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Best Jaegan and worst Jaegan?

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This is on the wrong sub forum if we're talking about the whole series.

Worst Jagen is easily FE1 Jagen. There's no hard mode that makes those early game enemies threatening, and he doesn't even have a monopoly on using that silver lance - Caeda can wield it at level 1 and I recommend giving it to her since she has trouble dealing meaningful damage anyway. The only thing Jagen has going for him in this game compared to later games is that experience gains are fixed, so he won't level up any slower than non-promoted units. But Jagen's also got the worst stat growths in the whole series (rivaled only by Bantu in the same game) where each stat is either at 0 or 10. In a game where experience is plentiful, it's still wasted on him. I'm sure he'd see use in an LTC, but he's only moving one space further than the other three mounted units, and two spaces further than Marth

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2 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

This is on the wrong sub forum if we're talking about the whole series.

Worst Jagen is easily FE1 Jagen. There's no hard mode that makes those early game enemies threatening, and he doesn't even have a monopoly on using that silver lance - Caeda can wield it at level 1 and I recommend giving it to her since she has trouble dealing meaningful damage anyway. The only thing Jagen has going for him in this game compared to later games is that experience gains are fixed, so he won't level up any slower than non-promoted units. But Jagen's also got the worst stat growths in the whole series (rivaled only by Bantu in the same game) where each stat is either at 0 or 10. In a game where experience is plentiful, it's still wasted on him. I'm sure he'd see use in an LTC, but he's only moving one space further than the other three mounted units, and two spaces further than Marth

Personally I would say that Eyvel is the worst for literally just vanishing for most of the game and taking her flame sword with her if you forgot to trade at the end of ch3

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32 minutes ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

Personally I would say that Eyvel is the worst for literally just vanishing for most of the game and taking her flame sword with her if you forgot to trade at the end of ch3

Well then maybe we need a list of "Jagens" to work with, and/or a definition of the idea? Because including Shamir and Catherine already stretches the definition quite a bit. To me, I think it's only fair to compare Jagens who are there as early as chapter 1, because everybody who's ever rated fire emblem units before has their own unique interpretation of how poor availablilty affects a unit. To me, a bad unit that joins at chapter 1 is worse than an equally bad unit that joins in chapter 9, because they're bad for longer and presumably take more experience investment to become good. And most users disagree with me on that assessment - especially in games where grinding is the point of the game like Three Houses.

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I think "Jagen" needs to be defined here, because Perceval is absolutely not one.

Edited by eclipse

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I think the worst Jeigan is Gunter. Aside from poor availability, on the one path where he has early game availability (Revelations), he's not even that great at taking damage. His bases are shockingly low for his archetype, and frankly, the best use for him is as a pair up support to Corrin.

 

The best Jeigan is Seth. He's completely busted and quite possibly the best unit in the franchise.

 

My favorite Jeigan is Sothe. Having the Jeigan be a rogue lends itself to unique gameplay - dodge tanking, stealing, etc. And his unique ability to draw aggro from Micaiah makes him extremely valuable. Also, early game RD is so over the top hard that you basically have to lean on him.

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Best overall: Seth can solo his own game.  Honorable mention to FE7 Marcus for being solid for a very long time (including endgame, if you're willing to pull some shenanigans).

Best by definition: FE6 Marcus, which is to act as a crutch until your better units come along.

Unexpectedly the best: Arran from New Mystery, who can reclass into Bishop for some staff shenanigans.  Or he can gain flying utility via Dracoknight.  While Jagen in Shadow Dragon can do something similar, Arran's game makes it more interesting.

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Worst Jagen - Gunter. Definitely. Bad growth. Bad performance. Bad availability.

Best Jagen according to what a Jagen should be - FE6 Marcus or FE11 Jagen. Both of them are very useful in the early game but will eventually fall off.

Best Jagen as a unit - Seth. OP and never really stops being good, from what I understand.

My favorite Jagen - Either Titania or Sothe. Sothe is fun simply because he's so different from all the other Jagens, although he does fall off pretty hard later, at least until promotion.

I probably like Titania a bit more though for both being a great character and being great fun to use, being perfectly viable through endgame.

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13 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

I probably like Titania a bit more though for both being a great character and being great fun to use, being perfectly viable through endgame.

I'd also argue she's the closest to Seth on the power scale as well.

Oifey also works well as designed within Gen 2 of Genealogy, though he's more of a Jagen in a run with pairings. Quan has always been one to me as well, but he doesn't fall off and of course leaves.

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4 hours ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

Personally I would say that Eyvel is the worst for literally just vanishing for most of the game and taking her flame sword with her if you forgot to trade at the end of ch3

nope, it gets sent to convoy.

 

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Does Gunter count as Jagen? He’s terrible in the only route where he actually jagens, and if you want to stretch the definition his joining in the middle of Conquest doesn’t help him at all.

Since people are talking about the best jagens as well mine would be Seth as best unit and fe6 Marcus/Sothe for actually falling off.

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5 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

everybody who's ever rated fire emblem units before has their own unique interpretation of how poor availability affects a unit. To me, a bad unit that joins at chapter 1 is worse than an equally bad unit that joins in chapter 9, because they're bad for longer and presumably take more experience investment to become good.

Presumably this refers to units that are "equally bad" relative to the rest of your army when they join?

Edited by AnonymousSpeed

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If Rev!Gunter is included, then I would say Rev!Gunter is the worst. His stats aren't much higher than your other units (who will soon eclipse him), and his growths mean he won't keep up with the enemies. After a few chapters, he's relegated to a statpack for Corrin. And he's not even good at that, since this route removed his ability to support.

But if we're going by the list you provided, I'd say... Zelot, I guess? He's pretty good, but doesn't show up right away like the others. And he doesn't hold up into the lategame.

As for best, I'd say Seth. He utterly dominates his game, and needs basically nothing to stay solid until the very end. You'd think losing Axes would hurt Paladins, but they're still so overtuned.

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I would second Jagen from the original game as worst. There isn't much of anything he has going for him aside from Silver Lance use, which Caeda can do as well, and his poor growths ensure that experience is wasted on him. While Gunter sucks in Revelation, he's one of the few units that can actually take a hit early on.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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i don't play the higher difficulties where this would apply but sounds like frederick is the best jagen in terms of "you absolutely need his help to get your other units off the ground in the beginning". 

in absolute terms of course seth is the best because you can solo SS with him but you can also not touch seth once and still be absolutely fine even in HM. SS is just not very hard lol.

my experience with older FEs is getting increasingly lost to the sands of the time as the remakes hold a bigger grip in my memory but surely original fe1/book 1 jagen still holds up as the worst? at least fe11 jagen can reclass or whatever and anyone else would have some sort of more modern utility.

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I don't really consider Shamir a Jagen, since unlike Catherine her bases after autolevels aren't actually that much noticeably great (they're still solid though). Catherine is also iffy but her bases are so overpowering when she joins that I can see her being considered one.

As far as my answer, I wouldn't say FE1 Jagen is the worst. Sure, he seems bad because FE1 enemies are pretty weak and his growths are low, but you don't get any promotion items for a long time and having 10 move on a horse unit is basically exclusive to him. He can also be given stat boosters since those are ridiculous in FE1, and doing so means you won't need to promote any other cavs for a strong paladin.

Eyvel and Gunter, on the other hand, are better competitors for the worst Jagen in the series. CQ Gunter loses out on the one major positive that Jagens are supposed to have, which is early availability and noticeably higher bases. He does decently in the Fates prologue, but the time that he's around is still super short. He's basically just a pair-up bot for most of CQ and Rev. Eyvel has some of the worst availability of any Jagen, being available for only a few chapters early on, showing up for chapter 5, then vanishing until just before endgame, where her stats are way less useful. Her leadership star is still nice for the last map, but not worth it when you could field better combat units. Being literally unkillable in the early game means she can easily clear out hordes of enemies, although you may not want to do that since the enemies themselves aren't that strong and can be fed to your other units.

As for the best, Seth is the clear answer (unless you count Sigurd, but Sigurd is pretty much always ahead of the rest of your army, and I only consider a unit to be a Jagen if they start of ahead of your units and theoretically fall behind later, which Sigurd never does). Seth has it all: Amazing bases, perfect availability, amazing growths, 1-2 range access, mounted, and pre-promoted. Considering the enemy quality of Sacred Stones, his bases even hold up in endgame. Honestly, I find Seth to be an insult to game design just because he's so insanely good in every area that it's not even funny. There's no punishment for overusing him, and no drawbacks to benching him and then whipping him out for the last chapters. Even with average levels, units like Franz just barely catch up to him in terms of stats and only after tons of levels.

On 11/17/2020 at 5:43 PM, Hello72207 said:

nope, it gets sent to convoy.

 

Yep, and to add to this, Eyvel's inventory is actually different in chapter 3 and 6. The Iron Blade is also sent to the convoy if she has it on her, and the Iron Blade she has in Chapter 5 is different than that one, since it will always have full durability, even if the original Iron Blade saw use. This applies to the rest of her inventory as well; everything she has goes to the convoy.

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On 11/17/2020 at 10:07 AM, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

 zelot and percival could be included as jaegans as well for this discussion

Jerrot I could see an argument for (though I personally wouldn't consider him a Jagen) and Perceval is not a Jagen by any stretch of the imagination

 

On 11/17/2020 at 10:08 AM, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

Personally I would say that Eyvel is the worst for literally just vanishing for most of the game and taking her flame sword with her if you forgot to trade at the end of ch3

I would argue that FE1 Jagen is worse than her, Eyvel can at least consistently hold her own as well as help take out annoying to kill enemies early on (plus she's your best boss killer until Chapter 4) as well as protecting Nanna in Chapter 5. FE1 Jagen eventually gets to the point where he gets one rounded by everything unless you gave him stat boosters (which could go to literally anyone) on top of not really having that much of a niche besides 10 move (which admittedly is nice but it's worse in FE1 compared to other games because of the lack of Rescue mechanics as well as the Warp staff, meaning you're limited by how far Marth can move until you get Warp and after that you're limited by Warp uses or how far Marth can move, basically my point here is that having 10 move as opposed to 9 doesn't ultimately matter too much because you're still limited by Marth)

21 hours ago, Axie said:

i don't play the higher difficulties where this would apply but sounds like frederick is the best jagen in terms of "you absolutely need his help to get your other units off the ground in the beginning". 

in absolute terms of course seth is the best because you can solo SS with him but you can also not touch seth once and still be absolutely fine even in HM. SS is just not very hard lol.

my experience with older FEs is getting increasingly lost to the sands of the time as the remakes hold a bigger grip in my memory but surely original fe1/book 1 jagen still holds up as the worst? at least fe11 jagen can reclass or whatever and anyone else would have some sort of more modern utility.

FE6 Marcus, FE11 Jagen and FE12 Arran/Sirius (if you wanna count him) are fairly similar to Frederick in that regard. Also you mentioned FE11 Jagen having reclass, which is nice but not the only thing that actually makes him pretty good in FE11, as he also has access to forging, which can help keep his combat relevant for quite some time, even on H5

 

As for me, well

Worst: FE1 Jagen

Best: Seth or Titania

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In terms of purpose:

The best is Marcus from FE6. He generally has the best balance in being the crutch: he has the good starting stats for emergencies, but his poor growths makes it clear that you shouldn't be constantly relying on him.

The worst would be both Gunter and Seth, both for being too extreme on one side or the other. Gunter has massive availability and stat issues as previous people pointed out. Seth, on the other hand...

On 11/23/2020 at 4:44 AM, JuMs said:

Honestly, I find Seth to be an insult to game design just because he's so insanely good in every area that it's not even funny. There's no punishment for overusing him, and no drawbacks to benching him and then whipping him out for the last chapters. Even with average levels, units like Franz just barely catch up to him in terms of stats and only after tons of levels.

 

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