Fire Emblem Three Houses Unit Tier Lists

[Dark Holy Elf]

Dex as usual does so little that you can basically ignore it. Each point of Dex is +1 hit and +0.5 crit with weapons, +0.5 hit and +0.5 crit with magic, and no effect whatsoever on Gambits. Luck as usual is mainly useful for critical avoid, but has a small effect on crit as well, though none on avoid unlike most games in the series.

Charm is +5 hit and +5 avo with gambits (to a maximum/minimum of 80/20 hit, hence why you've probably seen those numbers a lot), along with a small effect on gambit damage. So a serious tank will be more effective with high charm as well. Low-charm ones work but you'll want to protect them from enemies with gambits.

[timon]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Who knows - in chapter 5, Gilbert routinely faced like 20% hit rates from enemy gambits. Anyway, that's another thing that makes me think dodgetanking ain't all it's cracked up to be - if you're unlucky enough to get tagged by an enemy gambit, not only do you get frozen in place, but you lose stats, meaning other enemy attacks are more accurate and more damaging against you.

I'm just gonna go ahead and say it, you have an irrational fear of bad luck. And I say it because I've read you going on about how impossible it is to dodge tank, how impossible it is to use archers at more than 2 range or how difficult it is to hit stuff with an axe.

Honestly, this is an RNG game, and you have Divine Pulse (a lot of it, too), if you have 80% hitrate it's basically 100%, if your enemy has 20% on you he's going to miss. Stop worrying so much about meaningless percentages, when you start to get into 60 territory you can start worrying about not hitting, when the enemy starts going into 50 territory then worry about getting hit. But anything above or below that just doesn't have an impact unless you're terribly unlucky.

And even then, you have like 10 Divine Pulses by chapter 11.

[ra2bk]

1 hour ago, timon said:

I'm just gonna go ahead and say it, you have an irrational fear of bad luck. And I say it because I've read you going on about how impossible it is to dodge tank, how impossible it is to use archers at more than 2 range or how difficult it is to hit stuff with an axe.

Honestly, this is an RNG game, and you have Divine Pulse (a lot of it, too), if you have 80% hitrate it's basically 100%, if your enemy has 20% on you he's going to miss. Stop worrying so much about meaningless percentages, when you start to get into 60 territory you can start worrying about not hitting, when the enemy starts going into 50 territory then worry about getting hit. But anything above or below that just doesn't have an impact unless you're terribly unlucky.

And even then, you have like 10 Divine Pulses by chapter 11.

He just thinks nothing works and everything takes too much investment. But he hasn't really played the game yet. 

What he doesn't realize is that this game has HUGE customization to it, and it's pretty much all plannable. More than pretty much any game in the series, you can tailor units to your specifications and min/max through boosts from:

Class abilities

Personal abilities

Skill abilities

Crests

Rings

Weapons

Weapon forges

Combat art bonuses

Class stat bonuses

Class min stat boosts

Grown / found attribute boost items

Battalion stats

Monthly meal cooks

Support bonuses

And probably more that I'm forgetting. Your enemies have access to much less of these things, and most are not optimized. We'll see if Lunatic takes more advantage, but right now the player has a massive resource and option advantage, which is why people say this game is easy. And it is. But that means that most things you want to make work, you can. Is it a lot of investment? For most things, not really. You can buy or grow a lot of the necessary things in shops eventually and things like rings drop plentifully (i had a couple of most of each type of ring in the end). Getting to a certain class gives you certain skill abilities you earn on the way, along with 2 different kinds of stat boosts. 4 birds with one stone. Growing in the garden boosts your professor rank while also giving you food to cook with, gifts to recruit, and stat boosting items. 4 birds with 1 stone. And because the game is fairly easy, it's not hard to train units. Along with the min class stats meaning characters can't get THAT rng screwed, there's not a lot of downsides to just making your units whatever you want them to be. 

If your definition of high investment is that you need to equip a certain battalion and equip a certain ring and get a certain class ability and get a certain weapon skill ability and certain weapon. Okay sure, it might take high investment to make a dodgetank or high range archer or quick riposte tank work, but those things are just basic gameplay. If you're not equipping those things or instructing towards a certain class for all your units, are you really even playing the game?

Edited August 17, 2019 by ra2bk

[Shadow Mir]

5 minutes ago, ra2bk said:

He just thinks nothing works and everything takes too much investment. But he hasn't really played the game yet. 

 What he doesn't realize is that this game has HUGE customization to it, and it's pretty much all plannable. More than pretty much any game in the series, you can tailor units to your specifications and min/max through boosts from:

Class abilities

Personal abilities

Skill abilities

Crests

Rings

Weapons

Weapon forges

Combat arts

Class stat bonuses

Class min stat boosts

Grown / found attribute boost items

Battalion stats

Monthly meal cooks

Support bonuses

And probably more that I'm forgetting. Your enemies have access to much less of these things, and most are not optimized. We'll see if Lunatic takes more advantage, but right now the player has a massive resource and option advantage, which is why people say this game is easy. And it is. But that means that most things you want to make work, you can. Is it a lot of investment? For most things, not really. You can buy or grow a lot of the necessary things in shops eventually and things like rings drop plentifully (i had a couple of most of each type of ring in the end). Getting to a certain class gives you certain skill abilities you earn on the way, along with 2 different kinds of stat boosts. 4 birds with one stone. Growing in the garden boosts your professor rank while also giving you food to cook with, gifts to recruit, and stat boosting items. 4 birds with 1 stone. And because the game is fairly easy, it's not hard to train units. Along with the min class stats meaning characters can't get THAT rng screwed, there's not a lot of downsides to just making your units whatever you want them to be. 

If your definition of high investment is that you need to equip a certain battalion and equip a certain ring and get a certain class ability and get a certain weapon skill ability and certain weapon. Okay sure, it might take high investment to make a dodgetank or high range archer or quick riposte tank work, but those things are just basic gameplay. If you're not equipping those things or instructing towards a certain class for all your units, are you really even playing the game?

I wuld prefer you not make half-assed - and obviously wrong - assumptions about someone else, thank you very much.

[ra2bk]

38 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I wuld prefer you not make half-assed - and obviously wrong - assumptions about someone else, thank you very much.

You made comments using the present tense that said you were in the early going on the same day you were arguing dodge tanks and deep Deadeye weren't ever viable in the game. In both cases, people pointed to actual game use and/or gave statistics from in-game and you referred to incorrect theory or noted how the formulas were worse than in other games in the series without considering the validity in this game's unique environment. In both cases you continued the same argument over several more posts after evidence (anecdotal or screen shot) was brought forth to prove you wrong. In this instance, a week later after further anecdotal evidence was shared to oppose your viewpoint, you continued the argument without any supporting in-game evidence or even anything anecdotal. You just compared the game's formula to a different game again.

I respect the fact that you seem to know the other games in the series very well, but when someone tells you something works because they have done it in this one, repeatedly arguing that it doesn't with no supporting evidence isn't a very effective strategy and is quite annoying.

Once your standard of "it's impossible" is shattered, your next main argument against things seems to be that it takes a lot of investment. Your main character's role in this game is literally a teacher. All you are doing is investing in characters. It's like 50% of the game. Try it, it's fun.

Edited August 17, 2019 by ra2bk

[TrueNoble]

Hiii, ❤️ I'm currently loving Three Houses, and would just like to share some fun discoveries about hidden unit strengths I've made so far: (I try to make all my babies exceptional in some way, after all)

Ingrid scales ridiculously well as a front line unit, as she can easily attain 0% hit from most regular enemies just by making use of Advanced Alert Stance, Evasion Ring, innate Peg + Falco Knight evasion, and her high base speed growth to fly out in advance of your main army to be engaged upon by a group of enemies, counter attack from up to 1-3 range with weapon upgrades, and allow the rest of your unit to swoop in on the survivors. Note, this is before even taking terrain or support bonuses with someone like Dark Knight Sylvain into account. Basically, she starts out as merely a decent unit and by the end without any particular favoritism became just this...literally unkillable monster. This was normal mode, however, but I'm curious to try it again when I run Blue Lions again on Hard. If anything, there's another ability I didn't use that grants bonus evasion when you're below a certain HP threshold I could add to the mix if it's needed, but we shall see.

Ignatz, on the other hand, whom as far I've seen isn't looked upon favorably by many players (albeit for understandable reasons), I find has a subtle strength I'm just now experimenting with in my first Golden Deer run. That is, because his trait gives him extra hit, one need not take prowess abilities for the sake of giving him reliable attack accuracy. For best use of this trait, I run him as an assassin as the lowkey broken Assassin trait Stealth means he doesn't have to worry about having lower evasion and crit evasion either (as you may know, Stealth makes it so that if enemies can target any other of your ally units in their range, they will not target him). He also gains Seal Strength (ATK debuff) and Break Shot (DEF debuff), the latter of which gives him an extra bow range, and together make him a kind of chip attack, debuff applying machine, that I would theorize to be much more helpful in harder difficulties once they release, but as it stands gives him a neat utility as an initiator against monster units. I intend to add the Poisonstrike ability to him on top of this, particularly to help with his raw damage against said monsters, and a Venin Bow once I get ahold of one (do their effects stack?). As for sword skills he gains Haze Slice, which also works as a safe chip option against, say, Snipers and Bow Knights. His aforementioned freedom with ability equips also lets him take Steal for added utility, and I'm sure many more off-branch ability combinations I am yet to discover.

Being an Assassin on its own, might I add, serves a useful utility, in that you can block off enemy attack paths in places, and in this regard I often have him tailing beside Raphael, providing support bonuses and battle assist bonuses to him just from being there with a bow equipped, while effectively walling off back row units if needed, funneling them all into attacking the Seraph Robe and Goddess Statue stacked Raphael only.

In this way he is a versatile Utility pick, moreso than a Wyvern Lord Hilda with Weight -,  Hit + 20%, Death Blow, Axe Prowess, and an Accuracy Ring. However, I find both to be fun in their own way.. xD

I just think if a unit seems weak to you...try to think outside of the box! :)

[CarmineCoffee]

22 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

>Raphael
>Good unit
Pick one. Because I fail to see it with him having all the glaring weaknesses he has.

Maybe "good" is a bit of an overestimation, but he's keeping up. He always hits x4, so he'll get two hits in before the enemy counterattacks, and he almost always kills before they get to. He crits quite often for me, which is handy along with the x4 hits because he can clear through a monster's full HP bar even with barriers intact. So he clears a bar and cracks the barrier for the rest of my team to finish off. Again, I have limited myself to only using the GD cast + Sylvain and Petra. I haven't found him to lag behind the rest of my team. I have him at base 46 str at level 38 so I don't know if he's an anomaly. 

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

58 minutes ago, CarmineCoffee said:

Maybe "good" is a bit of an overestimation, but he's keeping up. He always hits x4, so he'll get two hits in before the enemy counterattacks, and he almost always kills before they get to. He crits quite often for me, which is handy along with the x4 hits because he can clear through a monster's full HP bar even with barriers intact. So he clears a bar and cracks the barrier for the rest of my team to finish off. Again, I have limited myself to only using the GD cast + Sylvain and Petra. I haven't found him to lag behind the rest of my team. I have him at base 46 str at level 38 so I don't know if he's an anomaly. 

Mediocre might fit. I dunno.

That strength feels natural for Dimitri, though.

[leesangstar10]

This tier is ordered!

Rating criteria:

1. This is Classic Hard Mode. Not new game plus. So no using renown to get class mastery skills and etc
2. I will include the some Lunatic changes that we know so far. Ex. Death Knight can move
3. I WILL consider the skills/art units can get as they class change or level their weapon skills. Ex. Sylvain, Seteth, Ferdinand can get swift strike by raising lance skills to A. (Extremely broken art)
4. Availability for student is based on the route they start in. I did this because students outside your house availability can vary based on your Byleth’s skill level. This balances things out and will make it less complicated. Ex. Will not consider Hilda’s late available recruitment option in church route. However, I will consider Alois’s very late recruitment since he is recruited late in all routes.
5. Will consider the investment into the unit. Like how hard it is to reach the minimum certification requirement for a certain class. Ex. Difficulty of getting Dorothea to a dark knight since she is bad at riding and neutral in lance.
6. Canto/mount is broken. This will affect a unit’s rating a lot.
7. Optimal plays. No luck based strats using divine pulse or killing one enemy each turn.
8. Crest, Hero relic, and sacred weapons considered.

Factors not considered:

1. Team synergy
2. Dancer class change. Anybody can be a dancer and can be really good.
3. Grinding and new game plus features. Can make any unit good/broken

Edited August 18, 2019 by leesangstar10

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I am not here to debate about tierlists, but I want to admit that I have not seen anyone in Fire Emblem who can oneshot bosses as constantly as Lysithea does.

She is the best mage to use since Asvel from FE5. However I have take into account that Asvel, rather Grafcalibur, is way more essential because taking out FE5's bosses is infamously known as a tricky task thanks to the stupid throne boosts. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Lysithea

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

This tier is ordered!

 

Edelgard needs to go to the top tier, her stat build and trivial access to the wyvern line is a ridiculous combination in this game, plus her divine weapon is broken.

Dimitri is also really damn good, though he doesn't fly quite as easily so I can mayyybe buy A but if any non-flier deserves S, it's him. He can OHKO basically anything.

What makes Seteth better than various other good fliers in A? His base stats didn't really stand out, and he has less availability.

Manuela's too high IMO, Warp isn't that good. In general A feels a bit overcrowded; I'm kinda skeptical that Bernadetta, Ashe, Shamir, Lorenz, Sylvain, or Linhardt belong there as well, but I could see arguments.

[Skell_]

1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

Factors not considered:

1. Team synergy
2. Dancer class change. Anybody can be a dancer and can be really good.
3. Grinding and new game plus features. Can make any unit good/broken

 

I'll add some input for NG+ since I like your list despite some minor issues I have with it like how Dimtri isn't top tier but Seteth is. Either way. 

- Dedue drops down to D due to being incapable of training any mounted classes with ease and is horribly inflexible. He can't take advantage of NG+ like others can.

- All later recruits like Catherine and Shamir drop a tier due to later recruitment time and having to go out of your way to train them in classes like Brigand/Pegasus Knight for specific skills which students trained from level one have an easier time picking this up in NG and then always having access to it in NG+.

- All magic users can jump up a tier due to having access to their strongest spell from the get go.

- Units with good budding talents such as Felix deserve a bit extra due to being able to circumvent the difficult part of training their skill and just immediately get it up to max and maybe deserves a tier boost

 

[leesangstar10]

I posted it as a picture since it is easier to just look at.

I tried to be as non bias as possible. This consist of theory crafting/personal(or friend) experience. So take it with a grain of salt since the e this game is still new.

S tier:

Byleth has the best and early access to a hero relic with great growth rates. Great recalls option with his unique class and flier class.

Claude a broken flyer. 

Lysithea is amazing with the hero relic and later on will be the best reliable way to kill the death knight in Lunatic.

Seteth a broken flyer as well lol but later availability. Has broken combat art swift strike. Basically gives a weapon a brave effect with some extra Mt.

A tier:

Edelgard: Best class is actually wyvern lord. Her combat art is kinda like gale force hence making it possible to cheese maps. Haven't used it. Reason why its not S is because of the investment not being as worth since there isn't enough chapters you can use this cheese strat on.

Petra and Ingrid: Serve as early game flier with decent growths. Pretty much the same with minor differences such as Petra is easier to become a wyvern rider, but Ingrid gets a hero relic. 

Leonie, Bernie, Ashe, Shamir(aka bow knights): They all are pretty similar. Leonie has the best growths, Bernie has an amazing crest, Ashe provides chest unlocking utility with his personal and better class path(gets access to death blow), and Shamir being a great pre promote with great personal skill. They are all similar since they are all going to end up as a bow knight. Honestly I think they are basically the same with minor differences, hence why I am just grouping them.

Lorenz: Basically a bow knight that targets res with his hero relic. He is lower than the bow knights because the difficulty to one shot enemies due to mediocre Spd. His magic growth high enough to one shot to and doesn't have like a brave effect attack unlike the bow knights. Later in Lunatic might drop lower possibly a tier.

Ferdinand and Sylvain:  Lol similar design and growth rates. These two are very similar since they both will end up as great knights or wyvern lords(personally think you should do this instead). Provide early game high mobility and are great stride users. Both have access to swift strike making them broken as Seteth. Personally think they should be the same place as Seteth but friends disagree so this is where they are.

Ditmitri: Solid stats and growths nothing to go wrong. Just doesn't have anything broken to my knowledge. Just really good.

Linhardt: Best staff/faith magic utility. Can use warp and use physics. He can use gambits to make up the lack of not having an AOE healing spell. Offensively really decent too.

Catherine: Broken the moment you get her. Makes the mid game a joke. Unfortunately she falls off late game due to terrible master class options. She will eventually fall behind compared to your mounted unit. But still a great unit.

Hilda: Good axe user with great hero relic. Unfortunately her bad proficiency in authority and the amount of investment needed really hinders her rating. But still great unit.

Manuala: Good staff/faith magic utility with warp. Unfortunately she is a big investment for her master class Gremory or Holy Knight. Personally think she should be in B but a lot of people thought I was dumb putting her there. I just think she should be a tier below Linhardt since less of an investment and access to physics unlike Manuala.

B tier:

Ignatz: Easily the worst out of the bow knights. He is a tier below because it requires more investment for him to become a bow knight. Also he doesn't provide anything unique like the other bow knights. Still a good unit though.

Cyril: Basically he screams needing lots of investment. Has potential to be good, but there are basically better units with less investments.  Leonie is basically the same as Cyril as a bow knight (they both have 40% str and 60% spd but Leonie comes earlier) and Seteth when he joins you will have about the same stats as a wyvern lord(but requiring no investment and good personal skill) Still can become a good bow knight or wyvern lord.

Flayn: Great staff/faith magic utility. It is about the same as Linhardt, except she requires lots of investment. Still rescue is nice to save the green units and could help move units that are behind forward. Still the investment cost makes her a tier below Linhardt.

Hubert: A worse Lorenz imo. His offensive capabilities is better but Lorenz has the staff that gives him +2 range. Also Lorenz is easier to promote as a dark knight. Still solid unit. 

Dorothea: An average mage, but has access to meteor making her pretty good. But the difficulties promoting her to a dark knight and not that great faith spells make her worse than Hubert slightly. Also I KNOW SHE CAN BE A DANCER BUT SO CAN THE OTHER STUDENTS THIS IS WHY I AM IGNORING THAT RECLASS. So many people told me about and it is annoying to keep on telling them to read the rules.

Marianna: Okay combat and meh staff utility. Silence is bad since bosses are unaffected by it and the only useful spell is physics. She is over Mercedes because of better hero relic and easier promotion to holy knight(which is the better class option for Mercedes). Still the two are similar

Mercedes: Best healer, but doesn't do much for her. Still a solid unit and can be your primary/only healer. 

Felix: Good growths, it is unfortunate that swords are the worst weapon to invest in since mortal servant is the best master class for sword users unfortunately. Making him any other class is going to be a big investment. Also his hero relic is one of the worst. 

Caspar: Just decent all across the board. He can be a good wyvern lord but will require lots of investment. War master is decent and their class mastery skill is amazing, but at that point, you will be mostly finished with the game.

C tier:

Hanneman: A worse Dorothea. Also his spd growth is trash. 20% and dark knights get a -5% spd penalty. Still has meteor and thoron so he isn't trash, but doesn't excel.

Gilbert: Terrible class, meh growths, and bad availability. He is better than Alois just because it is easier for him to become a Great Knight and better personal skill.

Raphael: Love this man, but 15% spd and bad proficiency in riding makes it hard for me to defend the guy. He requires lots of investment if you want him to become either a wyvern lord or great knight. He can be a good tank with possibility to self heal(personal +goddess ring) but tanks in general aren't that good. Great character, but bad unit.

Dedue: Bad at both riding and flying. He is about the same as Raphael, but personally found Raphael better because he can self heal.

Annette: Her spell options aren't that good. Terrible faith spells and decent/alright reason. Her hero relic is basically blue lion locked, making her even worse in other routes. (I am still judging this from all routes, only availability is route based)

Alois: Terrible availability, terrible base class, and terrible personal skill. Also has bad proficiency in flying so he is basically has to be a War Master(which is the second worse master class imo). He could be a Great Knight, but that will require lots of investment and at that point of the game, you would basically be almost done.

[leesangstar10]

14 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Edelgard needs to go to the top tier, her stat build and trivial access to the wyvern line is a ridiculous combination in this game, plus her divine weapon is broken.

Dimitri is also really damn good, though he doesn't fly quite as easily so I can mayyybe buy A but if any non-flier deserves S, it's him. He can OHKO basically anything.

What makes Seteth better than various other good fliers in A? His base stats didn't really stand out, and he has less availability.

Manuela's too high IMO, Warp isn't that good. In general A feels a bit overcrowded; I'm kinda skeptical that Bernadetta, Ashe, Shamir, Lorenz, Sylvain, or Linhardt belong there as well, but I could see arguments.

I haven't used her with the wyvern build yet so this is mainly based on theory crafting. I just think that much investment with that little chapters to use doesn't seem as S worthy, but I will consider your opinion!

Dimitri so far has just been really solid, not like carrying the team or anything. Sylvain and Ferdinand can also OHKO things too, but I think him moving up or staying really just depends on lunatic.

Seteth has Swift strike and requires no investment at all to be this good. I do agree that he has bad availability, but I wasn't sure if that is enough of a reason to bum him down to A.

Personally I agree with your argument with Mauela, but everybody else seems to disagree so I thought maybe it is bias, but she's most likely going down once lunatic.

[leesangstar10]

18 minutes ago, Skell_ said:

I'll add some input for NG+ since I like your list despite some minor issues I have with it like how Dimtri isn't top tier but Seteth is. Either way. 

- Dedue drops down to D due to being incapable of training any mounted classes with ease and is horribly inflexible. He can't take advantage of NG+ like others can.

- All later recruits like Catherine and Shamir drop a tier due to later recruitment time and having to go out of your way to train them in classes like Brigand/Pegasus Knight for specific skills which students trained from level one have an easier time picking this up in NG and then always having access to it in NG+.

- All magic users can jump up a tier due to having access to their strongest spell from the get go.

- Units with good budding talents such as Felix deserve a bit extra due to being able to circumvent the difficult part of training their skill and just immediately get it up to max and maybe deserves a tier boost

 

For mine, I don't consider NG+. If I do, then basically everybody becomes the same. Also dropping units to D tier I feel like is too early to say since Lunatic hasn't come out yet, but I do see your argument. 

[leesangstar10]

Also I was thinking about maybe making another forum post with the tier list so it is easier for people to see it and make quick and easy adjustments based on discussion. 

[Skell_]

I was more focusing on taking advantage of NG+ easily since in theory all units just become renown addicted jack of all trades. Some just do it easier than others. Dedue is just by far the most inflexible unit in the game so once everyone can finally put all their flexibility to use he falls behind his peers. Lunatic Dedue will likely have his own ups and downs. His sky-high defense will undoubtedly give him a role in the early game that even S and A tier unis can't compete with. His hit rate, even with an accuracy ring, still stunk for me, so on Lunatic he will likely end up being a pure wall 90% of the time. Still, I could be wrong about that.

[leesangstar10]

2 minutes ago, Skell_ said:

I was more focusing on taking advantage of NG+ easily since in theory all units just become renown addicted jack of all trades. Some just do it easier than others. Dedue is just by far the most inflexible unit in the game so once everyone can finally put all their flexibility to use he falls behind his peers. Lunatic Dedue will likely have his own ups and downs. His sky-high defense will undoubtedly give him a role in the early game that even S and A tier unis can't compete with. His hit rate, even with an accuracy ring, still stunk for me, so on Lunatic he will likely end up being a pure wall 90% of the time. Still, I could be wrong about that.

lol have everybody become a wyvern lord. Still putting him in D is a valid argument since he is extremely inflexible even in NG+ and his class option sucks. He might be a must early on, but prob be trash later on in lunatic. Only time will tell when lunatic comes out since I want this tier list to be based on the higher difficulties.

[Silly]

Just going to point out that you guys are sleeping on Catherine. She's easily one of the better units in the game.

The only thing you need to keep in mind with her is that Swordmaster is a garbage class in terms of long-term viability, since it has 5 move. If you put in the effort to switch her into a better class, then she can easily be incredibly good throughout the whole game. Her base stats are insane, her growths are good, and although she doesn't have any important strengths, she's neutral in the important skills so it's not that difficult to point her towards a better class. Having to put some tutoring into her is well worth it, given the payoff.

Falcon Knight Catherine is an excellent unit. Given her absurd bases, her stats at 30 are on actually average better than most of the "good" Wyvern Lords. She will usually be ahead of them by a couple of points of strength, while also being significantly faster than them, meaning that she can basically double even the fastest of enemies, such as enemy Swordmasters and Assassins.

You do need to know what you're doing when planning out things early, and it does take a little bit of effort to get her there, but it's not that difficult. Falcon Knight requirements are more lenient than Wyvern Lord, since the class only requires Flying B+ instead of Flying A (the difference between B+ and A is actually pretty big), and you don't even have to worry about the Sword requirement at all on Catherine. The lead-in class, Pegasus Knight, is also pretty easy to certify for, since its requirements are only Lance C, Flying D. D ranks are pretty trivial to hit, so it's really easy to hit Flying D and either D or D+ in Lances, and then take the test anyways. Sitting in Pegasus Knight for ~15 levels goes a long way to giving you the appropriate requirements for Falcon Knight (use a Knowledge Gem if you have one, it's really helpful in this case).

Edited August 18, 2019 by Silly

[redlight]

1 hour ago, Silly said:

Just going to point out that you guys are sleeping on Catherine. She's easily one of the better units in the game.

The only thing you need to keep in mind with her is that Swordmaster is a garbage class in terms of long-term viability, since it has 5 move. If you put in the effort to switch her into a better class, then she can easily be incredibly good throughout the whole game. Her base stats are insane, her growths are good, and although she doesn't have any important strengths, she's neutral in the important skills so it's not that difficult to point her towards a better class. Having to put some tutoring into her is well worth it, given the payoff.

Falcon Knight Catherine is an excellent unit. Given her absurd bases, her stats at 30 are on actually average better than most of the "good" Wyvern Lords. She will usually be ahead of them by a couple of points of strength, while also being significantly faster than them, meaning that she can basically double even the fastest of enemies, such as enemy Swordmasters and Assassins.

You do need to know what you're doing when planning out things early, and it does take a little bit of effort to get her there, but it's not that difficult. Falcon Knight requirements are more lenient than Wyvern Lord, since the class only requires Flying B+ instead of Flying A (the difference between B+ and A is actually pretty big), and you don't even have to worry about the Sword requirement at all on Catherine. The lead-in class, Pegasus Knight, is also pretty easy to certify for, since its requirements are only Lance C, Flying D. D ranks are pretty trivial to hit, so it's really easy to hit Flying D and either D or D+ in Lances, and then take the test anyways. Sitting in Pegasus Knight for ~15 levels goes a long way to giving you the appropriate requirements for Falcon Knight (use a Knowledge Gem if you have one, it's really helpful in this case).

I haven't tried it yet, but Catherine is pretty much free in the goals department since she's pretty much achieved everything she could in the swordmaster class.

[Shadow Mir]

14 hours ago, ra2bk said:

You made comments using the present tense that said you were in the early going on the same day you were arguing dodge tanks and deep Deadeye weren't ever viable in the game. In both cases, people pointed to actual game use and/or gave statistics from in-game and you referred to incorrect theory or noted how the formulas were worse than in other games in the series without considering the validity in this game's unique environment. In both cases you continued the same argument over several more posts after evidence (anecdotal or screen shot) was brought forth to prove you wrong. In this instance, a week later after further anecdotal evidence was shared to oppose your viewpoint, you continued the argument without any supporting in-game evidence or even anything anecdotal. You just compared the game's formula to a different game again.

I respect the fact that you seem to know the other games in the series very well, but when someone tells you something works because they have done it in this one, repeatedly arguing that it doesn't with no supporting evidence isn't a very effective strategy and is quite annoying.

Once your standard of "it's impossible" is shattered, your next main argument against things seems to be that it takes a lot of investment. Your main character's role in this game is literally a teacher. All you are doing is investing in characters. It's like 50% of the game. Try it, it's fun.

Well, I see no point in lying about how far I've gotten. And I've got my own designs that slow me down while I ponder how to pull them off. And I don't see deep Deadeye as viable because at max range, you're taking a 100(!!!) hit penalty (assuming you're a Bow Knight), which should speak for itself (and it's not helped by the fact that Deadeye gets no hit boost to make up for this; Claude does get a similar art, but it's more viable due to actually giving a hit boost to alleviate the hit penalty you're taking). Long story short, better get a rabbit's foot or some other lucky item if you wanna hit something from that far. Anyway, I'm not one to simply take others' word at face value because few things piss me off more than seeing something that gets an assload of hype fall woefully short of living up to said hype.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

I haven't used her with the wyvern build yet so this is mainly based on theory crafting. I just think that much investment with that little chapters to use doesn't seem as S worthy, but I will consider your opinion!

Dimitri so far has just been really solid, not like carrying the team or anything. Sylvain and Ferdinand can also OHKO things too, but I think him moving up or staying really just depends on lunatic.

Seteth has Swift strike and requires no investment at all to be this good. I do agree that he has bad availability, but I wasn't sure if that is enough of a reason to bum him down to A.

Personally I agree with your argument with Mauela, but everybody else seems to disagree so I thought maybe it is bias, but she's most likely going down once lunatic.

I don't really see how Edelgard needs much investment, or at least more than any other unit in this game? Axe is the most stringent requirement for the wyvern line and it's her speciality; flight is at least something she's neutral in. (Another soft-req skill for the flying line is Authority since there are limited options for flying battalions and again that's a strength of hers.)

Seteth may have Swift Strike, but anyone can do consecutive attacks with a brave weapon, so I don't feel like this art stands out as much as you seem to think it does. Any advantage Seteth may derive from using Swift Strike off a Silver Lance+ or Spear of Assal (with their higher might) is offset by (a) the fact that wyverns get Axefaire, not Lancefaire; (b) the fact that his competition has Death Blow/Darting Blow from their time as a second-tier job, which he misses; and (c) the fact that brave weapons can get followup attacks and combat arts can not.

[redlight]

Seteth is a good unit. I just don't think he's that good to the point of being one of the best units in the game. Good prepromote worthy of being deployed in battles, maybe top 5 or something if you don't recruit anyone from other houses. Worst case scenario in case you screw up your units daddy Seteth there to pick up the scraps.

[Skell_]

8 hours ago, Silly said:

Just going to point out that you guys are sleeping on Catherine. She's easily one of the better units in the game.

The only thing you need to keep in mind with her is that Swordmaster is a garbage class in terms of long-term viability, since it has 5 move. If you put in the effort to switch her into a better class, then she can easily be incredibly good throughout the whole game. Her base stats are insane, her growths are good, and although she doesn't have any important strengths, she's neutral in the important skills so it's not that difficult to point her towards a better class. Having to put some tutoring into her is well worth it, given the payoff.

Falcon Knight Catherine is an excellent unit. Given her absurd bases, her stats at 30 are on actually average better than most of the "good" Wyvern Lords. She will usually be ahead of them by a couple of points of strength, while also being significantly faster than them, meaning that she can basically double even the fastest of enemies, such as enemy Swordmasters and Assassins.

You do need to know what you're doing when planning out things early, and it does take a little bit of effort to get her there, but it's not that difficult. Falcon Knight requirements are more lenient than Wyvern Lord, since the class only requires Flying B+ instead of Flying A (the difference between B+ and A is actually pretty big), and you don't even have to worry about the Sword requirement at all on Catherine. The lead-in class, Pegasus Knight, is also pretty easy to certify for, since its requirements are only Lance C, Flying D. D ranks are pretty trivial to hit, so it's really easy to hit Flying D and either D or D+ in Lances, and then take the test anyways. Sitting in Pegasus Knight for ~15 levels goes a long way to giving you the appropriate requirements for Falcon Knight (use a Knowledge Gem if you have one, it's really helpful in this case).

Huh, that's a pretty interesting idea. I noticed she was starting to fall off towards the end of my campaign due to that 5 movement so that might help a lot.

She really doesn't want to be a Mortal Savant anyways with a bane in Reason and boring spell list compared to units like Felix. It's just a shame she's so inflexible due to her only boons being Swords which only two Master Classes use and no lower rank mounted unit needs, and Brawl which she can't utilize well at all as war masters are gender-locked. Great unit, but a victim of swords getting the shaft and being a pre-promote.

[OCDbox]

10 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

I posted it as a picture since it is easier to just look at.

I tried to be as non bias as possible. This consist of theory crafting/personal(or friend) experience. So take it with a grain of salt since the e this game is still new.

S tier:

Byleth has the best and early access to a hero relic with great growth rates. Great recalls option with his unique class and flier class.

Byleth's hero relic is good, but it's really not any better than an iron bow+ with C bow rank, but I don't disagree with the rank.

I do agree with the criteria it's a good idea assume you went with the respective house for each student.

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Claude a broken flyer. 

Lysithea is amazing with the hero relic and later on will be the best reliable way to kill the death knight in Lunatic.

Seteth a broken flyer as well lol but later availability. Has broken combat art swift strike. Basically gives a weapon a brave effect with some extra Mt.

Agree on Claude.

You can kill the death knight (on turn 1) with anyone with C lances and at least 9 str + battalion bonuses + rally strength (use Raphael or Annette) and if you keep the lance of ruin (need Sylvain to be recruited tho) in chapter 6. It's not too hard to kill him. Even Ignatz can meet that benchmark.  Lysithea's Warp at B is REALLY good and saves A LOT of turns.

Seteth is good. I disagree he's S rank because of his availability (I'd say A- or B rank). His combat can be replicated by characters you get earlier.

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A tier:

Edelgard: Best class is actually wyvern lord. Her combat art is kinda like gale force hence making it possible to cheese maps. Haven't used it. Reason why its not S is because of the investment not being as worth since there isn't enough chapters you can use this cheese strat on.

Petra and Ingrid: Serve as early game flier with decent growths. Pretty much the same with minor differences such as Petra is easier to become a wyvern rider, but Ingrid gets a hero relic. 

I disagree that investment is much for Edelgard. You have her since chapter 1. She only needs D flying and C lances to gets to pegasus knight. She is also a good candidate for Flying + Smite (as early as chapter 5 if you are smart about planning) which is almost as good as warp for any chapter that takes more than 1 turn. I think her weakness in bows is the greater issue, but she is easily an S rank character

Petra and Ingrid are good because they can go pegasus knight and contribute with flying utility several chapters because Seteth gets recruited. They also have time to invest in bows (Petra has it as a strength) for good 1-2 range options for enemy phase which Seteth also doesn't have.

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Leonie, Bernie, Ashe, Shamir(aka bow knights): They all are pretty similar. Leonie has the best growths, Bernie has an amazing crest, Ashe provides chest unlocking utility with his personal and better class path(gets access to death blow), and Shamir being a great pre promote with great personal skill. They are all similar since they are all going to end up as a bow knight. Honestly I think they are basically the same with minor differences, hence why I am just grouping them.

Bernie and Ashe have very shaky growths and bad bases and fail to meet benchmarks early which means they have trouble snowballing. They also have shaky defense which means they have trouble function on enemy phase. This is just ancedotal experience, but since I play lowest turn count, their performance is easily a tier worst than Leonie. Bernie's crest is unreliable for boss killing. Ashe's chest unlocking utility is useless, you can buy chest/door keys cheaply and most maps come with them for the same number of chests available. Leonie also takes literally no investment whatsoever to be a good bow knight so you can focus on other students since her strengths are all in the right areas. I'd say Leonie is A, Bernie and Ashe (and Ignatz) would be B. Shamir is probably B as well since she is recruited later (chapter 6 at the earliest) and will need a little time to get on a horse or pegasus.

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Lorenz: Basically a bow knight that targets res with his hero relic. He is lower than the bow knights because the difficulty to one shot enemies due to mediocre Spd. His magic growth high enough to one shot to and doesn't have like a brave effect attack unlike the bow knights. Later in Lunatic might drop lower possibly a tier.

He fails to make benchmarks ancedotally he is less reliable than Ferdinand and Sylvain. I'd say a B rank unit. He does have good strengths tho and is viable on a horse.

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Ferdinand and Sylvain:  Lol similar design and growth rates. These two are very similar since they both will end up as great knights or wyvern lords(personally think you should do this instead). Provide early game high mobility and are great stride users. Both have access to swift strike making them broken as Seteth. Personally think they should be the same place as Seteth but friends disagree so this is where they are.

Swift strike doesn't come until A rank. That's like late mid game at best. Sylvain makes a viable dark knight too since it gives him Physic access and free 1-2 range since he has a bow weakness.

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Ditmitri: Solid stats and growths nothing to go wrong. Just doesn't have anything broken to my knowledge. Just really good.

Probably a bit worse than Claude and Edelguard, but probably your best unit after Byleth on Blue Lions and easy access to bow knight is pretty good. I'd say A+ or S-.

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Linhardt: Best staff/faith magic utility. Can use warp and use physics. He can use gambits to make up the lack of not having an AOE healing spell. Offensively really decent too.

I agree he should be 1 tier below where-ever you place Lysithea.

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Catherine: Broken the moment you get her. Makes the mid game a joke. Unfortunately she falls off late game due to terrible master class options. She will eventually fall behind compared to your mounted unit. But still a great unit.

I agree with Silly. You can make her a Pegasus knight and she becomes ridiculous. You can work on this as early as chapter 6. She doesn't have a bow weakness either to get 1-2 range eventually as well

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Hilda: Good axe user with great hero relic. Unfortunately her bad proficiency in authority and the amount of investment needed really hinders her rating. But still great unit.

No worse than Ingrid and Petra IMO. She is another viable Flyer with Smite (which is IMO almost as good as warp). Authority weakness is bad, but reaching D isn't too hard for her since you have her since day 1.

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Manuala: Good staff/faith magic utility with warp. Unfortunately she is a big investment for her master class Gremory or Holy Knight. Personally think she should be in B but a lot of people thought I was dumb putting her there. I just think she should be a tier below Linhardt since less of an investment and access to physics unlike Manuala.

I agree a tier below Linhardt, she's the worst Warper and comes later than the other ones which means lots of catching up.

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B tier:

Ignatz: Easily the worst out of the bow knights. He is a tier below because it requires more investment for him to become a bow knight. Also he doesn't provide anything unique like the other bow knights. Still a good unit though.

The investment if you have him since day 1 is not much. C lances and D riding can be gotten easily by chapter 5 if you set his goals correctly. Rally speed is easily the most useful rally and saves a turn in chapter 2 and route maps early on. I think he should be B tier with the other early archers.

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Cyril: Basically he screams needing lots of investment. Has potential to be good, but there are basically better units with less investments.  Leonie is basically the same as Cyril as a bow knight (they both have 40% str and 60% spd but Leonie comes earlier) and Seteth when he joins you will have about the same stats as a wyvern lord(but requiring no investment and good personal skill) Still can become a good bow knight or wyvern lord.

Being worse than Leonie and Seteth is not that hard. I'd say he's no worse than Ashe, Bernie, and Ignatz. He happens to level riding AND flying well so he can catch up easily. B rank unit.

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Flayn: Great staff/faith magic utility. It is about the same as Linhardt, except she requires lots of investment. Still rescue is nice to save the green units and could help move units that are behind forward. Still the investment cost makes her a tier below Linhardt.

Definitely worse than Lindhart, rescue will have 4 range with +1 magic at base. IMO that's enough for her to be B rank.

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Hubert: A worse Lorenz imo. His offensive capabilities is better but Lorenz has the staff that gives him +2 range. Also Lorenz is easier to promote as a dark knight. Still solid unit. 

I think probably same tier as Lorenz with same issues. He has rally magic to give warp an extra range though which is something. Probably B rank.

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Dorothea: An average mage, but has access to meteor making her pretty good. But the difficulties promoting her to a dark knight and not that great faith spells make her worse than Hubert slightly. Also I KNOW SHE CAN BE A DANCER BUT SO CAN THE OTHER STUDENTS THIS IS WHY I AM IGNORING THAT RECLASS. So many people told me about and it is annoying to keep on telling them to read the rules.

Marianna: Okay combat and meh staff utility. Silence is bad since bosses are unaffected by it and the only useful spell is physics. She is over Mercedes because of better hero relic and easier promotion to holy knight(which is the better class option for Mercedes). Still the two are similar

Mercedes: Best healer, but doesn't do much for her. Still a solid unit and can be your primary/only healer. 

I think your healers with Physics should be B rank at worst. Dorthea has meteor and no crest, Marianne and thoron and a crest, Mercedes has fortify and a crest (I'd say they are all equal).

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Felix: Good growths, it is unfortunate that swords are the worst weapon to invest in since mortal servant is the best master class for sword users unfortunately. Making him any other class is going to be a big investment. Also his hero relic is one of the worst. 

His best class is bow knight IMO. You have him since day 1 and you can easily meet the cavalier requirements by chapter 5 with planning. His early game personal skill bonus makes him one of your best units. IMO he should be A rank similar to Leonie.

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Caspar: Just decent all across the board. He can be a good wyvern lord but will require lots of investment. War master is decent and their class mastery skill is amazing, but at that point, you will be mostly finished with the game.

So can Raphael who can offer Rally strength and smite. I don't think investment in neutral skills to C should ever be an argument in this game since half the game is literally investment.

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C tier:

Hanneman: A worse Dorothea. Also his spd growth is trash. 20% and dark knights get a -5% spd penalty. Still has meteor and thoron so he isn't trash, but doesn't excel.

Gilbert: Terrible class, meh growths, and bad availability. He is better than Alois just because it is easier for him to become a Great Knight and better personal skill.

Raphael: Love this man, but 15% spd and bad proficiency in riding makes it hard for me to defend the guy. He requires lots of investment if you want him to become either a wyvern lord or great knight. He can be a good tank with possibility to self heal(personal +goddess ring) but tanks in general aren't that good. Great character, but bad unit.

Wyvern is not a lot of investment. I was able to get him SMITE by chapter 5 and he met the Wyvern requirements by chapter 8 (although not the level requirement). This did not interfere with anyone else's growth because I prioritized professor points early on. He is very viable. Easily B tier. 

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Dedue: Bad at both riding and flying. He is about the same as Raphael, but personally found Raphael better because he can self heal.

He unfortunately is hard to fix because a weakness in both riding and flying AND bad availability is bad. 

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Annette: Her spell options aren't that good. Terrible faith spells and decent/alright reason. Her hero relic is basically blue lion locked, making her even worse in other routes. (I am still judging this from all routes, only availability is route based)

Alois: Terrible availability, terrible base class, and terrible personal skill. Also has bad proficiency in flying so he is basically has to be a War Master(which is the second worse master class imo). He could be a Great Knight, but that will require lots of investment and at that point of the game, you would basically be almost done.

I generally agree with your list, but I think you are overrating investment and underrating availability. I also think there's clear enough differences in potential and how they play out throughout the game that you need more tiers. IMO

S Tier: Byleth (F>M for early Pegasus knight), Lords,  Lysithia (warp in chapter 5 and 6 is amazing)

A tier: Petra, Leonie, Ingrid, Hilda (early potential pegasus knights and good stats, neutral/proficient in bows), Linhardt (2nd best warper, good healer), Dancer.

A- tier: Sylvain, Ferdinand, Felix (good stats, but cannot be pegasus knights early)

B tier: Catherine, Shamir (Good bases, joins later, viable if you plan for a mount), Seteth (Good bases, really late recruit), healers: Dorothea, Marianne, Mercedes.

B- tier: Ashe, Bernie, Ignatz, Cyril (bow knights with bad bases and shaky growths), Raphael (Rally Strength and SMITE on a flier; speed fixed somewhat with class bases), Caspar (solid Wyvern, shaky growths), Flayn (Rescue, no physics, joins later, bad weaknesses), Manuela (Warper, no physics, joins later, bad weaknesses), Hubert (solid early game + rally magic), Lorenz (shaky growths).

C Tier: Dedue, Annette and Hanneman (limited utility with early game or late meteor; limited potential)

C- Tier: Gilbert and Alois.

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by OCDbox