Tales of Symphonia Mafia Ver. 1.0

[Helios]

It's because your switch to j00 seemed convenient since all of a sudden people started talking about him and you pop in and go "hey I think j00 is scummy for such and such reasons (which are really reasons other people have stated already) I'm gonna vote for him". Your reason for unvoting Marth was vague "ehh I still scumread him but meh" and it just seemed like you switched off him because people were attacking your vote on him. Your reasoning for your read on Obviam was half echo of what others said, and half you giving your reasoning as to why you put up votals. The rest of your play has been less than satisfactory as well so I'm comfortable with lynching you atm.

[scorri]

I'd like to announce that there is a redirect in the game, and besides that, I'll reread in a bit.

[Bluedoom]

I never tunneled on anyone.

Again I didn't tunnel on you two just because you guys were my top scumspecs.

I spot a contradiction here. First sentence implies you didn't tunnel at all.

Second sentence says you admit that you tunneled us but it wasn't 'just because we were your top scumspects.' Ok, why did you tunnel then?

Reconsidering =/= waffling. Your theory about BBM and I being scumbuddies went down the drain, and when a theory goes wrong it is normal to reconsider. That is, if you care about such inconsistencies.

Your earlier point was I'm not contributing. Too bad, I am now. Furthermore, you're nitpicking HALF of my reads. The other half doesn't have meta only, does it? Maybe its echoing but its still contribution. I'm gonna echo Obviam and say that you handwaved my questioning about you ignoring JB(and JB hasn't done a whole lot btw). You keep ignoring my actual contributions and nitpick on minor stuff- I'm not SOLELY using meta like you claim and my case on you is in fact hardly about meta and more about your inconsistencies, bad logic and grasping. Show me these reads where I SOLELY use meta- I'll have you know that I used it on Shin and Mancer, and they were both inactive so its not that. Bizz? Well she's not playing anymore and your read on her was meta-based so that argument is void. Apart from these 3 please, your Honour, do tell where I've been SOLELY using meta?

You don't even have a case on me anymore. Your case involved Falsely claiming that I SOLELY use meta when loads of people are inactive, and me not claiming when I was the top scumspect which is plain grasping and you aren't even trying.

Marth and BBM's reads feel a little fake to me. Half of Marth's reads have to do with meta while the others sound oddly similar to what others have been blaming them for. This is obviously just spec, but his BBM read could be a bus attempt to gain towncred while the stronger SB read is a lynch attempt. BBM's case on Shin seems like an easy vote since Shin really hasn't done much, is new to the game, and doesn't seem to really know what he's doing. BBM's case on him has good logic of his own while adding in what others have said, but it feels like it's trying too hard to look legit and making a mountain out of a mole hill. I mean I find him scummy as well, but not quite as much as others. It also feels like lately he's been shrugging off a lot of the attacks on him, maybe in fear of looking "overly defensive".

If SB was a lynch attempt doesn't that mean you should be finding SB more town? Yeah opinions can change sure especially after BBM's flip but you think I'm scum still so the "SB is a mislynch attempt" should still come into play. In which case why are you advocating an SB lynch now? Do you now advocate that SB and I are buddies now? Because your latest stance is contradictory.

[Helios]

I spot a contradiction here. First sentence implies you didn't tunnel at all.

Second sentence says you admit that you tunneled us but it wasn't 'just because we were your top scumspects.' Ok, why did you tunnel then?

Reconsidering =/= waffling. Your theory about BBM and I being scumbuddies went down the drain, and when a theory goes wrong it is normal to reconsider. That is, if you care about such inconsistencies.

Your earlier point was I'm not contributing. Too bad, I am now. Furthermore, you're nitpicking HALF of my reads. The other half doesn't have meta only, does it? Maybe its echoing but its still contribution. I'm gonna echo Obviam and say that you handwaved my questioning about you ignoring JB(and JB hasn't done a whole lot btw). You keep ignoring my actual contributions and nitpick on minor stuff- I'm not SOLELY using meta like you claim and my case on you is in fact hardly about meta and more about your inconsistencies, bad logic and grasping. Show me these reads where I SOLELY use meta- I'll have you know that I used it on Shin and Mancer, and they were both inactive so its not that. Bizz? Well she's not playing anymore and your read on her was meta-based so that argument is void. Apart from these 3 please, your Honour, do tell where I've been SOLELY using meta?

You don't even have a case on me anymore. Your case involved Falsely claiming that I SOLELY use meta when loads of people are inactive, and me not claiming when I was the top scumspect which is plain grasping and you aren't even trying.

If SB was a lynch attempt doesn't that mean you should be finding SB more town? Yeah opinions can change sure especially after BBM's flip but you think I'm scum still so the "SB is a mislynch attempt" should still come into play. In which case why are you advocating an SB lynch now? Do you now advocate that SB and I are buddies now? Because your latest stance is contradictory.

That's not a contradiction at all. Both sentences I said I'm not tunneling. In the second one I explained that doing that is NOT tunneling. Nice try buddy.

Yeah my theory that I made half way in the phase. If BBM hadn't died last night it's not like I'd push for his lynch. So just because I was wrong about BBM HAS to mean I'm wrong about you, even though there's so many reasons as to why you're probable scum?

It's pseudocontribution and like I said before your ratio of defending yourself to actually scumhunting is way too high for the average townie. Your attacking me because I'm voting you still. You've even admitted to echoing, which isn't really contribution. You tried to defend yourself by attacking why I didn't mention JB, and it's obvious I didn't mention him because I didn't have a great read on him yet. I haven't ignored any of your major contributions; I've mentioned everything you've done and I've mentioned all the things I've found scummy about you.

You've also solely used meta on your Iris read, CR read (not player meta but noobtown meta), and had gut reads on BBM and SB if that counts. So Mancer, Shin, Bizz, CR, and Iris. All solely based off meta. That's 5 reads. Your other reads were gut reads. None of your reads so far have had much evidences, you haven't had strong cases for any of them, and most importantly you haven't pushed a single lynch for very long at all, which proves you're just trying to garner momentum for a quick mislynch.

I even said it was just spec and wasn't really something I put a lot of weight on. BBM flipping town put all that out of the question. Yeah it's always possible that you two are buddies. It's pretty common for buddies to find each other scummy to try and gain towncred. One of your flips will make things clearer for me, and atm you two have a higher probability of flipping scum than others in the game IMO.

I don't have a case on you? Really now? I'll make a nice clear one for you later based on all the things I've said so far to prove why this statement is utter bullshit. Just give me a bit it'll take a while.

[Bluedoom]

You're handwaiving my CR read as meta- its what I call a scumtel/towntelll, not meta. By your argument calling someone scummy for bad logic is 'meta' in itself and not a scumtell. Yeah right. Btw I've revised my read on CR as possible third party FYI, are you even reading?

My read on Iris is meta? By far I said she'd be scummy only if I used meta, because otherwise she's neutral- you're starting to see a pattern here. I use meta on all the inactive players because they haven't contributed anything else other than post about one player. Its alright to use meta on these players but you're still gonna tunnel me anyway so lolol.

Nice try but 'just because' means that there WAS a reason to tunnel BBM and I but being the top two scumspects wasn't the only one. You can twist subjective stuff but english meanings are objective in this context and you can't twist the truth here buddy. If giving reasons after reasons to find me scummy(and they're all about grasping haha) and saying one of BBM and I MUST be scum isn't tunneling, I don't know what is.

My read on BBM wasn't gut because I voted him for his bad logic ED1 and I dropped it afterwards. And read my post where I voted SB: Our reasons for finding SB were VERY similar. So it isn't even a gut- are you gonna stop grasping? Yeah sure my method of communication is horrible but you can clearly see I voted SB because his reason for voting me was shit- that isn't even a gut read. You can continue grasping Helios. :3

Pseudo contribution is still better than like, half of the players in this game( I wouldn't call mine pseudo either.) Yes I admit to echoing, so do others, echoing isn't scummy itself. And you miss the point why I attacked JB- you attacked everyone on my wagon except JB, but he himself was simply echoing yours and Scorri's reasoning. Don't have a good read on JB? Perhaps you've been ignoring his posts and not scumhunting properly. Question is, why?

Now, with regards to your theory, because apparently you have discredited it, I'll show everyone how you're waffling:

You're trying to divert from the question even more now rather than answer it directly now, but I'll bite. Originally I thought only one of you was scum because I didn't think that scum would bring that much attention to themselves and to each other. It also seems like BBM lately has been distancing himself from you lately rather than attacking you. So at the moment I think you're buddies since you've both been pretty scummy so far, and I think that with all this pressure on you right now Marth you're going to try and bus your buddy to gain some towncred, while BBM is going to try and avoid direct confrontation from you so that there's a higher possibility of a mislynch (like the easy case on Shin).

The bold shows that you in fact DID put in some weight on that theory and were pretty confident in it. Now instead of BBM you'll probably replace it with SB but gg you're making highly convenient statements so i don't even need to say what is wrong with that. It wasn't 'just spec' until BBM's claim, definitely. And role doesn't tell alignment so we can't even PROVE that you would've acted differently if BBM wasn't killed.

This is really just a you vs me. I am not voting you because you still find me scummy, rather I'm voting you because of your piss-poor reasons (and I voted you first this phase so it isn't even me being mad because you still find me scummy because I couldn't have known you still find me scummy.)

[Helios]

You're handwaiving my CR read as meta- its what I call a scumtel/towntelll, not meta. By your argument calling someone scummy for bad logic is 'meta' in itself and not a scumtell. Yeah right. Btw I've revised my read on CR as possible third party FYI, are you even reading?

My read on Iris is meta? By far I said she'd be scummy only if I used meta, because otherwise she's neutral- you're starting to see a pattern here. I use meta on all the inactive players because they haven't contributed anything else other than post about one player. Its alright to use meta on these players but you're still gonna tunnel me anyway so lolol.

Nice try but 'just because' means that there WAS a reason to tunnel BBM and I but being the top two scumspects wasn't the only one. You can twist subjective stuff but english meanings are objective in this context and you can't twist the truth here buddy. If giving reasons after reasons to find me scummy(and they're all about grasping haha) and saying one of BBM and I MUST be scum isn't tunneling, I don't know what is.

My read on BBM wasn't gut because I voted him for his bad logic ED1 and I dropped it afterwards. And read my post where I voted SB: Our reasons for finding SB were VERY similar. So it isn't even a gut- are you gonna stop grasping? Yeah sure my method of communication is horrible but you can clearly see I voted SB because his reason for voting me was shit- that isn't even a gut read. You can continue grasping Helios. :3

Pseudo contribution is still better than like, half of the players in this game( I wouldn't call mine pseudo either.) Yes I admit to echoing, so do others, echoing isn't scummy itself. And you miss the point why I attacked JB- you attacked everyone on my wagon except JB, but he himself was simply echoing yours and Scorri's reasoning. Don't have a good read on JB? Perhaps you've been ignoring his posts and not scumhunting properly. Question is, why?

Now, with regards to your theory, because apparently you have discredited it, I'll show everyone how you're waffling:

The bold shows that you in fact DID put in some weight on that theory and were pretty confident in it. Now instead of BBM you'll probably replace it with SB but gg you're making highly convenient statements so i don't even need to say what is wrong with that. It wasn't 'just spec' until BBM's claim, definitely. And role doesn't tell alignment so we can't even PROVE that you would've acted differently if BBM wasn't killed.

This is really just a you vs me. I am not voting you because you still find me scummy, rather I'm voting you because of your piss-poor reasons (and I voted you first this phase so it isn't even me being mad because you still find me scummy because I couldn't have known you still find me scummy.)

I'm not handwaving it, it's meta. Regardless of whether you want to refer it to that or not, that still leaves 4 reads on people who are based solely on meta, and I know Shin, Mancer, and Bizz all had enough evidence to make cases on them without using meta. Iris is the only one that's understandable. And lol yes I've been reading, you changed your read on CR from newbtown, to newbscum, to now newbthirdparty, all in a short span. That's textbook waffling there son. Or are you going to tell me you "reconsidered" all this?

Quit victimizing yourself I'm not tunneling on you because you're you, I'm voting you because I think you're scummy and haven't done anything to prove why you're not.

Ironically, it's you who is twisting the language here. Like I said before, I was explaining that tunneling /= voting for your top two scumspecs or at least reading them scum. I clearly didn't solely focus on you two all game; I provided other reads and interacted with other players. I made that conjecture (I think one of Marth and BBM is scum) in the beginning of the game. Actually, I looked back on my vote post and I clearly stated, and I quote: "I think one of you two (BBM or Marth) is scum right now". Never once said "BBM or Marth MUST be scum" or anything of the sort, so you've been misquoting me, twisting my words, and taking things out of context. Town has no reason to do any of this to make a case on scum.

You said that your read on BBM was more gut than your read on SB. This is a direct quote from you right here to see where I'm coming from. Our SB reasoning is different: you voted him for his weak vote saying that you weren't contributing, and I read him as scum for his weak vote on you, claiming you were coasting even though the game just started, misrepping BBM"s vote, misrepping Bizz's reaction to my selfvote in RVS, said Bizz voted me when she didn't, and lately I don't like his j00 vote either. You're literally just making a small point and then throwing out words like "grasping" and "tunneling" to try and make your weak case look a little better and try and push a mislynch.

Your defenses about your bad play are, instead of changing your ways to prove people wrong, attacking other players for "being worse" than you. That's not a defense and that's horrible logic (it's a fallacy). Did you see how big that post I made was? It took me like half an hour to do. My bad if I don't talk about one guy because I didn't feel like I got enough of a read on him. You're trying to discredit all the reads I gave by saying I didn't talk about one person. Isn't this grasping for a reason to lynch me?

Lololol you're quoting something from a different post and putting it completely out of context. My spec was about how you could possibly be bussing BBM and trying to mislynch SB. But you're right, saying "I think" and "Originally I thought that" clearly shows that I think it's set in stone that this theory is absolute. I also don't have the right to change my theories, that's only something that you're allowed to do. My point is, you're setting a double standard by saying that you could change your read on CR, but I'm unable to change a theory I created off a little evidence at the beginning of the game when there isn't much to work off, or something that happened in midD1 when things were still progressing. So there was no waffling at all and again you're just throwing words out there to try and make a weak case look a little better.

Lol my reasoning is piss-poor? Seeing as I helped start the biggest wagon last phase it's obvious that I, as well as others, clearly don't agree with that. Also, this is clearly a continuation from your vote on me last phase, so yeah this is definitely that. Then again, your scumreads seem to be from people who have voted for you at some point, so there's that to look into as well.

[Helios]

My case for why Marth is scum

(written in Impact font for extra impact)

• Didn't like original BBM vote; felt opportunistic, and wasn't great logic.
• Handwaved the argument between Prims and Bizz as "lol intown fighting" and didn't really clarify it until pestered about it.
• Waffled on scum!Prims read by saying "ehh he's not scummy for stacking his vote on Helios, but ehh I've stacked votes as scum before so idk".
• Bad reactions to people who voted him.
• Prolonged giving reads of people earlier in the game due to "not enough evidence" when there was clearly enough evidence to give decent reads of players off.
• Most of his reads consist of meta and echoes of other players, and not much original contribution. While using meta for reads is okay and understandable, having 4-5 reads SOLELY based on meta isn't good, and feels like scum squandering to create a plausible case for a mislynch.
• High defense:scumhunting ratio. Yes he's been attacked for most of the game; however, all he's done is defend himself, attack random players on his wagon, and then give off some lesser reads on more inactive players.
• Attacks me for not having a read on JB, when a few hours before he stated here that he also felt that he didn't have enough of a read on JB yet. Double standard much?
• Sidesteps accusations or questions by instead claiming that others are doing worse than him, which is pretty much admitting that he's guilty of doing something scummy.
• Attacks me for voting him while providing solid evidence,
• Throws out buzzwords like "tunneling", "grasping", and "waffling" without any backing to it.
• Misreps cases, takes quotations out of context, and misquotes posts in order to try and pull a bullshit case on me.
• Gives out a lot of doublestandards and contradicts his own logic (says reconsidering isn't scummy since he changed his opinion on CR from newbtown to newbscum to now thirdparty, but says that I'm not allowed to change my theory from ED1)
• A lesser reason but something that annoys me is how he victimizes himself too much. I've only seen scum do this before (like Life and Shinori off the top of my head)

But yeah I only had one or two reasons that I continued to grasp on my case for Marth.

[Bluedoom]

I'm not handwaving it, it's meta. Regardless of whether you want to refer it to that or not, that still leaves 4 reads on people who are based solely on meta, and I know Shin, Mancer, and Bizz all had enough evidence to make cases on them without using meta. Iris is the only one that's understandable. And lol yes I've been reading, you changed your read on CR from newbtown, to newbscum, to now newbthirdparty, all in a short span. That's textbook waffling there son. Or are you going to tell me you "reconsidered" all this?

I disagree that Mancer is scum just because he sheeped my wagon(even if I find that vote annoying) and he hasn't posted anything since so I cant even make a case on him. Your read on Bizz was based on meta too so don't dish out that same shit at me. I had a null on her because I can't understand her as well as you do.

Quit victimizing yourself I'm not tunneling on you because you're you, I'm voting you because I think you're scummy and haven't done anything to prove why you're not.

Uh how was that victimizing? When I say you're gonna tunnel on me, its because you wanna push a mislynch, not because I'm me.

Ironically, it's you who is twisting the language here. Like I said before, I was explaining that tunneling /= voting for your top two scumspecs or at least reading them scum. I clearly didn't solely focus on you two all game; I provided other reads and interacted with other players. I made that conjecture (I think one of Marth and BBM is scum) in the beginning of the game. Actually, I looked back on my vote post and I clearly stated, and I quote: "I think one of you two (BBM or Marth) is scum right now". Never once said "BBM or Marth MUST be scum" or anything of the sort, so you've been misquoting me, twisting my words, and taking things out of context. Town has no reason to do any of this to make a case on scum.

Yes except those reads were "Your vote is bad but I think BBM and Marth are worse." which is all cool because hey look, I've been addressing people on my wagon too. The difference is because I'M THE VICTIM I look like I'm defending. If I wasn't the target it'd look totally pro-town trust me.

You said that your read on BBM was more gut than your read on SB. This is a direct quote from you right here to see where I'm coming from. Our SB reasoning is different: you voted him for his weak vote saying that you weren't contributing, and I read him as scum for his weak vote on you, claiming you were coasting even though the game just started, misrepping BBM"s vote, misrepping Bizz's reaction to my selfvote in RVS, said Bizz voted me when she didn't, and lately I don't like his j00 vote either. You're literally just making a small point and then throwing out words like "grasping" and "tunneling" to try and make your weak case look a little better and try and push a mislynch.

I'm obvsly not going to be confident in an ED1 read and its weak hence I signed it off as gut but I'll concede this to you. I cannot argue that my BBM vote was highly pro-town but I will still say that my SB vote was so no gut. How is voting someone for their poor logic a GUT READ? And fine I'll also concede that MUST isn't what you used but you were definitely strong about our lynches and were certain about lynching one of us so fine.

Your defenses about your bad play are, instead of changing your ways to prove people wrong, attacking other players for "being worse" than you. That's not a defense and that's horrible logic (it's a fallacy). Did you see how big that post I made was? It took me like half an hour to do. My bad if I don't talk about one guy because I didn't feel like I got enough of a read on him. You're trying to discredit all the reads I gave by saying I didn't talk about one person. Isn't this grasping for a reason to lynch me?

Yeah ok its not my fault I can't get reads earlygame but that doesn't stop people from voting me now right? At that point I had no choice but to defend myself because loads of people were voting me and I already stated my reads about those who weren't voting me but apparently the only thing that goes to your head is that I'm defending myself.

Lololol you're quoting something from a different post and putting it completely out of context. My spec was about how you could possibly be bussing BBM and trying to mislynch SB. But you're right, saying "I think" and "Originally I thought that" clearly shows that I think it's set in stone that this theory is absolute. I also don't have the right to change my theories, that's only something that you're allowed to do. My point is, you're setting a double standard by saying that you could change your read on CR, but I'm unable to change a theory I created off a little evidence at the beginning of the game when there isn't much to work off, or something that happened in midD1 when things were still progressing. So there was no waffling at all and again you're just throwing words out there to try and make a weak case look a little better.

Uh ftr I asked you that question wayyy back so I could catch contradictions like these. Proposing such a theory basically misreps me and the time at which you proposed this theory was the time at which you asked me to make a fuckton of reads and evidences, good lord. So I will apply this same reasoning to you: There was fucking all the info you had to make cases on people and instead you spend time making theories. Ok. It wasn't even the beginning of the game when you made that shit up and now you're going back on your word? Wat.

Lol my reasoning is piss-poor? Seeing as I helped start the biggest wagon last phase it's obvious that I, as well as others, clearly don't agree with that. Also, this is clearly a continuation from your vote on me last phase, so yeah this is definitely that. Then again, your scumreads seem to be from people who have voted for you at some point, so there's that to look into as well.

So you take pride in starting the bandwagon with the most shittiest logic, cool. Uh, yeah it iS a continuation from last phase because I think your logic is shit, but instead you keep saying I'm butthurt over your vote on me and I'm using meta on you when the only thing I said was if you pull off bullshit you're more likely to be scum.

[Bluedoom]

errr when have I said CR is newbscum? It went from newbtown to newb!SK and I never specifically stated that. she was newb!scum. When I voted her my reason was her stating she gor SK vibes from Shinand I admit it wasn't very clear.

I never waffled on scum!Prims because I said I could see why Bizz thinks he's scum, not that I agreed with her. I asked you about JB because he too should've pinged your scumdar when you kept yelling at me for echoing reads considering he echoed yours.

W/e we go in circles. You will continue to say I'm 'butthurt' over you voting me(trust me I would just attack everyone on my wagon then and tunnel on them) and I insist your reasons for voting me are piss-poor.

[MancerNecro]

I'm a little pumped out IRL, but I promise I'll try to read this tonight and come up with some scum reads by tomorrow morning. By the way, early Happy New Year everyone!

[Helios]

I disagree that Mancer is scum just because he sheeped my wagon(even if I find that vote annoying) and he hasn't posted anything since so I cant even make a case on him. Your read on Bizz was based on meta too so don't dish out that same shit at me. I had a null on her because I can't understand her as well as you do.

Uh how was that victimizing? When I say you're gonna tunnel on me, its because you wanna push a mislynch, not because I'm me.

Yes except those reads were "Your vote is bad but I think BBM and Marth are worse." which is all cool because hey look, I've been addressing people on my wagon too. The difference is because I'M THE VICTIM I look like I'm defending. If I wasn't the target it'd look totally pro-town trust me.

I'm obvsly not going to be confident in an ED1 read and its weak hence I signed it off as gut but I'll concede this to you. I cannot argue that my BBM vote was highly pro-town but I will still say that my SB vote was so no gut. How is voting someone for their poor logic a GUT READ? And fine I'll also concede that MUST isn't what you used but you were definitely strong about our lynches and were certain about lynching one of us so fine.

Yeah ok its not my fault I can't get reads earlygame but that doesn't stop people from voting me now right? At that point I had no choice but to defend myself because loads of people were voting me and I already stated my reads about those who weren't voting me but apparently the only thing that goes to your head is that I'm defending myself.

Uh ftr I asked you that question wayyy back so I could catch contradictions like these. Proposing such a theory basically misreps me and the time at which you proposed this theory was the time at which you asked me to make a fuckton of reads and evidences, good lord. So I will apply this same reasoning to you: There was fucking all the info you had to make cases on people and instead you spend time making theories. Ok. It wasn't even the beginning of the game when you made that shit up and now you're going back on your word? Wat.

So you take pride in starting the bandwagon with the most shittiest logic, cool. Uh, yeah it iS a continuation from last phase because I think your logic is shit, but instead you keep saying I'm butthurt over your vote on me and I'm using meta on you when the only thing I said was if you pull off bullshit you're more likely to be scum.

Your read on Mancer was town because "Mancer's tunneling like a baws but sadly that's his town meta". That's called solely meta. My read on Bizz was from town vibes due to her play AS WELL AS meta. That's not solely meta. There's a difference between it. Her play later than that looked town to me based on her contribution as well. I'd rather not describe a town read anymore than this since it's really a waste of time and more beneficial to scum than town.

"You're still gonna tunnel me lololol" sounds like victimizing, and I can bring up other instances where you've been doing so from earlier in the game just because you had a wagon on you. It's really a lesser point though and I'd rather not get into it because it can bring in unnecessary emotions into the game, it's just something I notice scum do from time to time when they're cornered.

Defending yourself isn't a bad thing and it's not scummy. But you've defended yourself way more than you've scumhunt, and all your scumhunting has to do with other players. You could have easily attacked the other 8 players who weren't on your wagon but didn't. If it was me who was with the wagon, and you attacked everyone on my wagon, it would look like you're soft defending me, so I'm not really sure it'd be protown either.

Dude I literally quoted you saying it was a gut read. I'm not making this up, it's what you said, and I'm just going with what you said. I don't know what's going on in your head so I can only go by what you say in your posts. I wanted to lynch one of you guys because you were the scummiest players to me at that time and I thought I could learn a lot from your flips, not because of a theory I conjured ED1 means I must lynch one of you.

It's not that, it's the fact that there was pages of content posts for you to use but still said "not enough evidence". If everyone else is able to garner reads on other players how is there not enough evidence? Again, defending yourself isn't scummy, defending yourself WAAAAY more than scumhunting is scummy. Also this is you kinda victimizing yourself again by saying "it's not my fault but people still vote me right?".

Yeah I realized that, but there's no contradiction made. I changed my theory up a little based on more evidence being laid on the table. I originally made this theory up here on Page 3 of the game, when there wasn't a whole lot to work off of. It just made sense to me at the time. But yeah Page 3 isn't the beginning of the game and there's a shit ton of info to use; what am I thinking?

I made a clear case as to why I believe you're scum and provided multiple reasons for it. I believe it's a bit more than "using shitty meta" and "voting me because you think I'm butthurt" and "bullshit logic" when it's pretty clear and concise.

errr when have I said CR is newbscum? It went from newbtown to newb!SK and I never specifically stated that. she was newb!scum. When I voted her my reason was her stating she gor SK vibes from Shinand I admit it wasn't very clear.

I never waffled on scum!Prims because I said I could see why Bizz thinks he's scum, not that I agreed with her. I asked you about JB because he too should've pinged your scumdar when you kept yelling at me for echoing reads considering he echoed yours.

W/e we go in circles. You will continue to say I'm 'butthurt' over you voting me(trust me I would just attack everyone on my wagon then and tunnel on them) and I insist your reasons for voting me are piss-poor.

Probably here when you voted her and said that your scumreads go "Helios > CR > Shin". That's where I got you thinking she was newbscum from. You didn't ~explicitly~ state it but you inferred in that statement.

Fair enough, I'll concede that point. I misinterpreted it. If JB should have pinged on my scumdar, how come he didn't ping on yours? Double standard boiii.

Again, my case is a bit more than you being butthurt and much more than having piss poor logic, but a lynch takes more than one vote so we'll let the others decide who is right.

[Helios]

I've gotta go to bed now since it's about that time of night for me, so don't expect anything more out of me for a while.

[Bluedoom]

Got a neutral read on Mancer. He's tunneling like a baws, but damn that's actually in his town meta. >_> Obviously kinda pissed that he's tunneling hard on me but w/e.

Bold: NEUTRAL. Did you read my posts properly or what? I don't solely rely on meta and We've yet to get new content from Mancer so my Mancer read and your Bizz read are totally different things.

"Still gonna tunnel me" was my smug way of saying "You're scum pulling off bullshit." I will admit I victimized myself sometime in D1 because I was pissed with the shit votes accumulating on me but now I'm not. You think I was defending myslef, let's see what idea I had of the 8 players who didn't vote me:

1. BBM- already said he was scummy.

2. Elieson- Didn't even exist, came in talked about BBM and I think later Obviam? He still isn't exactly existing.

3.Shin- Didn't even do anything, when he did I found him scummy(and said it. Go read my posts I did find him scummy by meta and him being kinda lazy in scumhunting.

4.Bizz- Already explained(null)

5. Prims- Already explained(null)

6. Obviam- Didn't exist until later. And then I did give my opinion about Obviam later, what, do you not read my posts?

7. j00- Didn't really feel off about j00 since I agreed with his points(even me overreacting) and his SB(at least I thought we were of the same opinion), so I didn't feel like saying anything about j00 but I DID mention my opinion about him later when he was a lynch option.

Yeah, your case of me defending forever is bullshit because I actually DID say things about other players. This is more to everyone saying I'm defending only; cuz I'm not really doing only that. Its a fact that the more active players of the game were the ones on my wagon. >_>

And yeah I already conceded that BBM was a weak read, a gut one. But SB was not.

The theory I was talking about was you accusing BBM and I of being buddies, not that, are we on the same page or what? >_>

Finally if I did say I found JB scummy, wouldn't you simply say that I'm attacking those on my wagon? I didn't say anything about JB because I wanted to see more contributions from him to get a better read. However I say that since you found me scummy for echoing, wouldn't you find JB scummy for echoing your opinion and hopping on to the Marth!Wagon? You still haven't answered that.

(Yeah I know I said I'd stop but eh I felt like giving another rebuttal so meh.)

[Bluedoom]

ok fail bold tags wtf

nvm the theory post you linked you know I'd have never figured out you changed something from Pg 3 all the way uptil that >_>

[j00]

Too much text you two

I'll read properly later, I'll be busy today, but the argument reads more like in-town fighting to me. Marth is wasting far to much effort on being pissed, and though I don't think he's scum he could do a better job scumhunting by spending less text on defending himself. I'll admit that a Marth lynch would at least provide information.

My vote is on SB. I didn't find him any good last phase, with scarce content, and when he suddenly late in the phase became meh on Marth and voted me mainly because of my first post, he became worse. I'd like to have more content from him.

##Vote: SB

[Aleph]

I'm with j00 on this one even though I didn't read anything yet. The size, structure and lack of interruptions of these posts just look like senseless bickering. Maybe my meta is off, but it looks too genuine to be scummy. I'll have to verify that with actually reading it of course, but these two have basically controlled the phase so far, which is a bit extreme even for a mafioso trying their ass off to appear like they don't mind drawing attention.

Fight Me

I think the announcer is obvious scum guys

prims is gayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Aleph]

j00 that looks more like an omgus

[scorri]

Hmm ok, in reading through, one thing that I just thought about was this:

Also' date=' noting JB's reaction to j00 getting some votes and how he switches to Shin with little to no explanation. Could be him trying to get BBM off j00. Will reconsider after I see one of those two flip.[/quote']

And then j00 claims a tracker report on JB. Could be nothing, could be something. Still reading, but nothing major yet. Will post more in a bit.

[Helios]

Bold: NEUTRAL. Did you read my posts properly or what? I don't solely rely on meta and We've yet to get new content from Mancer so my Mancer read and your Bizz read are totally different things.

"Still gonna tunnel me" was my smug way of saying "You're scum pulling off bullshit." I will admit I victimized myself sometime in D1 because I was pissed with the shit votes accumulating on me but now I'm not. You think I was defending myslef, let's see what idea I had of the 8 players who didn't vote me:

1. BBM- already said he was scummy.

2. Elieson- Didn't even exist, came in talked about BBM and I think later Obviam? He still isn't exactly existing.

3.Shin- Didn't even do anything, when he did I found him scummy(and said it. Go read my posts I did find him scummy by meta and him being kinda lazy in scumhunting.

4.Bizz- Already explained(null)

5. Prims- Already explained(null)

6. Obviam- Didn't exist until later. And then I did give my opinion about Obviam later, what, do you not read my posts?

7. j00- Didn't really feel off about j00 since I agreed with his points(even me overreacting) and his SB(at least I thought we were of the same opinion), so I didn't feel like saying anything about j00 but I DID mention my opinion about him later when he was a lynch option.

Yeah, your case of me defending forever is bullshit because I actually DID say things about other players. This is more to everyone saying I'm defending only; cuz I'm not really doing only that. Its a fact that the more active players of the game were the ones on my wagon. >_>

And yeah I already conceded that BBM was a weak read, a gut one. But SB was not.

The theory I was talking about was you accusing BBM and I of being buddies, not that, are we on the same page or what? >_>

Finally if I did say I found JB scummy, wouldn't you simply say that I'm attacking those on my wagon? I didn't say anything about JB because I wanted to see more contributions from him to get a better read. However I say that since you found me scummy for echoing, wouldn't you find JB scummy for echoing your opinion and hopping on to the Marth!Wagon? You still haven't answered that.

(Yeah I know I said I'd stop but eh I felt like giving another rebuttal so meh.)

So they're different now? Then why did you try to compare them a couple posts before? Keep contradicting yourself.

Again, I never said you haven't scumhunt and were defending yourself the entire time. I said that your ratio between defending yourself and scumhunting is high. That means that you defend yourself WAY more than you scumhunt. Look at me in Schoolteacher Mafia for a good example of this.

Fine fine. So SB was your only strong scumread at the time while all the others were weak, until you decided to vote me?

So you play to satisfy me now? Why should you care if I tell you that you're attacking people on your wagon if you attack one more person on it. This is a really shitty excuse. I did answer this already. My point is, we both agreed at that time that we didn't have enough content to get a good read off JB. So I'm scummy for not giving a read on him at the time, but you're town for not giving a read on him. You also need to quit acting like I find you scummy for one big reason: it's a combination of a bunch of scummy things that you've done, put together to make a solid case.

This isn't going to get anywhere until we get opinions, but chances are people are going to be afraid of all the content in here and handwave 90% of it lol.

[Prims]

##Vote: Iris

Looked through her ISO, couldn't find a single post where she had a solid scumread. Her vote on BBM barely evolved over the course of the day either, like she was just voteparking on a mislynch wagon. I think she's coasting off the miller claim, a role which is unlikely to pop up when the cop is already up against 5 non-town players.

Could alternately go for a SB lynch now; don't think it's realistic how he hard tunneled Marth D1 then suddenly wasn't sure about his scumread as the wagon was losing traction. He was also one of the people who wrote off Obviam's post as sheeping and I'm egh about that given how late Obviam's post into the day was; it's an easy way to push a case that isn't there by mudslinging at a tl;dr post people won't want to read.

Mancer has still basically not done anything. JB should explain why Shin was suddenly his top priority at the end of the day when he had been voting Marth the entire time. Would expect to find scum between them and Iris since I'm townreading the more active players. Based on her late-D1 posts, CR is probably SK at worst.

I also don't think Marth or Helios are scum. I would probably lynch Helios over Marth for giving CR a newb pass yet denying that Marth could be frustrated town which seems like a weird way to distribute clears, but overall both of their reactions throughout the game have read town to me.

[Prims]

i forgot scorri was playing but then i looked through her iso and didn't find a single instance of *shrug* so she's probably town

[Helios]

##Vote: Iris

Looked through her ISO, couldn't find a single post where she had a solid scumread. Her vote on BBM barely evolved over the course of the day either, like she was just voteparking on a mislynch wagon. I think she's coasting off the miller claim, a role which is unlikely to pop up when the cop is already up against 5 non-town players.

Could alternately go for a SB lynch now; don't think it's realistic how he hard tunneled Marth D1 then suddenly wasn't sure about his scumread as the wagon was losing traction. He was also one of the people who wrote off Obviam's post as sheeping and I'm egh about that given how late Obviam's post into the day was; it's an easy way to push a case that isn't there by mudslinging at a tl;dr post people won't want to read.

Mancer has still basically not done anything. JB should explain why Shin was suddenly his top priority at the end of the day when he had been voting Marth the entire time. Would expect to find scum between them and Iris since I'm townreading the more active players. Based on her late-D1 posts, CR is probably SK at worst.

I also don't think Marth or Helios are scum. I would probably lynch Helios over Marth for giving CR a newb pass yet denying that Marth could be frustrated town which seems like a weird way to distribute clears, but overall both of their reactions throughout the game have read town to me.

So you think Iris's miller claim is fake then? It's not the first time a miller has coasted after claiming after all like Rein and Cam lol. Agree that if it wasn't for the claim I'd be focusing on her more though. My only problem really with lynching Iris right now is that if she's actually just the miller like she claims it would be the dumbest D2 lynch ever. She hasn't really been active in the other game either so it's probable that she just isn't very active right now.

Agree with your thoughts on SB obviously and I don't mind switching to lynch him.

Mancer was gone for a while so I'd like to give him time before labeling him as scum. I already shared my thoughts on him D1 and since he hasn't really posted since then nothing has changed.

If j00's tracker report is legit then it'd be strange to see JB being scum since scum usually have active roles (I think at least). I guess he could be the hooker/silencer/kidnapper or something where it'd be understandable to idle N1 but I guess I don't really see it right now. I don't really think scum would fakeclaim Tracker either since it's a risky fakeclaim and kinda hard to fake. However, if JB flips redirector then it'd be pretty obvious that j00 is his buddy.

I'm actually starting to see the light on SK!CR. If we're in potential MYLO, and I highly doubt that there'd be 5 scum. If it's 8:4:1, a mislynch would make it 7:4:1, then a misvig, scumkill, and SK killing a townie would make it 4:4 and game. However, there wasn't a kill last night, which means that either the SK idled (highly doubt this) or he/she hit a doc target. For that to happen it'd have to be someone who is probably less experienced in mafia and doesn't know too much about who would be an obvdoc target, which would fit CR's bill. Add that with how she mentioned Shin being an SK out of nowhere when there's no way to know if there's an SK in a game (possible slip) and it would make sense. I guess it's kind of convenient how it all works out like that though. I still doubt that she'd be mafia because her play so far fits the newbtown bill and she doesn't seem to be getting any help from buddies, but I didn't take third party into consideration since I didn't know there could be a third party in this game (though I guess in hindsight I should have probably assumed it).

If it's potential MYLO, I'd rather we lynch someone who has a higher chance of flipping mafia, which to me means we should probably stay away from JB, Iris, and CR for now. Atm I feel like Marth or SB has the highest chance of flipping scum and I say we should go with one of them.

[Bluedoom]

Ok if this isn't working ##Unvote ##Vote: JB

Can't remember anything from him and Marth-->Shin voteshift was bad.

[Prims]

24 hours gone and we literally only have four people voting. FOUR. I really hope this is just due to the holiday because otherwise holy shit you guys are terrible at mafia.

Bluedoom, what's your opinion on SB right now?

[Jaybee]

holiday stuff is painful

gonna read soon