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Arkham Guy

Conquest is not unfair

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        I wanted to make this post for quite sometime, so a lot of people who reach Ninja Heaven in Conquest typically say that from this point conquest is either overtuned, unfair, or that the harder maps in the lategame are bad. I personally think that every map between ch17 and endgame are excellent execpt ch19, also I don't believe that the lategame or Conquest in general is unfair. I understand that not everyone will enjoy CQ but to say that it is unfair is a trash take in my opinion when you have tools like tonics, meals, forges, personal/class skills, attack/guard stance, builds, and reclassing that you can use to your advantage. This is the first time I post a topic here so I apologize for my poor grammer.

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Ch 19 had an annoying mechanic, but the map wasn't too hard. What I think is dumb though was Inevitable End stuff at the end of Lunatic. I guess you can make your Corrin be able to kill Ryoma, and miss out on the chests, because that's intuitive to a player. Then the end game would be obnoxious if you did save your Rescue staff so that you could do some 2-Turn cheese.

I definitely struggled through Conquest at times, but it's made to be challenging. It doesn't have too many unfair RNG mechanics, and start of turn attacking reinforcements.

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I don't feel it's particularly useful to just throw words like "unfair" around, whether it's to say that the game is or is not unfair. Just saying "the game is unfair" is absolutely a trash take, but so is saying "the game is not unfair". Different people are going to have their own criteria for exactly what does and doesn't constitute "unfair". Instead, it's much more useful to focus on specific issues. Saying that all problems that the game throws at you can be solved with clever skill builds and reclassing is a legitimate comment. On the other hand, it's also legitimate to say that there's no way within the game to know what classes give what skills up until you actually get them, so a first-time player shouldn't ever be expected to deal with anything that absolutely requires that knowledge and foresight.

It's entirely expected that different people might consider the game "fair" or "unfair" based on their own personal preferences and proclivities. Neither label is wrong, but neither label is useful on its own.

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15 minutes ago, lenticular said:

On the other hand, it's also legitimate to say that there's no way within the game to know what classes give what skills up until you actually get them, so a first-time player shouldn't ever be expected to deal with anything that absolutely requires that knowledge and foresight.

I mentioned the Inevitable End stuff, and if I didn't have resources to know about it before hand I wouldn't have valued Shurikenbreaker as much, and would have used up my Rescue staff. As long as there aren't any random curve balls, that a player wouldn't have a deterministic approach for, the difficulty should be fine.

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The damage reduction floor vanishing in Chapter 25 and Ryoma suddenly going from from being completely safe to being able to 1round ko Corrin with an astra proc is absolutely unfair.

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The only real issues I have with Conquest are the Ryoma duel (either take forever whittling him down because the floor reduces damage taken to a quarter - you are not told about this, by the way - or go through hell to activate the Dragon Vein only for it to now be a game of Russian roulette where if the RNG is not on your side [which is to say, Ryoma crits or gets an astra proc], all your hard work was for nothing), as well as the wind chapter. And don't get me started on the endgame in Lunatic. I feel justified in calling those unfair.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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19 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The only real issues I have with Conquest are the Ryoma duel (either take forever whittling him down because the floor reduces damage taken to a quarter - you are not told about this, by the way - or go through hell to activate the Dragon Vein only for it to now be a game of Russian roulette where if the RNG is not on your side [which is to say, Ryoma crits or gets an astra proc], all your hard work was for nothing), as well as the wind chapter. And don't get me started on the endgame in Lunatic. I feel justified in calling those unfair.

Have you played Conquest?

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45 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Have you played Conquest?

Much as I'm getting the urge to give this a snarky response, I'll just answer straight and say I have.

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I would say the only unfair parts of Conquest are the very few things the game doesn’t tell you like the floor in Ryoma’s room either before the 25 turns or before you use the dragon vein (see I don’t know because the game doesn’t tell you) reduces damage by a substantial amount and the entrap staff users in chapter 26 won’t use entrap if a unit is inside one of the rooms.

Well, there’s also the fact that Endgame doesn’t give you a save before the chapter, which is the only reason I haven’t beat hard mode without any casualties, which feels unfair because you’re being extra punished for having the audacity to want to keep a unit alive who died in arguably the hardest map in the game, but if Corrin dies you don’t even have a choice, you literally have to redo the previous chapter. Proc skills can feel unfair but the game does tell you about all of them, and while I personally don’t like proc skills anyway, I wouldn’t call them unfair. But don’t get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed Conquest.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

the wind chapter

What? Why?

Edited by Sooks

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I'm playing Conquest Lunatic rn, and I imo the problem with some lategame maps is its overreliance on gimmicks.

20 minutes ago, Sooks said:

What? Why?

He's talking about Fuga's Wild Ride.

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3 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

He's talking about Fuga's Wild Ride.

Yeah, but why?

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34 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Much as I'm getting the urge to give this a snarky response, I'll just answer straight and say I have.

Just checking. You have set a lot of precedent for complaining about things you know nothing about.

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44 minutes ago, Sooks said:

What? Why?

I find gimmicks that move the player's units against their will, especially if it happens before the enemy's turn, to be awful, especially when nullifying it comes with a severe opportunity cost (that being, a royal unit - who are more likely than not going to be among the player's better units - has to sacrifice their turn to activate a dragon vein). The massive amount of seal skills the enemies in said chapter have doesn't help matters.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I find gimmicks that move the player's units against their will, especially if it happens before the enemy's turn, to be awful, especially when nullifying it comes with a severe opportunity cost (that being, a royal unit - who are more likely than not going to be among the player's better units - has to sacrifice their turn to activate a dragon vein). The massive amount of seal skills the enemies in said chapter have doesn't help matters.

Then move out of the way of the wind if you absolutely can’t afford it. Is this talking about lunatic? I don’t remember many seal skills on hard, but it has been a while.

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It's probably Lunatic.  Which I think is difficulty in the right direction - not necessarily stat inflation, but requiring some other thinking.  The downside IMO is that you're basically asked "do you have X and Y", which determines the difficulty of the challenge.

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14 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Then move out of the way of the wind if you absolutely can’t afford it. Is this talking about lunatic? I don’t remember many seal skills on hard, but it has been a while.

Probably. And Hayato also has a Hexing Rod.

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23 hours ago, Sooks said:
23 hours ago, Maof06 said:

He's talking about Fuga's Wild Ride.

Yeah, but why?

While I don't find most of these arguments compelling, I feel it would be a bit disingenuous not to point out an aspect to that map which some might consider unfair. The way the winds work aren't well enough explained for the player to understand what will occur in a lot of cases. The explanation reads

Quote

At the end of the enemy phase, any of your units caught in the wind's path will be moved five spaces. If there is nowhere to stand, they will be moved to the nearest safe space.

How is the game determining the "nearest safe space" ? What happens when multiple units have the same "nearest safe space"? Which takes priority, a unit that reaches a space through the 5 spaces moved, or a unit that reaches a space as the "nearest safe space"? There are a lot of unclear questions that you have to learn the hard way.

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I would only consider Conquest's Lunatic Endgame as unfair. Not because of its being difficult, but because of the specificity of the difficulty. Lunatic Endgame is a puzzle that can only be solved with a very clear idea of its mechanics.

I, for example, have no issues with with Chapters 17 or 19, which many people complain about. The defensive thresholds are rather low so that multiple builds of multiple characters can play the exact same role and succeed in a perfectly reproducible way, and the mechanics involved are clear and consistent. Of course one may find these chapters difficult, but they are certainly not unfair.
On the other hand, and as Eltosian Kadath has explained here and in other opportunities, Chapter 20 is indeed unfair because its mechanics are not clearly explained, and the only way to fully understand how the map plays is to play it first.

Having said that, I may be an exception, but I enjoy replaying maps. Not because I try to "save-scum" an outcome, but to actually come up with a better, more efficient approach. Therefore the idea of how Conquest fares as a blind play through is very odd to me.

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