Tier 4 Skills

[Arcphoenix]

11 minutes ago, XRay said:

I do not see how that makes Death Blow 3 builds obsolete. If anything, Death Blow 4 only enhances those builds. The game even gives you one Death Blow 4 for free.

Arena scoring and competitiveness. Also just one Celica won't cover the amount of Death blow kits a person might have, not to mention the possibility another unit was chosen or a player might want to keep their first Celica.

 

Granted, I have to admit I may be just a bit jumping to conclusions about the availability of it given it just had its debut. I really hope I am and that it's not just a "whale skill"

Edited August 22, 2018 by Arcphoenix

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Arcphoenix said:

Arena scoring

One kill made by a bonus unit per round covers the average difference made by 600 SP worth of skills per round.

[Johann]

Yeah somehow I don't think there's a mass exodus of Kleins from people's barracks

[Lewyn]

There are a lot of really poor PRF weapons that haven't dated well, like Tana's.  DC weapons should not get a refine.  Tons of characters sacrifice the super competitive A slot which can host breath skills, sparrow skills, etc for distant counter skill.  Having it built into its weapon is a giant boon.  They should be the last or never be considered for refine.  Also DC units and the skill itself has completely warped the meta already.  

On topic, this is going to be a pain for inheritance.  As someone already said, they should up inheritable skills to 4.  Secondly as has already been suggested there should be a skill refinery or something where one could spend some sort of in game resource to get the level 4 version of Death blow or other lv 4 skills they release in the future.  Thirdly powerful skills like dual stance, dual blow, breaths, fighter, hone/fortify emblem should definitely not get level 4 versions.  The other mono blows, like darting/sturdy/warding those can get it.  Mono stances also.  Defiant skills should get level 4 version that gives +10 to stat.  Fortress skills should get a lv 4 version that gives you +7 def or res or maybe more.  Guard should work at 50% health or higher.  

Essentially they should use level 4 to make less competitive skills competitive again (or for the first time ever).  NOT to make the best skills even more game breaking.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

DC weapons should not get a refine.  Tons of characters sacrifice the super competitive A slot which can host breath skills, sparrow skills, etc for distant counter skill.  Having it built into its weapon is a giant boon.  They should be the last or never be considered for refine.  Also DC units and the skill itself has completely warped the meta already.

Distant Counter on a weapon is really only particularly helpful when players are unable to pull enough copies of Hector to supply Distant Counter to their units otherwise.

If you happen to have a spare copy of Hector, though, nearly every unit in the game with access to a Slaying weapon would prefer to run a Slaying weapon and Distant Counter instead of a Distant Counter weapon and a different A skill when optimizing for performance.

Wrath builds can't use Steady Breath or Warding Breath in place of a Slaying weapon because it takes two turns to charge up a 2-charge Special using Wrath's battery. Furthermore, the 5 HP gained from the refine on a Slaying weapon boosts one-hit survivability more than it hurts the ability to get Wrath activated after the first hit.

Slow armors running Bold Fighter and Quick Riposte are capable of activating Ignis on the second counterattack regardless of if they are running a Slaying weapon or Steady/Warding Breath, but are incapable of activating Ignis on the second attack when initiating if not running a Slaying weapon. Hardin, in fact, benefits more from running a Slaying Lance than Gradivus because of this.

 

tl;dr: Distant Counter on a weapon is great on a budget, but outclassed when going for maximum performance (or maximum douche on a defense team).

 

[Zora]

On 21.08.2018 at 5:49 AM, Jingle Jangle said:

With cyl 2 there is the introduction of Tier 4 skills with Celica's death blow 4. I feel that will be unable to be passed down to others. And may set a trend of already strong skills even more broken. Bold Fighter 4, or Wrath 4 anyone? Balance wise I find it difficult to pull it off well. What do you think?

I think its inevitable that more skills will receive upgrades. IMO it keeps things fresh, opens new possibilites, gives incentives for people to pull and further work on their units. 

[Garlyle]

Desperation 4 anyone?

[Diovani Bressan]

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Desperation 4 anyone?

I don't believe we will have skills like Vantage 4 or Desperation 4. The difference between each version of Vantage and Desperation is 25% of HP (HP ≤ 25% at Lv1, HP ≤ 50% at Lv2 and HP ≤ 75% at Lv3). Vantage/Desperation at Lv 4 would be HP ≤ 100%, which is all the time. It would break the game. Tier 4 skills are to increase that skill utility but don't make it a game breaker.

Skills that I believe can receive a Tier 4 version: single Blow skills, single Stance skills, Defiant skills, Boost skills, Seals skills, Threaten skills(*), single Spur skills.

* Zephiel already has Threaten Def 4 on his refined weapon.

Skills that "maybe" can receive a Tier 4 Version: normal Fortify/Hone skills, Breath of Life, Savage Blow .

[Icelerate]

Tier 4 skills aren't inherently a bad idea but death blow didn't need an upgrade when there are many other skills that could use it. If these tier 4 skills are locked to rare 5* units, that would be utterly disappointing because I'd rather upgrade my old skills as opposed to sacrifice a 5* so that a power crept unit can become slightly better than before but still worse than the new 5* unit I just sacrificed. 

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I don't believe we will have skills like Vantage 4 or Desperation 4. The difference between each version of Vantage and Desperation is 25% of HP (HP ≤ 25% at Lv1, HP ≤ 50% at Lv2 and HP ≤ 75% at Lv3). Vantage/Desperation at Lv 4 would be HP ≤ 100%, which is all the time. It would break the game. Tier 4 skills are to increase that skill utility but don't make it a game breaker.

Skills that I believe can receive a Tier 4 version: single Blow skills, single Stance skills, Defiant skills, Boost skills, Seals skills, Threaten skills(*), single Spur skills.

* Zephiel already has Threaten Def 4 on his refined weapon.

Skills that "maybe" can receive a Tier 4 Version: normal Fortify/Hone skills, Breath of Life, Savage Blow .

Brash Assault 4 definitly needs to happen and maybe they also give out Quick riposte 4

Also wind and watersweep need a tier 4

and for gods sake guard 4.

Brash Assault, Guard and Quick riposte need to match HP wise the condition of the fighter skills (but without the charge gain) so Infantry units can stand somewhat toe on toe with armored units.

[Diovani Bressan]

1 hour ago, Hilda said:

Brash Assault 4 definitly needs to happen and maybe they also give out Quick riposte 4

Also wind and watersweep need a tier 4

and for gods sake guard 4.

Brash Assault, Guard and Quick riposte need to match HP wise the condition of the fighter skills (but without the charge gain) so Infantry units can stand somewhat toe on toe with armored units.

Brash Assault 4: "If unit initiates combat against a foe that can counter and unit's HP ≤ 75%, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack." (Ly's refinement in B-skill form)

Quick Riposte 4: "If unit's HP ≥ 50% and foe initiates combat, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack." (Roy's refinement in B-Skill form)

Guard 4: "At start of combat, if unit's HP ≥ 70%, inflicts Special cooldown charge -1 on foe per attack. (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.) " (Guard 3 works with HP ≥ 80%. From 80% to 50% is too much).

I don't know what wind/water sweep 4 can be. Tier 3 version is: "If unit initiates combat, unit cannot make a follow-up attack. If unit's Spd ≥ foe's Spd and foe uses sword, lance, axe, bow, or dagger (for windsweep), or magic, staff, or dragonstone (for watersweep), foe cannot counterattack." The Lv 4 change coulg be "if unit's Spd ≥ foe's Spd-2" or maybe exclude the "If unit initiates combat, unit cannot make a follow-up attack." part.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Diovani Bressan

[Ice Dragon]

21 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

(Guard 3 works with HP ≥ 80%. From 80% to 50% is too much).

Not sure why you're adhering to this for Guard, but not for the other skills. Brash Assault, Quick Riposte, and Guard all have their HP thresholds move by 10% per tier, so it would only be logical for Brash Assault 4 to be 60% and lower, Quick Riposte 4 to be 60% and higher, and Guard 4 to be 70% and higher.

And personally, I don't think any of those would be necessary or really even worth sacrificing a 5-star exclusive character for, unlike Death Blow 4, which has consistent results.

[Diovani Bressan]

10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Not sure why you're adhering to this for Guard, but not for the other skills. Brash Assault, Quick Riposte, and Guard all have their HP thresholds move by 10% per tier, so it would only be logical for Brash Assault 4 to be 60% and lower, Quick Riposte 4 to be 60% and higher, and Guard 4 to be 70% and higher.

And personally, I don't think any of those would be necessary or really even worth sacrificing a 5-star exclusive character for, unlike Death Blow 4, which has consistent results.

That's true. I also don't think this type of skills are worth sacrificing a 5-stars unit. For Death Blow 4, my Lilina would enjoy to have it...

The question is: if we, somehow, get QR 4 skill or Brash Assault 4 skill, we will also get the tier 4 sacred seals?

 

[Othin]

I think Brash Assault 4 with 75% and QR4 with 50% are both plenty likely, considering the precedent of those takes on their effects appearing. Them getting 60% would just seem silly, so I don't expect that at all. Not sure what Guard would be, though, if we even get a Guard 4 at all.

[Lewyn]

11 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Distant Counter on a weapon is really only particularly helpful when players are unable to pull enough copies of Hector to supply Distant Counter to their units otherwise.

If you happen to have a spare copy of Hector, though, nearly every unit in the game with access to a Slaying weapon would prefer to run a Slaying weapon and Distant Counter instead of a Distant Counter weapon and a different A skill when optimizing for performance.

Wrath builds can't use Steady Breath or Warding Breath in place of a Slaying weapon because it takes two turns to charge up a 2-charge Special using Wrath's battery. Furthermore, the 5 HP gained from the refine on a Slaying weapon boosts one-hit survivability more than it hurts the ability to get Wrath activated after the first hit.

Slow armors running Bold Fighter and Quick Riposte are capable of activating Ignis on the second counterattack regardless of if they are running a Slaying weapon or Steady/Warding Breath, but are incapable of activating Ignis on the second attack when initiating if not running a Slaying weapon. Hardin, in fact, benefits more from running a Slaying Lance than Gradivus because of this.

 

tl;dr: Distant Counter on a weapon is great on a budget, but outclassed when going for maximum performance (or maximum douche on a defense team).

 

Breath skills aren't any more budget than distant counter and most units with DC weapon optimal set is their DC weapon with breath in the A slot.

Dragons without a PRF run lightning breath+ with breath cause it is that good. Hardin warding breath, Gradivus, QR seal. Zelgius warding or steady, Alondite, QR seal. Of course both with Bold fighter B slot. I get that there is something broken stuff to be done with slaying weapons on player phase, but DC weapon builds have their benefits too.  Like not having to be doubled to proc ignis enemy phase.

Never seen a L!ike without Ragnell either.

On top of that nearly every unit with a DC weapon is top tier or close to it. No need to let them break the game further with a refine. Refines should be for mediocre or poor units not dominant ones. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Lewyn

[Ice Dragon]

19 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Breath skills aren't any more budget than distant counter and most units with DC weapon optimal set is their DC weapon with breath in the A slot.

If you keep the weapon, yes, Steady Breath or Warding Breath is typically optimal. But the absolute optimal build for most units with a Distant Counter weapon does not use their Distant Counter weapon in the first place.

Pretty much every budget build uses Fury, which is "good enough".

 

21 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Dragons without a PRF run lightning breath+ with breath cause it is that good.

If there were a breath weapon with a Slaying effect, Lightning Breath would immediately stop being optimal. The only reason Lightning Breath is good is because there is no breath weapon with a Slaying effect.

 

22 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Hardin warding breath, Gradivus, QR seal.

Hardin's optimal build for mixed-phase performance is

Hardin [+Atk, -Spd] (Slaying Lance+ [Def], Ignis, Distant Counter, Bold Fighter 3, Quick Riposte 3).

Gradivus with Steady Breath or Warding Breath give him a few more enemy-phase wins against slow enemies that can't double him, but loses out on an overwhelming number of player-phase wins compared to Slaying Lance.

 

29 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

I get that there is something broken stuff to be done with slaying weapons on player phase, but DC weapon builds have their benefits too.

They have their benefits, but they aren't optimal.

 

30 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Never seen a L!ike without Ragnell either.

Because Ragnell, like most other Distant Counter weapons, is "good enough".

 

31 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

On top of that nearly every unit with a DC weapon is top tier or close to it.

Absolutely no thanks to their weapon, though. All of the armors with Distant Counter weapons are S-tier (ignoring pluses and minuses) because Bold Fighter and Vengeful Fighter are that good.

Legendary Ryoma is S-tier because of his Firesweep Sword and Slaying Edge builds (as he is the only flying unit with access to a Wrath-like B-slot skill), not because of his Raijinto.

Regular Ryoma, both Ikes, Fjorm, and Dorcas are all mid-tier. Xander and Camus are both low-tier.

 

Distant Counter weapons have the problem that they have a very high floor, but a lower ceiling. They are easy to use and easy to build for because they have one of the best skills in the game built in, but they fall off at the top because the skill they have built in, Distant Counter, is available on another skill slot (Slaying weapon effect is not available elsewhere and Wo Dao effect stacks with Wrath, giving a reason to run both simultaneously).

[Hilda]

3 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Brash Assault 4: "If unit initiates combat against a foe that can counter and unit's HP ≤ 75%, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack." (Ly's refinement in B-skill form)

Quick Riposte 4: "If unit's HP ≥ 50% and foe initiates combat, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack." (Roy's refinement in B-Skill form)

Guard 4: "At start of combat, if unit's HP ≥ 70%, inflicts Special cooldown charge -1 on foe per attack. (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.) " (Guard 3 works with HP ≥ 80%. From 80% to 50% is too much).

I don't know what wind/water sweep 4 can be. Tier 3 version is: "If unit initiates combat, unit cannot make a follow-up attack. If unit's Spd ≥ foe's Spd and foe uses sword, lance, axe, bow, or dagger (for windsweep), or magic, staff, or dragonstone (for watersweep), foe cannot counterattack." The Lv 4 change coulg be "if unit's Spd ≥ foe's Spd-2" or maybe exclude the "If unit initiates combat, unit cannot make a follow-up attack." part.

I think the Tier 4 for wind and water sweep could be that the unit CAN actually do a follow up attack

or the SPD check is removed.

I would opt for the SPD check removed, because it gives slow units an incentiv to actually run Wind or Watersweep to apply a debuff or damage a foe safely. The one with the added follow up attack opens another can for halfbaked Firesweeps on everyone, which in the first place is imho dumb (ecxept on dagger users).

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Hilda said:

or the SPD check is removed.

No. That's way too powerful for slow Brave weapon users.

[Hilda]

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Not sure why you're adhering to this for Guard, but not for the other skills. Brash Assault, Quick Riposte, and Guard all have their HP thresholds move by 10% per tier, so it would only be logical for Brash Assault 4 to be 60% and lower, Quick Riposte 4 to be 60% and higher, and Guard 4 to be 70% and higher.

And personally, I don't think any of those would be necessary or really even worth sacrificing a 5-star exclusive character for, unlike Death Blow 4, which has consistent results.

The point is to match actually Bold Vengefull and Special fighter with Brash Assault, Quick Riposte and Guard. The playing field should be leveled somewhat, atm Infantry and everone that is not an armored unit is kinda sol.

Imho if we want to be fair then Brash assault should work at 100% like Bold fighter. This gives Slow non Armored units almost the same benefits as Armored units but without any charge. This would also make slow physical bulky mages usable to a degree against Distant Counter users. I really dont think that Armored units should be the only class that can ignore speed when it comes to Playerphase initiaten. Lets level the playing field to a degree.

QR should like Vengefull fighter have a threshold of 50%

and Guard should have a threshold of 50% too, this one would actually counter the meta pretty hard.

I think that the changes to QR and Brash Assault particularly would bring back madiocre units from the grave, that were previously dead. (Welp ecxept that Brash assault would brake Reinhardt)

[Hilda]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

No. That's way too powerful for slow Brave weapon users.

Probably (Reinhardt and co), but as it stands those skills are pretty niche. Unless as suggested you leave the SPD check on and allow for a follow up attack. Which would turn them in a halfway firesweep weapon. This could be bad or a blessing because you actually need to run then a mage/ranged check on your Team but it leaves all the slow mages in the dust can and transforms every fast ranged unit into Sacaes blessing Lyn. Hmmm I think neither works well and would just break the game, there needs to be another solution, because unlike Firesweep weapons, wind/watersweep allow for counters on enemyphase.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Hilda said:

Probably (Reinhardt and co), but as it stands those skills are pretty niche. Unless as suggested you leave the SPD check on and allow for a follow up attack. Which would turn them in a halfway firesweep weapon. This could be bad or a blessing because you actually need to run then a mage/ranged check on your Team but it leaves all the slow mages in the dust can and transforms every fast ranged unit into Sacaes blessing Lyn. Hmmm I think neither works well and would just break the game, there needs to be another solution, because unlike Firesweep weapons, wind/watersweep allow for counters on enemyphase.

I'm suggesting that Windsweep and Watersweep simply don't need a fourth tier. Any upgrade from the existing third tier is either big enough to break the skill completely or not big enough of a change to justify the upgrade at its price tag.

I don't think there is a problem with the existence of niche skills.

[Othin]

30 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm suggesting that Windsweep and Watersweep simply don't need a fourth tier. Any upgrade from the existing third tier is either big enough to break the skill completely or not big enough of a change to justify the upgrade at its price tag.

I don't think there is a problem with the existence of niche skills.

Especially since a number of skills just wouldn't make sense with a fourth tier, like Wrathful Staff and Bold Fighter.

[Ae†her]

I kind of understand where Death Blow 4 comes from because if you look at the Brazen skills they give two stats each +7 permanently while under 80% HP, but a regular Blow Skill will give 1 less of that just on Player Phase. Although it's completely unnecessary as Death Blow 3 is already the to go skills for certain units that are PP oriented (and it works just fine), the number feels justified. The only problem with this is that it open the room for any skill to be a level 4 Skill in the future, which counteracts the point of adding a Lvl 4 Blow Skill. It's kind of like how they made trainee units increased BST, and instead it just made every other new unit have increased BST. 

So imo Death Blow 4 is a pretty bad implementation, but I guess they went with this to make Brave Celica stand out from the rest, so that they could check two boxes with one implementation rather than just making Death Blow 3 and other blow skills +8. Who knows, maybe IS won't make just any skill a lvl 4 skill in the future, maybe it'll just be the basic blow skills and a few other weaker skills. 

I also hate the fact they went with Y E L L O W for the 4th lvl skill. Like it's just hideous, it should've been platinum, ruby, diamond or any other non basic color.

[D-I-S-C-O]

I think there are overall different issues in regards to 4th tier abilities. Obviously there would need to be other skills with fourth tiers because having one skill get that high makes the whole concept mute and wasted. Another issue (for me personally) is just that even if a skill were to get a fourth tier, it probably wouldn't be that useful. Nobody would have it because it is likely locked behind a five star unit, and some other abilities are just better. BA 4 would be pretty useless considering that most people prefer desperation or QP, and while guard is great, both of the aforementioned abilities are pretty much outclassed by "Armor Privileged" skills. Brash Assault is shut down by Bold Fighter, Vengeful Fighter for QP, and now Special Fighter for Guard.

 

I know that the other tier fours for BA, guard, and QP can be given to other move types, but people are more inclined to use armor cause it raises score. Maybe dragons could use them, but they have speed problems (outside of Summer Young Tiki) and are mostly looking for enemy phase. But armor still does that (IMO) better.

Edited August 22, 2018 by D-I-S-C-O

[XRay]

33 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

It's kind of like how they made trainee units increased BST, and instead it just made every other new unit have increased BST. 

The trainee BST formula is different from the gen II BST formula, and their purpose and implementation are different. Trainee BST was used as a reference to the series and it has been in the game since launch. Gen II BST was implemented way after launch, and it is the new standardized BST sytem to balance the game due to melee units being crap.