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FE4 Remake request: Don't balance the game!

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22 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Fun? More like an unceremonious afterthought, given this is the same game that had Sure Strike. Because Snipers needed a sure hit skill despite then being the most accurate class in the game. Bah. Great Shield was pretty lousy in Sacred Stones too, as its activation rate was tied to the enemy's level, and given Sacred Stones's difficulty (or lack thereof)...

For the first several years of me playing FE8 i didn’t even know skills were a thing. The ones in sacred stones are pretty lazy except for Slayer and occasionally Pierce. I don’t think the GBA engine is good for skills. The skills patch for FE8 is awesome but they make sacred stones way easier than it actually is.

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37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, Great Knights have had the weapon triangle since their introduction in Sacred Stones.

Great Knights actually debuted in FE4. They were axe locked.

13 minutes ago, Stephano said:

The ones in sacred stones are pretty lazy except for Slayer and occasionally Pierce.

Slayer is pretty cool, though.

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33 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Great Knights actually debuted in FE4. They were axe locked.

Oh. Of course. I had been thinking about the variant that was also counted as an armored unit.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Galeforce is a level 15 skill, and thus odds are you won't see it until near the end of the game, if at all. Also, Great Knights have had the weapon triangle since their introduction in Sacred Stones.

Its super easy to get to level 15 as a promoted class and infact is recommended to do so before Lucina's appearance as to give to male children.

Bs_fe08_gilliam_general_sword.png

Also that is false, Generals had weapon triangle control there too, entirely unlike Awakening as the developers were smart enough not to give the mounted equivalent everything when being mounted is already such a massive advantage. Even FE4 gave Generals more weapons then the vast majority of mounted classes.

Awakening even made Generals look and animate like a joke, ensuring no one would ever want to be in the class.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

And all it does is cause you frustration there, given that the armored units you get have no practical use.

You just said we are talking about classes and not specific units...

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Fun? More like an unceremonious afterthought, given this is the same game that had Sure Strike. Because Snipers needed a sure hit skill despite then being the most accurate class in the game. Bah. Great Shield was pretty lousy in Sacred Stones too, as its activation rate was tied to the enemy's level, and given Sacred Stones's difficulty (or lack thereof)...

Enemy Mages and magic monsters were often high level giving Great Shield a very high chance of activating. 

And sureshot is no different from Awakening's Pavise or Echoes: Shadows of Valentia laughable heavy armor skill.

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Galeforce is a level 15 skill, and thus odds are you won't see it until near the end of the game, if at all. Also, Great Knights have had the weapon triangle since their introduction in Sacred Stones.

Fun? More like an unceremonious afterthought, given this is the same game that had Sure Strike. Because Snipers needed a sure hit skill despite then being the most accurate class in the game. Bah. Great Shield was pretty lousy in Sacred Stones too, as its activation rate was tied to the enemy's level, and given Sacred Stones's difficulty (or lack thereof)...

End game ? I don't remember having obtained at end game. Mid game at most, or below. No grinding. Awakening is much easier than Sacred Stones.

Yes fun ! No nerf, only fun allowed ! 😄
It's annoying to see game designer nerf something for a so called balance. Great Shield was perfect and fun. Then they decided to nerf everything about it, making it next to useless.
Having %/skill to merely halves damage is already such a hard blow for the skill, so anything else...
 

32 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

And sureshot

Sureshot doesn't exist, it never existed and never will bleh. 😛

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4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Its super easy to get to level 15 as a promoted class and infact is recommended to do so before Lucina's appearance as to give to male children.

How? By grinding or by low-manning?

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Also that is false, Generals had weapon triangle control there too, entirely unlike Awakening as the developers were smart enough not to give the mounted equivalent everything when being mounted is already such a massive advantage. Even FE4 gave Generals more weapons then the vast majority of mounted classes.

Awakening even made Generals look and animate like a joke, ensuring no one would ever want to be in the class.

Sure. The problem is Great Knight was the better option for the one armored knight you got, and Paladin was the best option for the other potential general.

They're still better looking than that game's Berserkers and Snipers.

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You just said we are talking about classes and not specific units...

So what? Doesn't change the fact that the armors in Genealogy have no practical use. For fuck's sake, we're talking about a game where infantry are devalued just because they can't get to the action in a timely fashion; what chance do armors stand of doing anything???

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Enemy Mages and magic monsters were often high level giving Great Shield a very high chance of activating. 

And sureshot is no different from Awakening's Pavise or Echoes: Shadows of Valentia laughable heavy armor skill.

No they weren't, aside from unpromoted cannon fodder that probably aren't a threat at that point.

3 hours ago, B.Leu said:

End game ? I don't remember having obtained at end game. Mid game at most, or below. No grinding. Awakening is much easier than Sacred Stones.

Yes fun ! No nerf, only fun allowed ! 😄
It's annoying to see game designer nerf something for a so called balance. Great Shield was perfect and fun. Then they decided to nerf everything about it, making it next to useless.
Having %/skill to merely halves damage is already such a hard blow for the skill, so anything else...

Lemme guess - you low-manned. Pretty much any FE game is easy if you low-man. Try again. Also, I call B.S. on Sacred Stones being harder.

Nah. I like this.

Personally, I thought it was best in Radiant Dawn, low availability notwithstanding. Speaking of, as much as I like Radiant Dawn, it's kinda obvious something needs to be done when the third tier skills all feel more like Lethality copypastas, albeit with different effects in the (unlikely) event the poor sap on the receiving end survives...

Edited by Shadow Mir

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

How? By grinding or by low-manning?

The game throws random encounters at you all the time.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Sure. The problem is Great Knight was the better option for the one armored knight you got, and Paladin was the best option for the other potential general.

Any class barring the laughable villager was better then General in Awakening.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

They're still better looking than that game's Berserkers and Snipers.

I think few would agree with you that typical barbarian gear or sniper mail is worse then nipple armor and tripping to attack.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

So what? Doesn't change the fact that the armors in Genealogy have no practical use. For fuck's sake, we're talking about a game where infantry are devalued just because they can't get to the action in a timely fashion; what chance do armors stand of doing anything???

You just said earlier we weren't talking individual units, only how well the class itself functioned within the game. You can't change the rules now.

I already mentioned how enemy Generals do their job perfectly and are threatening foes.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

No they weren't, aside from unpromoted cannon fodder that probably aren't a threat at that point.

Unpromoted magic users are high level lategame and still pose a threat to armored units, hence great shield comes in handy, far more then you can ever say for Heavy Armor.

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

So what? Doesn't change the fact that the armors in Genealogy have no practical use. For fuck's sake, we're talking about a game where infantry are devalued just because they can't get to the action in a timely fashion; what chance do armors stand of doing anything???

Isnt this any FE game though? How much use do armors have in Echoes? Compared to DF, they're a joke, not unlike FE4. FE8, why have an armor tank units when Seth is perfectly capable? 

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5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Lemme guess - you low-manned. Pretty much any FE game is easy if you low-man. Try again. Also, I call B.S. on Sacred Stones being harder.

Depends of your definition of low man, if you mean "having the stupid AI throw itself at my most powerful units (which is to say a lot) and granting lot of great level up because the balance is nowhere that is there right from the first chapter". You might be right.
Woe is me for noticing and taking advantage of the poor design and balance that isn't as present in other games am I right ? 😛

On your opinion about Sacred Stones... well I can only respecfully disagree, but consider the following: In SS, you can solo-run with Seth. In Awakening, how many ?

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The game throws random encounters at you all the time.

It's even worse because you get a ridiculous amount of exp no matter what you do. It doesn't help that strategy in Awakening is non-existent.
Then, there's the pair up system that just add even more exp.

Edited by B.Leu

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21 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The game throws random encounters at you all the time.

In other words, by grinding. And if you're grinding, I'd imagine that's what's breaking the game, and not Galeforce. Incidentally, I think the game tends to only really be particularly likely to spawn random encounters if you wait for a long time and/or haven't played in a while.

21 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You just said earlier we weren't talking individual units, only how well the class itself functioned within the game. You can't change the rules now.

I already mentioned how enemy Generals do their job perfectly and are threatening foes.

Who gives a fuck about how enemy generals do? You, yourself, and you? Because that's what it sounds like.

21 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I think few would agree with you that typical barbarian gear or sniper mail is worse then nipple armor and tripping to attack.

Looking like a male stripper is even worse, and something I cannot take seriously. And Snipers are backline units. DO they need that much armor? I think not...

20 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Isnt this any FE game though? How much use do armors have in Echoes? Compared to DF, they're a joke, not unlike FE4. FE8, why have an armor tank units when Seth is perfectly capable? 

That's a good point, but with how big the maps in FE4 are, I'd say they have it much worse there than in other titles. I could find a use for them in some of the other titles due to stuff like rescue or pair up, but in FE4, I'd practically have to routinely slow down for them to do ANYTHING.

18 hours ago, B.Leu said:

It's even worse because you get a ridiculous amount of exp no matter what you do. It doesn't help that strategy in Awakening is non-existent.
Then, there's the pair up system that just add even more exp.

See my first point.

21 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Any class barring the laughable villager and Taguel was better then General in Awakening.

Fixed for accuracy.

21 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Unpromoted magic users are high level lategame and still pose a threat to armored units, hence great shield comes in handy, far more then you can ever say for Heavy Armor.

Problem is, we're talking about Sacred Stones, which is piss easy, so who gives a damn aside from you??? The problem is that the stuff that WOULD threaten armors (promoted magic units, Arch Mogalls, and Gorgons) is stuff I'd be better off keeping them away from in the first place, not to mention being too low level to have even remotely good odds of it kicking in. Oh no, my general is only taking about 9 damage from that random Mogall, whatever shall I do???

Edited by Shadow Mir

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31 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

In other words, by grinding. And if you're grinding, I'd imagine that's what's breaking the game, and not Galeforce. Incidentally, I think the game tends to only really be particularly likely to spawn random encounters if you wait for a long time and/or haven't played in a while.

 

Ah yes, ""grinding" for using what is given on the road like candy by bad design. Sure is grinding, totally my fault for not limiting myself. 😛
Contrast with the Tower of Valni, where grinding is much harder, or battles in Echoes for that matters.

The incidentally part would be fair... if I wasn't already not using it because I was already overleveled.
I think you're missing my poiint, willingly or not I dunno, but Awakening and SS are not the subject of the topic and I kind of feel bad for derailing it so I'll stop. I'm sorry. 😕

49 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Who gives a fuck about how enemy generals do? You, yourself, and you? Because that's what it sounds like.

I thought he subject was how FE4's Enemy Generals do their job, as enemies. Why can't our Generals be the same ?
Kind of lost there

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4 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Ah yes, ""grinding" for using what is given on the road like candy by bad design. Sure is grinding, totally my fault for not limiting myself. 😛
Contrast with the Tower of Valni, where grinding is much harder, or battles in Echoes for that matters.

The incidentally part would be fair... if I wasn't already not using it because I was already overleveled.
I think you're missing my poiint, willingly or not I dunno, but Awakening and SS are not the subject of the topic and I kind of feel bad for derailing it so I'll stop. I'm sorry. 😕

How is the Tower of Valni harder? The first floor has mostly enemies that make Donnel's base stats look amazing (lolrevenants). The issue with Shadows of Valentia is that enemies that roamed on the map could get the drop on you, forcing you into a fight that starts on Enemy Phase.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

In other words, by grinding. And if you're grinding, I'd imagine that's what's breaking the game, and not Galeforce. Incidentally, I think the game tends to only really be particularly likely to spawn random encounters if you wait for a long time and/or haven't played in a while.

The game throws the random encounters at you and the risen often block locations on the map even when you're trying to go straight towards the next map.

58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Who gives a fuck about how enemy generals do? You, yourself, and you? Because that's what it sounds like.

Shadow MIr, you just said earlier, you were discounting the key items given to the player by Arden and Hannibal, only wanting to judge the class itself, not the units within them.

Now you're changing the rules and resorting to rudeness.

58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Looking like a male stripper is even worse, and something I cannot take seriously. And Snipers are backline units. DO they need that much armor? I think not...

Stereotypical barbarian armor is worse then nipple armor built in the shape of a morbidly obese clam that trips over its own feet for attacks?

And Snipers are described as defensive in several games. At least they move in their armor unlike Generals.

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26 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The game throws the random encounters at you and the risen often block locations on the map even when you're trying to go straight towards the next map.

You're not forced to engage Risen in Awakening when you contact them, like was the case when you ran into enemies on the map in Sacred Stones and Gaiden/SoV, the former where one of the shop locations you'd have access to at the point where they first start to appear on the world map has a chance of being blocked by monsters, and the latter of which roaming enemies were a concern for reasons already mentioned.

26 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Stereotypical barbarian armor is worse then nipple armor built in the shape of a morbidly obese clam that trips over its own feet for attacks?

And Snipers are described as defensive in several games. At least they move in their armor unlike Generals.

It still looks stupid as heck compared to, say, the DS Berserker designs.

And I still think it's unnecessary since Snipers are specifically backline units, ergo, they don't need that much armor. If anything, I'd imagine they'd use light armor for the sake of mobility. At any rate, about the only games where I could say Snipers are defensive are the Archanea games, and even then, they're barely any more defensive than Horsemen (putting aside the fact that the originals had stats capped at 20)

26 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Stereotypical barbarian armor is worse then nipple armor built in the shape of a morbidly obese clam that trips over its own feet for attacks?

And Snipers are described as defensive in several games. At least they move in their armor unlike Generals.

And I'd struggle to get use out of the class itself when we're talking about a game with giant maps (like this one!). What part of that don't you understand? Also, what item is Hannibal needed to get? Because I always see comments about Arden and the Pursuit Ring, but comments about whatever item Hannibal is needed to get are rather scarce.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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What enemy general does is irrelevant, because the main reason generals are so bad when used by players is that the class is usually nerfed dor the sake of making the fights againist generals sitting on a 3 def 30 avoid throne fair. They have low speed because otherwise they would have crazy def and avoid on the throne, low res because you may have no units able to phisically damage them and hammer weakness because you may not have trained any mage. 

 

Morale of the story: if you are designing your game around symmetry between player units and enemy units, don't give the enemy an asymmetrical boost that force you to nerf player units for compensation.

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You're not forced to engage Risen in Awakening when you contact them, like was the case when you ran into enemies on the map in Sacred Stones and Gaiden/SoV, the former where one of the shop locations you'd have access to at the point where they first start to appear on the world map has a chance of being blocked by monsters, and the latter of which roaming enemies were a concern for reasons already mentioned.

The game just tosses random encounters at you, of course we're going to mention it.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

It still looks stupid as heck compared to, say, the DS Berserker designs.

And I still think it's unnecessary since Snipers are specifically backline units, ergo, they don't need that much armor. If anything, I'd imagine they'd use light armor for the sake of mobility. At any rate, about the only games where I could say Snipers are defensive are the Archanea games, and even then, they're barely any more defensive than Horsemen (putting aside the fact that the originals had stats capped at 20)

The DS Berserker design was the exception to the rule by having them wear armor. And you not liking them doesn't change that the General design is far worse.

Snipers are more defensive then Berserkers in almost every game. And their defense in Awakening is a respectable 40, the same defense as the armored shield wielding Hero class.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

And I'd struggle to get use out of the class itself when we're talking about a game with giant maps (like this one!). What part of that don't you understand? Also, what item is Hannibal needed to get? Because I always see comments about Arden and the Pursuit Ring, but comments about whatever item Hannibal is needed to get are rather scarce.

That applies to almost every Fire Emblem game, with others like Shadows Of Valentia being even worse. What I don't understand is your claims claims that the powerful items Arden and Hannibal get, as well as their automatic participation, is irrelevant.

Hannibal nets the extremely powerful Berserk staff with Sharlow. The Berserk staff is so powerful, it is considered a major reason for leaving Sylvia unpaired in generation 1. Recruiting him in addition to giving you another way  to get gold from the arena, also allows Corpul/Sharlow to get +3 HP and 100 love points with your their unit.

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

What enemy general does is irrelevant, because the main reason generals are so bad when used by players is that the class is usually nerfed dor the sake of making the fights againist generals sitting on a 3 def 30 avoid throne fair. They have low speed because otherwise they would have crazy def and avoid on the throne, low res because you may have no units able to phisically damage them and hammer weakness because you may not have trained any mage. 

 

Morale of the story: if you are designing your game around symmetry between player units and enemy units, don't give the enemy an asymmetrical boost that force you to nerf player units for compensation.

Here we are discussing it because Shadow Mir insisted that the individual contributions by Arden and Hannibal don't matter, only how the class functions itself.

I agree that Armored units are in desperate need of a buff as few games give them anything helpful. Especially in this age of reclassing, there needs to be a reason for a player unit to want to be an armored class.

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's a good point, but with how big the maps in FE4 are, I'd say they have it much worse there than in other titles. I could find a use for them in some of the other titles due to stuff like rescue or pair up, but in FE4, I'd practically have to routinely slow down for them to do ANYTHING.

Echoes is just as bad as FE4, easily. Your just fishing for a reason to justify it being unbalanced in other FE games. Your argument is "why use an armor?" I dont understand why this applies to only FE4.

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10 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Echoes is just as bad as FE4, easily. Your just fishing for a reason to justify it being unbalanced in other FE games. Your argument is "why use an armor?" I dont understand why this applies to only FE4.

It does have Warp, so armored units aren't completely hopeless there. And what else am I going to use to face down enemy Dread Fighters that I don't have to rely on luck (aka, not getting critted) to survive, considering that you only need to be faster than the opponent to double in said game (and odds are, enemy Dread Fighters are doubling EVERYTHING on your side)??? I'm not looking to justify anything; I'm only stating the facts. Sure, they have issues in other games, but at the same time, most of those other games don't stack the entire deck against armors like FE4 does.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

It does have Warp, so armored units aren't completely hopeless there. And what else am I going to use to face down enemy Dread Fighters that I don't have to rely on luck (aka, not getting critted) to survive, considering that you only need to be faster than the opponent to double in said game (and odds are, enemy Dread Fighters are doubling EVERYTHING on your side)??? I'm not looking to justify anything; I'm only stating the facts. Sure, they have issues in other games, but at the same time, most of those other games don't stack the entire deck against armors like FE4 does.

You only get warp Alm's side with no equivalent on Celica's side and the movement boost of the speed ring completely removed. And you're going to have to grind if you want warp early too.

You use player Dread Fighters, FalcoKnights, or Gold Knights to take out enemy Dread Fighters as they have enough speed to double attack and can actually reach Dread Fighters.

Not only is Heavy Armor worthless and do Barons have zero extra weapons, but Dread Fighters, the only other physical infantry, have a whole extra three whole movement over Barons. There is zero reason you'd ever want to be a Baron or not reclass a Baron in Shadows of Valentia.

Basically when you get down to it, Echoes: Shadows of Valencia stacks the deck far more against Armors. At least FE4 Armors are only 1 movement behind other infantry, have one of the most powerful skills in the game, and can use all physical weapons.

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3 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You use player Dread Fighters, FalcoKnights, or Gold Knights to take out enemy Dread Fighters as they have enough speed to double attack and can actually reach Dread Fighters.

Not only is Heavy Armor worthless and do Barons have zero extra weapons, but Dread Fighters, the only other physical infantry, have a whole extra three whole movement over Barons. There is zero reason you'd ever want to be a Baron or not reclass a Baron in Shadows of Valentia.

This is pretty much the answer to anything in Echoes, which is why I said it's just as bad.

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32 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

At least they are useful early and are the best units to fork, wich is not something that can be said about Arden and Hannibal.

Arden and Hannibal get useful items unlike say Valbar.

Also FE4 was released in the 90s as opposed to the 2010s unlike Shadows of Valentia. IS took a 20 year old game and managed to make it far more unbalanced.

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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What did i miss?

Are we still talking about armor knights? I honestly don't see a way to make armor knights good units in FE4. Arden and Hannibal do get useful items, but i think the class is flawed from the core of the series. My favorite unit in the entire series (Gilliam) is an armor knight and even i will admit he is not that good. However, I would not want FE4 without Arden or Hannibal: Arden because he is funny and its satisfying to get him to a point where enemies just ignore him because he is so strong, and Hannibal for story reasons. I think the best thing they can do for Arden is make it easier for him to level up and give him more funny dialouge options so that he exists in the game for comedic effect. Hannibal is fine as is because there is no way to speed him up without drastically changing the class. Maybe adding more enemy reinforcements that are taylored specifically to Arden and Hannibal so that they would see more use. In ranked play, they see plenty of use but to average players, they are underused. I think anything added for them specifically would be great.

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1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Arden and Hannibal get useful items unlike say Valbar.

Also FE4 was released in the 90s as opposed to the 2010s unlike Shadows of Valentia. IS took a 20 year old game and managed to make it far more unbalanced.

Getting useful items is not a class utility. The high base defence that get transferred trough the fork is. 

I agree that echoes is worse than gaiden when it comes to balance, but at least armors don't "feel" crippled even if they are. Armor Kliff is actually pretty funny to play, even if does not fix the problem.

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20 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Getting useful items is not a class utility. The high base defence that get transferred trough the fork is. 

Using a fork isn't class utility either, at least FE4 Generals have the OP great shield and a whopping four weapons to choose for.

20 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

The high base defence that get transferred trough the fork is. 

You only get TWO forks which isn't even enough for the three Armors you get in Echoes: Shadows of Valentia. There isn't enough to transfer someone to Baron and back.

Barons merely have 5 more defense then Gold Knights in exchange for a giant EIGHT less speed in addition to low resistance in a game where resistance never goes up unless you are Conrad.

Echoes Barons are easily far worse then FE4 Generals.

20 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I agree that echoes is worse than gaiden when it comes to balance, but at least armors don't "feel" crippled even if they are. Armor Kliff is actually pretty funny to play, even if does not fix the problem.

Armors feel much more crippled in Echoes as they have no advantages whatsoever. 

I'd argue General Arden and Hannibal are fun to play, especially as it means having Pavise on your side and being able to use the full weapon triangle+bows.

1 hour ago, Stephano said:

Are we still talking about armor knights? I honestly don't see a way to make armor knights good units in FE4. Arden and Hannibal do get useful items, but i think the class is flawed from the core of the series. My favorite unit in the entire series (Gilliam) is an armor knight and even i will admit he is not that good. However, I would not want FE4 without Arden or Hannibal: Arden because he is funny and its satisfying to get him to a point where enemies just ignore him because he is so strong, and Hannibal for story reasons. I think the best thing they can do for Arden is make it easier for him to level up and give him more funny dialouge options so that he exists in the game for comedic effect. Hannibal is fine as is because there is no way to speed him up without drastically changing the class. Maybe adding more enemy reinforcements that are taylored specifically to Arden and Hannibal so that they would see more use. In ranked play, they see plenty of use but to average players, they are underused. I think anything added for them specifically would be great.

Its actually super easy to make FE4 generals good as I mentioned previously. Even in the base game, Generals are extremely formidable units when movement is overlooked unlike Echoes. Hannibal does a great job holding the line against the wyvern forces in chapter 9.

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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