[Spoiler!] Why I think Edelgard is amazing not as a waifu, but as a heroin

[matchalatte]

To the contrary of many players' views, I think Edelgard is perhaps too matured, too composed, and too machiavellian for her age, but ultimately the (anti) heroin of the game and an amazing character for JRPGs. It is quite clear that the ultimate villain in the game is in fact TWSITD, i.e. those who slither in the dark. So it is quite extraordinary that she chose to side (and put up) with TWSITD, the hideous group that is responsible for her own misfortune and misery and various atrocities (at least from the perspective of the status quo), in order to uproot the church/crest system and to ultimately defeat TWSITD. She recognizes correctly between the church and TWSITD, the church the is correct enemy to target first, which is not obvious if you think about it (TWSITD has experimented on her, and Rhea san is so nice). Let me explain.

From the little cutscene after Byleth decides to join with Edelgard as the witness of her secret coronation, we can see clearly that Edelgard's power within the Empire is rather precarious: her father is weak and powerless (who confessed his powerless to her in a touching little conversation), the prime minister seems surprised and abhored at the coronation, suggesting that administrative power within the empire belongs to the opposition (since coronation is done in secrecy). What better way to consolidate her power within the empire than by waging an epic war to reunify and reclaim all of Fodlan, the territory that are historically ruled by the empire but then carved up by the church in a conspiracy which eventually covering up the whole history? And of course,  to completely eliminate the crest system that has festered the nobles and commonfolks alike?

If she choose to side with church in order to battle TWSITD, her position within the empire would almost certainly be jeopardized by her uncle Arundel (suggested as the other major power within the empire) since it is heavily suggested that Arundel=Thales. In fact, Arundel even 'backstabbed' her as a retaliation move in the BE route after her went out to take the fortress in the Kingdom. Hubert's paralogue also shows that El operates under the shadow of Lord Arundel/TWSITD (to do their dirty work and under their constant scrutiny) but El is also trying to sabotage TWSITD from within. Considering her status as the heir of the Empire, the Empire is the single greatest source of political and military power to El. Therefore, she simply cannot cooperate the church first before she gain a foothold within the Empire.

Moreover, by closely working with TWSITD, El is able to gather important intels that would ultimately contribute to topple the mighty TWSITD either by force (In Hubert's paralogue he obtain a secret weapon with advanced tech) or espionage (In GD route Hubert gave Claude the biggest tip of the game - the location of TWSITD's secret base) or politcal purge (possible since TWSITD has long infiltrated the empire's ruling class as suggested by Arundel=Thales). So if you really think about it, it is not crazy to imagine that without El somehow working as an undercover, the ultimate villain with super advanced technology cannot be defeated by the other house leaders (clearly the church has not been effective dealing with them).

Finally, the possibility of a peaceful gradual reform of the church seems unlikely, given how the game portraits the church. The church has been brutally cracking down other factions (heretics/dissident) within the church and essentially controls the knowledge/thought by censoring history and books (suggested by Linhardt, Hanneman, Setech's support). There is essentially no internal political opposition within the church that can challenge Rhea, who, despite appearing to be benevolent, is overly sensitive about power and is obsessed with ressurecting Sothis. Therefore, it is unlikely that without El shaking up the situation , Claude would have any opportunity to peacefullly transition Fodlan into a multicultural open society governed by a republic/democratic system.

Now if you buy any of this, then you realize how amazing El really is as a leader/conqueror (within the context of the setting of course), who is not only unwavering in her determination but also has the wits and guts to work with those she fundamentally hate with aplomb, and to do necessary evil and sacrifice her own conscience for a clear, lofty political goal (which can be bad but seems good enough according to the game's ending narration). Especially if you observe how she interacts with members of TWSITD and how she kept cool in the early half of the game. El also handles her relation with Byleth in a stunning way. It is suggested in a scenes (prior to the naming of Black Eagle Strike Group) that Hubert and El knows that the professor is an important allied to win over but she kept being direct and engaging with the Byleth without ever appearing insincere or manipulative. She opens up to Byleth as a troubled girl (not surprising given her childhood) as well as a lonesome ruler/conqueror but always keep enough distance to retain authority (that is, until the war is won and you S ranked her, but before that creepy art ). 

As for her underhanded and treacherous deeds, I think they are mostly justified for the following reasons. 1. you need to take into account that she was preparing to fight a war against a theocracy that has governed almost a thousand years, a secret cult that has nukes and robots in a medieval period, and the kingdom and alliance. Conspiracy is perhaps the least costly (let's be realists, I know that human life cannot be measured) way to achieve the objectives of her war. 2. it is unlikely that the idea of universal human rights exist in Fodlan (certainly not international conventions which is getting less useful nowadays anyway). 3. they are tame by historical standard, by which i mean the one that I am farmiliar with: various East Asian histories such as the three kingdom period and sengoku period, history of roman republic and roman empire, and WWII and the Cold War period etc. 4. It is tricky to a moralist when it comes to relations between big political powers and I think we overestimate ourselves by thinking we can be do better than historical figures in their circumstances. I admit that some of her acts (assassinating Claude/Dimitri, kidnapping Flayn) are definitely questionable by today's moral standard but I have read enough history to give her a pass.

I know I sound like an Edelgard apologist, but please don't hate me 😛.

[Yexin]

i think edelgard is the character i hate the most in the whole fire emblem series

this is probably because that was her character's purpose, so this could mean she's well written (and i don't doubt she is)

Edited August 7, 2019 by Yexin

[Michelaar]

The fact that she hired freaking bandits to kill Dimitri and Claude already makes it impossible for me to see her in a heroic light.

[Spatha]

Edelgard is one hell of a drug, that is true. Whether she's justified or not regarding her actions, she's quite the compelling character.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Spatha

[Tenzen12]

If she was even half as smart as she think  she would team With church and use TWSitD as bargaining chop to get what she want. 

Alas because Theles indoctrinated her too well, she never figured what's wrong with Fodlan. 

[timon]

As I said in another discussion, when the Edelgard topic comes up we must remember that, much like Rhea, her characters changes greatly depending on the route you take.

Both Rhea and Edelgard are very close to Byleth, the fact that s/he sides with or against them changes their experience and thus their personalities. Empire route Edelgard is sane and mostly rational, even has some sweet sides, she effectively becomes a revolutionary hero, in the meantime Rhea literally goes crazy. On the other hand I imagine if you side with the Church the opposite happens, with Rhea keeping her head in place and Edelgard losing rationality because she's basically fighting alone.

You can't really discuss her as one character, at least not after the timeskip. That said, we can argue about methods, but I hope no one is actually disagreeing with her goals, I mean she wants an objectively better society.

[Tenzen12]

That's not her only goal though and her other goals are significantly less praiseworthy. 

Anyway saying Rhea and Eldegard are same is inaccurate: default Eldegard is  same as Rhea at her worst. That's putting it in right context. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Tenzen12

[dragonlordsd]

2 hours ago, matchalatte said:

I know I sound like an Edelgard apologist, but please don't hate me 😛.

Lol, it's all good, you're entitled to your opinion.

That said, my counterpoint would be this:

Spoiler

A lot of your argument is based on the "this was necessary" premise. Which I actually accept. That said, there's some other stuff to consider, such as Ramire village. It's mentioned that this isn't the first time such a thing has happened. Now, you can say that TWISTD did that without Edel's consent, which is fair. But what WAS Edel's decision was sending the death knight to wipe out the entire village, which... dang. I don't see quite how that falls under the blanket of "necessary".

But even moving past that, we then get to the demonic beasts, which are kidnapped people that are transformed into monsters, and she is perfectly happy to use them, which, again, dang. While she may or may not have approved of their creation, she's perfectly willing to use them to slaughter her enemies, and again, I have to ask, how is that "necessary?"

Idk, what do you think?

 

[timon]

24 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

That's not her only goal though and her other goals are significantly less praiseworthy. 

Anyway saying Rhea and Eldegard are same is inaccurate: default Eldegard is  same as Rhea at her worst. That's putting it in right context. 

Rhea has literally been manipulating the whole continent, predating on people's faith for God knows how long. You're right, they're not on the same level, Edelgard has also some qualities.

[Tenzen12]

She has almost no involvement with internal politic of either country and acted mostly as arbiter. 

She lied about 10 elites, but that sounds like good idea anyway. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Tenzen12

[Vyniea]

1 hour ago, timon said:

As I said in another discussion, when the Edelgard topic comes up we must remember that, much like Rhea, her characters changes greatly depending on the route you take.

Both Rhea and Edelgard are very close to Byleth, the fact that s/he sides with or against them changes their experience and thus their personalities. Empire route Edelgard is sane and mostly rational, even has some sweet sides, she effectively becomes a revolutionary hero, in the meantime Rhea literally goes crazy. On the other hand I imagine if you side with the Church the opposite happens, with Rhea keeping her head in place and Edelgard losing rationality because she's basically fighting alone.

You can't really discuss her as one character, at least not after the timeskip. That said, we can argue about methods, but I hope no one is actually disagreeing with her goals, I mean she wants an objectively better society.

Rhea's fall into insanity in the Empire route makes a lot more sense though. Byleth is everything to her, in the most literal of ways. For Edelgard Byleth is just someone she has known for a year who might not even be her main teacher depending on which route you took.

[Nihilem]

40 minutes ago, timon said:

Rhea has literally been manipulating the whole continent, predating on people's faith for God knows how long. You're right, they're not on the same level, Edelgard has also some qualities.

I have heard that quite a few times by now, but do we have any proof that that is true? I have only played BE route until now, but what I have red and seen in that route the only reason why we think of the church is a evil mastermind in the shadows is because Edelgard said so. And I dont think she should be considered a trustworthy source in this regard, because she is remarkebly quick in pointing fingers at the church whenever something bad happens. Just remember when Arianrhod she lied without sweating to the party (ergo all of her friends) claiming that this was the doing of the curch using "forbidden magic" while she knew damn well that her uncle was to blame for it.

 

Because if the church is pulling the stings in the dark, they are doing quite a bad job at it.They didnt know of Edelgards rebellion until her army was literally at their doorsteps, their own branches managed to plan a revolution without them noticing and highranking church members were spies send by at least two of the factions "they are controlling from the shadows" which caughted them completly offguard. ( Ok I know they were connected through the TWSITD, but the church didnt even knew about them until much later in the war).

 

I honestly have a hard time believing that the church controlles the continent in secret while beeing that clueless what is going on on said continent.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Nihilem

[Florete]

>Fire Emblem fans want more grey area with the plot and characters.

>We get that with Edelgard and everyone hates her.

Good write up, but remind me not to read any of the responses.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Edelgard is justified in her actions. The church is an appropriate target. 

 

And while on surface level, she made a tactical/moral error in making enemies of Claude and Dmitri, I think it's easy to see where she is coming from from a basic logistical standpoint. Communication of her motives with these parties opens her up to risk. Given the church's clear and despicable methodology in stamping out dissent and rebellion (instead of reforming/evaluating those aspects of itself that invite these), any word of Edelgard's intention to resist the church would have resulted in her immediate execution before she has the chance to consolidate her power.

 

TWSITD are useful tools. She knows where they stand in regards to the church, and she is able to coordinate with them without the potential for prematurely blowing her cover. The same cannot be said for Claude or Dmitri. 

 

I doubt that she really had another logistical option. Perhaps she could have sent agents into the other houses to gauge for potential allies, but what agents does she really have that are suitable for this role? Hubert? He's inherently distrustful of everyone and is one twirlable mustache and a musical number from being a Disney villain.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Etheus

[Tenzen12]

And what exactly did church wrong?

[Nihilem]

5 minutes ago, Florete said:

>Fire Emblem fans want more grey area with the plot and characters.

>We get that with Edelgard and everyone hates her.

Good write up, but remind me not to read any of the responses.

 

Many make the mistake to see a community as single entity with only one opinion. From my experince i can say that mostly the part of community which did not get the thing it wanted will be the loudest on the internet. Or in your example:

Previously (where we got Mother Therese Lords) the "We want morally grey chars"-Faction was displeased and put their displeasement to the forums. Now they are happy and playing the game. Which lets room for the "Only good guys are good guys" faction to spread their complaints. This is quite natural behaivour on the internet. You can even more easily see that when something in a game is getting easier or harder. The tone on the forums then shifts quite fast from "This is too hard/easy" to the exact opposite.

[Strullemia]

17 minutes ago, Florete said:

>Fire Emblem fans want more grey area with the plot and characters.

>We get that with Edelgard and everyone hates her.

Good write up, but remind me not to read any of the responses.

Eh, I'm still willing to bet that she'll get a very high spot on the next CYL assuming they'll do a fourth one of course.

Not that CYL is a great metric but its the only one we'll have.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Hekselka

[Fabulously Olivier]

Just now, Hekselka said:

Eh, I'm still willing to bet that she'll get a very  high spot on the next CYL assuming they'll do a fourth one of course.

Not that CYL is a great metric but its the only one we'll have.

I'd be very happy with that.

 

Though I'm displeased with their implementation of 3H in Heroes in general. Picking student outfits instead of time skip ones just makes the characters look bland. I can see the appeal for the lords, since post timeskip alts of them would be great legendary fodder. But for all but the most popular students, alts are far less likely, and canon alts nigh inconceivable. 

[Armagon]

3 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:

Anyway saying Rhea and Eldegard are same is inaccurate: default Eldegard is  same as Rhea at her worst. That's putting it in right context. 

Mmm, i get what you're saying but i disagree. Yes, it's true that Silver Snow is the default path if you don't meet the requirements to unlock Crimson Flower (and pretty much the only way to miss this is to actively rush through the game). However, at the end of the day, all four routes are canon. This isn't like Fates where Revelation renders Birthright and Conquest's existence meaningless.

In other words, sane Edelgard and crazy Edelgard are just as canon as sane Rhea and crazy Rhea. It doesn't matter which one's the "default" because they're all canon.

[Captain Karnage]

Really good post OP but unfortunately there's already an Eldegrad discussion topic.

Feel free to copy paste this over there.

https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/88666-what-are-your-thoughts-on-edelgard-spoilers/