Debate Challenges

[Redwall]

As I've never completed anything after Chapter 5 in Hard mode, I'll defer to your experience regarding the C8 Second Seal in HM, though as I recall, Olwen didn't get it in his three-turn clear of HM C8. Either way, Panne's still worthless as a lead combatant in HM LTC (except for perhaps her join chapter in which she's forced), as you've acknowledged.

As for Lunatic, I'm pretty sure the SS does cost a turn, though at least in Lunatic she may be able to save two-ish turns in C12 and C15 combined.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Redwall

[Chiki]

You don't need the C8 Second Seal.

A lot of units can do what Panne can: Cordelia, Sumia, Lon'qu etc. she's not special.

Also, Wyvern Panne is the only one in HM LTC that allows a 2 turn of C23 with Helswath

Lon'qu.

The guy has Vantage. He's pretty underrated.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Chiki

[Junkhead]

That guy with the Cherche avatar is wondering if that means you forfeit?

I'm pretty sure that's what it means to ragequit...

Debate me.

[Da Bear]

Debate me.

Okay....

[Junkhead]

Panne's worthless as a lead combatant in HM LTC I think (great Pair Up bonuses though); the Second Seal costs a turn. She's not very good in Lunatic LTC since she has so much trouble gaining EXP (and, again, the Second Seal still costs a turn), though she can probably be useful in Chapters 12 and 15.

Uhhh, no. Panne's still one of the best units and pretty great in HM LTC. She's like Haar, with a crapton more Spd and enough Str/Def to go around. Frederick/Stahl also aren't bad options to patch up her Str/Def even further, allowing her to 1RKO the tougher enemies.

[SB.]

You don't need crazy high str/def/spd to orko though.

[Redwall]

Uhh yeah, although she has decent combat parameters after reclassing, Panne doesn't gain EXP quickly enough to keep up if you're playing without sidequests.

[Chiki]

Uhhh, no. Panne's still one of the best units and pretty great in HM LTC. She's like Haar, with a crapton more Spd and enough Str/Def to go around. Frederick/Stahl also aren't bad options to patch up her Str/Def even further, allowing her to 1RKO the tougher enemies.

Uhhh, no. Panne isn't special, and is a pain in the ass to train, period.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Chiki

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Panne would be in a good position if the discussion is based on drafts >_>

Come to think of it, not really

Edited August 16, 2013 by Salesmaster MU

[SB.]

Panne is like early second round.

[Chiki]

Assuming an LTC playthrough needs 2 fliers other than Female Avatar, here are the following characters you can use:

Sully

Sumia

Cordelia

Panne

Lon'qu

Frederick (lol)

Panne is nothing special and has nothing unique going for her. Why do you guys like Panne so much? Is it because she's a bunny?

Edited August 16, 2013 by Chiki

[Elieson]

Could it be that Wyvern Rider panne has superior growths over Sully in everything bar Res and lolllluk, has superior growths over Sumia in everything also bar mag, res and Luk (and only -5% Spd), superior growths over Lon'qu in everything bar mag, Luk and res (see a pattern here?), and superior growths over Cordelia in everything bar mag, Luk and res?

Her HP, Str, def and skill growths outshine them all and aside from Sumia (by 5%), she beats all the others in speed too. With the insane rate of growth this game gives you via enemy phase, I really don't see her as significantly outclassed.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Elieson

[XeKr]

Are you all sure non-Panne/Veteran!units can do the lategame reliably after blitzing the midgame? There are forged bows/Rexcaliburs and such.

Plus, the comparison is against Frederick, who isn't that great in the optimal HM clears either (best pair up doe?).

I still tend to agree; HM (typically) doesn't warrant overkill stats since basically 90% of the cast can reach tanky, onerounding steamroller status quite quickly through Pair Up/Tonics. She competes against those with better Supports, better Weapon Ranks, and do not require a SS. Unless, again, someone can show her stat lead actually matters.

I could see a debate (not me though. >_>)

Of course, the thing is that no paralogues makes everyone completely unviable except the Avatar.

Well, when a character has the best availability (all of the game), by far gets the best stats in every way (Veteran), by far gets skills/promo gains fastest (Veteran), access to best mobility (flight, Galeforce/Deliverer), and is in a game that encourages low-manning (Pair Up, abundance of bosskills, buyable Rescue)....yeah...

Avatar (more specifically Veteran) obsoletes the cast. No paralogues doesn't cause the problem, per-say, though it does somewhat exacerbate it because exp is even scarcer and therefore more valuable.

[Chiki]

Could it be that panne has superior growths over Sully in everything bar Res and lolllluk, has superior growths over Sumia in everything also bar mag, res and Luk (and only -5% Spd), superior growths over Lon'qu in everything bar mag, Luk and res (see a pattern here?), and superior growths over Cordelia in everything bar mag, Luk and res?

Her HP, Str, def and skill growths outshine them all and aside from Sumia (by 5%), she beats all the others too. With the insane rate of growth this game gives you via enemy phase, I really don't see her as significantly outclassed.

Panne has 10% str and 15% def over Lon'qu. Big deal. HM isn't so hard that you need extremely high stats. Neither have much of a chance to level up for Panne's growth advantages to be apparent after Chapter 15. Since this is a debate on HM LTC, Panne becomes completely useless after 15, and Panne will only level up around 20 times in total throughout the whole playthrough most likely. It'll be one or two strength and defense points over Lon'qu. Like I said, big deal.

Oh yeah, Lon'qu has Vantage, which everyone is just conveniently ignoring. It actually adds to Lon'qu's durability, since it allows him to finish off weaker enemies in one hit when he's at half health. In practice, Lon'qu will probably be tougher to kill than Panne because of this.

On the other hand, both Sumia and Cordelia have access to Rally Movement as Dark Fliers, which is extremely important for trimming turns. Panne is outclassed.

[Elieson]

You're assuming that Lon'qu is going to OHKOS everything that comes at him when he's in Vantage range, which is not accurate, Because if he is reclassed to WR, he is axe locked in Axe land and getting hit by the counter strike after his Vantage hit against things like Barbarians and WRs that aren't likely to be smashed by Lon'qu via EP unless he's loaded to the brim with so much support that it potentially gimps other units. Unless Lon'qu is really that tanky with what, Knight!Tharja support and Def tonics or something that being hit by same type weaponry won't make a difference even in Vantage mode.

And of course Sully has discipline to get her to Hand Axes and Hammers faster for Late-Plegia/Valm, but that's ok. Panne still slaughters her in growths that matter anyway

I acknowledge that Sumia and Cordelia are more valuable in the long run for turn shaving, but I'm pretty sure I originally declared debate material of Fred Vs Panne, not Lon'qu and the Pegasisters Vs Panne. You just asked why ppl like Panne as much as they do, and I gave a potential reason. Am I wrong for pointing out her generally superior stat growths as "unique to her"?

[Chiki]

You're assuming that Lon'qu is going to OHKOS everything that comes at him when he's in Vantage range, which is not accurate

It actually adds to Lon'qu's durability, since it allows him to finish off weaker enemies in one hit

There's a reason I used that verb.

And of course Sully has discipline to get her to Hand Axes and Hammers faster for Late-Plegia/Valm, but that's ok. Panne still slaughters her in growths that matter anyway

I'm not sure what you mean by "slaughter," but if it's "slightly outclasses," then sure. Panne has 10% str, 15% speed and 5% def, which isn't going to make a meaningful difference.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Chiki

[Elieson]

You're casually ignoring the 20 %Hp growth that Panne has over Sully. That's a significant durability lead, when your base is 8 over sully's base, and only 4 lvls higher.

And what makes you so comfortable that the AI is gonna send weaker enemies towards lon'Qu and the ones that are around full HP to other units?

Edit:

Sully is stuck in Cavalier grinding out her lower growths vs panne who starts at a higher level with higher growths (and about equal stats before the Beast stone is accounted for) and a Second Seal nets her a significant stat change over Sully recieving a seal.

Skill-wise, Panne isn't winning any contests until Deliverer, but over stats, it's an exponential win.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Elieson

[Chiki]

You're casually ignoring the 20 %Hp growth that Panne has over Sully. That's a significant durability lead, when your base is 8 over sully's base, and only 4 lvls higher.

Who cares about a 20% HP growth? This is HM. Neither Sully nor Panne are having any durability issues. If you can prove to me your claim that Panne's durability matters, then I'll believe you, but I see no reason to.

And what makes you so comfortable that the AI is gonna send weaker enemies towards lon'Qu and the ones that are around full HP to other units?

Uh, the AI likes to attack units at below half health like Lon'qu. You just need to use your brain and position Lon'qu where those enemies can attack him.

Skill-wise, Panne isn't winning any contests until Deliverer, but over stats, it's an exponential win.

Both are useless after Chapter 15, so Deliverer is worthless.

Sully completely kicks Panne's ass due to a huge availability lead of 5 chapters. She has a lot of time to be babied, unlike Panne.

[Elieson]

Sully's gonna have that much of a lead in Frederick emblem that it'd nullify any gain brought in from panne?

[Chiki]

Sully's gonna have that much of a lead in Frederick emblem that it'd nullify any gain brought in from panne?

Just because you use Frederick a lot doesn't mean the best strategies for HM LTC playthroughs use Frederick, In fact they barely even use him.

My Frederick in my HM LTC playthrough had 9 kills.

[Elieson]

Just because you use Frederick a lot doesn't mean the best strategies for HM LTC playthroughs use Frederick, In fact they barely even use him.

My Frederick in my HM LTC playthrough had 9 kills.

FTR I minimize my Frederick use because ewww Jeigan syndrome I just don't like his offensive growths, but you avoided my question.

And hell, is Draft Setting Panne-Vs-Frederick going to be a thing? I don't really feel like arguing Sully Vs Panne

Edited August 16, 2013 by Elieson

[Chiki]

FTR I minimize my Frederick use because ewww Jeigan syndrome I just don't like his offensive growths, but you avoided my question.

And hell, is Draft Setting Panne-Vs-Frederick going to be a thing? I don't really feel like arguing Sully Vs Panne

Erm, since this isn't Frederick Emblem, then yes, Sully is going to have a nice lead.

[General Horace]

Fred contributes a ton early on without his combat anyway since he's the only +1 move pair up until Gaius

as for Fred vs. Panne in draft setting Fred crushes her handily, he's free for a reason

[eclipse]

Uh, isn't this the place where people post to find a debate challenge, rather than holding the debate itself?

[commonguard]

Ryan (Me) vs. Luke (You) (FE12)

Efficient play of H3 with Rainbow Potion, Maturity Drop, and Bond Drop.

No Everybody's Situation or Wifi-Shops allowed.

Base arena and rigging in base arena is acceptable for up to 3 total stats of your choosing (it starts to get hard to win after three battles).

You can choose who opens, but I'm defending Ryan. (Ironic, considering I've made a number of posts arguing Ryan sucks.)

I will also say by "Efficient play" I mean a compromise between low turn counts and real time. In my definition of efficient, it is acceptable to rig ONE crit, if 1) the weapon has innate crit chance OR the total crit chance is above 25% and 2) a save point is used to force it. It is also acceptable to force a difficult sequence involving multiple sub 60 displayed hit rates. Growth rigging is also allowed during the prologue as long as the the rigging does not result in characters being more than 1 full point above their averages for any clutch stat (HP, STR, SPD, DEF).

I am willing to adapt or complete drop my definition of "Efficient play if that's what it will take for someone to debate me. That's right, I have absolutely no conviction.

Debate me.