Fire Emblem Protagonist Tournament Day 32: Finale

[Jotari]

Comment on which character you think will prevail

Character weapons and abilities: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gPuMGGaaTeL3yb0TlrsaGvjnvmok6mBhAbGFG8ya2pM/edit?usp=sharing

Stat calculator and battle simulator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17yziWvEZA0eMv2d0eKUJizrnR-luHfDWMl2y5yy28Qs/edit?usp=sharing

 

Original Post

Spoiler

 

So a while back there was a thread called Fire Emblem Dream Duel or something to that effect, which asked which characters would win in a fight from the series. Me, being a person with bizarre priorities, spent hours of my  life comparing the stats from all across the series to create a calculator that could adjust stats in Fire Emblem for inflation. It's not perfect, but it's much closer to an accurate comparison of units than just taking their stats from their own games. This is the result. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17yziWvEZA0eMv2d0eKUJizrnR-luHfDWMl2y5yy28Qs/edit?usp=sharing

So, anyway I just randomly  thought about doing something with it again and I thought why not make a tourney of sorts using all the protagonists in the series. The idea would be to pit the characters against each other in a single elimination bracket. Each pair of fighters would fight three rounds. One without any weapons, just a raw comparison of stats. One with their legendary weapons, and finally a round factoring in skills as best I can within the limits of the combat simulator I have. There would be 32 contestants with one battle taking place each day, so the whole affair would last about a month. Battles would be displayed by making a gif of the calculators playing out the fight.

Of course protagonist is a loosely defined term in Fire Emblem. So I should clarify who the contestants would be. The list is as follows.

I needed 32 to have an even tournament with no one being seeded. So I had to fill out things a bit. This means that Marth, Leif and Ike are in the tourney twice for each of their playable appearances. Seteth is also included to represent Silver Snow. The biggest stretches as far as protagonists go would be Elincia and Tibarn, who are sort of lords in Part 2 and 4 respectively of Radiant Dawn.

So this initial post is just an interest check. But rather than just wait for three people to say "yeah sure, that looks cool", I've made a poll to answer one of the first questions of the tourney, which should also help me to see how many people care about something like this. That poll being, which class should Kris and Corrin use? Kris is the only character with no canon class while Corrin has two (although Nohr Noble is straight up better in combat, right?). I should note that I lack the stats for a 20/20 Falcon Knight Kris (if anyone can get them that would be appreciated, I could calculate them myself, but I don't know what their growth rates are as a Falcon Knight, only as a Pegasus Knight). That will need to be decided before we start. So you can start arguing that now in the comments while I randomize the brackets for round 1. What weapons the likes of Kris, Micaiah, Leif and Robin, the characters that don't have their own legendary weapon, are allowed to use is also worth discussing. If it's fair game for any character to use any weapon from their game, then be prepared for Micaiah sleep spamming every unit with a lower resistance stat than her.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Jotari

[deskita]

I admit it would be kinda interesting to see what would happen if every character just picks the best items for that match-up, even if it does lead to some sleep and brave weapon spam. As I can imagine Robin using Celica's Gale or the Superior Jolt against mages.

Though if I had to pick one weapon for Robin odds are it'd be some kind of Thunder magic either Thoron or Mjolnir as that seems to be the type of magic they use most as they start out with a Thunder tome and they cast Thoron in some cutscenes.

[Jotari]

38 minutes ago, deskita said:

I admit it would be kinda interesting to see what would happen if every character just picks the best items for that match-up, even if it does lead to some sleep and brave weapon spam. As I can imagine Robin using Celica's Gale or the Superior Jolt against mages.

Though if I had to pick one weapon for Robin odds are it'd be some kind of Thunder magic either Thoron or Mjolnir as that seems to be the type of magic they use most as they start out with a Thunder tome and they cast Thoron in some cutscenes.

If I remember correctly, Thoron and a Silver Sword are also both the things Robin has in their inventory in the Premonition battle before the prologue, suggesting those are end game weapons for Robin.

[ARMADS!!!]

Yeah, thats awsome. I have the highest respect for you for putting so much effort in something so useless yet so amazing.

 Leif would use the light brand I guess? and Micaiah use Thani? idk, those are their prf weapons after all, even if they don't count as legendary. Maybe let them use the best weapon that they can wield in the game in compensation, I didn't play FE5, FE10, Awakening or New mystery, but these games have S rank weapons or something of the like, right? That should be it.

 

 As for Falco Knight Kris growth rates, I found them here (can't confirm if they're right though, but check it out and see what you think): https://serenesforest.net/light-and-shadow/characters/growth-rates/all/standard-classes/ in the second line, it says that their growths are the same for Peg, Falco and Draco knight (Hp60%, Str35% , Mag0% , Skl50%, Spd55%, Lck60% , Def30%, Res10%) 

 Also, didn't answer your poll cause I didn't play fates or new mystery, but isn't there one class that is considered the best among them? Idk if it helps but its what i can say

Edited November 13, 2021 by ARMADS!!!

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

Yeah, thats awsome. I have the highest respect for you for putting so much effort in something so useless yet so amazing.

 Leif would use the light brand I guess? and Micaiah use Thani? idk, those are their prf weapons after all, even if they don't count as legendary. Maybe let them use the best weapon that they can wield in the game in compensation, I didn't play FE5, FE10, Awakening or New mystery, but these games have S rank weapons or something of the like, right? That should be it.

 

 As for Falco Knight Kris growth rates, I found them here (can't confirm if they're right though, but check it out and see what you think): https://serenesforest.net/light-and-shadow/characters/growth-rates/all/standard-classes/ in the second line, it says that their growths are the same for Peg, Falco and Draco knight (Hp60%, Str35% , Mag0% , Skl50%, Spd55%, Lck60% , Def30%, Res10%) 

 Also, didn't answer your poll cause I didn't play fates or new mystery, but isn't there one class that is considered the best among them? Idk if it helps but its what i can say

Ah, that's probably why I couldn't find any falcon knight growths. It's the same as Pegasus and wyvern.  Though I do find that a bit odd. It means the only statistical difference between the two classes are promotion bonuses, and, towards the end, possibly whatever caps they reach. Still, I'll added Falcon Knight to the poll. Looks like Hero is winning for Kris.

[Jotari]

Kris I'm pretty set on giving, depending on which class wins, one of the three Regalia, Hauteclere or Starlight. Because Kris has absolutely noting else to their name as far as weapons go, not so much as a rapier. So if I'm giving Kris the best weapons of each type in their game, following suit and giving Micaiah RexAura and Robin Mjolnir seems best (though it kind of peeves me Robin'sonly options are weapons from other games). Thracia Leif I think I'll give the Blaggi sword as it's a semi personal legendary weapon. Not sure about Genealogy Leif though.

[Jotari]

Okay, results are in. Looks like Kris will be going Hero and Corrin will be going Nohr Noble. That leads me to another question, but first, let's have a look at our brackets.

The most interesting fight here for me is Seliph vs Ryoma. Seliph seems to be one of the strongest lords in the series, however, Ryoma might be the one guy who can take him down, thanks to a 1-2 range advantage and being fast enough to double. It'll take some time before we see that fight however. As our first match up is Marth vs Seteth. So I'm going to set up a poll seeing who you think will win between those two.

Now for the next question. Should characters be limited to 1 weapon, or any weapon they have an affinity with. For example, should Corrin be locked to the Yato, or should they be able to use either the Yato or Dragonstone depending on which enemy they're facing? Personally I'm leaning slightly more towards yes, as it'll stop things being a complete swordfest.

[ARMADS!!!]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Okay, results are in. Looks like Kris will be going Hero and Corrin will be going Nohr Noble. That leads me to another question, but first, let's have a look at our brackets.

The most interesting fight here for me is Seliph vs Ryoma. Seliph seems to be one of the strongest lords in the series, however, Ryoma might be the one guy who can take him down, thanks to a 1-2 range advantage and being fast enough to double. It'll take some time before we see that fight however. As our first match up is Marth vs Seteth. So I'm going to set up a poll seeing who you think will win between those two.

Now for the next question. Should characters be limited to 1 weapon, or any weapon they have an affinity with. For example, should Corrin be locked to the Yato, or should they be able to use either the Yato or Dragonstone depending on which enemy they're facing? Personally I'm leaning slightly more towards yes, as it'll stop things being a complete swordfest.

 Just curious, did you have any criteria to organize the brackets and who is fighting who or it was random?

 

 Also, yeah, I think that they should be able to switch weapons if they can. Like in Lord A's turn, Lord A can choose a weapon to attack Lord B and then Lord A turn will end so he/she will have to stick with the weapon chosen to counterattack Lord B (that will attack in Lord B's turn, and of course, Lord B will be able to change the weapon before attacking if he/she want too, but again will have to stick with said weapon to counterattack lord A afterwards because His/her turn will end after attacking). And the cycle goes on. Having weapon triangle control is a really advantageous trait in a unit in FE, so applying it to this contest that is exactly trying to figure which of the lords is the best, seems like a good idea.

 (also, I'm sorry, are we supposed to just answer the polls or we can post and comment here too? I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be answering this right now or asking stuff or if I should just answer the polls and let the whole thread be about your posts of the competition. If I wasn't supposed to post, sorry)

Edited November 14, 2021 by ARMADS!!!

[Jotari]

32 minutes ago, ARMADS!!! said:

 Just curious, did you have any criteria to organize the brackets and who is fighting who or it was random?

 

 Also, yeah, I think that they should be able to switch weapons if they can. Like in Lord A's turn, Lord A can choose a weapon to attack Lord B and then Lord A turn will end so he/she will have to stick with the weapon chosen to counterattack Lord B (that will attack in Lord B's turn, and of course, Lord B will be able to change the weapon before attacking if he/she want too, but again will have to stick with said weapon to counterattack lord A afterwards because His/her turn will end after attacking). And the cycle goes on. Having weapon triangle control is a really advantageous trait in a unit in FE, so applying it to this contest that is exactly trying to figure which of the lords is the best, seems like a good idea.

 (also, I'm sorry, are we supposed to just answer the polls or we can post and comment here too? I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be answering this right now or asking stuff or if I should just answer the polls and let the whole thread be about your posts of the competition. If I wasn't supposed to post, sorry)

Please do comment. I'd encourage it. As for the selection process, it was mostly randomized, but then I swapped around some fights so people wouldn't be fighting someone from their own continuity.

[Dark Holy Elf]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

So if I'm giving Kris the best weapons of each type in their game, following suit and giving Micaiah RexAura and Robin Mjolnir seems best (though it kind of peeves me Robin'sonly options are weapons from other games).

Micaiah should have Nosferatu IMO. Not only is it a good weapon (better than Rexaura in this setting IMO), it's explicitly given to her in a base convo in Part 4.

Mjollnir seems an odd choice for Robin; I've played Awakening multiple times and I didn't even know Mjollnir existed in the game. Apparently it's from a Xenologue? I'd suggest Valflame instead; it's stronger due to the +5 Magic and it's obtained as part of the main story where Robin is very prominent. Or Nosferatu again if you want the meta choice.

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Micaiah should have Nosferatu IMO. Not only is it a good weapon (better than Rexaura in this setting IMO), it's explicitly given to her in a base convo in Part 4.

Mjollnir seems an odd choice for Robin; I've played Awakening multiple times and I didn't even know Mjollnir existed in the game. Apparently it's from a Xenologue? I'd suggest Valflame instead; it's stronger due to the +5 Magic and it's obtained as part of the main story where Robin is very prominent. Or Nosferatu again if you want the meta choice.

Oh Micaiah gets nosfearatu? Some how that completely slipped my mind. If she gets it in a base convo, well, then, excellent.

Mjollnir is what I gravitated to because of the whole thunder theming with Robin. Can't give Robin Nosferatu as they'll be in Grandmaster which can't use dark tomes. If dark magic was on the table then I'd use Goetia, as that's the only A rank weapon that actually hails from Awakening. Robin also needs to consider a sword that could be useful to bring, just in case they go up against Micaiah (though right now that's extremely unlikely given the brackets, but I'm thinking of randomizing each round of brackets to keep things interesting).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah to be clear I wasn't actually being serious about Robin/Nosferatu, I agree with you of course.

EDIT: Oh yeah, on the current match, does the (non-Awakening) Archanaea Falchion hit weakness on wyvern riders? I would imagine things hinge on that.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Dark Holy Elf

[Dayni]

54 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

EDIT: Oh yeah, on the current match, does the (non-Awakening) Archanaea Falchion hit weakness on wyvern riders? I would imagine things hinge on that.

I thought it did, but if it acts like the Wyrmslayer apparently not in SD as it only treat Manaketes as Dragons in that game and both have that in their description. I think it does in MotE though.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah to be clear I wasn't actually being serious about Robin/Nosferatu, I agree with you of course.

EDIT: Oh yeah, on the current match, does the (non-Awakening) Archanaea Falchion hit weakness on wyvern riders? I would imagine things hinge on that.

It doesn't in Shadow Dragon, so no (though in the main game you never actually have a chance to use it on a wyvern rider as far as I can recall {though I suppose you could in multiplayer}, and in terms of lore it absolutely should, but I'm quite sure it doesn't. All the effective damage lists just say manaketes and earth dragon)

[JimmyBeans]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

It doesn't in Shadow Dragon, so no (though in the main game you never actually have a chance to use it on a wyvern rider as far as I can recall {though I suppose you could in multiplayer}, and in terms of lore it absolutely should, but I'm quite sure it doesn't. All the effective damage lists just say manaketes and earth dragon)

There are wyvern riders on the final map of FE11 and ya it doesnt do eff dmg on them, only Manaketes and Medeus.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Sounds cool! I placed my vote already, but I know you mentioned multiple rounds. Does that mean we'll vote again on "Marth vs. Seteth", but with some different conditions applied? I cast my vote assuming A) the Falchion wouldn't deal effective damage against Seteth, either on the basis of being a Wyvern Rider or a Nabatean, and B) Seteth could use the Swift Strikes combat art. Not sure whether these were fair to say, or if there are rules about assumptions.

As for which weapon a character gets, I guess the question would be between "best" and "most iconic". As @Dark Holy Elf mentioned, Micaiah receives the Nosferatu tome, and in most matchups it'd probably be her best choice. But she's not guaranteed to have the rank to use it (Micaiah gets C-rank automatically in Light Sage, and A-rank in Light Priestess, whereas RD!Nosferatu requires S-rank), and moreover, she's hardly the only character who can use it (Oliver, for instance, joins with S-rank Light). Thani, on the other hand, is a Prf weapon locked to Micaiah, and the only such weapon she receives throughout the game. If she's only getting one weapon to use, I'd say it should be Thani. Perhaps, though, that is a case for units getting two weapons - one that's "most iconic", and another that's "best". Sigurd, for instance, could get not just Tyrfing to use, but also the Brave Sword as another option. I'd imagine that, for future prompts, which weapon(s) the units in question get ought to be specified at time-of-asking.

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As @Dark Holy Elf mentioned, Micaiah receives the Nosferatu tome, and in most matchups it'd probably be her best choice. But she's not guaranteed to have the rank to use it (Micaiah gets C-rank automatically in Light Sage, and A-rank in Light Priestess, whereas RD!Nosferatu requires S-rank), and moreover, she's hardly the only character who can use it (Oliver, for instance, joins with S-rank Light). Thani, on the other hand, is a Prf weapon locked to Micaiah, and the only such weapon she receives throughout the game. If she's only getting one weapon to use, I'd say it should be Thani.

Oliver joins with his own Nosferatu tome. There are other characters who might reach S rank light magic, but all of them have to hustle more than Micaiah does - Rhys joins with C, Laura promotes to an E, and Sanaki joins with an A a mere chapter before Nosferatu is granted. So Micaiah's not only explicitly given the tome, but she's the most likely to naturally have the rank to use it.

I agree that Thani is more iconic but it's also an earlygame weapon so it's a bit odd to have a mix of people with endgame weaponry and others with earlygame weaponry. That said I'd generally favour characters getting multiple weapons as long as each one is one that they have at least a decent claim to should it be limited in some way (e.g. I certainly wouldn't give Brave weapons to FE7 characters, when there's only one of each Brave weapon in the game).

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

10 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I agree that Thani is more iconic but it's also an earlygame weapon so it's a bit odd to have a mix of people with endgame weaponry and others with earlygame weaponry. That said I'd generally favour characters getting multiple weapons as long as each one is one that they have at least a decent claim to should it be limited in some way (e.g. I certainly wouldn't give Brave weapons to FE7 characters, when there's only one of each Brave weapon in the game).

I wouldn't hold Thani's "earlygame" status too hard against it - its stats hold up, relative to other tomes in the game. For instance, it has 2 Might and 15 Hit over Nosferatu (as well as 6 less Weight, but that won't matter by the time Micaiah gets into Light Priestess). Nosferatu is likely the better pick, sure (given its recovery factor), but against cavalry or armored opponents, I think there's a strong case for Thani instead.

As for FE7, it's an interesting case, in that each Lord character has two fairly obvious picks - to Eliwood, the Rapier and Durandal; to Hector, the Wolf Beil and Armads; and to Lyn, the Mani Katti and Sol Katti. But what if neither weapon is a given unit's "best"? Eliwood has 9 Con after promotion, meaning he's losing 7 attack speed from the 16-weight Durandal. Perhaps he'd rather have a Spear? He does less damage with it, but at a loss of just 1 attack speed. And he can attack at 2-range, thus avoiding a counter-attack against the right foes. And and, now he has WTA over opposing sword users. In short, the question of "who would win?" can depend dearly on how we answer "what are they bringing into battle?"

20 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Oliver joins with his own Nosferatu tome. There are other characters who might reach S rank light magic, but all of them have to hustle more than Micaiah does - Rhys joins with C, Laura promotes to an E, and Sanaki joins with an A a mere chapter before Nosferatu is granted. So Micaiah's not only explicitly given the tome, but she's the most likely to naturally have the rank to use it.

This one depends on how Micaiah's used. Most of my RD playthroughs are fairly casual, so I don't mind feeding kills (and thereby, weapon rank) to Micaiah. If I were playing more "efficiently", though, I'd likely be hard-pressed to find more than a few chances per map for her to get an attack in. Certainly, she'll reach S-rank Light more easily than Laura (who often doesn't even promote to Bishop), but relative to Rhys, it's hard to say (Rhys has plenty of time to build Light rank in Part III, but like Micaiah, he won't see much combat in the hands of an "efficient" player). If I'm making an effort with Rhys, I could probably get him to S-Light by the Tower, but the same is true of Micaiah. Sanaki, ironically, would have a "jump-start" on a relatively untrained Micaiah, since Micaiah would only have A-Light right before entering the Tower.

[Jotari]

Micaiah is also given purge in 3-13, not even in a case convo, directly in the story with the expectation that she can use it (though she actually couldn't in my first playthrough). I'm considering letting her have it to deal a long ranged attack before the enemy reaches her. Though there'll be quite a few matches before Micaiah specifically has to fight. The first characters of real question  as to weapon usage would be Genealogy Leif vs Azura. I expect Leif to hand my win the battle, but what exact weapons are best for him is kind if unverified. He gets the light brand, but much like Thani, it's an early game weapon. A silver axe for wta could likely do him better. As for Azura, I'll probably  give her a bolt naginata as that seems to be the best weapon for her giving her low weapon rank cap.

[Dark Holy Elf]

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I wouldn't hold Thani's "earlygame" status too hard against it - its stats hold up, relative to other tomes in the game. For instance, it has 2 Might and 15 Hit over Nosferatu (as well as 6 less Weight, but that won't matter by the time Micaiah gets into Light Priestess). Nosferatu is likely the better pick, sure (given its recovery factor), but against cavalry or armored opponents, I think there's a strong case for Thani instead.

As for FE7, it's an interesting case, in that each Lord character has two fairly obvious picks - to Eliwood, the Rapier and Durandal; to Hector, the Wolf Beil and Armads; and to Lyn, the Mani Katti and Sol Katti. But what if neither weapon is a given unit's "best"? Eliwood has 9 Con after promotion, meaning he's losing 7 attack speed from the 16-weight Durandal. Perhaps he'd rather have a Spear? He does less damage with it, but at a loss of just 1 attack speed. And he can attack at 2-range, thus avoiding a counter-attack against the right foes. And and, now he has WTA over opposing sword users. In short, the question of "who would win?" can depend dearly on how we answer "what are they bringing into battle?"

Yeah, fair enough, RD really didn't want to let tomes scale up much.

The spear is the exact type of weapon I'm not inclined to let people have here. There's only one or two in the game (depending on mode), and Eliwood has no particular unique claim to one of them. In fact his claim is weaker than that of the natural lance users, since his promotion time ranges from late to extraordinarily late, and has to raise his lance rank by two in that short window. If Durandal's weight is a conern I'd suggest an option of a backup silver sword for him, since that doesn't weigh him down and you can buy as many as you need. Silver Sword with a finishing blow from Durandal is competent enough.

But that's just my personal take, obviously I'm fine with whatever rules get decided on.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This one depends on how Micaiah's used. Most of my RD playthroughs are fairly casual, so I don't mind feeding kills (and thereby, weapon rank) to Micaiah. If I were playing more "efficiently", though, I'd likely be hard-pressed to find more than a few chances per map for her to get an attack in. Certainly, she'll reach S-rank Light more easily than Laura (who often doesn't even promote to Bishop), but relative to Rhys, it's hard to say (Rhys has plenty of time to build Light rank in Part III, but like Micaiah, he won't see much combat in the hands of an "efficient" player). If I'm making an effort with Rhys, I could probably get him to S-Light by the Tower, but the same is true of Micaiah. Sanaki, ironically, would have a "jump-start" on a relatively untrained Micaiah, since Micaiah would only have A-Light right before entering the Tower.

Eh, compared to Rhys, Micaiah has several more maps of use (4 extra, if I'm counting right), and more significantly, for a majority of those maps she has no staff access so she's forced to use light magic if you want to contribute. "Efficient" play can mean different things but I'm certainly inclined to assume she is used enough to hit Level 20 in Part 1, which is lot of light tome use. So in practice, she tends to be quite a bit ahead of Rhys in light rank (and even if you want to use Rhys as "mostly" a light mage, she should still be a bit ahead of him).

Sanaki's got more of a chance to be competitive, although a variety of factors make me consider that Nosferatu tome to be Micaiah's and not Sanaki's - the base conversation is the biggest, but also the fact that Nosferatu weighs down Sanaki a lot, and the fact that Micaiah is exclusively a light mage for offence while Sanaki is oriented toward fire.

[Jotari]

I'll do the first match when I get back from work in a few hours from now. I'll also make a Google doc showing what weapons, equipment and skills characters will be using.

Combat arts are something I was planning to talk about later, I somehow  forgot Seteth had swift strikes going for him. One one hand I like the idea of combat arts as it allow for stuff like Alm outrannging things using scendscale. On the other hand it kind of guarantees a win for Dimitri, he's already a shoe in for champ giving how high his strength is, Atrocity with its effective damage on everything  is just going to turn all skill rounds into a guaranteed victory. One way around this that could be potentially  interesting would be to calculate weapon durability between rounds. So that Three Houses characters can't spam combat arts. Though this puts more tactics into the decision for victory and thus putd the choices in my hands when the whole idea is have the battles be automatic. So maybe just disallowing combat arts entirely would be more fair.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm certainly inclined to assume she is used enough to hit Level 20 in Part 1, which is lot of light tome use.

Either that or a lot of Sacrafice use.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The spear is the exact type of weapon I'm not inclined to let people have here. There's only one or two in the game (depending on mode), and Eliwood has no particular unique claim to one of them. In fact his claim is weaker than that of the natural lance users, since his promotion time ranges from late to extraordinarily late, and has to raise his lance rank by two in that short window. If Durandal's weight is a conern I'd suggest an option of a backup silver sword for him, since that doesn't weigh him down and you can buy as many as you need. Silver Sword with a finishing blow from Durandal is competent enough.

I can respect that perspective, sure, but I'm gonna disagree with it. FE7 has a lot of Lance-users, but none of them are involved in this competition. As such, he's not competing for Spear access with anyone else who's going to be specifically built for the competition. We can probably agree, for instance, that Lyn is a middling unit, but the version of her in this competition is likely one that's received a fair deal of attention. In the same sense, we can assume a Hector-mode Eliwood who's promoting as soon as possible, and will probably be using Javelins most of the time thereafter (given the inherent advantages to 1~2 range). I haven't tested it, but I have to assume B Lances is quite achievable by Endgame.

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Eh, compared to Rhys, Micaiah has several more maps of use (4 extra, if I'm counting right), and more significantly, for a majority of those maps she has no staff access so she's forced to use light magic if you want to contribute. "Efficient" play can mean different things but I'm certainly inclined to assume she is used enough to hit Level 20 in Part 1, which is lot of light tome use. So in practice, she tends to be quite a bit ahead of Rhys in light rank (and even if you want to use Rhys as "mostly" a light mage, she should still be a bit ahead of him).

See, I was assuming an "efficient" Micaiah that doesn't reach level 20 in part I. It's certainly doable, and something I strive for in every playthrough, but hardly a given if I'm caring about turncount. Oh, and if she's grinding EXP with Sacrifice, that's also a turn she's not building Light rank.

That said, I can back off the gas here. If we're assuming "invested" versions of units like Eliwood or Lyn, then we can also assume a Micaiah with S-rank Light by the time she gets Nosferatu. I don't think the fact that she recieves it in a conversation is particularly strong - as the "Lord" of the army, she receives plenty of items not intended for her (i.e. Rexbolt, in her prior chapter). Still, I think Nosferatu as an option makes plenty sense for her - though I would have her keep Thani, if two tomes are allowed.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Combat arts are something I was planning to talk about later, I somehow  forgot Seteth had swift strikes going for him. One one hand I like the idea of combat arts as it allow for stuff like Alm outrannging things using scendscale. On the other hand it kind of guarantees a win for Dimitri, he's already a shoe in for champ giving how high his strength is, Atrocity with its effective damage on everything  is just going to turn all skill rounds into a guaranteed victory. One way around this that could be potentially  interesting would be to calculate weapon durability between rounds. So that Three Houses characters can't spam combat arts. Though this puts more tactics into the decision for victory and thus putd the choices in my hands when the whole idea is have the battles be automatic. So maybe just disallowing combat arts entirely would be more fair.

Maybe allow for one use of a combat art, or chance-based combat skill (i.e. Ike's Aether) per matchup? That way, those tools can factor in, without necessarily being overwhelming. To totally disallow them, I fear, would remove some of the unique traits each Lord offers.

Also, if Alm is using any combat art, it should be Double Lion with the Royal Sword. Brave damage GG.

[ARMADS!!!]

Mybe you can give either:

 1) One weapon of each type that a character can use, one of them being their iconic weapon and the other should be the best weapon of the other type. For example, Hector would have Armads and the best sword in the game (that is up to discussion I guess, would the wind sword count since you can only get it by linking Mario kart in the game? idk, well its best to just pick between any other sword in the game I guess) 

 2) All of their prf weapons. In this case, Hector would have Wolf Beil AND Armads, even if they're both axes. 

 3) All of their prf weapons + at least one weapon of each type they can wield. In this case, Hector would have Wolf Beil, Armads AND the best sword in the game.

 

 Also, do weapon rank bonuses apply here? And we use the initial weapon ranks (still in Hector's example, it would be C in axes and D in swords, but this would create a problem since we wouldn't be able to give Hector any sword that has higher rank than D so let alone having the best weapons in the game) Or we raise the weapon ranks to max? (and I think that we would have to apply the rules of each game on this, so Hector could not have S rank in both axes and swords for example, so in case we chose S rank for him in axes, he would be able to wield every sword in the game BUT Regal Blade). I think that its better to raise the weapon ranks to the best they can have, like @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said, the "invested" versions of the lords (but we would still have to apply the rules of each game, so Eliwood, Lyn and Hector, for example, would have only 1 S rank even if they all can wield 2 weapon types)

 

 Also, the "best" weapon greatly depends on the necessity (in the marjority of the times), like this Micaiah example (with thani being more useful against cavalry and armoured foes but Nosferatu being generally better). Or for instance, imagine that Eliwood has Durandal as his sword and now has to pick a lance too, what would he pick? what would be the "best lance" for him? Rex Hasta, that is the only S rank lance in the game? A Javelin, that alows him to have 1-2 range? It really depends on the foe

 So maybe the best way is to have each lord switch weapons between the rounds (still bring more than one weapon per round, but always be able to redo their inventories between each battle). Let them be prepared to face each opponent in the best way they can. If Micaiah is facing Roy let her take Nosferatu, if she's facing Hector, let her bring Thani instead. If Eliwood is facing a fast unit let him use a sword that won't slow him down, if he is facing someone slower, let him bring Durandal. This way we could really see who is the best lord at their max, and nor only which of the wepons is better to kill as many opponents as possible.

 

[Jotari]

Okay so I tried to make the battle into a gif, but the video ran too long and I'm not even sure OBS is good enough to capture a google doc in sufficent quality to read. So I'm just going to paste how this fight went down. But before we get into the battle, here is the load out I gave each unit in the tourney.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gPuMGGaaTeL3yb0TlrsaGvjnvmok6mBhAbGFG8ya2pM/edit?usp=sharing

I chose to give units associated weapons and, for the sake of weapon triangle variety, I gave each unit a Silver weapon on their other weapon ranks if no suitable weapon was available. If anyone notices anything that's incorrect or missing, do tell me. For now though, on to Marth vs Seteth.

ROUND 1, no weapons, no skills

Spoiler

 

Marth	33	24	0	18	27	35	17	1	53.5	58	26.5	19.5	6.476523674
	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res	Hit	Eva	Crit	Weight/Con	Move
Seteth	51	30	17	25	27	16	21	11	58	48.5	20.5	6.55	9.666959856

 

Both units have 100% hit chance. Marth has 11% crit chance.

Seteth struck dealing 13 damage!

Marth counter attacks dealing 3 damage!

Seteth HP = 51

Marth HP = 33

Marth struck dealing 3 damage!

Seteth counter attacks dealing 13 damage!

Marth HP = 20

Seteth HP = 48

Seteth struck dealing 13 damage!

Marth counter attacks dealing 3 damage!

Seteth HP = 45

Marth HP = 7

Marth struck dealing 3 damage!

Seteth counter attacks dealing 13 damage!

Marth is dead.

Seteth HP = 42

 

 

ROUND 2: Weapons, no skills

Spoiler

 

Weapon Triangle	Physical	Falchion A	12							100			7
WTD	Marth	46	24	0	18	27	35	17	1	53.5	58	26.5	19.5	6.476523674
		HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res	Hit	Eva	Crit	Weight/Con	Move
WTA	Seteth	54	30	17	25	27	16	21	11	58	48.5	20.5	6.55	9.666959856
Weapon Triangle	Physical	Spear of Assal	14							85		10	9
		Ochain Shield						6					4

Seteth has 100% chance. Marth has 90% hit chance. Marth has 11% crit.

Seteth struck dealing 27 damage!

Marth counter attacks dealing 9 damage!

Boom! Critical! Marth dealt 27 damage!

Seteth HP = 18

Marth HP = 19

Marth struck dealing 9 damage!

Seteth counter attacks dealing 27 damage!

Marth is dead.

Seteth HP = 9

 

 

Suffice to say Seteth is the clear winner. Round 3 isn't even worth simulating. Seteth can kill Marth with a single use of Swift Strikes before Marth even has a chance to counter. Join us tomorrow where we'll see Tibarn face off against Hector!

As lauded as Hector is as a unit in Blazing Blade, that's just in Blazing Blade. I reckon Tibarn will win that one due to doubling ability.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Jotari

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Maybe allow for one use of a combat art, or chance-based combat skill (i.e. Ike's Aether) per matchup? That way, those tools can factor in, without necessarily being overwhelming. To totally disallow them, I fear, would remove some of the unique traits each Lord offers.

Also, if Alm is using any combat art, it should be Double Lion with the Royal Sword. Brave damage GG.

That's kind of the catch 22. If combat arts aren't allowed, but proc skills are, then that's unfair to the combat arts users who are in games without proc skills. And if either of them use it, it's unfair to the units from games without skills at all. On the other hand, Aether is a defining part of Ike as a unit and skills are vitally important in the games with them. So I think I'll allow both and just let the Elibe and Archanean characters suffer for it. They're, at least, getting the advantage of two full rounds without any skills.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Jotari