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Nerrox

Do people feel that the remakes of the first three games make the originals redundant or obsolete?

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As of now I've played Shadow Dragon, New Mystery of the Emblem, and Shadows of Valentia, and I've done a little research on the games they're remakes of. It seems like Intelligent Systems did an extremely good job of preserving the experience of the old games, and I was wondering what value, if any, people find there to be in playing FE 1-3 over their remakes.

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Yes, I feel they do make them redundant and I played all versions of the games multiple times. The older ones before they had their remakes and I can say for sure that I'm not ever going back to the older versions and their dated mechanics.

I consider them all are superior to the games they revisited.

Some people have issues with Kris or maybe even with Conrad but I am not one of them. 

The only ones I'd maybe reconsider is FE3 because it had a very interesting mechanic for the manaketes that they didn't port over the newer version, sadly. In essence, Tiki could transform into any of the multiple dragons with the appropriate stones outside of battle and she'd keep that form for a few turns, some forms allowing you to fly, others to swim in the water. 

 

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There are a few broken things that they make the older games fun if you want to put up whit the devolish UI. And i think that playing older games is in many way an eye-opening experience.

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FE3 is the only one that could be argued to not be made obsolete because of the inclusion of an Avatar into FE12, which made a good few changes to the story that aren't always taken well.
Shadow Dragon and SoV are basically "the original but better" so yes, they do obsolete them in that case. 

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I haven't played FE1 or 2, but FE3 is by no means redundant. FE3 is antiquated by modern standards, but it is plenty playable, the questionable and tedious design choices (excluding the "quirky" ones) do not outweigh the good.

FE3 has graphics that retain some appreciable quality, the gameplay's quirks are generally fine and in some ways, like the Star Shards boosting growths, good. The soundtrack is actually better than FE12's I'd argue.

12 has a bunch of good points and major QoL improvements, but FE3 is different enough in benign and possibly fun ways that I'd say they're both worth preserving and playing.

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In my opinion, i'd actually rank OG Mystery over the remake. Idk, i just prefer it more. As for OG Shadow Dragon and Gaiden, they bot fall in the "just play the remakes" tier. Though Shadow Dragon DS isn't worth playing in my opinion.

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13 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I haven't played FE1 or 2, but FE3 is by no means redundant. FE3 is antiquated by modern standards, but it is plenty playable, the questionable and tedious design choices (excluding the "quirky" ones) do not outweigh the good.

FE3 has graphics that retain some appreciable quality, the gameplay's quirks are generally fine and in some ways, like the Star Shards boosting growths, good. The soundtrack is actually better than FE12's I'd argue.

12 has a bunch of good points and major QoL improvements, but FE3 is different enough in benign and possibly fun ways that I'd say they're both worth preserving and playing.

To be clear, I'm not talking about abandoning the games altogether. I think they have inherent historical value as snapshots of design decisions of the time and inherent artistic value as all visuals and audio has been updated or changed. However, would you care to expand on what parts of FE3 are superior to FE12?

Edited by Nerrox

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1 hour ago, Nerrox said:

However, would you care to expand on what parts of FE3 are superior to FE12?

Not the same guy but for me, it's mainly the lack of Kris as well as the soundtrack. I prefer the SNES versions of Mystery music and Holy War>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Forbidden Sanctuary when it comes to final map themes.

Artstyle is also another aspect. FE3's artstyle is extremely 90s but it's a lot more pleasing to look at than the DS game's ugly color pallet.

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1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Not the same guy but for me, it's mainly the lack of Kris as well as the soundtrack. I prefer the SNES versions of Mystery music and Holy War>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Forbidden Sanctuary when it comes to final map themes.

Artstyle is also another aspect. FE3's artstyle is extremely 90s but it's a lot more pleasing to look at than the DS game's ugly color pallet.

I liked the DS games character portraits a lot. 

 

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FE3 is a masterpiece, so having an even better remake didn't devalue it much. Amongst others FE3 retains the retro game charm that is rmeoved in FE3 - the comical absurdity of starshards, Staves, and FE3 Chiki is something else that never returned in the series since

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One could make the argument that FE3 still deserves to exist because of how badly FE12 turned out, but I'm not going to be the one to make it; FE3's just that crucial seventeen steps behind in quality of life. The NES games are unplayable if you don't hate yourself, speaking as someone who got about a third of the way through FE2, while 11 is a solid entry in the series and 15 is my child who I will protect with my life.

2 had some merit, I'm not denying that, but it was preserved and expanded upon in 15.

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7 hours ago, Nerrox said:

As of now I've played Shadow Dragon, New Mystery of the Emblem, and Shadows of Valentia, and I've done a little research on the games they're remakes of. It seems like Intelligent Systems did an extremely good job of preserving the experience of the old games, and I was wondering what value, if any, people find there to be in playing FE 1-3 over their remakes.

while they are indeed remakes, they're not exactly the same thing as the originals.

the graphics and music difference is obvious, however the remakes have been changed by adding new mechanics that were not included in the original games, plus there's also new plots and background stories in NM / Echoes that were not present in the originals.

they're more like reinventions, rather than remakes in the true sense of the word(wich is what normally would be considered a remastered version of a game, with better graphics and eventually some reworked features - see Final Fantasy XII: the Zodiac Age).

basicly, each remake is a thing on its own.

 

as for the "value" of playing FE 1-3, it all boils down to the reason of doing so. some people do it because they like retro games, others do it because they're curious about the origins of the FE franchise.

then again, while emulation and fanmade patches solved the language barrier issue, not everyone is willing(or capable) to do so, therefore they're still titles that can be considered "restricted" for some people, in the sense that they were not available for everyone unlike the remakes(NM excluded since it was an exclusive for Japan).

 

overall, i think FE 3 is probably the best retro experience you can get out of the originals, simply because it's overall better gameplay-wise and also has double the content of the original FE 1. it also aged pretty well during the years, as all other SNES titles did, and it feels like playing a GBA game.

i would suggest playing FE 1 only if you're really curious about it and want to see how it all started back in '87, just to gain some gaming culture from the NES days.

otherwise, if you can't really stand clunky gameplay systems, barebone pixel graphics and chiptune music, then it might be better to just avoid it.

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I don't think so. I think FE3 especially is worth playing because FE12 added and changed a lot to book 2, and book 1 is different from FE11.

FE1-2 are a little antiquated but I still think they're worth trying out. With emulation and how relatively easy they are compared to some other entries you shouldn't have much trouble getting through them quickly.

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For the first two, definitely yes.  They're little more than antiques, and were antiquated pretty much as soon as the third game came out.

Mystery of the Emblem is still quality though, mainly Book 2 (Book 1 is essentially Shadow Dragon with a lot of cut content for no good reason).  I'd say it is probably the most quintessential of Fire Emblem games - the base of what Fire Emblem is all about.

Not to mention a lot of people think New Mystery of the Emblem sort of ruined the story of Book 2 by giving the story an avatar along the lines of Robin or Corrin who pretty much steals Marth's spotlight in a number of key moments and whom everyone seems to credit for the victories of the army (even if you have them do literally nothing).

This isn't to say New Mystery doesn't have its merits - I certainly thought it was a high quality game and, even with the avatar implementation, the story still holds up well enough.  I just think it doesn't serve as a complete and total replacement for Mystery of the Emblem.  New Mystery is good if you want a somewhat more modernized FE game, but Mystery is good if you want classic turn-based strategy without the bother of the gimmicks and archaic nature of the NES titles.

Also, let's not forget that you don't get this neat little ditty if you only play New Mystery.  And personally, I prefer the SNES game's soundfont over the newer games remixes (though at the same time, you don't get some of the new songs like Clash of Two Virtues if you play the older games, which I'd say is a fairly substantial loss 'cuz that and some of the other new songs are solid).

8 hours ago, Armagon said:

I prefer the SNES versions of Mystery music and Holy War>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Forbidden Sanctuary when it comes to final map themes.

Eh...

For me personally, I feel like Forbidden Sanctuary probably fit the mood of the Dragon's Altar better, and given that there's not really much to do that map beyond rescuing the maidens and defeating Medeus, a song like Holy War just drums the map up way too much.

Though maybe that's just because the Dragon's Altar/Light and Shadow is a garbage final map.  If I'm able to beat a final map in 2-3 turns without the use of warp staves, you know it's a lame map, and as such it doesn't warrant a song like Holy War which makes it seem like a big deal.  As much as I prefer the War of Heroes (Book 2/New Mystery) over the War of Shadows (Book 1/Shadow Dragon), I feel like the latter has a final map that is so much more interesting - any final map that throws a variety of powerful enemies at you and a unique level layout is quality (even if it can also be cheesed with warp staves, though at least it requires warp staves to be cheesed).  And speaking of, Chosen Ones>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all the other final map themes from the Archanea games.  You can't change my mind.

3 hours ago, Fenreir said:

it also aged pretty well during the years, as all other SNES titles did, and it feels like playing a GBA game.

It feels like playing a GBA game if that GBA game didn't have rescue mechanics, support conversations, or difficulty settings, if it had dismounting mechanics that were forced indoors, and if it made every class only use one weapon (or two if it's a mounted unit) and only have a general weapon rank instead of individual weapon levels.

Though in terms of complexity?  Yeah, it's most in line with the GBA games.  The later SNES games got extremely ambitious, and every game after the GBA titles had quite a few more mechanics.

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11 hours ago, Nerrox said:

To be clear, I'm not talking about abandoning the games altogether. I think they have inherent historical as snapshots of design decisions of the time and inherent artistic value as all visuals and audio has been updated or changed. However, would you care to expand on what factors about FE3 are superior to FE12?

I'm not going to write up a deep analytical litany of things I like in FE3 over FE12, but to name some:

Tiki:

  • In FE12 she is a poor unit, she has poor bases, is locked to 1 range, only average Mov, and Dragonstones have lacking durability. 
  • FE3 Tiki is far better, she might be unable to ever double and will very often be doubled, but that just balances her Def-ignoring 1-2 breath that 2HKOes everything and her high HP and Def stats. Her base stats aren't so shaky, because of how transformation greatly alters her stats, they don't matter. Whereas one could easily deplete all of her Divinestone in 12, in 3, due to the Divinestone only using up one use to transform, and those transformations lasting a minimum of 5 turns, you'd have to make a serious effort try to run out. That Divinestone grants her flight and a little better Move too, buy a Wyvernstone and she'll be cross any map in three-four turns.

 

Musically, some new renditions do continue to hold their water, like that of Hardin's and Medeus's battle themes, they're as good as the originals. Tearing Shadows was a memorable new addition too. But, certain tracks that had punch in FE3, lost it in FE12. My go-to example is "Theme of Love", it isn't necessarily bad, but it diluted the upfront potency of the timeless longing and sorrow of the original in FE12's remix. Another one is "Off to War", the more subdued FE12 version lacks the dramatic direness of FE3 rendition.

 

Marth I think is at his best in FE3B2 as well as a character. I know some people love his Shadow Dragon incarnation and is subtle characterization. But, FE3, and specifically Book 2 because Marth is cardboard hardly more than a silent protag for the majority of Book 1, is my preferred Marth. Why?

latest?cb=20160416083822

"How can you not see why?! What must I do to make it clear to you no matter what?!"

-Seriously, a second facial expression, one that puts actual emotion on Marth's physical person, did a whole lot for me. It's a small thing, but one with an outsized impact, and is a little detail that the DS remakes lacked. Sure, other games got away with only one facial expression (minus closing the eyelids) and it worked for people in conveying their character perfectly, Tellius did for me. But, Marth ended up needing more in my case.

Helping convey Marth better was not just the face, it was partly his words and actions for sure (albeit the Lang rebuke is irresponsible in the moment, until they explain everything was a ploy, Lang/Hardin would have attacked Altea sooner or later). And, I'd chalk it up to the music too, using "Off to War" again, since that happens to coincide with a lot of the "Serious Marth" facial expression. Music can reflect what is happening around the characters in the moment, but it can also reflect what they feel within and choose to express. I would suppose that "Off to War" FE3 casts Marth as being much more concerned than its FE12 descendant.

-I'm not going to delve into Kris or That One Elice Quip (not that she has many). Kris does hurt Marth, but I don't dislike them so much I'd beg for the right to throw dance over the body pouring the dissolving acid if I was part of the plot to murder them. And Elice, if making a poorly worded statement, does have a point- Marth when confronting Medeus in Book 2, criticizes Jagen when suggesting they may have to sacrifice lives to win the day. Albeit, in FE3B2, maybe it comes off more as a stern rebuke by Marth (I think it did for me), and less a "B-But I won't let anyone die!😭", possibly because of that danged extra facial expression.

 

 

...And I ended up being kinda deeply analytical anyhow. 😄

FE12 is a good game though. More enemy variety is point its favor, as is making the Lady Sword not broken. I wish the Star Shards had kept some amount of growths boost though, and that the Starsphere still gave infinite weapon uses.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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25 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Seriously, a second facial expression, one that puts actual emotion on Marth's physical person, did a whole lot for me. It's a small thing, but one with an outsized impact, and is a little detail that the DS remakes lacked.

Hate to rain on your parade, but Marth did have two expressions in the DS games.  He has a slight frown and a smile - basically a gif superimposed over the mouth that's either on the "smile" or "frown" frames.  There's about three distinct frames for either expression, and they are in motion whenever he is "talking".

In fact, all of the characters in the DS have this trait.  Even generic NPCs, even though I'm pretty sure most of them don't ever smile.  Only ones who don't are characters who have their faces covered (the generic soldier portraits) and Medeus in his Dark Earth Dragon form.  Even human-form Medeus has a smile, despite the fact that I don't even think he smiles at all.

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23 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

Hate to rain on your parade, but Marth did have two expressions in the DS games.  He has a slight frown and a smile - basically a gif superimposed over the mouth that's either on the "smile" or "frown" frames.  There's about three distinct frames for either expression, and they are in motion whenever he is "talking".

In fact, all of the characters in the DS have this trait.  Even generic NPCs, even though I'm pretty sure most of them don't ever smile.

My error then. I haven't played SD in like a decade now. And, New Mystery, coming in fourth in my run through 3-6+12 FE first-time emulation spree this year, didn't end up being so memorable.

25 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

Even human-form Medeus has a smile, despite the fact that I don't even think he smiles at all.

I don't think he has every had anything to smile about. He's in four games, one bizarre spin-off, and makes one brief appearance in BS FE, and he can't get one single thing to help his portrayal. I'm sure he couldn't walk into a restaurant without learning they forgot to mark down his reservations with the wait time now 45 minutes, and later he goes to order the daily special, only to be told they're out, as all the nearby tables savor it.

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Personally, I don't like how Michalis can survive in 12. It goes against the point of his character in my mind. The guy hates Marth. He wants Macedon to become the strongest nation on Archanea. I feel as though with his death, he finally repents for his actions by giving Marth the tome to save his sister. Plus, Michalis admits to Minerva that she should speak to Maria. That's the thing I dislike about 12 that 3 does better, IMO. As for Shadow Dragon and Shadows of Valentia, yeah there is no reason to play the originals.

Edited by Syndixel

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9 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't think he has every had anything to smile about. He's in four games, one bizarre spin-off, and makes one brief appearance in BS FE, and he can't get one single thing to help his portrayal.

#Medeusdidnothingwrong #Notalldarkearthdragons #Oscarssohuman

He's not evil, just misunderstood.

2 hours ago, Syndixel said:

Personally, I don't like how Michalis can survive in 12. It goes against the point of his character in my mind. The guy hates Marth. He wants Macedon to become the strongest nation on Archanea. I feel as though with his death, he finally repents for his actions by giving Marth the tome to save his sister. Plus, Michalis admits to Minerva that she should speak to Maria.

At least it's not an obvious recruitment method, and it's easy to miss.

Reminds me of the Spotpass characters in Awakening.  Characters that should've died suddenly being alive and well just so you can extend your waifu wars.  Not really a big fan of that.  And they didn't even have the courtesy to extend that to Boah or Lorenz.

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Personally, I don't think so. Certainly not FE3, for reasons others have already said.

For 1/2 the case is a bit trickier, but I think both still have enough unique quirks and mechanics to be worth revisiting, at least if you're willing to look past the inherent clunkiness of NES RPGs.

Granted I haven't actually played FE1, but I did play FE2 twice, so that has to count for something, right?

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