Shipping Mafia - Rule 9a invoked for universal loss

[Balcerzak]

What the fuck, how did I misread that votals? Oh, because I got it backwards, Strege is voting BBM. How embarrasing.

[BBM]

I'm going to do this: ##Unvote, ##Vote: Shinori

Even disregarding the Blitz vote, I don't like his SB vote. You're allowed to leave your vote on your RVS target, and SB did actually pressure someone else other than Cam as well in that post- he attacked Grassbridger. Voting someone isn't the only way to pressure them, or you'd only ever be able to pressure one person at a time.

[Shinori]

Except his posts don't really have much pressure/content in them. Also why didn't he state that he didn't like grassbringer then when I asked him for various other reads?

Did you guys break out of RVS while I was asleep?

Huzzah for being useless? Except not really huzzah.

I think scorri pointed out the scumslip earlier, but nyeh. I think Manix's defense is ok and checking over my logs with him the most incriminating thing that I could find was "i'm taking bets i become a mafia", and I think his later play was alright. Keeping my eyes on you regardless though, we'll see how things go.

Don't like the reasoning here, townies don't always tell the truth. See last game where Eli lied about being a 1 shot vig when really he had 2 shots. There's also playing suboptimally to gain reactions off of other players, or faking reports (see every prims game ever,) which is pretty valid in early stages of the game where there isn't much to go off of.

You got nothing out of those last few posts?

My vote is staying on Cam till he gets some reads out.

This is his first post really that is content wise. States he's keeping his eyes on Manix but frankly he's just mirroring everyone else's thoughts. Then he simply said he doesn't like GB's reasoning. He didn't state much besides that nor did he state that he thought GB was scummy. Then he makes another comment at Cam and states he's keeping his vote on him until he outs reads but I still don't really see any pressuring on other players that you supposedly see BBM.

You. 3 votes on someone (theoretically) should do a lot more to pressure than than just one of them.

I don't see what's lazy about keeping an RVS vote in the same place if there's a valid reason to.

This is where he states he doesn't like me, and it was in response to my vote on him.

Now in response to BBM again. Can you explain to me how his supposed attack on grassbringer was him actually pressuring grassbringer when all he basically said was "I disagree with you".

One other thing since you and a few other people think I kind of contradicted myself/lied about my blitz vote I would like to bring this up.

If you agree that people can keep their rvs vote and you also agree with SB's "Townie's don't always tell the truth" statement then why would my blitz vote even matter?

##Fos: BBM and still leaving my vote on SB.

[Grace]

I'm not even sure how Shinori got those votes, because iirc he already explained his comments (re Blitz) and I didn't have a problem with them. I don't agree with his SB vote, but not agreeing with someone =/= scum.

Cam finally gave opinions, few they may be. Now who else needs to talk...

##Unvote

##Vote: Strege

Second verse same as the first: Pressure voting until content comes to light. I saw him lurking up the thread yesterday, and there was definitely content available to comment on.

[BBM]

There has to be a purpose to lying though. What exactly was the purpose of not telling the truth (or the entire truth, anyways) when I asked, and then revealing it randomly later?

Personally, I read the bit about Grassbridger as pressuring him.

Looking over Manix's posts, his logic regarding RVS and stuff has been sound, but I feel like too many of his posts have just been logic. The only real content he's had is some analysis of the Grassbridger vote against him, but he dropped that fairly quickly and never actually voted for him. In fact, there was a period of time where he was still attacking GB, after he'd outed his full reasoning for voting me, where he was still voting me. Not sure what the point of keeping your vote on me there was. After that, his votes have just been prodding lurkers; first Cam and then Strege. I prodded Cam too, so I'm not saying that it's scummy by itself, but that 2/3 of his votes have been that is slightly meh.

[Grace]

That's the power of pressure votes for you BBM. Deal with it. I'm trying to bring out information from the lurkers with the threat of a possible (improbable, but still) lynch.

Also re "feel like most of my posts have been logic": Still pretty sure I've given other opinions if you look.

[Grassbridger]

Since votals were posted and I haven't responded to people voting for me yet...

Ether: I wasn't piling on (see quote). I hope that convinces you to change your vote.

Manix: I can see how my vote could be seen as opportunistic in context, but I had only read through #34 when I wrote my post, so I hadn't even seen scorri's question about your so-called "slip", much less people piling onto it. (Notice how I didn't address that at all and had completely different reasoning from that set of posts.)

Scorri: you have an early, unexplained vote on me. Do you have an explanation for the vote, or other reads?

[Ether]

##Unvote: Grassbridger

Yeah, I see it now. That's a workable enough explanation, even if the vote timing was a little wonky. Oh well, it isn't a huge tell regardless. As for what's been going on since I left, I have to agree with Manix that I think all of the votes on Shinori seem a bit excessive.

With regards to BBM, he seems way too stuck on the lying thing for my liking. Everyone lies in mafia at some point or another, town, mafia, or third party. If you say you don't, well... that's a lie =P. To be honest, it feels to me like he's just trying to forge an early wagon, so...

##Vote: BBM

I would also like to see those who have been silent talk, as has been mentioned prior. If I missed anything, let me know. I'm pretty bad for forgetting things as I'm posting.

[scorri]

##Unvote

Naw. Mostly just trying to see what kind of a reaction I'd get~

Now. Manix has explained things pretty well and everything else is kind of a blur to me right now. Read through it too quickly, too hopped up on caffeine, feeling all hyper now. I'll try and get a reread going on later tonight, but for now I must poof.

[Shinori]

I shall wait patiently for your return Scorri.

[BBM]

Of course people, including town, lie. My issue isn't with that- it's that Shinori didn't seem to have a reason for lying. If he were going to lie to me, why just out it randomly later? What strategic purpose does that serve? I feel like he was just trying to make that vote seem more than it was.

[Shinori]

I didn't lie. I see what he did tonight as stuff that he normally does.

I didn't want to state that his digging was about that specifically because I was curious if he mentioned that to everyone or if other people were also asking those same questions. Which I found out YOU, bbm, did.

[BBM]

Yeah, and? I never made an attempt to hide the fact that I asked people who they were shipping themselves with. I told anyone who told me one or more of their targets the same amount of my targets, sometimes more. I saw it as an even information trade, just as one might trade whether their role was active or passive with someone else.

Idk, I just don't see anything right now that's particularly egregious.

[BBM]

Actually, now that I think about it, I know that you, Shinori, have specifically used the passive/active info trade in other OC games (Void). Why are you so wary of a similar trade here?

[Shinori]

I had no idea what the info was going to be used for.

I'd rather not trade something that I have no idea what it could do. Especially if it does reveal alliances.

[BBM]

I have no problem revealing my alliance- I'm town. Why do you care about that?

If you're talking about role, the passive/active thing is a much more direct crumb of your role than some experimental mechanics that we don't really know anything about.

I've seen Xinny making a post for a while now, so waiting for that, since I don't think she's posted since RVS. I see Strege reading the thread too.

[Shinori]

I have no problem revealing my alliance- I'm town. Why do you care about that?

If you're talking about role, the passive/active thing is a much more direct crumb of your role than some experimental mechanics that we don't really know anything about.

I've seen Xinny making a post for a while now, so waiting for that, since I don't think she's posted since RVS. I see Strege reading the thread too.

You obviously don't understand what I mean. And the fact that you responded with that really confuses me. I don't know about you but on N0 my role pm said I DONT KNOW WHO I WAS OR ANYTHING.

And since I didn't know what would happen with me stating who I was pairing with I'd much rather not give out that info for free.

[Xinnidy]

Sunday can most of the time have an inflexible day schedule for some. Well, at least for me, but I don't expect that to be common knowledge. And I was being pretty lazy.

I had a look this afternoon, but now I have actual free time, so let's have some sugar and see what I missed.

First let me address something that was directed at me:

##vote Xinnidy
-->ok you can change your Shinori vote or explain it now

...and that is all.
This actually confuses me a lot, I don't think I get what you want from me.

If you want an explanation on why I voted Shinori, it was mostly RVS, though I based loosely on the fact I didn't talk to him N0 and saw him reading the thread without posting at the time, so I wanted to prod him for something. My current assessment of Shinori should be in another paragraph.

If you want me to get out of 'RVS' or some, let me post again, as I am right now. But your wording makes your vote not sound like a prod vote at first.

##Unglomp

While Shinori mentioned he didn't like Blitz's 'N0 BS' in general, his comment on Blitz's N0 inquisitiveness is more of a supportive ammendment, one claim is not mutually exclusive to the other, and is a little akin to what Manix did with his BBM vote, in execution.

The suspicion around information trade seems more like a shot in the dark, however, since most of the information we had was minimal (and regarding the ships still is), suspecting people for looking this information seems pointless, at least from what I know from night 0. Though I have little to go on for that, and I don't feel like giving much focus until actual knowledge about the ships is made clear.

##Poke: Ether

I don't like Ether's recent posts, his RVS unwillingness with scorri backup (which wasn't really subtle at all, unlike accused somewhere, but didn't ping me as buddying) was actually okay, though I believe there's some value in RVS. Ether's stance still gives reactions if done well. Volcanic Mafia may not be the best example to use, but it did stir enough conversation from what I saw, and so it did here. Though not for the intended reasons, I concede.

The end of this post onwards didn't feel like it helped his stance however, even if it was admitted to being a pointless conceding to Manix's pressure following that. The more recent throwing of votes at grassbridger for vote piling on Manix and switch on BBM for caring too much about lies feels contrasting to that as well. If that's enough content to get you going, what do you think of the current discussions and arguments as a whole?

Other than that, I decided I will be patient with Cam on waiting for opinions, because his apathy is really unhelpful at determining his alliance, though I think it's fair to ask his hypotethical vigging if it doesn't improve, or deal with it later if neither happen. I think his one post of opinions wasn't spectacular but was enough, at face value.

I've actually addressed most of posts #30-58 in a thoughts note, but I don't know what was meaningful enough to put here. If there's anything you want me to discuss about, asking makes the process faster for me.

I feel I've been working on this post for too long. :x

[Strege]

Sorry for the inactivity; things will be better going forward.

I'm reasonably suspicious of Serious Bananas and scorri here. They both have a good handful of posts but not a lot of strong material. Scorri did some warranted self-defense and two minor prods, but hasn't really pressured anyone and isn't voting for anyone right now. SB is on the Cam train, pressuring for additional content, but hasn't pushed an argument against him, or anyone else, or criticized other people for inactivity (a lot of us are guilty of this at the moment). I'll wait for scorri to get back and hopefully post some stuffs -- for now: ##Unvote (BBM), ##Vote SB I'm not asking that he necessarily move his vote if he wants it on Cam, but I'd like to see a read or argument against someone.

It seems like we're not in agreement about whether or not anyone knew their alignment in N0. I'm thinking that no one did, but I don't know how to set up a game of mafia so that's not worth a whole bunch. I do regret playing N0 with that assumption, since now I don't have good logs to reference if they end up being relevant. I think the more important the pairings are, the more likely N0 only existed to facilitate them, so if you have a role that depends on pairs (I'm thinking of the Avatar mafia element-related roles for reference) I would look less at the N0 logs for scummy behaviour. Otherwise, it's a toss up -- if scum knew their alignment than scummy behaviour can be detected from N0, but if they didn't then changes in behaviour between N0 and now are more important.

[Grassbridger]

This actually confuses me a lot, I don't think I get what you want from me.

If you want an explanation on why I voted Shinori, it was mostly RVS, though I based loosely on the fact I didn't talk to him N0 and saw him reading the thread without posting at the time, so I wanted to prod him for something. My current assessment of Shinori should be in another paragraph.

If you want me to get out of 'RVS' or some, let me post again, as I am right now. But your wording makes your vote not sound like a prod vote at first.

Really? This was confusing? I wanted you to either change your vote or explain it (which is exactly what I said), because it looked like RVS. Anyway, since you did both of those things, it couldn't've been too confusing...

And yes I wanted you to post again. That's why I voted you with a "please explain or vote" note.

##Unvote (Xinnidy)

##Vote BBM for saying that Manix's posts had too much logic in them. Logic is good; logic usually helps town in my experience. Your argument with Shinori is also a little off--"I have no problem revealing my alliance- I'm town" shows a misunderstanding of what Shinori was saying, and I think it makes you seem slightly scummy because you neglected the fact that none of us knew who we were n0 (unless that's not the case and mafia knew).

[Shinori]

I'm not sure if what BBM said or not was a slip or not.

[Grace]

I'm not sure if what BBM said or not was a slip or not.

Slip this, slip that. Someone want to explain to (dumb) me what BBM slipped on? (If it's the I'm town comment, you're really gonna have to fill me in)

Logic is good; logic usually helps town in my experience.

Depends how the logic is used in context, to be fair. If BBM had said something like "He's stating facts to attempt to look more protown" over "he's using too much logic", that in itself is a decent reason for a case, should that be the situation (pretty sure it isn't).

also I'm out right now at a coffeehouse and i'm about to walk home so yeah

[Shinori]

He asked me why I didn't want to say who I was shipping on N0. I stated cause I wasn't sure what it would do or if it had anything to do with alliances. His response to it was that he was town.

Either implying he didn't understand my post, he didn't read my post fully, or that he already knew he was town which he couldn't have.

[Grace]

So as in he said during the night that he was town or just the instance in the thread?

I'm a bit confused here @_@

[Shinori]

Just now.

I wouldn't really call it a slip but that still heavily implies that he either didn't understand the one post i made or he didn't read it fully which would mean he's skimming.