COVID-19 Discussion & Resources

[grin_fish]

I am a teacher at a childcare center that is part of an HR program for a large company. We remain open because we serve essential workers(doctors, nurses, hospital staff), but the number of children attending is so low that our center is open to everybody not just essential workers' families. They set up a testing center in the parking lot next to us, and it all just feels very surreal.  

I think we will be seeing a lot of really neat online events coming soon.

[eclipse]

3 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

I wonder if there's some sort of targeted campaign on facebook that's telling people that tp's about to run out. That's really the only thing that makes sense to me.

Nah, this is par for the course when it comes to any sort of disaster here (TP/bottled water are always the first to run out).  Our local government announced on the news to get emergency kits ready - which in some people's minds, means "enough supplies until the new year".

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I had heard that people were referring to the coronavirus as "the Chinese virus". Which is, y'know, very racially charged but you can't worry too much about the things people say. Then I found out the ringleader for this awful moniker may be our president: (second tweet, can't seem to un-attach them)

He even opened the conference calling it the "chinese virus". He's clearly adamant about that terminology. Look, I could go on a rant about the implications of attaching ethnicity to objects, or how politicians don't need to be told to watch what they say in a press conference, but what my brain keeps coming back to is "what is wrong with the name 'coronavirus'?". It's not difficult or terribly long to say, it has an abbreviation for written text (COVID). Hell, I'll even admit it sounds cool and threatening, yet doesn't lend itself too well to memes, which is what you want for people to take it seriously.

So the only words of wisdom I'll provide is this: viruses don't care about our human conceptions of ethnicity. But humans do care. Make the right judgment.

[XRay]

32 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

I had heard that people were referring to the coronavirus as "the Chinese virus". Which is, y'know, very racially charged but you can't worry too much about the things people say.

It did originate there though. I think this has more to do with politics than ethnicity/race. Since their government keeps slinging mud our way, I think it is perfectly justified to highlight the origin of the virus. If it was racially motivated, I think the administration would have pursued more rigorous action like deportation or a more generic Asian Ban.

It is no more racially charged than the Spanish Flu in 1918 in my opinion.

44 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

"what is wrong with the name 'coronavirus'?"

There is nothing wrong with it. It is just that scientifically speaking, coronavirus refers to a group or family of viruseses which also includes regular flu viruses. COVID-19 designates the specific kind of coronavirus that we are dealing with now. I think using "coronavirus" is fine, as we have been referring to the flu each year as just "the flu" without specifying which viral strain it is. If people are talking the coronavirus right now, I think there is enough context given the present situation that people are talking about COVID-19.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

It did originate there though. I think this has more to do with politics than ethnicity/race. Since their government keeps slinging mud our way, I think it is perfectly justified to highlight the origin of the virus. If it was racially motivated, I think the administration would have pursued more rigorous action like deportation or a more generic Asian Ban.

It is no more racially charged than the Spanish Flu in 1918 in my opinion.

Spanish flu was a hundred years ago, and the moniker was wrong then since it's point of origin was never confirmed. According to wikipedia, the three most accepted hypotheses are that it originated in the US, France, or China. Nobody thinks it originated from Spain, or Latin/South America. 

Just because we did something wrong before doesn't excuse us from doing it wrong again. Furthermore, just because China says some shit doesn't mean we're honor-bound to retort. We have our fair share of accusations as well, such as the idea that this virus was manufactured and unleashed maliciously on the world. Doctors shouldn't have to stress this is false, but they do. China's only accusation, according to the article you provided, is that our government isn't forthcoming with information. It also claims their dumb comments came in response to ours, so who's really justified here? Racial violence has caught on big in this country in the last few years. Throwing this "Chinese Virus" onto the fire is only going to add to the death toll as some Americans are denied the help they need. Just because people are speaking politically doesn't mean the audience will interpret it as such.

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Glennstavos

[XRay]

8 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Spanish flu was a hundred years ago, and the moniker was wrong then since it's point of origin was never confirmed. According to wikipedia, the three most accepted hypotheses are that it originated in the US, France, or China. Nobody thinks it originated from Spain, or Latin/South America. 

That is true, we are not sure where the Spanish Flu came from.

9 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Just because we did something wrong before doesn't excuse us from doing it wrong again.

In this case, the geography moniker is right though.

10 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Furthermore, just because China says some shit doesn't mean we're honor-bound to retort. We have our fair share of accusations as well, such as the idea that this virus was manufactured and unleashed maliciously on the world. Doctors shouldn't have to stress this is false, but they do. China's only accusation, according to the article you provided, is that our government isn't forthcoming with information. It also claims their dumb comments came in response to ours, so who's really justified here?

They allowed shit to hit the fan with information suppression, steering criticism towards their local governments instead of the central government to protect Pooh Bear and his cult, blaming the United States for not going along with their information suppression, and then had the balls to lie to everyone in the face about how they are leading the world in combating the coronavirus. And this is just on the issue of the coronavirus. I despise Pooh Bear and his pigs governing that country. I have only ill will for those tyrants, and they honestly do not deserve any goodwill from you or anyone else either. I think I will keep my rant to a minimum and end it here.

39 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Racial violence has caught on big in this country in the last few years. Throwing this "Chinese Virus" onto the fire is only going to add to the death toll as some Americans are denied the help they need.

Yes, but the racism in this country right now seems to be mostly directed at Latinos and Muslims, not really Asians. And while Americans are dying right now due to a lack of effective treatment and healthcare, that is due to incompetence, lack of coordination, and downplaying of risks from the Trump administration. I have not heard anything about people intentionally neglecting Asian and Chinese patients and letting them die.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Quote

In this case, the geography moniker is right though.

If geography is the chief concern, you'd think "Wuhan virus" would catch on quicker than Chinese, right? China's big enough to be its own damned continent, but Wuhan specifies a place. You tell me why people focus on the ethnicity and not the place.

7 minutes ago, XRay said:

 

They allowed shit to hit the fan with information suppression, steering criticism towards their local governments instead of the central government to protect Pooh Bear and his cult, blaming the United States for not going along with their information suppression, and then had the balls to lie to everyone in the face about how they are leading the world in combating the coronavirus. And this is just on the issue of the coronavirus. I despise Pooh Bear and his pigs governing that country. I have only ill will for those tyrants, and they honestly do not deserve any goodwill from you or anyone else either. I think I will keep my rant to a minimum and end it here.

Criticisms of the Chinese government are fair and valid, if a little belated to the last year from what I've seen. I won't shame anybody for becoming aware of their wrongdoings due to Pooh Bear memes and through the lens of online video game discourse. But what I will ask is how changing the name to "Chinese Virus" helps us combat the virus? Should Asian Americans take the fall for a regime they don't affiliate themselves with? These are the appropriate questions to ask from an American perspective.

Quote

Yes, but the racism in this country right now seems to be mostly directed at Latinos and Muslims, not really Asians. And while Americans are dying right now due to a lack of effective treatment and healthcare, that is due to incompetence, lack of coordination, and downplaying of risks from the Trump administration. I have not heard anything about people intentionally neglecting Asian and Chinese patients and letting them die.

Stigmatization is the first step. Outbreaks and other crises always lead to xenophobia, even for "model minorities" such as Asians. Coronavirus hate crimes aren't the norm yet, but they're happening. And the world is changing fast due to this pandemic. Will Asian Americans be denied treatment due to their race? Think of it this way: Italy is a country overwhelmed. And their doctors are asked to pick and choose which patients are worthy of care. The decision comes down to highest chance of survival, and highest life-years remaining. Totally utilitarian, hard to argue with. But doctors are humans too, with their own biases and perceptions. If the situation worsens in our own country, I'm sure you can make guesses as to which minorities may be first on the chopping block. I'm not here to fear-monger, I'm just hear to say that racism is not helpful no matter how many Pooh Bear memes you throw at me. Use your head and acknowledge that words carry consequences.

[Shoblongoo]

FYI to anyone having trouble getting groceries right now at their regular stores with the lines and empty shelves: the Asian food markets are fully stocked, just as safe as Walmart and shoprite, and people are quite literally avoiding them like they have the plague. (Went to H-Mart today, and they still had all meats + hand soap and paper towels)

[Ottservia]

Maybe I should stop by 168 some time this week then. I need an excuse to go out and buy some bbq pork anyway

[Johann]

@XRay Naming a disease/virus after locations, people, food, species, cultural things (such as jobs, industries), or generally fear-inciting terms is bad since they're both misleading and stigmatizing. This is the standard set by both the CDC and WHO.

Helpful sources:

• WHO Best Practices for the Naming of New Human Infectious Diseases (pdf)
• CDC COVID-19 -- Reducing Stigma

[eclipse]

The "don't name diseases after people" thing is probably the most questionable out of the table, but that isn't the discussion for this thread.  COVID-19 is the best description - "coronavirus" is more than one type of virus, and "China virus" implies a lot of things that I'd have to warn people for (we're talking warns that start with suspensions).

56 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

FYI to anyone having trouble getting groceries right now at their regular stores with the lines and empty shelves: the Asian food markets are fully stocked, just as safe as Walmart and shoprite, and people are quite literally avoiding them like they have the plague. (Went to H-Mart today, and they still had all meats + hand soap and paper towels)

Would love to, but I'm allergic to damn near all the food they sell (this is a "me" issue, I'm sure their wares are just fine).

[Johann]

2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The "don't name diseases after people" thing is probably the most questionable out of the table, but that isn't the discussion for this thread.

How so? Surely it could tarnish a person's legacy, or affect people who happen to have a similar name.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Johann said:

How so? Surely it could tarnish a person's legacy, or affect people who happen to have a similar name.

I think they're usually named after the people that discover them, or have some connection to it or other, especially if it's the "common" way to describe something.  What's more recognizable, "I've been tested for granulomatous enteritis" or "I've been tested for Crohn's disease"?  Likewise, I THINK this rather pesky virus will stay as COVID-19 (which is easy enough to remember), but if it's named after whoever finds the vaccine, and that person's cool with it, I'll gladly refer to it by that name.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

If geography is the chief concern, you'd think "Wuhan virus" would catch on quicker than Chinese, right? China's big enough to be its own damned continent, but Wuhan specifies a place. You tell me why people focus on the ethnicity and not the place.

Wuhan is very specific, and the city is only recently made famous by the recent pandemic. However, I am not sure if most people even know that city unless they actively consume the news. For the average joe who does not consume a lot of news, they know that COVID-19 comes from China, but they probably could not tell you specifically which province or which city. I have been to Wuhan before and even I do not remember which province it was in without looking it up (it is in Hubei), and I only remember it is around the center of China proper on the map.

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Criticisms of the Chinese government are fair and valid, if a little belated to the last year from what I've seen.

I have mostly held my tongue until I read about them blaming the United States for simply stating the truth in the New York Times. As much as I enjoying bashing Poor Bear and his pig sty, people are dying and I did not think it was the time to bring up politics while they are still trying to save people. Of course, that changed when those ungrateful assholes accused the United States for making things worse by simply stating the truth, and they had to go on a Kim Jong Un-style egotistical trip about how they are a world leader in battling COVID-19 and the United States is being evil.

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

But what I will ask is how changing the name to "Chinese Virus" helps us combat the virus? Should Asian Americans take the fall for a regime they don't affiliate themselves with? These are the appropriate questions to ask from an American perspective.

It does not help nor hamper it in my opinion, and Asian Americans should not take the fall for it. However, I do not think naming it the China virus is going to greatly stigmatize Chinese Americans or Asian Americans. Naming the 1918 flu as the Spanish Flu was a misnomer, but even then, when people hear "Spanish Flu," they do not associate Spain with being a country prone to disease, or at least not now anymore, not sure about back then.

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Stigmatization is the first step. Outbreaks and other crises always lead to xenophobia, even for "model minorities" such as Asians. Coronavirus hate crimes aren't the norm yet, but they're happening. And the world is changing fast due to this pandemic. Will Asian Americans be denied treatment due to their race? Think of it this way: Italy is a country overwhelmed. And their doctors are asked to pick and choose which patients are worthy of care. The decision comes down to highest chance of survival, and highest life-years remaining. Totally utilitarian, hard to argue with. But doctors are humans too, with their own biases and perceptions. If the situation worsens in our own country, I'm sure you can make guesses as to which minorities may be first on the chopping block. I'm not here to fear-monger, I'm just hear to say that racism is not helpful no matter how many Pooh Bear memes you throw at me. Use your head and acknowledge that words carry consequences.

1 hour ago, Johann said:

@XRay Naming a disease/virus after locations, people, food, species, cultural things (such as jobs, industries), or generally fear-inciting terms is bad since they're both misleading and stigmatizing. This is the standard set by both the CDC and WHO.

I guess I will concede on this, but I would not fault others if they choose to use term China virus either unless they are doing so in a racial way. From how I see it so far, the term carries more of a negative political connotation rather than a negative racial connotation. I will change my mind later if it does have more of a negative racial connotation, but for now, I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are primarily using it in a political way.

2 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

FYI to anyone having trouble getting groceries right now at their regular stores with the lines and empty shelves: the Asian food markets are fully stocked, just as safe as Walmart and shoprite, and people are quite literally avoiding them like they have the plague. (Went to H-Mart today, and they still had all meats + hand soap and paper towels)

And for people who are trying to find hand soap, as long as you are using soap, any soap should be okay, according to HuffPost, and they also say there is no clear evidence that antibacterial soap is any better than regular soap either. I am pretty sure that means dish soap, shampoo, bar soap (there are a ton of bar soap in the dollar store when I checked today), laundry detergent, etc. are all A okay.

[Johann]

15 minutes ago, XRay said:

I guess I will concede on this, but I would not fault others if they choose to use term China virus either unless they are doing so in a racial way. From how I see it so far, the term carries more of a negative political connotation rather than a negative racial connotation. I will change my mind later if it does have more of a negative racial connotation, but for now, I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are primarily using it in a political way.

It inherently carries a negative racial connotation. Don't do it, and encourage others to stop if you can.

[XRay]

3 minutes ago, Johann said:

It inherently carries a negative racial connotation. Don't do it, and encourage others to stop if you can.

I prefer to stay neutral on this for now. If people are using it as a way to voice political dissent, I do not think it is right to silence them. If it gets into hate speech and racism territory though, then I will encourage others to stop using it.

[Johann]

1 minute ago, XRay said:

I prefer to stay neutral on this for now. If people are using it as a way to voice political dissent, I do not think it is right to silence them. If it gets into hate speech and racism territory though, then I will encourage others to stop using it.

It's an extremely bad way to voice political dissent, in part because it's racist, and also because it's not clear what you're criticizing. Having a clear message that isn't misunderstood or co-opted (especially by an already racist/xenophobic audience) is incredibly important here.

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Criticisms of the Chinese government are fair and valid, if a little belated to the last year from what I've seen. I won't shame anybody for becoming aware of their wrongdoings due to Pooh Bear memes and through the lens of online video game discourse. But what I will ask is how changing the name to "Chinese Virus" helps us combat the virus? Should Asian Americans take the fall for a regime they don't affiliate themselves with? These are the appropriate questions to ask from an American perspective.

Not to mention the historian in me sees "Chinese Virus", and thinks "this sounds like what they called Chinese/Japanese immigration to America in the late 1800s- the "Yellow Fever"". Nobody but a historian or wise Asian-American aware of their heritage is going to draw the parallel, but I'm still concerned the Coronavirus will revive that xenophobia.

Furthermore, I can see, if everyone were not racist and immune to becoming to some degree racist, I might approve the term "Chinese Virus", since in such an ideal world, nobody would see that term as meaning anything but "virus whose origins lay in China". But, America has: outspoken and public racists, people with less/unspoken nativist inclinations, people with unconscious racial biases, and people vulnerable to xenophobic influence. For the sake of opposing the first, terrible group and keeping the latter three from moving closer to the first, the term "Chinese Virus" must be eradicated.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Interdimensional Observer

[Excellen Browning]

11 hours ago, XRay said:

It is no more racially charged than the Spanish Flu in 1918 in my opinion.

The "Spanish" flu originated in America. The only reason it's called the Spanish flu is because Spanish newspapers were the first to sound the alarm bell. America (and the rest of the entente) was covering it up, rather effectively to boot, considering the censure going on at the time.

Not that it matters. There's a serious uptick in violence against Asians, and this nonsense isn't helping.

[eclipse]

Y'all bring up some damn good points. . .

11 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

Not that it matters. There's a serious uptick in violence against Asians, and this nonsense isn't helping.

. . .though I'd like a source for this, mostly for my own curiosity.

Anyway, this sucker's either "coronavirus" (or some non-mangled spelling of it) "COVID-19", or whatever else the Big Government Health Agencies call it.  I'm going to use my discretion about warning "China virus", but it's probably gonna be a heavy one.

(hey @Johann mind putting a blurb about this in the first post?)

[Zapp Branniglenn]

48 minutes ago, eclipse said:

. . .though I'd like a source for this, mostly for my own curiosity.

Here's a short survey of examples, both of the physical and non-physical kinds. But with a content warning.

Hate crimes are also difficult to distinguish from generic ones since it's not always so clear cut whether there was a racial motivator. Nor is that a regular thing for criminals to confess to since, unlike insanity, it doesn't buy you sympathy from a courtroom. 

[eclipse]

14 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Here's a short survey of examples, both of the physical and non-physical kinds. But with a content warning.

Hate crimes are also difficult to distinguish from generic ones since it's not always so clear cut whether there was a racial motivator. Nor is that a regular thing for criminals to confess to since, unlike insanity, it doesn't buy you sympathy from a courtroom. 

I was looking for actual statistics, instead of individual data points.  Yes, people are going to use this as an excuse to be idiotic racists.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

19 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I was looking for actual statistics, instead of individual data points. 

Well that's sort of what I was getting at. Racism isn't measurable, and it's hard to draw correlations. I wouldn't expect a headline to say "50 reported hate crimes in the last month", since it's so rarely black and white. I think law enforcement may be encouraged, but never required to investigate unprovable motives like that. 

If science can provide a way to measure racism, I propose the metric unit of "Hitlers"

[eclipse]

14 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Well that's sort of what I was getting at. Racism isn't measurable, and it's hard to draw correlations. I wouldn't expect a headline to say "50 reported hate crimes in the last month", since it's so rarely black and white. I think law enforcement may be encouraged, but never required to investigate unprovable motives like that. 

If science can provide a way to measure racism, I propose the metric unit of "Hitlers"

Crimes against Asians in non-Asian countries is something that can be measured.  Types of crimes can also be measured.  It's also a number that will most likely be available come April. . .so claiming that it's the case NOW is why I asked for a source.

[Excellen Browning]

Since I don't think anyone here speaks Dutch, that's the director/ceo of the Dutch hospital with the most covid-19 patients. Says the hospital's only treating c19 patients now, has run out of capacity, and they're going to start with triage tomorrow