The most current loss of my faith in humanity

[Anacybele]

Except I wasn't the first person to bring up racism in this thread. I was merely adding my opinion on whether racism COULD have been a factor in that crime and explaining it.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Anacybele

[Narga_Rocks]

I like how the guy that reported Ana's posts made a post that violates the rules of SD himself. I'm just going to leave it all alone and tell everyone to start another line of discussion in this thread. I think if people are too jumpy to even discuss whether there was race issues involved then you all should just leave it. I'll leave you all with this, though: if those kids would have done the same thing to someone of the same race as they are, not racist, and if they wouldn't, then possibly racist. We can't get in their heads, though, so there's no point in even discussing it.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Tangerine]

I wouldn't care if you wanted to discuss race being a factor if it were even hinted at, but it's entirely unsubstantiated at this point and I have to question why you guys are even focusing on it.

I don't really intend for this post to be replied to, I just can't help but respond to this in the hopes that it'll inspire a little more open-mindedness from one user in particular..

Just. What the hell. I agree with whoever said these boys need to be locked up forever and the key thrown away. Placed in the dirtiest cells possible so they fall ill and suffer until they die. Suffer for as long as they can.

And those of you saying racism might not be an issue here, it very well might be. I've had many poor experiences with black kids when I was in school and I'm white. In fact, just about every bully that ever targeted me was black. The bullying almost drove me to suicide too. But luckily, I didn't have the guts to kill myself. I have a hatred for most black kids because of the shit they put me through. Don't get me wrong, I can make friends with younger kids or adults, but the teenagers? Almost never.

I would hardly be surprised if the two little monsters from this news story were racist.

First of all, to support your assertion that racism could have been involved, you discussed a situation that has you coming out the racist. How does that work? Are you empathizing with them because you believe they are racist and you were also driven to racism? (that's a rhetorical question) At first glance I wasn't even entirely sure what point you were trying to make. The sensible way to come out of a situation like that is to believe that bullying and the effects of bullying are issues of concern and need to be dealt with, not that black people are issues of concern and need to be dealt with. If their bullying is racially motivated then they aren't condemning their whole race to be punished for their own beliefs.

I don't even like the idea of profiling people as "black" or "white" in discussions like these. It feels like segregating ourselves is only going to augment the problem.

"A select few?" lol, no. Try over a dozen. Also, from what I've seen, more criminals overall are black.

See this is silly. You look up statistics and find african americans over-represented in most forms of crime, but you don't bother to research why that might be. I advise you look at the US on a per-state or even per-city basis, look at how the races are divided for that state or city, and then look at what the average income of families are by race. You'll find that the average white family makes nearly twice as much money as the average black family on most occasions, and that on average black family households have more members, especially in the poor areas. To me this is a clear indicator of what could be contributing to their giant theft and armed robbery statistic in comparison to white people. And we all know that things escalate once a situation has begun and it's not going the assailants' way, because we get a news story like this every couple days.

In any case, I don't want to see posts like these anymore. If you want to respond to me for the sole purpose of continuing this discussion, you can send me a PM.

This story isn't about a hate crime or the kids' race. Someone killed a baby, it wasn't a "black person". It was a person; the color of his skin didn't have anything to do with it as far as we know, and it's certainly not what we should be talking about in favor of mourning for the child and wishing the mother and her family well. There are plenty of places you can go if you want to talk about that - heck, you can start your own thread here if you want to. But this thread was made for the family and what happened to them, so let's keep it that way and not turn their tragedy into a springboard for our personal agendas.

Hopefully they're able to recover somewhat, but it's doubtful that their lives will ever be the same.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Tangerine

[Ein]

Jesus Christ you guys. Seriously.

The individual who murdered the infant should be tried as an adult and be sentenced accordingly. As for the younger individual who knows. There isn't much to go on after reading the article but if this is being turned into a race issue than... I don't even know. Honestly.

[redturtle806]

Jesus Christ you guys. Seriously.

The individual who murdered the infant should be tried as an adult and be sentenced accordingly. As for the younger individual who knows. There isn't much to go on after reading the article but if this is being turned into a race issue than... I don't even know. Honestly.

For real. Why the hell is this even being called a race issue?

I'm pretty sure someone who is mentally unstable enough to gun down a infant in front of a mother doesn't take the time to stop and think, "Well I wasn't gonna kill this baby but the mother is white so I guess I will."

[Momentai~]

I highly doubt this was racially motivated. The perpetrators probably went to a nice area and picked out the person they figured would put up the least amount of resistance. That alone is bad enough. I can't believe someone would shoot a baby in the face.

Can the smaller boy be punished as badly as the bigger one though? In the article the mother says the larger one was the one who was the aggressor and the one who did the shooting. It seems more like the smaller one was just... there. He sounds more like an accessory than an accomplice.

"A boy approached me and told me he wanted my money, and I told him I didn't have any money. And he said, 'Give me your money or I'm going to kill you and I'm going to shoot your baby and kill your baby,' and I said, 'I don't have any money,' and 'Don't kill my baby.'"

The boy tried to grab her purse and opened fire when she said tried to tell him she had no money, West said, with the shot grazing her head. She said the boy then shot her in the leg.

West continued, "And then, all of a sudden, he walked over and he shot my baby in the face."

During the incident, the smaller of the two boys was hiding behind the larger one, she said. "I don't know whether it was his brother or a friend."

I'm guessing the larger one was the 17 year old and the smaller one was the 14 year old. It's possible that the younger one was manipulated into going there, not realizing the full extent of what was going to occur.

Hmm, but right afterwards it seems to contradict what was just said...

West had said she hopes the boys will receive the maximum sentence possible. "If they can use a gun like an adult, then they can be charged like an adult," she said. "I want to see lethal injection or at least life in prison. This child did nothing to him. He was innocent and helpless."

Earlier in the article she mentions that it was the larger boy who used the gun, and now it sounds like she's saying both of them wielded it. Then the quote following it uses a singular pronoun ("him") obviously referring to the one who fired the gun. Which is it? If both are being hit with a murder charge then the younger boy must have done something other than just stand there, right (this isn't a rhetorical question; I'd like an answer from someone more learned on the subject of law)?

I'm more worried about the mother than the criminals though. The woman has my deepest condolences. I don't think she can ever recover from this. She even tried to perform CPR on her child after he getting shot. That's likely just as traumatizing as witnessing the shooting, probably even moreso. I hope she doesn't blame herself for an act that was completely out of her hands and I also hope she gets all the help she needs...

[Chiki]

Apparently the mother said "I just hope, you know, that the shooter dies. I mean, I had to watch my baby die and I want him to die. A life for a life."

Southerners really have corrupt moral values. She's no better than the shooter.

[eclipse]

Apparently the mother said "I just hope, you know, that the shooter dies. I mean, I had to watch my baby die and I want him to die. A life for a life."

Southerners really have corrupt moral values. She's no better than the shooter.

Extreme emotional states make people say emotionally charged things. I think having her own child shot in front of her would put her in such a state. In other words, let justice be done by those that are impartial.

[Chiki]

Extreme emotional states make people say emotionally charged things. I think having her own child shot in front of her would put her in such a state. In other words, let justice be done by those that are impartial.

I agree that it's acceptable to wish for his death, but I find it absolutely repulsive to campaign for it in the manner this woman is doing. It's one thing to want it and another thing to go around saying you want him dead and try to get it. It's sickening.

[eclipse]

I agree that it's acceptable to wish for his death, but I find it absolutely repulsive to campaign for it in the manner this woman is doing. It's one thing to want it and another thing to go around saying you want him dead and try to get it. It's sickening.

My point still stands. Whether or not she truly means this, only time will tell.

[Chiki]

My point still stands. Whether or not she truly means this, only time will tell.

Of course she means it. Doesn't "a life for a life" sound familiar to you? It's the same kind of reasoning all Southerners have.

By that logic we should be raping rapists.

[eclipse]

Of course she means it. Doesn't "a life for a life" sound familiar to you? It's the same kind of reasoning all Southerners have.

By that logic we should be raping rapists.

Why are you so quick to assume that it's her speaking, and not her emotions?

[Chiki]

Why are you so quick to assume that it's her speaking, and not her emotions?

Because that's what most people in the South think, even when their children haven't been shot in the face. The probability that she's dead serious is more likely than the probability that she'll regret saying those things.

[eclipse]

Because that's what most people in the South think, even when their children haven't been shot in the face. The probability that she's dead serious is more likely than the probability that she'll regret saying those things.

This is about as productive as the earlier speculation on race. I think I've made my point; you can push yours, if you feel so inclined.

[Emeraldfox]

People who kill baby animals should be put to death grr grr.

Unneeded line aside, killing babies is wrong and awful, yeah, the shooter shoud be put in jail. Death penalty? Yeah no, I mean, it's probably the kid's first offence. I mean, whoa, putting someone on death row for one murder? Even if it was a baby, that's stupid and extreme like, really. I hope the mom can move on.

By the way, inmates have to be taken care of even if they're on death row. They commited a crime, but they're still human.

[redturtle806]

You're telling me if someone killed one of your family members, you wouldn't want to see that son of a bitch dead? I guarantee you she's dead serious. It's not that we don't respect life, we just don't have a problem with taking murderers off the street for good. Why the hell should this guy get to live a long life after cutting the infants short by 60-90 years potentially.Those are values and we don't try to force them on anyone else; so if you don't like it don't live here and don't try force your values on us. -A Southerner

[PresidentEden]

Of course she means it. Doesn't "a life for a life" sound familiar to you? It's the same kind of reasoning all Southerners have.

By that logic we should be raping rapists.

First, have you even met a Southerner in person? Second, have you ever had a loved one murdered in cold blood by someone who clearly felt no wrong in doing it?

If the answer to the first question is "yes," meet better people from the South, there are a lot of us. If it's "no," save the prejudiced nonsense. I'm going out on a limb and assuming the answer to the second is "no," in which case I'm also going to advise you to save the judgmental nonsense. Her feelings are perfectly justified. Her announcing her feelings is also perfectly justified. She's not taken a step to go out and actually act on them, so no wrong has been done. And it's quite arguable that any wrong would be done even if she killed them, though I personally do think she should not.

[Anacybele]

First of all, to support your assertion that racism could have been involved, you discussed a situation that has you coming out the racist. How does that work? Are you empathizing with them because you believe they are racist and you were also driven to racism? (that's a rhetorical question) At first glance I wasn't even entirely sure what point you were trying to make. The sensible way to come out of a situation like that is to believe that bullying and the effects of bullying are issues of concern and need to be dealt with, not that black people are issues of concern and need to be dealt with. If their bullying is racially motivated then they aren't condemning their whole race to be punished for their own beliefs.

I know you didn't want anyone to reply to this, but I'm just going to explain that my point was that many blacks could be just as racist as many whites. And can you really blame me? I was always the lonely little white girl getting harassed, picked on, and targeted by the black kids. A black girl even almost beat the shit out of me. White kids usually either came to my defense or were friendly with me. Or just plain left me alone. I did not want to become racist to any extent at all, I honestly didn't. But my emotions and hatred of the people that nearly drove me to kill myself just got the better of me and I couldn't help it. I'm just glad that I can still make black friends at all.

The boys doing what they did to that poor woman and her baby and the fact that they had different skin colors just immediately brought "racism" to my mind because of my past experiences. And why I agree with anyone that says they should be locked up forever and suffer for their cruel and horrid crime.

See this is silly. You look up statistics and find african americans over-represented in most forms of crime, but you don't bother to research why that might be. I advise you look at the US on a per-state or even per-city basis, look at how the races are divided for that state or city, and then look at what the average income of families are by race. You'll find that the average white family makes nearly twice as much money as the average black family on most occasions, and that on average black family households have more members, especially in the poor areas. To me this is a clear indicator of what could be contributing to their giant theft and armed robbery statistic in comparison to white people. And we all know that things escalate once a situation has begun and it's not going the assailants' way, because we get a news story like this every couple days.

Alright then, perhaps the crimes I read/heard about just happened to be committed by blacks most of the time. My apologies there.

In any case, I don't want to see posts like these anymore. If you want to respond to me for the sole purpose of continuing this discussion, you can send me a PM.

Don't worry, I don't wish to discuss this anymore.

[PresidentEden]

Blacks are disproportionately convicted for crimes committed, but this is more the result of an increasingly overtly racist Drug War than anything else; a lot of those crimes for which blacks are convicted are minor drug offenses that frankly shouldn't be crimes in the first place. Beyond that, there is some degree of correlation between blacks and crimes, but race is clearly not the cause; rather, both race and criminality are effects of socioeconomic virtual segregation, a byproduct of the US's racist past, which leaves disproportionately high numbers of blacks in poor neighborhoods and generally poor living conditions which are conducive in turn to higher crime rates.

It's important still to hold individuals accountable -- as individuals for individual crime -- but it would indeed be in error to ascribe this trend to some kind of innate behavior based on race. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with bullies in school, Anacybele. Just try to focus on the fact that the perpetrators were foolish and mean-spirited teens; that's the cause of their bullying you, not anything to do with race. You may miss out on some incredibly influential friends who can enrich your life through experiences you've never had... and that would be a shame, wouldn't it? I hope you can recover from the effects of bullying strongly and release the hate that begets hate. If you need to talk, I'm here to lend an ear.

[Esau of Isaac]

Of course she means it. Doesn't "a life for a life" sound familiar to you? It's the same kind of reasoning all Southerners have.

Because that's what most people in the South think, even when their children haven't been shot in the face.

All? Most? Which is it?

You have to keep the generalization you're making constant, at least.

[PresidentEden]

Still waiting to hear back from that guy about why Southerners are subhuman filth with the moral understanding of an enraged toddler, Esau. Doubt we'll hear anything.

[Rehab]

Though it certainly doesn't preclude it, if I remember an Economist article about a year ago on America's prisons right, there are a lot fewer violent crimes committed by guys into their thirties and beyond than by younger ones. Not knowing all the possible context of the shooting, like whether the shooter had a record beforehand or what other problems he might've had, I can't be sure I'd come down either way on him, but man.

The dude's going to have to live with "I shot a baby" for the rest of his life, from 17 years old on. If he lives a full life, that's going to be a lot of time with something so heavy on his head, and even if he doesn't get death (forget what state this was in doh) or life imprisonment, he'll get absolutely shit on once he gets out, at least in terms of work/educational opportunities in the U.S., even if he'd never think of doing it again.

That's sad to me. The baby's dying before it could even conceive of establishing an identity is horrific on many levels, of course, and I can imagine its death sending out a shockwave through its family, especially for the mother. It sounds like a nightmare, and it's something I don't know what to think about, really, other than hope I don't experience it firsthand in any way. I admit, it's hard to imagine how mad I'd be if I had to go through something like that, and I'll believe it's something fierce.

But sometimes I wonder how much we care about minimizing that suffering. If the shooter has a standard-functioning brain and hasn't been brainwashed or himself abused to hell otherwise, I find it hard to believe he won't regret it. He probably has family, too, and though I can't say with certainty, I'd still be willing to bet they're hurting like hell to see this happen, even if they're the type to disown him or something. I wonder if ending his life physically as well, and/or limiting its possibilities in almost every practical sense, are really the best ways to manage all that net grief.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Rehab

[PresidentEden]

My suspicion is that someone with the brazenness to pull the trigger as deliberately as described in the article is not necessarily likely to be repentant. People in their late teens aren't all innocent and undeveloped; witness the Steubenville case, where aside from the (at least) two rapists (both 18-), there were several other late-teen boys making some of the most horrible rape jokes and actively condoning the rape going on in the other room, and all of them had the clear disregard for right and wrong to record their misdeeds and post them on the Internet. When sentenced, the rapists were only sad that they'd been caught, and not once apologetic for their misdeeds.

The point here isn't to conclude that the killer is in this company, only to say that we can't say for sure that he isn't. The inevitable psych evaluation will have to determine it for us. I do hurt for his family and I'm not happy about the fact that he's going to become another processed cog in the looming danger that is the American prison-industrial complex, but I'm not especially empathetic to the killer himself.

[Rehab]

You're right, I know the guy really jumped off pretty far towards the deep end, and I can't be sure he wouldn't have done the same thing if he were ten years older. I'm just kinda vainly wishing we cared more about lowering the dude's possible rate of recidivism to as close to nothing as it's physically possible to get it, and about bringing somebody who commits a crime like that as close as can be to becoming a fully functional, safely contributing member of society. As opposed to how much we care about kicking his ass.

[Chiki]

All? Most? Which is it?

You have to keep the generalization you're making constant, at least.

I'm not preparing an academic paper. This is an online forum: it's a waste of time and effort to pay attention to every word usage.

Still waiting to hear back from that guy about why Southerners are subhuman filth with the moral understanding of an enraged toddler, Esau. Doubt we'll hear anything.

1. You saying she was perfectly justified to announce her feelings about the death of another human being just adds fuel to my argument.

2. Straw man (I never said anything like that)

And I don't think Southerners are bad people, I just think you and other people who think the same as you do just have wrong moral values (for me). Having bad moral values and being a bad person are two different things. I don't think you should take it offensively.