Making Wary Fighter more interesting

[AnonymousSpeed]

I'm not a big fan of Wary Fighter, personally. Irrelevant to its usefulness as a skill, it's just not a very interesting design. It basically just turns speed into a dump stat- you ignore a weakness of armor knights instead of working around it or turning it to your favor. I think that kinda sucks, so let's talk about what a better skill for Level 5 Generals would be.

One of the interesting things about Heroes is that being really slow can actually be an advantage, because it helps you build specials faster when you get doubled. Fates already has a somewhat similar mechanic in the form Dual Guard. Getting doubled will actually help your shield gauge fill up faster, which can actually make Wary Fighter a disadvantage when you're getting attacked by weak but fast enemies.

A better version of Wary Fighter, with the same core idea of making knight's low speed less detrimental to their defense, could instead help their shield gauge build up faster. Or, maybe it would make it so the lead unit builds shield gauge faster while the knight is in support stance. Maybe it could even be both- but since this skill isn't tied to the class, it couldn't make it build too much faster. Maybe just +3 instead of +2 each time the unit is attacked, but I really don't have any good numbers in mind. Perhaps they can even build shield gauge (just more slowly) when not paired up.

Something like this might also make for a good intrinsic property of armored units, to give them some advantage like a mounted unit's boosted movement, instead of such classes just coming with an armor weakness.

[Shaky Jones]

23 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

One of the interesting things about Heroes is that being really slow can actually be an advantage, because it helps you build specials faster when you get doubled. Fates already has a somewhat similar mechanic in the form Dual Guard. Getting doubled will actually help your shield gauge fill up faster, which can actually make Wary Fighter a disadvantage when you're getting attacked by weak but fast enemies.

Although not entirely similar, it reminds me of how Astra is much more useful in Fayes due to the dual guard mechanic. Normally, I'm not the biggest fan of 2.5 damage for 5 weapon usages, or even just dealing more damage based on a 10% to 15% proc rate, but in Fates, you're effectively getting a full refill on your gage, and weapons don't break either.

26 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

A better version of Wary Fighter, with the same core idea of making knight's low speed less detrimental to their defense, could instead help their shield gauge build up faster. Or, maybe it would make it so the lead unit builds shield gauge faster while the knight is in support stance. Maybe it could even be both- but since this skill isn't tied to the class, it couldn't make it build too much faster. Maybe just +3 instead of +2 each time the unit is attacked, but I really don't have any good numbers in mind. Perhaps they can even build shield gauge (just more slowly) when not paired up.

Id either have it be the idea of gaining a dual gauge sans partner, or having the gain increased to 3 when being the leader, as I'd like for armors to be more than just stat backpacks. They'd just be paired to horse units or a Camilla all day. I think them gaining it as a lead pair up is in character to the class, as one can imagine that their partner is frail and in need of tanking, and the armor does his job better than a standard beefy unit by blocking as many hits as possible, using the thick armor to frequently let blows land on parts of the armor that can't be penetrated. Its more immersive than just magically gaining a skill that just makes armors not slow anymore, in a sense. 

30 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

One of the interesting things about Heroes

is how easy it is to uninstall

[AnonymousSpeed]

45 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

is how easy it is to uninstall

Undoubtedly its best feature.

45 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

Although not entirely similar, it reminds me of how Astra is much more useful in Fayes due to the dual guard mechanic. Normally, I'm not the biggest fan of 2.5 damage for 5 weapon usages, or even just dealing more damage based on a 10% to 15% proc rate, but in Fates, you're effectively getting a full refill on your gage, and weapons don't break either.

The other kind-of-good one is Sol, which also (and more explicitly) boosts your durability. Meanwhile Luna sucks.

45 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

Id either have it be the idea of gaining a dual gauge sans partner, or having the gain increased to 3 when being the leader, as I'd like for armors to be more than just stat backpacks. They'd just be paired to horse units or a Camilla all day. I think them gaining it as a lead pair up is in character to the class, as one can imagine that their partner is frail and in need of tanking, and the armor does his job better than a standard beefy unit by blocking as many hits as possible, using the thick armor to frequently let blows land on parts of the armor that can't be penetrated. Its more immersive than just magically gaining a skill that just makes armors not slow anymore, in a sense.

Oooooh, very nice point. I like that way of looking at it. Much immersion.

[Shadow Mir]

34 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

The other kind-of-good one is Sol, which also (and more explicitly) boosts your durability.

I would agree - if I was looking at Sol from a superficial perspective, that is. Or if we were talking about pre-Awakening Sol. As is, Sol is much too finicky for me to consider it good, let alone decent; in any situation, I'd consider a chance to drain half the damage dealt that's less than a Scald burn for most of, if not the whole game hard to justify running, especially when it's win-more at best (it might only really appreciably make a difference on an uber tank like Xander or Benny... who generally have enough durability that it's not warranted).

[AnonymousSpeed]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would agree - if

Get on topic or get out.

[LoneRecon400]

I think a good of way of making it intreseting would be to halve the effects of all debuffs on top of its current effect.

Debuffs can very threatening on the late game, so having a way to directly counter it gives General a unique niche that can't be found anywhere else. It'd be an actual good trade off between being able to double and being bulky.

Edited November 6, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[AnonymousSpeed]

8 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I think a good of way of making it intreseting would be to halve the effects of all debuffs on top of its current effect.

Debuffs can very threatening on the late game, so having a way to directly counter it gives General a unique niche that can't be found anywhere else. It'd be an actual good trade off between being able to double and being bulky.

I think I saw a suggestion like that, that armors get debuff resistance as their "type" ability, in some other post many moons ago, but I can't remember quite where or by whom. It's a neat idea, though if it also applied to Great Knight, General would still probably come up short by comparison.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

I suppose one difficulty would be the question of how much math you want in a skill description?

If we take WF, block all doubling and then say turn speed into extra stats like HIT/Crit/AVO/DODGE then how´d you put that in the skills description to make sense?

Perhaps turning the % thresholds from skill based to DEF based for defensive procc skills? Then again, that doesn´t go too well with Fates AI.

At the same time, if WF turns speed into another stat or stats but it mainly benefits slow units, that´d just make it weird.

Alternatively, a Wary Fighter might just attack once and only be attacked once, but will also always attack first - in the context of fates there´d be some fun stuff to do.

[SnowFire]

I think whether Wary Fighter is "interesting" heavily depends on its environment.  If Wary Fighter was stuck into a ROM hack of FE6 through FE12, then I agree, it wouldn't be great.  Those games are heavily about checking stats and matchups, and this skill just throws the most important one out the window.

In more complicated FEs that have a bunch of fancy skills flying around, Wary Fighter is fine.  It's being counterbalanced by similar nonsense on the "other" side, it's suitably powerful and flavorful, and it helps keep things simpler when it works.  For example, Fates is famously an offender of having reasonably simple base rules that can be very complicated to reason about once you try to figure out if your unit will survive if sent to peek out into enemy range - can they position for pair-ups?  Will they move out of the way to get an optimal attack?  etc.  Wary Fighter is being a good guy in such a situation, by making an already very complicated situation a bit simpler to reason about.  FE Heroes is the tip here - even at launch, units could still double their way through Wary Fighter with the right skills equipped, and it's even more common now to have stuff that lets an entire area ignore forced follow-ups / follow-up denial like WF.  So it's more like "here's a threat to think about if you don't come packing Null Follow-Up or your own forced follow-up to counteract WF," but both of those are common these days, so it's not a huge ask.

[AnonymousSpeed]

I'd prefer simple skills be more like Strength +2 where they actually interact with instead of negating mechanics.

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 11/6/2022 at 8:50 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

A better version of Wary Fighter, with the same core idea of making knight's low speed less detrimental to their defense, could instead help their shield gauge build up faster. Or, maybe it would make it so the lead unit builds shield gauge faster while the knight is in support stance. Maybe it could even be both- but since this skill isn't tied to the class, it couldn't make it build too much faster. Maybe just +3 instead of +2 each time the unit is attacked, but I really don't have any good numbers in mind. Perhaps they can even build shield gauge (just more slowly) when not paired up.

 

I don't like anything which makes Pair Up stronger, since as others have observed, it's currently the overall-stronger state to be in compared to attack stance (for all that the latter certainly has its niche, at least). I'd prefer that the skill makes unpaired units stronger, if anything.

In light of that I'd propose the following:

Wary Fighter: Halves damage of enemy followup attacks, and negates enemy support attacks entirely, even if unpaired.

Your speed still matters, but it reduces the penalty for bad speed. And it's still useful if you're paired, just not as useful as if you're unpaired.

 

[deskita]

On 11/8/2022 at 1:45 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

and negates enemy support attacks entirely, even if unpaired

I'm not especially fond of this change solely factoring in enemies having this skill, as attack stance is usually a pretty great way to get a one round kill on enemies with Wary Fighter and that just shuts it down leaving braves as the best way to deal with them which usually means you'll want to use Pair up in maps with enemies with the skill.

[Dark Holy Elf]

 

On 11/9/2022 at 12:25 PM, deskita said:

I'm not especially fond of this change solely factoring in enemies having this skill, as attack stance is usually a pretty great way to get a one round kill on enemies with Wary Fighter and that just shuts it down leaving braves as the best way to deal with them which usually means you'll want to use Pair up in maps with enemies with the skill.

That's a good point, actually - I hadn't considered what the skill would do on the enemy end.

Although I find that at the moment, I always use pair up to deal with the general/berserker room in Conquest 26 anyway, which is the main place I associate with Wary Fighter enemies.

[EdeaCreamer]

Could key the skill to only trigger after the unit selects the Wait command, or perhaps to only function while the unit isn't in Guard Stance, or only if the unit is above/below a certain HP threshold (probably above, much like with Three Houses' Quick Riposte ability).

I think its best uses for the player are 1) when wanting to hold a chokepoint with the unit in a Tag Team formation, and 2) when the unit is wielding a weapon that can't make follow-up attacks anyway (such as Javelins/Hand Axes, your Avatar's Dragonstone, the Nosferatu tome, etc.).  For the most part it's an enemy tool intended to make Generals a massive pain in the butt to deal with (and it succeeds at this).  Anyone in Guard Stance is actively hindered by this ability for already-stated reasons.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I like Wary Fighter, but there is a solid point about it negating Speed. My simple change would be, have it only activate on enemy phase. So, a unit with Wary Fighter can double... or get doubled... if they initiate combat. This would emphasize the enemy-phase oriented nature of Armor Knights, while also allowing faster units, who just dip into General, not to gimp their own offense. Plus, it'd make dealing with slow enemies with Wary Fighter slightly less tedious, as you could goad them into attacking on enemy phase (i.e. their "player phase") and getting doubled in return. Talk shit, get hit.

[AnonymousSpeed]

20 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My simple change would be, have it only activate on enemy phase.

Plus, it'd make dealing with slow enemies with Wary Fighter slightly less tedious, as you could goad them into attacking on enemy phase (i.e. their "player phase") and getting doubled in return.

So, in Fates language, "if enemy initiates combat"?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

So, in Fates language, "if enemy initiates combat"?

Maybe? I don't know Fates language very well. I would say "when under attack". That way, it's clear it activates on Enemy Phase (for Player Units) and Player Phase (for Enemy Units).

[67chrome]

I'd probably do something like:

If unit acts 2nd, reduces the damage of all of foe's follow-up attacks by 75%

Still lets fast units attack multiple times into it, adds some interesting countermeasures to Vantage and Brave weapons, favors slower guys in a more interesting and dynamic way, shield gauge still goes up for more full-charge big-brain moments, offers something a little more interesting to units not named Orochi.

 

At least if tried keeping the spirit of Wary Fighter alive with a different mechanic for the skill.

 

One of the key issues of armor-knights in FE is that they're terrible at finding opportunities to utilize their fantastic combat, not that their combat is lacking in a meaningful capacity. Good map design also tends to punish their low mobility or repetitive EP murder-machine playstyle.

 

Obstruct (ideally as their Tier 1 skill) would probably be a lot more effective at making armor knights do something more interesting with their bulk.

Probably in place of DEF+2, I don't understand why minor stat boosts are Skills instead of the bonus tied to accessories/hats/rings. Being able to swap around a Spd+2 Bandana or Def+2 Helmet would be interesting to hit key benhcmarks, while the current system just offloads some of a classes stats in the most "this isn't even a skill" fashion. Which feels a little aggressive about highlighting what a unit should be good at, while also being completly redundant with the more elegant solution of just not breaking down base stats into stats and skills that most other FE games went with.

 

I guess armor knights could also get something like an Aura that benefits from their stat spread, making them slightly more appealing targets to the enemy AI relative to their allies, while also acting as a shield-brother to their allies.

Something like "provides allies within a 2 tile radius bonus DEF equal to 15% of the user's DEF."

[starburst]

On 11/6/2022 at 1:50 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

I'm not a big fan of Wary Fighter, personally. Irrelevant to its usefulness as a skill, it's just not a very interesting design. It basically just turns speed into a dump stat- you ignore a weakness of armor knights instead of working around it or turning it to your favor. I think that kinda sucks, so let's talk about what a better skill for Level 5 Generals would be.

You are focusing on the skill itself rather than on its purpose to Generals, right?
Because I find Wary Fighter an awesome skill for Generals. It basically halves the damage for them, the slowest units on the map. Their following skill goes further and halves the damage from all physical weapons.
Let a General be a Paladin or Great Knight for a couple of levels and one has the perfect front-liner: +3 Attack, Shelter, Wary Fighter, Pavise, Aegis or Luna.

I would not make Wary Fighter more exploitable. It fits its class perfectly: a General is a seasoned warrior who cannot be hit twice by any foe.

Edited February 5, 2023 by starburst

[67chrome]

20 hours ago, starburst said:

Because I find Wary Fighter an awesome skill for Generals. It basically halves the damage for them, the slowest units on the map. Their following skill goes further and halves the damage from all physical weapons.

0 x 1/2 is still 0.

 

Taking to much damage never really struck me as an issue with Knights and Generals. Not taking enough damage is frequently Benny's issue in CQ, as it means he only has a player phase.

Also: the ethos of Wary Fighter on Generals never struck me as:

"here's what Generals need to be even better"

so much as it is:

"suck less".

 

20 hours ago, starburst said:

Let a General be a Paladin or Great Knight for a couple of levels and one has the perfect front-liner: +3 Attack, Shelter, Wary Fighter, Pavise, Aegis or Luna.

I would not make Wary Fighter more exploitable. It fits its class perfectly: a General is a seasoned warrior who cannot be hit twice by any foe.

I feel like that's the perfect front-line fighter for the enemy AI.

Or the AI in general for a general, fantastic green-unit set.

 

Under player control Pavise and Aegis do nothing far more often than they do something though.

Also Wary + %DR is more about stalling a player long enough to get overwhelmed. Potentially by multiple such Wary+%DR units, were one of the player's units will eventually succumb to a Luna.

 

When it's 12 vs. 45 instead of 45 vs. 12, stall-tactics and impressive combat prowess (that needs to be stretched over the course of ~4 rounds) is far less useful. Getting surrounded is the easiest way to loose a military engagement.

 

That aside: I've rarely found a lack of combat prowess or durability to be a meaningful issue of knights & generals.

There main problem for me is that solid combat (spread over a few rounds) is the only thing they have going for them, and this happens in a game were pretty much everything can kill an enemy in 6 out of their 7 turns that matter. Not much of a niche for "only combat, nothing else!" in Fire Emblem.

[starburst]

Ah!, I do not even use Generals; I need my two front-liners to be dynamic. But I still think that Wary Fighter suits the Generals, lore- and mechanic wise.

Conquest does not demand as much Defence as people believe, yet the # 1 complain of numerous people is that their units cannot "tank" enough in multiple areas of different maps. Hence my comment about a General's being able to be "the perfect front-liner." Not for me, but I am not the one complaining.

 

10 minutes ago, 67chrome said:

Under player control Pavise and Aegis do nothing far more often than they do something though.

Bad logic. Are you also one of those odd people who disregard the meal bonuses because of its randomness? A chance of a given benefit is always better than a certainty of nothing. Generals should have over 30 % chance of activating Pavise and Aegis per hit.

[67chrome]

6 hours ago, starburst said:

Bad logic....Generals should have over 30 % chance of activating Pavise and Aegis per hit.

Lol.

30% activation rate is a 70% chance to do nothing.

 

These skills are also pretty weak in what they ultimately accomplish, and aren't worth that much in terms of +Def/Res.

With a 30% activation rate vs. a fairly standard 20-Dmg hit, these block 10 damage 30% of the time (for the right range increment).

With their powers combined it's the rough equivalent of ~3/3 Def/Res spread over 2 skill-slots. Will it activate vs. the hit that really matters?

70% of the time that answer is nope.

 

Heck, against 4 hits there's still a 24% chance the combo does nothing, which usually makes ignoring these exist more helpful than planning around their existance.

 

The more hits a unit can take the more consistent the activations become, but then there's the issue that being able to innately take that much damage makes these less valuable.

A unit who only takes 10 damage per hit is only blocking 5 damage or getting  ~1.5/1.5 in Def/Res value on average out of the combo.

Running Def+2 and Res+2 instead would net better results at that point.

.....................

 

These are also level 35 skills.

There are a lot of better alternatives at the point either is available, I wouldn't actively pursue them for a build.

Edited February 6, 2023 by 67chrome

[Shadow Mir]

On 2/5/2023 at 6:22 PM, starburst said:

Bad logic. Are you also one of those odd people who disregard the meal bonuses because of its randomness? A chance of a given benefit is always better than a certainty of nothing. Generals should have over 30 % chance of activating Pavise and Aegis per hit.

I'd say your logic is the bad one here. Sure, Pavise and Aegis look helpful at first, but... those are only particularly useful if they're blocking a lot of damage. The thing is, those are not the kinds of situations you want to be in in the first place. Counter sucked for the player in Awakening for much the same reason. Anyways, a 30% chance is not good odds, as that's a 70% chance nothing happens. Generals in particular, despite having Pavise tied to them, don't particularly need it.

[starburst]

On 2/6/2023 at 3:58 AM, 67chrome said:

30% activation rate is a 70% chance to do nothing.

So… when you are one of the final twelve candidates for a position, you simply skip the last interview because your probability of getting it is 1/ 12?

I love Tom Brady. Should he simply concede games instead of attempting last-minute drives with no time outs and 80 yards to go against a top defence?
He just broke the record of such winning drives.

Please, kindly tell my colleague that his wife should stop chemotherapy, for the odds are against her.

A chance towards accomplishing a goal is better than the certainty of nothing.
Fire Emblem’s assigning probabilities to actions is an entertaining exercise to test our perception of chance.

Edited February 10, 2023 by starburst

[67chrome]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:42 PM, starburst said:

A chance towards accomplishing a goal is better than the certainty of nothing.

Sure.

And shades of that logic are a good enough reason to use %active skills and take a chance every now and then.

 

In the context of your perfect front-liner build (or really any build for that matter), Pavise and Aegis do have 3 major flaws with this line of thinking though:

................

 

1) The cost.

Pavise and Aegis are level 35 skills and require re-classing (and an S or A+ support) to access; which coincides with a point in the game were feasibly ~any skill is accessible and ~any build could come online.

If a unit can run better skills at this point, they have no excuse to do otherwise.

 

................

2) The weak effect.

Pavise and Aegis only block 5 damage against 10-damage attacks, and that happening 30% of the time is the rough equivalent of ~1.5/1.5 Def/Res spread over 2/5ths of a unit's skill-slots.

 

Even at 50% activation: these work 1/2 of the time to block 1/2 damage against 1/2 of the weapons in the game for a 1/8 boost in overall power.

Which is like...+5 HP for a unit with 40 HP.

Or like ~1.8 Strength or Magic on a unit that's doing 15 damage.

Or like +0.625 Spd on a unit that's 5 Spd off from doubling or denying a follow-up attack.

 

................

3) The wager.

What do these skills risk and what do they gain?

Best case scenario these wager 1 healer/vulnerary turn spent healing that might get to be used for something else, but 50% DR means a unit is taking damage even when these activate. More powerful skills (or skills that more directly save a turn healing) can all save a turn healing as well.

 

Otherwise the wager is "this unit dies" in exchange for maybe being able to EP 4 dudes instead of 3. A lot is on the line for very little.

This later wager also has massive issues in consistency.

Assuming Pavise and Aegis have a 50% activation rate somehow and a unit only needs 1 activation during the 4-foe enemy phase;

This has an ~88% chance of working the first time it's tested.

But make the gamble twice in a run and we're looking at a ~77% chance of success.

Then ~67% for 3.

59% for 4.

~51% for the 5th 

~45% for the 6th.

~39% for the 7th.

~34% for the 8th.

~30% for the 9th.

~26% for the 10th.

 

This is also the fundamental problem with Avo tanks, a units going to eat to many consecutive hits sooner or later or even sooner, being a surefire recipe for disappointment.

................

 

Anyways:

Pavise and Aegis are bad skills.

Being able to survive double the damage if a unit's super-duper lucky is also such a weird mood in a game were units can get infinitely durable with enough Def, Res, or Avo.

Also they're level 35, in 2 different fully promoted end-game class-lines, and you can run pretty much anything else when they're available.

Edited February 12, 2023 by 67chrome