What are your thoughts on Edelgard? *SPOILERS*

[Landmaster]

24 minutes ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

1) To be fair, everyone just watched Rhea have a breakdown and turn into a literal rage dragon (talking about right after the split). And she needed to issue SOME kind of statement on how light just rained out of nowhere to wreck a city, so might as well blame it on your (public) enemy.

2) It wasn't "right in front of you" they were on a different front of the fighting, and I get the impression it's partly her personality but more because the game wants to keep moving (I and many others got the impression CF was at least partly rushed)

3) Taking over the Kingdom and Alliance won her lots of points in the Empire, where those two nations are seen as merely dissident rebels who should be under the Empire. And again, she's not one to dwell on things, and not one for public displays of emotion. "We must appreciate and honor their sacrifice" is about as much as you should expect from her personality, especially with the story more interested in moving on.

4) Uh? TWSITD basically engineered her in the first place, mitigated her father's influence, killed the previous King of Farghus, and have been keeping tabs on her all along. It's made clear they have the edge over her in influence and firepower and she's basically their puppet trying to cut loose without getting killed. Arianrhod's fate and Hubert's paralogue both make it clear TWSITD have an absurd edge in technology and magical power and the fact Arundel is clearly one of them (and he's basically running a good chunk of the Empire) means she can't NOT work with them.

5) Edelgard's bad decision making is actually a whole lot more rational if you consider the idea that TWSITD have a hefty amount of control over her. She needs the Empire on HER side (since most people don't know about TWSITD, her winning the war puts the people on her side), and TWSITD were aiming her at the Church in particular since they are long-time enemies of the church. She SHOULD have talked to others, in particular Claude would have listened and Dmitri almost certainly if she revealed TWSITD were behind the Tragedy of Duscur, but this is more her paranoia/distrustful nature, and the fact nobody caught on the Monica being Kronya and Tomas being Solon and Jeritza being the DK certainly didn't help that considering you never know who might be a TWSITD spy. Her main issue is that she doesn't feel she can trust anyone besides Hubert (and possibly Byleth) and that pretty much limits her options to working with her puppet masters.

I still disagree, she could have left it saying she didn’t know what the Pillars of Light were. Again I’m not saying her lying is some grand horrible thing in terms of the story, it makes perfect sense in terms of the story. I’m saying why I didn’t like it as it relates to her as a character.

Yes it was? She is talking directly to Randolph as he’s taking his last breaths. Yes, the whole route is rushed and I know that’s her personality, but for all that I was being told that her route “humanized her”, this scene did not give me that impression and that’s why I brought it up.

It very may well have won her points in the Empire. Doesn’t change my perspective on the fact that it doesn’t make her actions seem any more justified. And I never said she had to dwell on anything for more than the end of that very cutscene. As I mentioned before, I was looking for something that humanized her and I didn’t get it.

I disagree that she’s their puppet. They may have an advantage, but she’s clearly not powerless and has say in what directions they take for most of Part I. If she was as powerless as you suggest, they would be pulling the strings over her and that’s clearly not the case. It's Edelgard herself who wants to take over the Kingdom and the Alliance and rule over everyone under a single Empire. 

Like I said, I don’t see her as having that much less power than them. Clearly they can act without her order, but she’s not completely helpless and has the capacity to act on her own, too. Whether or not she talked about it to the other Lords is irrelevant to me. Edelgard herself does not convince me that anything she does is worth following, that’s the problem I have with her.

[CyberNinja]

10 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

I still disagree, she could have left it saying she didn’t know what the Pillars of Light were. Again I’m not saying her lying is some grand horrible thing in terms of the story, it makes perfect sense in terms of the story. I’m saying why I didn’t like it as it relates to her as a character.

"I don't know" said Edelgard

"it's the rage of the goddess just like Ailey!" Screamed her soldiers

mass desertions sprang up amongst the imperials, morale plummeted and civil discord spread throughout her territories as the news spread, the knights resurged with vigor and met her armies head own, aided by the faithful. Former priests regained their faith and moved to strike down the apostate. Edelgard and Byleths corpses to the archbishop who smiled serenely knowing the goddess so this, her mother was ever at her side.

 

an exaggeration to be sure, but can you please come up with a better reason than that if you're going to complain.

[Landmaster]

4 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

an exaggeration to be sure, but can you please come up with a better reason than that if you're going to complain.

No? The thread is to give my thoughts on Edelgard, I'm giving my thoughts on Edelgard. Sorry if my reasons for disliking certain things about her aren't to your liking.

[Tenzen12]

51 minutes ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

 

4) Uh? TWSITD basically engineered her in the first place, mitigated her father's influence, killed the previous King of Farghus, and have been keeping tabs on her all along. It's made clear they have the edge over her in influence and firepower and she's basically their puppet trying to cut loose without getting killed. Arianrhod's fate and Hubert's paralogue both make it clear TWSITD have an absurd edge in technology and magical power and the fact Arundel is clearly one of them (and he's basically running a good chunk of the Empire) means she can't NOT work with them.

Of course she could work without them. She planned have her unification war before she allied with them and she was actually against working with them until Hubert convinced her otherwise. Would she fail without their support? Very likely. Doesn't change it was her choice and TWSitD were later add on.

[CyberNinja]

6 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

No? The thread is to give my thoughts on Edelgard, I'm giving my thoughts on Edelgard. Sorry if my reasons for disliking certain things about her aren't to your liking.

It was a request so you're free to deny. The point being that saying she "could have said nothing" is neglecting that she's at war and actually need to care for morale.

[dragonlordsd]

3 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Of course she could work without them. She planned have her unification war before she allied with them and she was actually against working with them until Hubert convinced her otherwise. Would she fail without their support? Very likely. Doesn't change it was her choice and TWSitD were later add on.

I don't think this is true, and I don't think there's any evidence for that.

Unless you can provide some in game source that says that, I have to object.

According to the actual facts in the game, Edelgard was working with TWSitD before she came to the monastery, not after.

[Etrurian emperor]

1 hour ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

Uh? TWSITD basically engineered her in the first place, mitigated her father's influence, killed the previous King of Farghus, and have been keeping tabs on her all along. It's made clear they have the edge over her in influence and firepower and she's basically their puppet trying to cut loose without getting killed. Arianrhod's fate and Hubert's paralogue both make it clear TWSITD have an absurd edge in technology and magical power and the fact Arundel is clearly one of them (and he's basically running a good chunk of the Empire) means she can't NOT work with them.

I wouldn't say Edelgard is their puppet. She's got far too much of a free reign to be a puppet. They are allies but you never really see the Slitherers dominating Edelgard nor do they force or trick her into doing something she wouldn't do when on her own devices. 

Their conversations do not at all seem like a conversation between puppet and puppeteer. Edelgard isn't meek nor does she grind her teeth and take their abuse. She and Arundel make such obviously veiled threads at each other that's its practically an open secret that they are scheming against each other.

42 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

tl;dr, She has to know her decisions will lead to nobility to band as a class against her to preserve 'their' system

Its sadly not really addressed but Edelgard probably has a pragmatic side about her plans for the nobility. NPC's make it a point to mention she keeps count Bergliez in his current position and according to Linhardt his father as well as count Bergliez struck some sort of alliance with Edelgard quite some time ago. 

[Tenzen12]

 

2 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

I don't think this is true, and I don't think there's any evidence for that.

Unless you can provide some in game source that says that, I have to object.

According to the actual facts in the game, Edelgard was working with TWSitD before she came to the monastery, not after.

Hubert literally said so. When he explained to Byleth why they work with them.

And yes both her decision defeat church and unificate Fodlan as well as borrowing TWSitD power were made before she came to monastery. There is no argument about that.

[Landmaster]

8 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

It was a request so you're free to deny. The point being that saying she "could have said nothing" is neglecting that she's at war and actually need to care for morale.

I already said her answer makes perfect sense considering the situation. 

[dragonlordsd]

7 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I wouldn't say Edelgard is their puppet. She's got far too much of a free reign to be a puppet. They are allies but you never really see the Slitherers dominating Edelgard nor do they force or trick her into doing something she wouldn't do when on her own devices. 

Their conversations do not at all seem like a conversation between puppet and puppeteer. Edelgard isn't meek nor does she grind her teeth and take their abuse. She and Arundel make such obviously veiled threads at each other that's its practically an open secret that they are scheming against each other.

These are not contradictions. Simply because she does not simper or cringe at them does not make her any less of a tool in their hands.

If you want to make this point, could you provide evidence of times when she manages to force them to do something for her? Or a time when they order her to do something and she refuses, and gets away with it? I don't think their are any good examples, but if I'm wrong correct me.

Because if not, well, that's a puppet by any definition.

@Tenzen12 Whoops, you're right. Misread your comment.

That said, Hubert never said she was working against them, as far as I can remember. He said he hated them and wanted to destroy them, but (again) as far as I can remember, he didn't say that. Which conversation is this, and can you link to a write up/video?

Edited August 26, 2019 by dragonlordsd

[Tenzen12]

She orchestrated death of both Cornelia and Solon. If she is puppet (and I actually agree she is), it is The Chucky.

[dragonlordsd]

2 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

She orchestrated death of both Cornelia and Solon. If she is puppet (and I actually agree she is), it is The Chucky.

You are not wrong, certainly.

I mean, to be clear, I think she absolutely intends to destroy them at some point. I don't think there's any question of that.

I think her problem is that A) she's not really unifying Fodlan, she's actually doing exactly what they want, and B) She would not survive to see her goals through.

Like, here's the thing, everyone's saying, "she's using them" which, yes, but who's getting more use out of who? That's the real question.

Edited August 26, 2019 by dragonlordsd

[Tenzen12]

In theory they are using each other. Practically all her action are result of TWSitD indoctrination, well except that part when she try kill them. But they are more or less fine with that as they understimate her.

Anyway back to other part of topic. I can't provide you with exact place without playing it again/rewatching whole thing, which is not something I want do. But Hubert did said he was one that  convinced Eldegard to work with them as he believed they can't get their goal done without borowing their power and she was very against it originally. Once I encounter that part I will put it here.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Tenzen12

[dragonlordsd]

17 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

In theory they are using each other. Practically all her action are result of TWSitD indoctrination, well except that part when she try kill them. But they are more or less fine with that as they understimate her.

Anyway back to other part of topic. I can't provide you with exact place without playing it again/rewatching whole thing, which is not something I want do. But Hubert did said he was one that  convinced Eldegard to work with them as he believed they can't get their goal done without borowing their power and she was very against it originally. Once I encounter that part I will put it here.

I appreciate that.

I'd like to start a push for sourcing information, even though I know it's a serious hassle for people, but I have two good reasons for this:

1. A ton of scenes are tough to actually see. Some depend on you recruiting characters, others depend on you not recruiting characters, to the extent that I don't think you can safely assume the other person has seen the same things you have. There are four routes in this game, with a ton of permutations, so two people may have seen completely different versions of scenes. A lot of Blue Lions players, for example, absolutely hate Edelgard, but they haven't played her path.

2. Some quotes are just getting misquoted or misrepresented.

[Etrurian emperor]

1 hour ago, dragonlordsd said:

These are not contradictions. Simply because she does not simper or cringe at them does not make her any less of a tool in their hands.

If you want to make this point, could you provide evidence of times when she manages to force them to do something for her? Or a time when they order her to do something and she refuses, and gets away with it? I don't think their are any good examples, but if I'm wrong correct me.

Because if not, well, that's a puppet by any definition.

@Tenzen12 Whoops, you're right. Misread your comment.

That said, Hubert never said she was working against them, as far as I can remember. He said he hated them and wanted to destroy them, but (again) as far as I can remember, he didn't say that. Which conversation is this, and can you link to a write up/video?

Is Edelgard a tool in their hands or are they a tool in hers? Probably both. They each oppose the church for their own personal, separate reasons and they use each other to get the job done before turning on each other. 

The deal between Edelgard and the Slitherers seems more an alliance than one party controlling the other. Neither is shown to be particularly subservient to the others. For Edelgard to be a puppet she needs to be subservient to them but I never saw that to be the case. We don't have a scene with them giving Edelgard orders. We do have scenes of Edelgard and Arundel not so subtly threatening each other. The worst weakness Edelgard showed was to just shrug it off when she heard Arundel was acquiring alliance relics. 

There aren't any scenes of Edelgard refusing orders but there are also never any scenes of her receiving orders from them either. Or at least not in the Eagle path where most of their interactions are taking place. 

As for your last point. Its not really my place to answer since you asked Tenzen but the scene you're looking for is the cutscene before the battle of Myrdin bridge. Hubert pulls Byleth aside and tells them they're working with the Slitherers. He then says Edelgard hates them for what they did to her and her father, and that it pained her to agree to the alliance. In his paralogue he does state that killing them off will fall to him and not to Edelgard. 'Lady Edelgard's war will be over and house Vestra's war will begin''. However Hubert still does that in her name and presumably on her direct orders. With Edelgard threatening her uncle and orchestrating Cornelia's murder I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case.

[Altrosa]

Jumping in quite late here, but it is interesting to me that those of us play the Blue Lions route first generally dislike Edelgard from how it puts the blame of so much more of the bloodshed and trauma inflicted on Edelgard’s machinations verses her being a cog in a much bigger and nastier war machine that she’s trying to navigate out of in her own path. 

 

The pieces we BL players are missing slots Edelgard in a much worse position, but even knowing how her path goes, I think she went about everything the exact wrong way, though I totally understand WHY she did it her way. Despite having some sound justifications for wanting to unify Fodlan and wanting to remove the crests, she was unwilling to sacrifice herself for the greater good, despite being willing to sacrifice practically anything else for peace. She still wanted Adrestia to rule after seeing that wicked coup strip her family of power, and had resentment over the Kingdom and Alliance existing. 

 

Honestly, Edelgard’s probably the best part of Three Houses even if she’s completely villainous. 

 

 

[CmdrQuartz]

I think Edelgard suffers from a bad route. Like during play testing people asked why they couldn't join Edelgard and the devs went "Oh!... I guess that could technically be an option..." and so her route got the least amount of development time.

I definitely wanted to join Edelgard because I hoped to steer her away from being a Daenerys(sp) and turning into an insane ruler. I got some of that feeling when giving the choice to let Claude live or not. I'm sure that without Byleth, Edelgard would have just killed him without question. Certainly wish there could've been more choices like that. Like sparing Dimitri or heck maybe even Rhea at the end, but perhaps there was a lack of time to flesh out those options.

The other reason I chose Edelgard is because I saw Rhea as an over-zealous religious nut-bag that probably did need taken down. Her supports are creepy and her treatment of people is bordering on, if not outright, sociopathic. So when I recognized that Rhea brought us down to the tomb with the sole expectation that we become Sothis I was pissed thinking "B**** I AM (basically) Sothis now!". So there was some real vindication in my choice when she goes dragon and screams about ripping my heart out.

Which I suppose in the same way as others makes it hard for me to imagine ever taking Rhea's side. Will her route humanize her in my eyes? Or like perhaps some here, will I be forever jilted towards Rhea like they are towards Edelgard? Because while I agree Edelgard's route could have done more to portray Edelgard better I still felt justified in picking the path. The crest system and the church were flawed, don't think I've seen anybody defend it, and I don't think Rhea would ever allow those systems to be dismantled without war. I still have three routes to play though so we'll see.

[dragonlordsd]

8 hours ago, Altrosa said:

The pieces we BL players are missing slots Edelgard in a much worse position, but even knowing how her path goes, I think she went about everything the exact wrong way, though I totally understand WHY she did it her way. Despite having some sound justifications for wanting to unify Fodlan and wanting to remove the crests, she was unwilling to sacrifice herself for the greater good, despite being willing to sacrifice practically anything else for peace. She still wanted Adrestia to rule after seeing that wicked coup strip her family of power, and had resentment over the Kingdom and Alliance existing. 

Honestly, Edelgard’s probably the best part of Three Houses even if she’s completely villainous. 

 

Well, also keep in mind that there are things Blue Lions players have seen that Black Eagles players have not.

Like, a number of people still don't believe that Edelgard would actually 

Spoiler

Set Bernadetta on fire

But that absolutely happens in Blue Lions route.

[Water Mage]

One thing about the TWSITD/Edelgard alliance that I don’t understand is who approached who first. Did Edelgard approach them or was it the opposite? I know Hubert sees them as a necessary evil, but at the same it seems that he’s looking for the first excuse to get rid of them, so I can’t say for sure that it could have been his idea either.

[daisy jane]

1 hour ago, dragonlordsd said:

Well, also keep in mind that there are things Blue Lions players have seen that Black Eagles players have not.

Like, a number of people still don't believe that Edelgard would actually 

  Reveal hidden contents

Set Bernadetta on fire

But that absolutely happens in Blue Lions route.

someone told me that and I was like. wait. What? when would that happen. 

 

Spoiler

but i always recruit bernadetta. so it never occurred to me that Rando-Archer person - is actually Bernie if you don't recruit her. I had to watch it and Edelgard is all. "nice Sacrifice, BERN!". Cow. 

I guess  - my ultimate question is this. 
I understand and get that Edelgard wants to end nobility (as it is) based on the crests. 

but how was she going to eliminate the crests? 
Crests are in the blood. Hanneman  (and others, like Ingrid) - that crests just pop up. So. i mean it's somewhere deep in the DNA. so.what? is she going to go all Pharaoh and throw all the crest babies in a river or something? The war (on her end) eliminates the nobility but not the deeper issue for her which is the removal of crests.  

[Flere210]

I think that she put crestology professors at work untill they find a way to remove them and then forcefully remove them from the kids.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Flere210

[MrPerson0]

18 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

And students' reaction also seems to show that such ruthlessness isn't ingrained in Fodlan's culture (old times executions were in part as gruesome as they were because it was supposed to be a spectacle for the crowd).

The students' reactions really should be taken with a grain of salt because they believed that the Western Church weren't really trying to kill Rhea (especially people like Ashe). Only we (and the house leader) saw the Western Church admit such a thing.

[dragonlordsd]

3 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

The students' reactions really should be taken with a grain of salt because they believed that the Western Church weren't really trying to kill Rhea (especially people like Ashe). Only we (and the house leader) saw the Western Church admit such a thing.

This is another aspect that I feel gets overlooked.

A lot of people use Rhea's destruction of the western church as "evidence" of her imposing an oppressive religious system, but the evidence in the game shows that Rhea really doesn't care whether you believe in her religion or not. Shamir, Jeralt, and others within the freakin' knights of serios openly question the goddess, and Rhea's totally cool with that. What Rhea objects to (at least, she says) is people actually killing her own followers.

A lot of people respond with "well, you can't believe what she says" but... the evidence in the game looks otherwise.

[Hardric62]

27 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

 

A lot of people use Rhea's destruction of the western church as "evidence" of her imposing an oppressive religious system, but the evidence in the game shows that Rhea really doesn't care whether you believe in her religion or not. Shamir, Jeralt, and others within the freakin' knights of serios openly question the goddess, and Rhea's totally cool with that. What Rhea objects to (at least, she says) is people actually killing her own followers.

 

Well, yes, but at the same time, they are also personally pledging fealty to her by that point, so at that point how pious they are becomes kinda irrelevant, they are already serving her personally.

Also, I saw some people saying that the Rhea hasn't been really doing anything against the Western Church before the game's events, but in all the bitching and moaning of these guys after they are caught in the Tomb, one of them complains that Rhea already killed 'many' of their fellows that way. Not going to hazard how... well, many he means, but it also seems clear to me that Rhea hasn't been sitting on her hands regarding the Western Church so far, which makes you wonder how that whole mess can have been lasting that long when the Knights can settle it in less than a year starting from when you appear.

[MrPerson0]

33 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

This is another aspect that I feel gets overlooked. 

A lot of people use Rhea's destruction of the western church as "evidence" of her imposing an oppressive religious system, but the evidence in the game shows that Rhea really doesn't care whether you believe in her religion or not. Shamir, Jeralt, and others within the freakin' knights of serios openly question the goddess, and Rhea's totally cool with that. What Rhea objects to (at least, she says) is people actually killing her own followers.

A lot of people respond with "well, you can't believe what she says" but... the evidence in the game looks otherwise. 

Another thing people overlook is the Church tries to ignore the difference between nobility and commoners, and puts everyone on equal footing (mentioned by Seteth near the beginning of the game). However, the nobles who are in the church still put up fight in order to get better services over the commoners, so this already goes against Edelgard's belief that the Church supports the nobility.

3 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

one of them complains that Rhea already killed 'many' of their fellows that way.

I assumed that this was in reference to the Lonato incident.

Edited August 27, 2019 by MrPerson0