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What are your thoughts on Edelgard? *SPOILERS*

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1 hour ago, daisy jane said:

someone told me that and I was like. wait. What? when would that happen. 

 

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but i always recruit bernadetta. so it never occurred to me that Rando-Archer person - is actually Bernie if you don't recruit her. I had to watch it and Edelgard is all. "nice Sacrifice, BERN!". Cow. 


I guess  - my ultimate question is this. 
I understand and get that Edelgard wants to end nobility (as it is) based on the crests. 

but how was she going to eliminate the crests? 
Crests are in the blood. Hanneman  (and others, like Ingrid) - that crests just pop up. So. i mean it's somewhere deep in the DNA. so.what? is she going to go all Pharaoh and throw all the crest babies in a river or something? The war (on her end) eliminates the nobility but not the deeper issue for her which is the removal of crests.  

Was she actually going to eliminate the crests or just re-make the system so they weren't the foundation of nobility and status? The latter is fairly straightforward, the former is incredibly difficult.

The whole topic, IMO, can be summarized as: While it's understandable how Edelgard ended up the way she did, that doesn't mean her methods are justified (because even though I'm an Edelgard fan, I'll freely admit they aren't).

Seriously, even if it was right before the Holy Tomb events, when she's already got her plans ready to go, she could have reached out to Claude at least (who clearly doesn't give a damn about Crests or the Goddess) about TWSITD and her intent to oppose the Church. I believe it was commented on in another thread, but Claude's goals and Edelgard's are actually fairly similar and very much compatible. Admittedly, Claude's own personality and reputation as a schemer make it hard to trust him. Dmitri would likely flip if she admitted she was working with the ones who caused the Tragedy of Duscur, even if it was only to gain information on how to bring them down. Reaching out at that point could at least be a "Oh well, at least I TRIED to get them on my side before I committed to blood and flames"

 

As for those who seem to believe that Edelgard and TWSITD have a fairly equal partnership, I'd like to point out Hubert's paralogue and the destruction of Arianrhod make it clear there is a distinct technology and magical power gap between her forces and theirs. They basically created and indoctrinated her, and her status as the heir to the throne makes her a valuable pawn. Doesn't mean they aren't capable of removing her if she outright opposes them. Considering Arundel had Arianrhod destroyed just to warn Edelgard about further attacks on TWSITD agents, the idea they have a distinct edge over her seems perfectly fair. It's not until she becomes Empress and rallies the military that she even has public influence to match Arundel's (considering how her father's power has been mitigated by the nobles)

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30 minutes ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

As for those who seem to believe that Edelgard and TWSITD have a fairly equal partnership, I'd like to point out Hubert's paralogue and the destruction of Arianrhod make it clear there is a distinct technology and magical power gap between her forces and theirs. They basically created and indoctrinated her, and her status as the heir to the throne makes her a valuable pawn. Doesn't mean they aren't capable of removing her if she outright opposes them. Considering Arundel had Arianrhod destroyed just to warn Edelgard about further attacks on TWSITD agents, the idea they have a distinct edge over her seems perfectly fair. It's not until she becomes Empress and rallies the military that she even has public influence to match Arundel's (considering how her father's power has been mitigated by the nobles)

Also might be worth noting that it's in the interest of everyone for her to not go head first against TWSITD. If she were to do so before having the resources to beat them, it'd end up as the end of her dinasty and surely the Empire would fall completely under TWSITD (via a puppet). She basically accepts her role as "puppet" because she knows that rebelling before the time is right would cause far worse consquences.

That said, after playing through all routes of the game I feel like it would've been a more logical story if everyone ended up joining together (not necessarily a golden route with rainbows mind you). And I know that everyone was shouting to have an edgy darky story, but for 3H it would be much better to have a more "good" story. You can still have tragedy and bloodshed, but if Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude joined together it would be a lot more logical. Not straight away obviously, but through the game they should become allies and join forces, since they share ideals. The only thing I'm not sure of in this case would be the place of the church, but it could keep its gray role, helping the protagonist but still being shady.

Every path would still be different in the way it plays out, since students would change, lord would change and story would change, but instead of throwing in some random conflicts just because "feels", they'd actually work together since they care about the same things. Especially thinking of the alliance role here, as of now it never truly makes sense to war Claude (or for him to war the others). Think of CF, instead of having Claude randomly side with the Church have him propose an alliance or have her reach out for it. In Azure Moon Dimitri could find out the truth when he becomes lucid again and actually propose the logical solution to Edelgard.
Their backstory and finding and rebuilding the relationship between the two could actually have been one of the main focus of the story. And it would've been a better story imo (surely less messy), trying to mend the problems between the lords and then fighting TWSITD (+ eventually the church) to achieve a peaceful Fodlan. Which would also be an interesting "circle story" (I'm not really sure what it's called in english) where you go back to the initial situation of balance.

Edited by timon

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20 minutes ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

 

Seriously, even if it was right before the Holy Tomb events, when she's already got her plans ready to go, she could have reached out to Claude at least (who clearly doesn't give a damn about Crests or the Goddess) about TWSITD and her intent to oppose the Church. I believe it was commented on in another thread, but Claude's goals and Edelgard's are actually fairly similar and very much compatible. Admittedly, Claude's own personality and reputation as a schemer make it hard to trust him.

 

It is something I have been thinking about for a while about Edelgard's views on the Alliance now. It's a personal interpretation, but I think she might see the Alliance as an ultimate example of 'Nobility as power-hungry and corrupt backstabbers'. I mean, look at Acheron, Gloucester and the general ploitical quagmire the place is. Sure, Goneril, Daphnel or Ordelia aren't like that, but it also does look like an inefficient cesspool of power struggles over petty pretexts at some levels. And I guess that means she sees Claude, all charm but scheming, smiling at you just as he goes for the poison (consequence of living in said cesspool and stigma of Almyran origin), in a biaised negative light because of that environment, envisioning him as 'The Noble', the petty backstabber witho hollow smiles hiding the hunger for power embodying everything she hates in the nobility as a social class.

Well, that is an interpretation which has been percolating in my head for a while, because yes, an alliance with Claude could have been very much possible, and I frankly regret that Edelgard's past trauma and trust issues closed that possibility. (Still hesitating between Silver Snow or Verdant WInd after Crimson Flower. Unless Silver Snow comes first...)

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Three houses is very much akin to a Shin Megami Tensei game in terms of its themes, albeit on a less extremist level, with Silver Snow/Azure Moon being Law, Verdant Wind (I assume) to be Neutral, and Crimson Flower obviously being Chaos.

And by that comparison, Edelgard shares many similarities to SMT Lucifer, a character who believes in the free will of humanity over gods, but will use underhanded methods to achieve their goals, although Lucifer is far more ruthless than Edelgard in that respect.

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5 minutes ago, Hunter Nightblood said:

Three houses is very much akin to a Shin Megami Tensei game in terms of its themes, albeit on a less extremist level, with Silver Snow/Azure Moon being Law, Verdant Wind (I assume) to be Neutral, and Crimson Flower obviously being Chaos.

And by that comparison, Edelgard shares many similarities to SMT Lucifer, a character who believes in the free will of humanity over gods, but will use underhanded methods to achieve their goals, although Lucifer is far more ruthless than Edelgard in that respect.

 

I am so seconding this. And thirding it for good measure. Might be why ultimately, I prefer Verdant Wind despite liking Edelgard. Neutrality Foreve. (Although the Church route is also a Neutral one).

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4 hours ago, dragonlordsd said:

Well, also keep in mind that there are things Blue Lions players have seen that Black Eagles players have not.

Like, a number of people still don't believe that Edelgard would actually 

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Set Bernadetta on fire

But that absolutely happens in Blue Lions route.

There is also similarly the fact that Rhea gets a lot of flack for

Spoiler

setting fire to her own soldiers in the final battle of the Black Eagles Path but the other routes show Edelgard refusing to evacuate the city of Enbarr, basically making the citizens into cannon fodder~

What route you play first does indeed color your view of the characters until you have all of the information.

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9 hours ago, CmdrQuartz said:

I think Edelgard suffers from a bad route. Like during play testing people asked why they couldn't join Edelgard and the devs went "Oh!... I guess that could technically be an option..." and so her route got the least amount of development time.

 

Hmm, I definitely disagree with this take! Every single map on Edelgard's route from Chapter 12 on is unique to her (talking in terms of enemy placement, before someone mentions that yes the bridge and monastery are on all routes), that's not a sign of a route that is an afterthought. And with all the villainous* buildup Rhea gets, I have a hard time believing there was never going to be a route where she was the main antagonist. Edelgard's route is shorter because she starts out in the best position after the timeskip, so of course her conquering her enemies takes less time than Dimitri reversing the occupation of Faerghus, saving Leicester, AND conquering Adrestia.

The church route is the one which feels most like an afterthought to me, actually; almost every map is recycled from BL or GD. It's possible the truth is the exact opposite of what you said, that during playtesting people were frustrated that they were being forced to join with Edelgard, so they were given a choice to avoid this by patching together bits of the other routes where you oppose Edelgard. I'm aware the church route does have some unique plot but it's possible that was moved there from other routes. (That said, wouldn't be surprised if all four routes were always intended to be in the game, either.)

IMO whatever you think of Edelgard, this game would feel a bit hollow without a route where you support her. One of the huge themes of the game is that people have both good and bad about them and which you see is often a matter of perspective, and having three routes where you oppose Edelgard and none where you ally with her would take away from this.

 

*Obviously Rhea isn't necessarily a villain, but her buildup is deliberately intended to be possibly taken that way, again depending on perspective.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf

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Well....now that I've finished the BL route, Edelgard became the first female lord which I outright hate.

She did that, she really did that. 

I feel like I'm of the few which did her route first and yet ended up disliking her anyway. Although the remaining routes could still change my opinion on her, but I sorta doubt it. 

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Yeah what happened in BL with Edelgard was a shock for me. I expected more of the same as what happened when I played Golden Deer.

She is such a great character. 

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32 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Yeah what happened in BL with Edelgard was a shock for me. I expected more of the same as what happened when I played Golden Deer.

She is such a great character. 

Are you talking about just the ending of BL compared to GD or the entire route? 

42 minutes ago, Rose482 said:

Well....now that I've finished the BL route, Edelgard became the first female lord which I outright hate.

She did that, she really did that. 

I feel like I'm of the few which did her route first and yet ended up disliking her anyway. Although the remaining routes could still change my opinion on her, but I sorta doubt it. 

So Edelgard is the second coming of Micaiah. Gets hated quite a lot by the fanbase. 

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7 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

So Edelgard is the second coming of Micaiah. Gets hated quite a lot by the fanbase. 

I would say one is more deserved than the other.

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Edelgard may be hated by some amongst the fanbase but not "by the fanbase".

I think this will be made clear when she'll dominate Heroes CYL4. I expect a complete blowout. 

Edited by Vince777

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4 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Edelgard may be hated by some amongst the fanbase but not "by the fanbase".

I think this will be made clear when she'll dominate Heroes CYL4. I expect a complete blowout. 

Camilla also won the latest CYL. Still doesn't change that some discussions about her can get... pretty bad and in that way she and Edelgard are similar.

Here on SF the Edelgard discussions have been handled fairly well but on Gamefaq and the FE Subreddit the hate towards her can get a little bit extreme and even toxic at times.

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21 minutes ago, Hekselka said:

Camilla also won the latest CYL. Still doesn't change that some discussions about her can get... pretty bad and in that way she and Edelgard are similar.

Here on SF the Edelgard discussions have been handled fairly well but on Gamefaq and the FE Subreddit the hate towards her can get a little bit extreme and even toxic at times.

Fought a war for her ideals. Got very desperate and bitter at the end when she was losing and her dreams were being crushed. To me, she's beautifully and realistically written.

Perhaps people should hate Dimitri more instead. Dude went on this crazy murder spree and tortured people.

Camilla was second in CYL last year and that's after being beaten out of the top 2 in the two previous years. I understand what you mean but I expect Edegard to be first this year, by a large margin, on her first year of introduction. 

 

Edited by Vince777

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45 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Perhaps people should hate Dimitri more instead. Dude went on this crazy murder spree and tortured people.

I don't want to start a debate here, but what???? Are you really trying to say that Dimitri's actions brought more hurt to people than Edelgard's? If so....lmao

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14 minutes ago, Rose482 said:

I don't want to start a debate here, but what???? Are you really trying to say that Dimitri's actions brought more hurt to people than Edelgard's? If so....lmao

From her perspective, the benefits of her new world brings about net gains. There's a world, a current paradigm, that victimizes people and it needs to be changed and she sees no other way than to do it with war. Some sacrifices for an eventual world where less of them have to be made. For a fairer world. 

Overthrowing an evil system is what she sought to do and that comes with bloodshed.

Dimitri needlessly killed and tortured. 

Edited by Vince777

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11 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

From her perspective, the benefits of her new world brings about net gains. Some sacrifices for an eventual world where less of them have to be made. For a fairer world. 

Dimitri needlessly killed and tortured. 

Which one did he killed needlessly? You cannot seriously mean the imperial soldiers which invaded his homeland and killed his comrades ... and all other cases we know of where self defense......

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4 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

From her perspective, the benefits of her new world brings about net gains. Some sacrifices for an eventual world where less of them have to be made. For a fairer world. 

Dimitri needlessly killed and tortured. 

Oh I don't really want to talk about Ms.The end justify the means right now. 

And no, he didn't? You make it sound like he went out of his way to capture and kill innocent people, while in fact the people he "killed and tortured" were either out to kill him first, or would have tried to end his life had they known his identity. Also the same people which were on the side that started the war which ruined both his, and other people lives. The people he killed were all soldiers, not some random civilians. 

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Both characters do some things which are absolutely hatable (and if you think otherwise, you're kidding yourself). Both are also extremely well-written, well-developed characters (I am increasingly certain I think they're the two best characters this series has ever produced). Whether a given person decides they can look past the hatable things or not is up to them, and it's interesting how differently players react to each of their situations.

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It is pretty clear that Dimitri seeks out imperial troops indiscriminately and that he seeks to kill them and do so in manners that would cause the most possible pain. Yes, he does got out of his way to kill and most certainly doesn't only do it in self-defense. He pursues a quest for vengeance. 

He was a straight up psychopathic murderer and acknowledges this much himself. It was enough to disgust some of his own allies, Felix particularly. He is less morally redeemable to me than Edelgard is. 

I'm not sure why he's getting a pass on only killing imperial troops rather than civilians considering Edelgard does too only wage war against the soldiers of the Church and Kingdom/Alliance. 

Why not talk about "the end justifying the means"? Wouldn't you support the overthrowing of tyrannic regimes? Most modern western civilizations have actually had this very same class revolution against the nobility system and it spawned what the western world is today.  

Edited by Vince777

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Dimitri may have killed countless soldiers, but he did it in self-defense since they were sent to attack the Monastery. Also, Dimitri suffers from PTSD, so at least it’s more understandable why he would attack like that. Unlike Edelgard, Dimitri feels sincere regret and apologies for his actions, and tries to find a peaceful method to end war unlike Edelgard, who uses the excuse of ‘ greater good ‘ to justify her actions, and never gives a single apology to anyone she hurts.

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6 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

Dimitri may have killed countless soldiers, but he did it in self-defense since they were sent to attack the Monastery. Also, Dimitri suffers from PTSD, so at least it’s more understandable why he would attack like that. Unlike Edelgard, Dimitri feels sincere regret and apologies for his actions, and tries to find a peaceful method to end war unlike Edelgard, who uses the excuse of ‘ greater good ‘ to justify her actions, and never gives a single apology to anyone she hurts.

End-game Dimitri is most certainly a better person than mid-game Dimitri. That said, I'm not sure remorse is enough to redeem him. 

He didn't only kill in self-defense and even if he did, it wouldn't explain why he seeks to do it in manners that would cause the most pain possible. 

Btw, I love Dimitri as a character and he and Edelgard's ending at the end of the Blue Lions route imo was the best written piece in the entire franchise. 

Edited by Vince777

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18 minutes ago, Rose482 said:

Oh I don't really want to talk about Ms.The end justify the means right now. 

 

Then why are you one a thread about her?

 

11 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

Dimitri suffers from PTSD,

I agree, Dimitry is justified because he suffers form the PTSD unlike Edelgard who was only tortured for years and watched her own family die horribly.

 

22 minutes ago, Rose482 said:

And no, he didn't? You make it sound like he went out of his way to capture and kill innocent people

because he did? The imperial troops didn't choose to start the war, most of Dimitry's killings were on the ground nobodies and Dimitry was known to take his time with them that he became known as the "one-eyed demon."

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10 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

End-game Dimitri is most certainly a better person than mid-game Dimitri. That said, I'm not sure remorse is enough to redeem him. 

He didn't only kill in self-defense and even if he did, it wouldn't explain why he seeks to do it in manners that would cause the most pain possible. 

Btw, I love Dimitri as a character and he and Edelgard's ending at the end of the Blue Lions route imo was the best written piece in the entire franchise. 

At least he and Rhea actually do apologize for their mistakes and strive to atone after apologizing. Edelgard doesn’t even apologize to her classmates for using them, let alone Byleth for being accomplice in their Father’s murder. 

Honestly, I find Dimitri and Rhea quite similar to one another. Both are characters who witness a tragedy and suffer disorder from it; yet try to keep a sane facade. When they realized what horrible mistakes they have made, they apologize and show deep regret and vow to change their ways.

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2 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

because he did? The imperial troops didn't choose to start the war, most of Dimitry's killings were on the ground nobodies and Dimitry was known to take his time with them that he became known as the "one-eyed demon."

Well they choosed to become soldiers. The lust inside the empire to become great (in the sense of size) again was widely known. And if you invade another country you cant blame the local inhabitants that they try to kill you. I get the whole torture part that might be considered evil but the killing is definetly not morally grey or anything but quite logical in his situation.

And again, the agressor was Edelgard and the empire - not dimitri and the kingdom.

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