Cuphead In: Don't Deal With the Mafia (Game Over)

[C. C.]

I don't think no kill tonight necessarily means there's no vig, because there are roles like even-night vig or activist vig. besides, vig probably shouldn't shoot until n2 anyways.

anyways I changed my mind about Cala after rereading the thread overnight. I said yesterday that they had the best vote on Djimmi because they were the only one who was suspecting Djimmi the whole time. While that lends credibility to the reasoning behind the vote, the timing is still suspect. I don't find it scummy that they didn't revote right after, unvoting Cagney but it is suspicious that they didn't vote Djimmi until other people did. Basically, I think it's plausible that the Djimmi thing was just supposed to be a side thing, and then once they saw that people were actually willing to lynch Djimmi they voted onto the wagon.

I think Sally/Wally's votes were also still bad just because of how much weight they were giving to someone not saying much right as RVS was ending. Sally's is worse than Wally's for suddenly saying Djimmi was bad when she had never talked about him before (Wally has somewhat of an excuse since that was his first post of the day), but I think the timing of Cala's vote has more scum intent. Scum Sally probably would have thought it would be easier to get a Rumor lynch going, as opposed to defending her? (unless they're buddies)

##Vote: Cala Maria

other possible scum: Wally, Sally, Kahl, Matchstick (everyone other than Sally is mainly here from PoE)

i think everyone else is town. ran out of time so I'll expand on why later. i'll be back in a few hours, and I'll read Matchstick's post then (contender for longest post ever???)

[Olivier]

I don't think looking primarily for strong townreads is inherently unhelpful/scummy, if you PoE enough people you find scum that way. That's how town won Persona 5 mafia, for example. My main issue with the Rumor slot is I feel their townreads aren't really explained super well (one liner "this is a good look" or w/e is easy to fake) and uncertainty that I'm giving them too much leniency because it's such a weird playstyle

[Estelle]

On 2/5/2018 at 10:24 AM, Cagney Carnation said:

also @ Werner literally what am I supposed to do there's not much else I had to comment on before I left. you guys focus too much on "they aren't memorable so they must be scum" which I realize makes me a hypocrite considering what I voted Grim for but do any of you really genuinely think I'm lurkscum.

Oh, right, it was here.

I didn't say you were lurkscum.  I said you were a wallflower.  If I think you're scum, I'll say so outright, not make a pun based off of your avatar.

Don't like this post because it's an overreaction.  Not enough to lynch this slot, though.

On 2/5/2018 at 7:47 AM, Cala Maria said:

Not lynching: Captain, Werner

Probably town but all reads feel the same: Beppi(I can literally summarize all of his reads as him not remembering as much about other players)

Should be town but the fuck is that vote?: Rumor Honeybottoms

Questionable start but doesn't have a lot going on: Cagney Carnation

Good start then vanished: Baroness Von Bon Bon

Who?: Wally Warbles, Sally Stageplay

His play is frustrating but I guessed his identity and am waffling hard: Grim Matchstick

I don't give  a fuck if this one gets lynched: Hilda Berg(yeah, I can't say anything about someone who refuses to contribute to the discussion)

Lurkscum Lol: Djimmi the Great

And back to this.

That's an impressive amount of town reads, and the one definite scumread is so because of supposed lurking.  This doesn't sit well with me.

23 minutes ago, Dr. Kahl said:

...I guess that makes up for my salt at the lynch (side note: what the fuck is a timewinder).  Somewhat.  Sorry for not being on at the end of the phase, I...fell asleep.  Not like it would have made a difference either way...

Regarding the Djimmi votes, from my understanding Cagney's and Beppi's were purely consolidation.  I don't know how to feel about them consolidating on a wagon that they didn't even feel good about in the first place.  It's hard to get a read off of because two people did it.  In retrospect, I think I was too harsh on Wally's vote because maybe he just didn't convey his priorities very well, but Sally's is still bad and I'm not really bothered by Cala's.

Grim not changing his vote the entire day is odd ( @Grim Matchstick Please explain this further), but I don't remember any of his content bothering me.

Baroness' vote is bad because she calls out Captain's turbowagon despite basically agreeing to one herself (I dunno if she was the first or second vote on the wagon at the time of her vote, but it amounts to the same thing).  

Not bothered by the next three votes.

Rumor is bad because she unvoted without explaining herself, as if that'd fix all of the problems with her slot.  The lack of self preservation (as pointed out by Captain) in not voting the other wagon over herself is more likely to come from town, but it doesn't alleviate my issues w/the slot.  If Rumor came off as an inexperienced player, this would be more telling but that's not the impression I got, which is why I'd consider the play null.  Also her questions at the end didn't really accomplish anything, so what was even the point?

##Vote: Rumor Honeybottoms

Are you calling out bad votes, or calling out scum?  I see Honeybottoms in the form of a vote.  What about Baroness/Sally?

On 2/5/2018 at 2:25 PM, Sally Stageplay said:

Also, I get you're finding me hypocritical, but how exactly is that scum tell? If I was scum, would I really be dumb enough to point out how my sort of actions are scummy when someone else does it?

That's some lovely WIFOM.  It has nothing to do with how dumb you are, just whether or not you'd do it.

I think I'm done--wait, Grim post.  This quote is from that massive wall.

Quote

This is really scummy because talking about game theory/mechanics instead of analyzing is a pretty classic scumtell, and while people misuse those all the time I feel confident in this, and it adds to the feeling that despite claiming the Djimmi lynch was bad, everything said and done after that was encouraging it.

This reads like hindsight in regards to Baroness.  Yes, that lynch was bad, but it had to be done.  Otherwise, we'd be arguing over a slot that disappeared.

Don't like that Beppi read at all.  If you can be busy/irritated, Beppi can be sick.

The rest of the reads hinge on the assumption that Beppi is scum, which I think is sloppy at best, and scummy at worst.  What if Beppi drops dead in the middle of this phase and flips town?

Djimmi's lack of associative reads sucks.  Of the people that were on at the time, Baroness' worries about a hammer reads as town to me, though her insistence on not using the Quote button is annoying.  I have enough to read about, and I don't want to play "hunt that quote with no name".  Maria's list post makes me extremely uncomfortable, as does the two quotes I clipped from Sally (over two posts).  Honeybottom's lack of scum reads is bad, as well.  Grim's wallpost just make me feel a whole lot worse about that slot.  I can't vote for all four at once, though I wish I could.  For now, I'll go with this:

##Vote: Rumor Honeybottoms

I was going to vote elsewhere, but realized that this is the crux between my reads on Sally/Grim.  Both of them defend Honeybottoms' lack of scum reads.  Someone else also posted about Honeybottoms not being worth a vote in D1, but I don't remember who that was.  Maria's an odd stand-alone.  Don't feel great about a slot that seems to think the entire game is town.  I'm well aware that at least one person in my scum pool is town, but I'll sort it out when there's more posts.

Dear Honeybottoms: WHO IS SCUM?

[Olivier]

It has nothing to do with Beppi being sick. It has to do with him lying. Only one read has anything to do with Beppi being scum (your slot), the Cala issues exist regardless of Beppi's alignment.

Your dismissal of the BvBB read also totally misrepresents the argument. BvBB had no issues with Djimmi but decided to consolidate on him anyway. Her post would be bad regardless of Djimmi's alignment

[Kamina]

Matchstick: I'm not getting lynched this phase, or any other phase, and I have good reason to believe that.

To just reply to things as I can begin to even process them:
1. I don't know what I'm supposed to have even lied about
2. Already explained why it felt like an OMGUS, and because you don't seem to have gotten it I didn't think it was an OMGUS before I realized they were voting each other.
3. I can still be too sick to properly digest a mafia game, but not sick enough that I have to stay in bed sleeping most of the day. Sure wish I had the time to sleep all day, though. By this logic, if you're so irritated at things both in and out of the game it's showing in the game, then you shouldn't be posting in the game.
4. Something tells me you didn't actually quite read through the rest of my posts. Didn't want to lynch Rumor at that time because I hadn't properly reread them yet, had less of a definite opinion on Maria than other people I felt less comfortable about, and I have literally no idea what you're trying to say about the vote Hilda? Sally was at the time a "so far not bothered by their content but need to read further into them", along with some basic questions.

[Olivier]

Quote

 in my defense I'm really congested right now and don't want to be here and I'm having a hard enough time keeping track of who is who with all these strange names.

That's from Beppi.

Quote

 hope you feel better soon but being sick isn't really an answer for pushing Werner as vanishing after being gone for an hour or two

That's from Brineybeard.

Quote

Being sick isn't my answer for pushing Werner as vanishing.

That's your response, which completely contradicts what you said before. That is to say, you lied.

The "too sick to play mafia" remark was me theorizing why you'd possibly make that mistake as town, and I didn't find my thoughts satisfactory.

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

 Actually, this case by Cagney on Cala is really good, would sheep it.

Also Baroness explained their Cala vote, now I just feel dumb.  Agree that Baroness' exchange w/Captain makes more sense as town.

Captain's followups on his Sully case are good.

(yeah, I'm rereading the end of the day again because I just skimmed it the first time around)

[Olivier]

Quote

 Something tells me you didn't actually quite read through the rest of my posts. 

I get the same feeling every time someone responds to me.

[Olivier]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Kahl said:

Also Baroness explained their Cala vote, now I just feel dumb.  Agree that Baroness' exchange w/Captain makes more sense as town.

Do you think it's town for BvBB to say they don't like the Djimmi lynch but then cheerlead it? I feel like that sort of discussion is really easy to fake as scum so it's NAI in itself, it's easy to argue game theory as any alignment because you don't have to lie

[Olivier]

@Beppi The Clown I want you to explain your Werner read change, you dodging that in rebutting my case is scummy as fuck.

[Kamina]

3 minutes ago, Grim Matchstick said:

That's from Beppi.

That's from Brineybeard.

That's your response, which completely contradicts what you said before. That is to say, you lied.

The "too sick to play mafia" remark was me theorizing why you'd possibly make that mistake as town, and I didn't find my thoughts satisfactory.

I went back to the beginning of the game when that exchange happened, and the "in my defense" comment was not referring to calling out Werner for disappearing. What I was blaming on being sick was not noticing the amount of time that had passed since Werner's post and the one right after his -- which I can see why people misinterpreted, but it's not a lie. And then when I felt less shitty I went back and compared timestamps, because I hadn't thought of doing so earlier.

Either way, it's pretty much making a mountain out of a molehill.

2 minutes ago, Grim Matchstick said:

I get the same feeling every time someone responds to me.

In other words we're both assholes. This was a completely pointless post!

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

7 minutes ago, Grim Matchstick said:

Do you think it's town for BvBB to say they don't like the Djimmi lynch but then cheerlead it? I feel like that sort of discussion is really easy to fake as scum so it's NAI in itself, it's easy to argue game theory as any alignment because you don't have to lie

I don't think the position itself is townie, but moreso how BvBB explained why she felt that way read as town to me.  Game theory is easy to partake in as any alignment; I'm not convinced by BvBB's position of turbolynches are bad, but by BvBB's position of "yeah this could be okay but literally no one including me is scumreading Sally and it doesn't make sense to lynch someone who hasn't been in the public eye for information".

[Kamina]

2 minutes ago, Grim Matchstick said:

@Beppi The Clown I want you to explain your Werner read change, you dodging that in rebutting my case is scummy as fuck.

My Werner read change is because:
1. He came back and explained the thought process on his vote and outright admitted to it being an RVS breaker.
2. I got over being pissed off with him and actually thought about whether I thought his early actions (and latest post) were scummy.

And I decided that no, they were not actually all that scummy.

I'm not dodging anything, I literally just did not think of to respond to that. There's nothing more about it. Stop freaking the fuck out and trying to paint my every single action as scummy. If you're in such a bad mood even now, get off the Internet and take a break. If you piss me off, then I'm not holding back anything I may say.

[Estelle]

38 minutes ago, Grim Matchstick said:

It has nothing to do with Beppi being sick. It has to do with him lying. Only one read has anything to do with Beppi being scum (your slot), the Cala issues exist regardless of Beppi's alignment.

Your dismissal of the BvBB read also totally misrepresents the argument. BvBB had no issues with Djimmi but decided to consolidate on him anyway. Her post would be bad regardless of Djimmi's alignment

That doesn't negate the fact that if Beppi drops dead and flips town, your read on me goes poof.  I've made it a point to be memorable, and not having some sort of opinion on me at this point is beyond weird.

That's what consolidation IS.  Even if you don't agree with a lynch, you vote it anyway so a lynch happens.

1 hour ago, Grim Matchstick said:

Werner Werman

 

I’m also pretty sure I know who this is since it’s historically the only person I guess right in anon games, and like Briney they have a towntell.

Wait a fucking minute. . .

On 2/4/2018 at 9:45 PM, Grim Matchstick said:

I was gonna post this an hour ago but I had a real life interruption so I'm in an even worse mood which is great

I have no idea what you're trying to say Werner, your quotes are all messed up or something. I'm voting you because I think you're not really trying to find scum. Your criticism of me is generic shit that only came up now after like five other people have said it. You being obtuse could be for whatever reason but I'm really annoyed so I'm having trouble concentrating on the game

Don't know if I'll be around tomorrow so whatever

If you knew who I was, then this wouldn't apply at all.

On 2/4/2018 at 7:09 PM, Grim Matchstick said:

Also, this isn't alignment indicative but it's really obnoxious that Werner is so hostile over everything. It makes him unpleasant to play with. 

Or this.

##Unvote
##Vote: Grim Matchstick

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

59 minutes ago, Grim Matchstick said:

Dr. Kahl

https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/80638-cuphead-in-dont-deal-with-the-mafia-night-1/&do=findComment&comment=5127478
Looking at this now, I’m really confused about your given reason for asking for my reads then. What do you mean by "understand where [Grim Matchstick] was coming from"?

Overall, I think Kahl has reasonable activity and their reads are fairly agreeable. They read tonally town to me as well.

My issue with your slot was that it read as you defending...Werner (I think that's who it was) and then ending w/a null read on him.  I wanted to get your other reads so I could understand the context of that better (e.g. if you were scumreading someone casing Werner).

@Werner Werman Too lazy to quote but I think the Djimmi votes that I called out are bad in a scummy way.  If it's just bad w/o scum intent, I'm not going to call it out retroactively because it's not going to accomplish anything other than making feel bad.  I don't think Baroness is scummy anymore, and I do think Sally is scum.

Interested in Grim's response to Werner, and I don't really have strong opinions on anything else.

[Marisa Kirisame]

##vote: cala maria

 

I'm putting my vote back here. will read and post & respond to Werman later 

[Olivier]

dude, I didn't realize who you were until after I reread, plus the posts that were obvious were after I left for the phase. You're the only person who is obsessed with lynching for associations. There's another comment that's obvious to your identity+alignment that I missed the first time around but I'm not telling what it is because I don't want you to try to fake this crap in future games (although you probably won't play again until 2019 considering who you are, so lmao)

you're being super tunnel-y right now and I'm not surprised atm, but it's super annoying because at this point I feel like you've already made up your mind and are just looking for reasons to lynch me

[Olivier]

also I'm taking a break for the night

sorry beppi this game is hard on me, I'll try to reconsider stuff later

[Kamina]

30 minutes ago, Grim Matchstick said:

sorry beppi this game is hard on me, I'll try to reconsider stuff later

I'm sorry as well for being overly aggressive.

[eclipse]

PSA from your friendly mod:

Check which account you're on before posting!  Change the theme on one of the accounts if it makes it easier.  I was lucky enough to be here, but this won't always be the case.  I DO need my beauty sleep!

[C. C.]

yeah @werner it's a stretch to take a post from Matchstick today saying that he knows who you are and therefore thinks you're town based on meta and say that means he should have never voted you.

anyways @Matchstick- Beppi posting while being sick isn't really a good towntell, but on the whole it shows more investment/effort into the game, which I thought was more likely to come from town than scum at that point in the game. It's obviously pretty weak but I didn't see it as a reason to townread him so much as go from 60/40 in favour of voting Beppi to about 60/40 in favour of not voting Beppi.

wrt Sally, I was probably overgeneralizing because yeah, there are both town and scum reasons for doing a certain thing, and sometimes you don't know which of those is more likely, and sometimes you change your mind about how to interpret an action. I guess I just felt that Sally's instances of doing those things felt scummier? It felt that rather than just saying that something could go either way, she would present a case or conclusion for it going one way, and then totally contradict it right afterwards. I think she did something like that in two cases: 

1) Hilda: she says that Hilda not giving reads is NAI, but then says she's inclined to lynch Hilda anyways just to avoid the hassle. Sally said later that this was said out of frustration and she wasn't really being serious, which I guess is possible but not how I read it.

2) Rumor: this one is particularly egregious. the first paragraph is a defence of Rumor (which I agree with), and then right after she says "but maybe I'm wrong".

these (especially the second) are scummy because she's pushing one belief while fencesitting and allowing herself to go either way as required.

I also said at some point last phase that she also flopped on Djimmi which was somewhat wrong I guess. Her Djimmi vote was technically the first time she ever talked about Djimmi, but when voting she said that she'd originally thought Djimmi's posts were good but then she read them again and actually they're not good. So she flopped in terms of her internal opinion, but not wrt her in-thread posts. I dislike that she'd never talked about before and who hadn't made any new posts in the timespan, but I think as scum she doesn't have any specific reason to push Djimmi and defend Rumor, unless Rumor is her buddy (and I don't currently think Rumor is scum). So this doesn't have as much possible scum intent as Cala, because she could have voted Djimmi long before but only chose to do it once it became a wagon. To be clear, this doesn't mean I think Sally is town, just that her Djimmi vote is not as scummy as I thought before.

this post is already long so other opinions in next post

[C. C.]

my earlier PoE list should probably have been separated slightly more wrt the town people because there are two tiers in there

people I am pretty sure are town and will probably never vote for barring roles or them being the only options left: Werner, Beppi, Cagney

I've covered Werner before. Cagney is just town on tone and general play. the last time I remember them being scum was a super long time ago, but although there they played competently I don't remember them giving a townie vibe like they do here.

I agree with Matchstick that Beppi hasn't given a lot of reads, and that's not great play, but his frustration with how people act (eg at Werner for doing stupid RVS things on purpose and at Hilda for not trying) feel genuine. Again, I wish that Beppi's central read over D1 wasn't just a new player, but as scum I've pushed those before and I don't think Beppi's tone reads that way. (side note: Sally's tone does read that way). This also ties in with a general feeling that he's very invested in the game. Also, this just happened, but I'm not reading him as ballsy enough to take refuge in audacity and play the "I'm not getting lynched" card as scum.

people I am leaning town on and might change my mind on down the road but don't want to lynch today: Baroness, Rumor, Hilda

yeah I was scumreading Baroness near the end of last phase but the exchange at the end of the phase, although very frustrating, made me townread her. I think her insistence that turbos sucked and her annoyance at what she felt was me trying to bully her was more likely to come from town. I also doubt scum would have decided it was a good idea to say that I was scum when I'm obviously not getting lynched anytime soon.

I've covered why I think Rumor is town. Although they should definitely start giving scumreads, I don't think them not committing to any scumreads has very much scum intent. With Hilda, I'm stealing someone else's argument (can't remember who) but I agree that newbscum are more likely to try to fit in when pressured as opposed to being stubborn.

people I am null on: Kahl, Wally, Matchstick

none of these people have done anything recently that has seriously bothered me (some stuff with Kahl's very early game but it's not very important anymore). But none of them have done anything that's specifically townie either. I think Kahl and Matchstick are more likely to be town just because they've posted more. I think I've tended to agree with Kahl on more stuff than with Matchstick, but if Kahl is who I think he is, I've traditionally had a hard time reading him so I'm too paranoid to move him out of this tier.

people I think are scum: Sally, Cala

[Estelle]

1 hour ago, Captain Brineybeard said:

yeah @werner it's a stretch to take a post from Matchstick today saying that he knows who you are and therefore thinks you're town based on meta and say that means he should have never voted you.

The case on me was because of "not trying to find scum", which I quoted earlier.  Meta would say that I was, and furthermore, that vote was stuck on me the entire day.  Hence why I have an issue with it.

How did you manage any sort of read on Wally, he's under "not enough info" for me.

4 hours ago, Grim Matchstick said:

you're being super tunnel-y right now and I'm not surprised atm, but it's super annoying because at this point I feel like you've already made up your mind and are just looking for reasons to lynch me

You were on, and I wasn't scumreading Kahl/Beppi at the time.

Since you're heavily into meta, you should know how I feel about whining and self-pity, and why this won't get my vote off of you.

6 hours ago, Beppi The Clown said:

Matchstick: I'm not getting lynched this phase, or any other phase, and I have good reason to believe that.

I don't like this response, because it feels like he's trying to shut down Grim's line of inquiry instead of respond to it.  Don't have an issue with the rest of the response, but the attitude pings me.

5 hours ago, Grim Matchstick said:

@Beppi The Clown I want you to explain your Werner read change, you dodging that in rebutting my case is scummy as fuck.

This is a good point - well, the dodging part, anyway.  It's not enough to convince me to vote for Beppi, but it's something I'll watch for.

I'm tired.  Back to procrastinating!

[C. C.]

but if he didn't realize who you were until after that point, he couldn't have known to apply that meta.

my read on Wally is null lol

[Kamina]

12 minutes ago, Werner Werman said:

I don't like this response, because it feels like he's trying to shut down Grim's line of inquiry instead of respond to it.  Don't have an issue with the rest of the response, but the attitude pings me.

I didn't say that to shut down Matchstick's line of inquiry. I said that because if I laid out all my cards on the table, right now, the only people who'd still want to lynch me are either scum or dumb.

There is a reason why I said what I did -- I'm not going to spell it out for you, but I'm sure you can figure it out if you care enough.

Don't expect to see too much from me until much later today, I'm really tired.