fates, but it's a major flaw, for sure.

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21 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That’s not so much a flaw in the story as it is just terrible business 

A terrible business practice that affects the game, not to mention the themes you claim the story has. "Finding the truth" sounds good on paper, but the simple fact of the matter is that it's a question of which version of the game you've bought. There are no choices apart from that.

Fates does not hold up to scrutiny. From the way people act and react to what's happening to the way the plot is structured, it's a giant mess. Trying to find deeper meaning behind a game that nickle and dimes you and giving such an incomplete product in return sounds almost like someone with buyer's remorse trying to justify their purchase.

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23 hours ago, Benice said:

Sacred stones is better than Blazing blade, and I have a whole list of reasons why I think that.

Of the lords in BB, the only one I was even mildly invested in was Eliwood. Lyn was okay, and Hector was an exceedingly boring character. In SS, I found Eirika to be a very good lord character, especially with her character development throughout the story on her route. Even though Ephraim was sort of similar to Hector, he demonstrated great growth throughout the story, and doesn't kill people for fun and I think  that Eirika and Ephraim had better interactions with each other throughout the story than the BB lords did.

From a gameplay standpoint, I enjoyed SS more than BB also.  First of all, Lyn mode exists and the game forces you to play it  in your first playthrough. . I found the defense chapter with Dorcas and Natalie fun, as well as the side chapter searching for Ninis's grace. The worst chapters were 9 and 10 though. Both bosses were completely over-leveled, and the only  person on my team who could deal more than 3 points of damage in  a round for either boss was Lucius. And then his tomes broke. Eventually, I did beat both bosses, although it was a a very long process and broke down the momentum the story was getting.

 

The rest of the game was littered with "Merely okay" chapters,  alongside a few good  ones. Some of the chapters, I did not enjoy at all. (I was playing Eliwood mode.)

CHAPTER 17, Pirate ship: This was less interesting than the skirmishes in SS. On one side we have: a bunch of mercenaries and one archer! On the other, we have a handful of shamans! WOW! I cleared  the map from enemies in three turns, then waited for two more turns so I could heal people and watch for reinforcements and exp. I then polished the boss off and finished the map.

 

18x: Imprisoner of magic: At first glance, this looked like it would be a fun chapter: the boss had a seige tome, and there were a good amount of enemies. Then Kishuna shows up, at which point I just waltzed up to the boss, Slapped him, then left. There was pretty much no point to this chapter, especially since nils did not get to lvl 7, (I don't understandf how you would get him to lv. 7) and I was playing Eliwood's route.

 

Ch.21: A defense chapter where the boss spawns right in front of you. I could have beaten this chapter real fast, but I needed to recruit Heath and Rath. After I recruited them, I used Canas to OHKO The the boss and ended the chapter.

Ch. 22: A chapter that shouldn't exist. Pent broke this chapter. I killed exactly three enemies in this chapter: The mage near Fae's house, Paul and one of the wyvern rider reinforcements. Pent killed everything else. I didn't want to waste my time getting 700 exp with Ninian, and Pent killed the last enemy before I could find most of the items. (I got the ocean seal...)

Ch. 24: Another poorly designed Defense chapter! Hooray!! About twenty generic Soldiers and an overpowered boss!!! I accidentally Aggro'd Vaida with Hector on turn 4 when almost everything else was dead. I essentially just put Hector on the forts and used Pent's psychic to keep him alive. (Hector had capped def on a fortress and Vaida still dealt 14 dmg a hit.) I was trying to break Vaida's lance with Hector's face, but the chapter ended before the Spear broke. I found the chapter appallingly boring. At leat ch. 22 ended in about four turns, this one lasted 11.

Kenneth Ch. 25: Another incredibly boring chapter! The snow makes it so nobody can move at all for about 7 turns, (including the enemies) so I just wait for the Purge user and the Bolting user to break their tomes. The Wyvern riders try to charge my units, but get slapped and clapped by Florina. After that, there was essentially no threats. I walked up to the boss after beating the few enemies who were in my way and ORKO'd him with Canas. (This was quite the pattern. Canas was one of four units who turned out well and could double everything with Luna equipped.)

Ch. 26: Unlike the other chapters I have listed here, this wasn't on the list for annoying or gimmicky. I actually despise this chapter with all my being. One, as I previously stated, only four of my units were any good, and I didn't want to use Florina in a fog of war/ darkness map where there was a good chance an archer could sneak up on her and kill her. Canas was incredibly powerful, and was nearly undammageable by anything. Kent was fairly well-rounded and Hector could tank every physical object thrown at him, and had a good chance at OHKO'ing most enemies. Unfortunately for me, everyone else was terrible, which meant that I had to put a lot of effort into protecting my weak units while moving forward.  Two, Jaffar had bad A.I and bad luck. His killing edge broke on turn 4 because he only critted one enemy, who would have died on the hit anyways. At which point he stopped moving even though he was ajacent to an empty pillar. I couldn't even take the fast route to get to him because all of my other units needed my good ones, and Sain Lv. 19 cav likely would have been ORKO'd by the mercenary guarding the door near the sport where Jaffar was. Jaffar got killed seven times before I gave up on restarting the chapter and started using save states to ensure that he wouldn't die that fast. I finally managed to get Jaffar alive into turn 10, but I couldn't get Nino to talk to Jaffar because A) Jaffar was completely surrounded by powerful enemies who would easily kill her and B) I had to kill Ursula before Nino could start moving. Canas was the one doing all the heavy lifting this chapter, so ittook me three turns to get him into a range where he could attack ursula. (Canas was my only option since everyone else was tacking Chunky-thick damage from the bolting) I never did get Nino to talk to Jaffar, because nobody could have gotten to Jaffar in time and the fog of war kept on getting  Lyn or Ninian surrounded. (Ninian was far sturdier than Lyn, which was sad because lyn was lv. 20) After a lot more time and effort, I beat the chapter but Jaffar was unobtainable. I moved onto the next chapter feeling upset about the previous chapter. Then I realized I also didn't recruit Dart because I slapped him in 16x. I gave up on the game and consoled myself by jumping on a trampoline.

 

I have already written too much, so to be consice, I'll state that I played Eirika's route of SS a second time just to promote one unit a different way. I also understand I'm gonna get zapped for this opinion.

I don't see how - Sacred Stones in general felt like it was rushed overall. Like it was more intended to be a quick filler game while IntSys was working on its first 3D outing (and its first console outing since Thracia). Storyline wise, there felt like there was too much stuff that went unexplained or wasn't given enough attention; Orson in particular is a big one, since he only appears three times throughout the game. The general reaction among the protagonists goes from "Orson betrayed us!" to "Orson can't even take care of himself" from one appearance to the next. That's a red flag right there. The lords' interactions felt like they were nothing to write home about, largely because they don't even interact for a huge majority of the game, unlike was the case with Blazing Blade's lords. It doesn't really help that some of those few interactions are very easy to miss (like chapter 8, where Eirika starts on one end of the map, whereas Ephraim comes in as a reinforcement on the other end of the map). Character wise, both of the twins fell flat. Eirika started out well enough, but lets herself get tricked into giving up a MacGuffin by possessed Lyon despite L'arachel's warning it was no use (which came at the beginning of said chapter, mind you). Ephraim felt like a dumbass who somehow manages to be a Gary Stu at the same time. Like the fact that he charges an enemy fortress with only three knights at his side, one of which is the aforementioned Orson. Said chapter also happens to be a really big low gameplay wise, but more on that later. And when he succeeds... it turns out to have been a trap. His response to this development? To go east. As in, even deeper into enemy territory. It's a surprise he doesn't manage to get captured or even killed.

Gameplay wise... it's hard for me to see Sacred Stones as better there, too. You have chapter 5x, which is one of the worst designed chapters in the game owing to you having limited inventory and only four units, which is not helped by Ephraim being a dumbass who can't equip himself and his men well (outfitting yourself and two of your men with Steel Lances in a game where those tend to be heavy to the point of being impractical... Yay). Then we have Fluorspar's Oath, where you have to deal with Bolting... where the user is in the middle of the map, Fun times, that. And let's not forget the phantom ship, with fog of war and a boss that spawns in way too close to your position. Or Eirika chapter 14, with a super evasive boss, because those are always (read: never) fun. There's also chapter 12 on Eirika's side, which is a long, winding map with little of note. All those bother me much more than most of the maps you mentioned (the only one I'd agree with you on is Battle Before Dawn, and that has everything to do with it just being sucktastic in general, especially on Hector hard mode).

EDIT: It doesn't help Sacred Stones's story that the plot literally feels like it's only a thing because the main characters are idiots. Or that Lyon is a case study in how NOT to write a tragic villain.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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18 minutes ago, Thane said:

A terrible business practice that affects the game, not to mention the themes you claim the story has. "Finding the truth" sounds good on paper, but the simple fact of the matter is that it's a question of which version of the game you've bought. There are no choices apart from that.

Fates does not hold up to scrutiny. From the way people act and react to what's happening to the way the plot is structured, it's a giant mess. Trying to find deeper meaning behind a game that nickle and dimes you and giving such an incomplete product in return sounds almost like someone with buyer's remorse trying to justify their purchase.

Here we go again with the whole “over analyzing” argument. Look I’m not saying what IS did with fates wasn’t scummy because it was but all things considered pointing that out as a huge narrative flaw is a tad on the nitpicky side cause for one you could say that about any video game you buy and two in the grand scheme of the overarching narrative it means very little.

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10 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

It's not amazing if you consider FE7 to be a story about racism, which it isn't. While racism is featured, the bigger story relevant to Lyn is her identity and place of belonging. She sets out on a journey to be reunited with her last surviving kin. Lyn mode plays out like the classic "secret princess returns to her 'homeland' and inherits the throne" story and it ends "happily ever after". But then we get to Eliwood/Hector mode where Lyn isn't happy because she's in a foreign world, is overburdened by her unexpected duties as the substitute marquess and she becomes ashamed of her Sacaen upbringing when before she was fiercely proud of it. In most of her endings, she decides that she belongs in Sacae, although starting a relationship with either Hector or Eliwood makes her change her mind.

Thank you for framing it that way for me. I can see this. Sure her returning to Sacae is to get rid of her and Caelin for FE6, but it isn't a badly made excuse.

However, am I supposed to feel guilt for shipping EliLyn now?

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1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

That’s a good point, Xander is called out for his bullshit a lot actually in all three stories but Ryoma hardly ever is even his death in conquest is portrayed as more noble if anything. I do think the deception theme is still present(Because everything else lends so well to it) but now that you mention it Ryoma really should be called out on his bullshit more. Cause the whole deception of the Nohr siblings is addressed through Garon as he is the one perpetuating the lies about Nohr being a super militant nation when it actually isn’t all that bad. The deception of the Hoshidian siblings aren’t really addressed though. That’s an interesting point I’ll have to think about.

What I mean by unsatisfying is that the story ends on an incomplete note like say what you will about revelations but there is a certain sense of finality to its ending you don’t get with Birthright or Conquest. The ending of the other two paths are rather bittersweet what with two royals dying as well as Azura. Corrin doesn’t really get rewarded much by the end either and some plot threads are still left hanging(Was Garon really Garon? What was the thing that possessed Takumi? Etc.) it’s because the story is incomplete by that point.

 

That’s not so much a flaw in the story as it is just terrible business 

Sure, Birthright and Conquest put in hooks to encourage you to play Revelations, but I don't feel as if they're major enough to really call there endings satisfying. It's still a complete story where every major plot point is resolved. Path of Radiance has an even more blatant hook for its sequel with everyone being like "Hey guys, we never found who that Altina woman is!" But I wouldn't call Path of Radiance's story unsatisfying. Now compare that to something like Virtue's Last Reward where the "endings" are very much unsatisfying, as that's a game where there is a single "true" ending (which also ends with plot hooks as it happens, yet still feels like a complete experience). Revelations is very much intended to be the "complete" route, but Birthright and Conquest are still fully furnished games and stories in their own right.

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43 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Thank you for framing it that way for me. I can see this. Sure her returning to Sacae is to get rid of her and Caelin for FE6, but it isn't a badly made excuse.

However, am I supposed to feel guilt for shipping EliLyn now?

No need for guilt. Almost everyone is going to die by the time FE6 rolls around so you can't make their fates worse.

Being a Blazing Sword fan is suffering.

 

 

Edited by NekoKnight

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Though Fates may not be the best of the bunch and on the lower end of the series for me, I strongly appreciate it for what it was trying to do. I really want to see IntSys revisit Fates at some point with the right creative talent and minds behind the wheel to give the story concepts the game it deserves. There’s a lot of potential in pitting an East Asian-themed kingdom with a European one that wasn’t quite used for the final product, in particular.

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16 hours ago, Benice said:

The trainees are all really good. Ross joins at a time where he can get easy kills and rapidly becomes tough and powerful, Amelia is hard to train, but she is game breaking powerful as a general and terriffic as a Paladin, Ewan has monstrous Mag, is the best dark magic user in the game and actually does big damage right from join time. I'm really bad at fe,  but I managed to train all three without one skirmish.

The issue here is that they're not efficient to train. Well, that, and the fact that the extra effort isn't even rewarded that well. As to the characters themselves...Ross is your typical foot axe - powerful, but slow and weak defensively. That's all I need to know to deduce whether he's good or not (he ain't). Saying Ewan is the best dark magic user is a case of "damned by faint praise" - that implies he's outclassed by everyone else besides Knoll (and even then, Knoll can instantly promote to Summoner, so it's not like Ewan holds all the cards there either). What's more, dark magic isn't even good in Sacred Stones anyway, as Luna got nerfed to the point of uselessness, Gleipnir is the worst Sacred Twin weapon, and everything besides Flux is not worth using, so it's not like a dark magic user is a valuable niche. Amelia has to compete with Seth, Franz, Kyle, and Forde for cavalry units, yet I'd still make her one anyway because Great Knight and General are terrible classes, while Paladin is good.

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Id say the trainee units are fine for FE8's difficulty level, it doesnt really matter if another unit is more efficient, since every person can play to their own style. Maybe not everybody wants to do a solo Seth playthrough because it's kind of boring to them, I feel that way. So I agree, the trainees are fine the way they are.

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Ot's really depending on what you consider good. If considered againist the enemy, they are good, because in ff8 everything has good enought stats, if compared againist other units of similar roles, then ony Ross is ok.

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Since people were talking about Fates earlier, I think the two $20 "expansions" to the base game were fairly priced and I don't consider that nickle and diming players for the full story (that's what the other DLC is tho). Each new route is a full game worth of missions so you end up paying double for 3 full routes. There are a fair number of reused assets and maps so it kind of evens out to about 2 games of content for double the price. Of course, I think it's better if the full game is in a single package but I think you're getting your money's worth with this pricing model.

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Related to the above, Three Houses has a terrible DLC plan where you are forced to buy in bulk for a steep price. I only want some of the content but I need to purchase a bunch of garbage just to get it. I wouldn't be surprised if they kept this model going forward, even though it's extremely consumer unfriendly. I rarely bought DLC before and this isn't very encouraging.

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Not sure how unpopular this is but IS should never do multiple routes again. There hasn't been a single game in the series that didn't suffer for this decision, either from the game being shorter (SoV/SS) or the development resources/time being stretched too thin in order to do the campaign justice (Fates/TH). At best, I think they could manage a single narrative with minor route branching like BB.

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39 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

There hasn't been a single game in the series that didn't suffer for this decision, either from the game being shorter (SoV/SS)

Hey! TearRing Saga didn't suffer from it! It just opted to have you play and see the 40-all-mandatory-chapters story of only two of its four main-main characters. ...Which wasn't a great idea in its own way. Because I was left really wanting to play as Alm with a twin sister Manakete, both raised by Eyvel and her father Swordmaster Mycen, with their blood aunt and one blood uncle being Minerva and Michalis, growing up alongside Manakete Celica who Young Travant loves, and now I'll never get a chance. Damn you Kaga!

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

Related to the above, Three Houses has a terrible DLC plan where you are forced to buy in bulk for a steep price. I only want some of the content but I need to purchase a bunch of garbage just to get it. I wouldn't be surprised if they kept this model going forward, even though it's extremely consumer unfriendly. I rarely bought DLC before and this isn't very encouraging.

As an add on to this. So far I think the 3H DLC is the worst DLC we’ve gotten in any game that’s had it. Say what you will about awakening, fates, or SoV but at least were more than just cosmetics and some special item grinding here or there. The 3DS titles had DLC that added not only better ways to grind but also added story content and character interactions in the form of scramble DLCs, future past, heirs of fate, and the rise of the deliverance. And those added story maps are arguably better written than the base games themselves.

The most we’ve gotten out of three houses DLC was Jeritza and HE’S FREE?! Like come on IS you can do better than this. For $20 it really isn’t worth it

Edited by Ottservia

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Of the FE games that have DLC, I’d actually argue that Fates had the best one. The two routes are practically full games. Heirs of Fate is my favourite ‘additional story’ DLC so far. 

IIRC, Echoes’ DLC pass costs more than the base game and outside of the additional story, there wasn’t really anything that special. 

Three Houses is the most disappointing. The best thing we’ve got is Jeritza but he’s free. He also feels incomplete cause he can fit so much more than two supports. At least they ‘tried’ with him though, unlike Anna, who is paid and has less characterization than some unplayable units.

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