I Can't Believe It's not SFMM4! - Game Over

[Wen Yang]

Can we request votals btw?

[Green Poet]

lol I am just not paying attention today, that question was addressed to refa, sorry.

Do you mean this post, then? I'd like to get a response to that, as well.

Not liking this FFM wagon. Everyone voting him has essentially been saying "I still think he's scum because of my read on him from D1 and nothing happened overnight wrt FFM for my read to change." Don't the NKed people's reads mean anything? Don't the interactions in between Phoenix's claim and eclipse's turbo mean anything?

Can we request votals btw?

Unless they have been influenced by a player, votals are:

FFM (3) - Kopfjager, Shinori, Euklyd

Eukyld (2) - Elieson, Iris

Iris (1) - me

Darros (1) - Refa

Not sure why Darros hasn't voted yet, as he did put out a few content posts some hours ago.

[Junk]

Honestly sorry refa but for you deciding not to answer that question I am going to vote you, You basically completely ignored GP's question in your last two posts. I believe this is something that needs major clarification on. So unfortunately I will have to prodvote you till you come up with an answer.

## Vote refa

[FrostyFireMage]

watcher ability right, also have to agree with this, what kind of scum would go and target his scumread? seems more like townie play imo.Scum are usually killer type roles or antitown roles and watcher does not sound like an anti town role from what I have seen. Plus the clarification from FFM that his role will indeed block most actions I believe makes sense. Dallas is definitely leaning town to me if he is telling the truth.

Oh, so you're Darros, TOTS? Lost track of all the namechanges, sorry. XD

Iris: I have to second her statement that scum!Eclipse likely wouldn't have pushed so hard for a lynch, but I still find her pretty suspicious, both from being one of the overlapping suspicions of our dead last night, and due to that last-minute change to phoenix yesterday. Granted, I might be biased since I'm still more convinced that FFM is the better target...

Refa: Contributed a decent amount... Current play seems pretty much like his town!play, so I'm leaning town atm.

GP: The Beloved claim is pretty hard to prove without big risk on the town's part, but if she's maf, I don't see why she would claim this so early in day one, since if I were here I'd probably save it for later. Leaning to trust her for now.

Elie: I can't speak too much about him since a lot of my opinions happen to mirror his, slightly leaning town because of that.

Junko: Notable improvement from his first game a while ago... Also slight town leaning on him.

Off for a bit again, rest coming up soon.

Nothing about my role suggests anything about disabling the role of someone who targeted me, so I'm beginning to take Darros' statement with a grain of salt.

My main town reads are eclipse, Darros (if he's being honest), Shinori and GP.

It doesn't make sense that eclipse would direct the lynch to me instead if she was scum. What would she gain from changing the target from a townie to another townie? Unless she found Phoenix's role to be too much of a threat.

Darros I explained earlier, although he's not completely free of suspicion as you can see earlier in my post.

GP's claim was just asking for a dayvig, and I don't see why she would make herself a target like that. Also she's been pretty active, along with Shinori.

DNEPG/Junko seemed to agree with my assessment a little too quickly as you can see from my above quote. Maybe trying to take the heat off Darros?

however it might be because I accidentally said watcher instead of tracker...

@Kophjager: I don't see how Elie's opinions mirroring your own frees him from suspicion. Kinda sounds like you two are scumbuddies.

[Shinori]

Going to bed early today. Sorry I didn't get out a better post tonight but I'm not feeling well. I'll be back tomorrow morning/afternoon and I'll post then.

[FrostyFireMage]

I think I have the biggest misgivings about Poly. He's been voting for me from the beginning, yet defends me in one of his posts. I was willing to let that pass due to certain circumstances, but after all that he hasn't really added much apart from a seemingly rushed evaluation in D1.

##Vote: Polydeuces

[eclipse]

You guys REALLY failed at reading my final post - did you see the words "troll twist"? My role is a two-part role, and to unlock the second part, I had to target a town protective role. Phoenix had claimed one-shot OMNIGUARD (bearclaw was the doctor, folks), so I figured I'd either get the other half of my role, or I'd get someone who was lying about his role. Furthermore, that lynch redirect worked in LYLO and variants; therefore, I could either use it to get a lynch off of myself lategame and screw everyone over, or hit GP during MYLO and win it for scum. I burned it D1 precisely to avoid this nonsense.

Someone left me a message stating that there were 10 townies alive at the beginning of the night; thanks to the kills, it is now eight. Also, I'd appreciate it if BBM would say WHAT in the rules changed, as that's kind of a long list.

Now, onto today's content.

Requesting said person to not shoot me. Not because I don't want to get shot (well...I don't), but because it's going to be a waste of what could potentially be a town motivated kill (and not in the "how could you shoot a townie" sense either, since at least that gives flips). Also, can you confirm that you didn't give it to any of the dead players?

Going to read into Poly next, because GP did bring up a good point WRT him. Other people I'm somewhat bothered by are eclipse and Shinori, as pretty much every player considered them obvious town yesterday and...they didn't die. Unless bearclaw/Eurykins crumbed their roles and I missed it, I see no reason for why they'd be killed over eclipse/Shinori (well, from scum's PoV). Also someone else post dammit.

Part 1: Dunno why you'd say that unless you're a bomb or something (in which case, you should've said something earlier).

Part 2: What part of one-shot did you not see in my role? Until RIGHT NOW, I made everyone think that I had used my shot and was essentially vanilla. 'sides, Eurykins probably wasn't being lynched, and after GP reminded me of the hated modifier on bearclaw, I was less inclined to lynch him.

I told you in skypechat I was working a 11 hour shift at work.

Whatthefuckisthis.

Eclipse is either LOCK CLEAR or scumbuddies with FFM.

This should be easy enough to prove.

Honestly sorry refa but for you deciding not to answer that question I am going to vote you, You basically completely ignored GP's question in your last two posts. I believe this is something that needs major clarification on. So unfortunately I will have to prodvote you till you come up with an answer.

## Vote refa

This is the first thing out of Junko that I legit don't like. Not because of the vote, but because it's a super-passive post from an otherwise neutral (tone-wise) player.

Shinori, you're not allowed to get sick. ;/

Alrighty. . .now, MY thoughts.

- I really, REALLY don't like Wen's recent content. It feels like he skimmed the game, threw out the easiest statements possible, and then used me as an excuse to stop doing things. For example, Iris is "suspicious", but she's lumped with everyone else (including people leaning town) in his lynch priority thing, and Poly's read is based off an unproven associative read. Your read on me shouldn't be based on my choice of targets, while ignoring the rest of D1 - that's what I'd call lazy from someone who was obvtown (but since you're not, in my eyes, it's scummy).

- If Frosty's self-safeguard is permanent (as opposed to X-shot, like what I do with nexuses), he should've said something D1; if it delays actions indefinitely (regardless of whether or not it's passive or active), his silence shifts to outright scummy.

- I think Darros would've been fine with claiming the failure, without claiming his role. Darros is the new Shinori.

- Don't agree with Euklyd's logic regarding his last-minute D1 vote, but eh. His sole D2 post is slightly better than his D1 stuff but I'm still wary of him.

- The bits of Refa's post that I quoted make me uncomfortable.

- Felt slightly better about Iris towards the end of D1 (enough so that I decided not to use my role on her). I think it's a little weird to assume anything about Refa's alignment after Phoenix's flip, as Phoenix's content was basically nonexistent after his claim (thus making him a good target for a scum push anyway).

- Don't have much else to say about the rest of you; you're either not a lynch candidate, or you're not here.

##Vote: Wen

. . .and FFM vote, which is really bad. It's fine and dandy to vote for the guy you have doubts on, but he stated that he wasn't going to be here, so you're essentially voting for an inactive. I'd love it if Poly said something relevant, but I can't will him into existence.

Current lynch priority is Wen > Refa/Euklyd > FFM > everyone else.

[Refa]

You guys REALLY failed at reading my final post - did you see the words "troll twist"? My role is a two-part role, and to unlock the second part, I had to target a town protective role. Phoenix had claimed one-shot OMNIGUARD (bearclaw was the doctor, folks), so I figured I'd either get the other half of my role, or I'd get someone who was lying about his role. Furthermore, that lynch redirect worked in LYLO and variants; therefore, I could either use it to get a lynch off of myself lategame and screw everyone over, or hit GP during MYLO and win it for scum. I burned it D1 precisely to avoid this nonsense.

Hahahahaha, that's the best role ever. But your role's namesake always gets killed on N1

Yeah, you bring up a good point regarding your role. Even if it didn't work in LYLO, I don't see why you'd use it D1 as scum (because that's like the easiest day to get a mislynch anyways).

[FrostyFireMage]

Just as a heads-up, due to my upcoming move and final, I'm probably not going to be around for a good chunk of D2.

You mean this post, Clipsey? Dang, I must have missed it...

Still keeping my vote on him for now.

[Wen Yang]

Clipse: What do you mean FFM is inactive? he's been here and posting all through the phase.

Also, I have a role that I can easily prove if driven to it, but I'd prefer to not say too much atm rather than blabber too much and give the scum too much info.

[Refa]

Yeah, I bet it's Reflexive PR Giver.

[eclipse]

Clipse: What do you mean FFM is inactive? he's been here and posting all through the phase.

Also, I have a role that I can easily prove if driven to it, but I'd prefer to not say too much atm rather than blabber too much and give the scum too much info.

Dear me, I JUST made a case on you, and you respond with this?!

You read wrong. FFM's vote is ON someone who's inactive right now (Poly). Hell, FFM quoted it. Also, I think you just claimed without claiming. . .WHY?!

[Refa]

Timely the responses, do not attempt to replicate at home.

Iris didn't say anything about planning to claim ED2. So unless you've just slipped that she said this in scumchat yesterday, the logic in this defense doesn't hold.

You've unintentionally caught onto my point. As scum, I would know that she was planning to claim the role today (yes, because of the scumchat).

I told you in skypechat I was working a 11 hour shift at work. From Day 1 the problem was I wasn't getting a solid scumread off of anyone who was decently active, except for FFM, who was just way off the charts in scumminess. I guess that made it harder to focus on other people for me, because the red flags were there and waving frantically.

Well, I can understand being super busy would make it harder to create cases on other players. That's reasonable enough. But I don't buy that you couldn't scumread any other active player other than FFM. At the very least, you could've sheeped the scumread of someone you agreed with or something.

Right now I'm really doubting Refa's townieness due to his case on Pheonix yesterday, he seemed to really jump the opportunity to make Pheonix seem scummy, then Pheonix of course flips town. No one seems to have acknowleged this yet today.

Why would I want to tie myself to a mislynch that noone else was supporting at the time? Your logic only applies if I was scumbuddies with FFM...you know, the guy I want vigged.

I see. I agree that the role itself seems like it would be better suited to scum, but it seems like a townie move to me for FFM to actually claim it when he did, since it helps us piece together more about each night's actions and was actually a well-timed and warranted claim, in response to Darros.

That being said, for each night that FFM isn't NKed, it follows that he'll be a progressively better lynch candidate.

Disagree. A townie would ask who Darros targeted before claiming, not the other way around.

I was going to case Iris, but that claim, man.
Need to think about it more now. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that whatever made the second kill and then Iris are probably not both town.

So you think town has zero kills?

Not liking this FFM wagon. Everyone voting him has essentially been saying "I still think he's scum because of my read on him from D1 and nothing happened overnight wrt FFM for my read to change." Don't the NKed people's reads mean anything? Don't the interactions in between Phoenix's claim and eclipse's turbo mean anything?

Pretty sure both of the NKed people were scumreading FFM.

@Kophjager: I don't see how Elie's opinions mirroring your own frees him from suspicion. Kinda sounds like you two are scumbuddies.

That's...not how scumbuddies work. I feel like a lot of people here are confused about that.

- I really, REALLY don't like Wen's recent content. It feels like he skimmed the game, threw out the easiest statements possible, and then used me as an excuse to stop doing things. For example, Iris is "suspicious", but she's lumped with everyone else (including people leaning town) in his lynch priority thing, and Poly's read is based off an unproven associative read. Your read on me shouldn't be based on my choice of targets, while ignoring the rest of D1 - that's what I'd call lazy from someone who was obvtown (but since you're not, in my eyes, it's scummy).

- If Frosty's self-safeguard is permanent (as opposed to X-shot, like what I do with nexuses), he should've said something D1; if it delays actions indefinitely (regardless of whether or not it's passive or active), his silence shifts to outright scummy.

- Felt slightly better about Iris towards the end of D1 (enough so that I decided not to use my role on her). I think it's a little weird to assume anything about Refa's alignment after Phoenix's flip, as Phoenix's content was basically nonexistent after his claim (thus making him a good target for a scum push anyway).

How is Wen's content worse than say Darros'? Or Poly's? Or FFM's? Like I didn't think his recent content was particularly special, but I fail to see how it's SO BAD that he suddenly jumped up to the top of your lynch priority.

I thought FFM was crumbing Ascetic.

It would've been easier to push FFM without being noticed.

Lynch priority right now is:

Darros > FFM > Polydeuces > Everyone else > Green Poet > Iris > eclipse > Me

[Refa]

Cut by Kopfjager's claim. If he's claiming what I think he is, that drastically increases the chance of him being scum. Because SB hates the town aligned version of that role.

[Refa]

Well, more like just noticed than cut, really.

Lynch Refa, claimed liar

[eclipse]

How is Wen's content worse than say Darros'? Or Poly's? Or FFM's? Like I didn't think his recent content was particularly special, but I fail to see how it's SO BAD that he suddenly jumped up to the top of your lynch priority.

I thought FFM was crumbing Ascetic.

It would've been easier to push FFM without being noticed.

1. Everyone else you just mentioned said stuff during D1 (Poly's being the, ah, earliest) - it's currently D2, and Wen is posting with mid-D1 content levels. This is bad. So is not responding to the case I just posted.

2. If your role is going to screw over night-targeting roles for multiple nights, you damn well say something. If it's an active ability, then I think FFM activating it on D1, after being a hot topic of discussion, makes him look worse. Chances are, someone is going to target the guy that was almost lynched, and it's either going to be a vig shot or an investigative role.

3. You think FFM is town?

[Refa]

1. Darros applies to Day 2 as well. FFM has clearly been here and hasn't done anything. You're right about Poly, though. Fair enough on Kopfjager being willfully ignorant.

2. I'm not defending his way of handling his role. I just think people are misinterpreting his crumb. Nowhere did he say anything about his role delaying anything, or if he did I totally missed it.

3. Nope, didn't think he was town at the end of Day 1 either. Phoenix bothered me more, though (whereas I had, and still do have doubts about FFM; he's just...so obvious), hence the push on him over FFM.

Also regarding my lynch priority, I want to amend it with "I don't feel like Darros AND FFM are scum", due to prior interactions. And Kopfjager would go above Polydeuces.

[eclipse]

Darros has his claim in the open (albeit one whose timing that I strongly disagree with), and I think FFM's worst things during D2 are his claim and the fact that his vote is on someone who said he'd be inactive. I'm going based off of what Darros said happened to him - unless Eury's role flavor stuck to him AND FFM was untargetable that night (not outside of the realm of possibility). As for FFM, if he was pushed by scum while he himself was scum, it would be a bus (and a not very subtle one at that).

[euklyd]

ugh I have this case on Iris but like the roleclaim thing makes me sorta second-guess myself.

that Poly vote was pretty weak. it’s basically “sheeping Bear, because activity + really weak meta”

re: poly; I voted him because meta, and he was like that last game where I was scum with him (promised to do things and not do them). Now that SF3 is over, I can talk about it, lol. That's where my waffling stance on Refa came from, too, since he was mafia too and tended to active lurk, but I've only played one game with him, so that's why I didn't know if he did that as town too.

why does this hold true for Poly and not Refa?

also GP has (had, since it was a while ago) a good point about Iris’ vote on Poly:

Poly still looks bad for reasons stated.

I don't think Refa is towny town town, unlike other people in this thread. I know he's sorta been around and his activity for being so is atrocious. However, like I said earlier, I don't know his scum!meta well, nor do I believe that lack of activity is a tell.

I don't like this. Iris' sole stated reason for voting Poly was that he didn't end up delivering on a one-sentence statement on how he was planning on rereading Elieson and herself, behavior which is essentially lack of activity and shouldn't be a tell. And, of course, a case like that is fundamentally flawed in that it mistakes negligence/forgetfulness for scum intent.

anyways the last thing was Iris' voteswitch to Phoenix:

Refa actually has really good reasoning about Phoenix. Phoenix, can you character claim and flavor claim, and do that thing I asked of you earlier? And actually a 1x ability seems sort of weak, to me, I mean omniguard is OP, but still...

where Refa had basically only said "Phoenix's role doesn't have to be town" when Iris had already said here:

Okay, I just ISOed everyone, and I don't think Shinori is as obv!Town as originally, thought, but that's not the issue here.

I actually don't like the FFM or Phoenix wagons. I think there's a good chance one of them is town, the votals seem a bit too weird, and even though there's noobs, there's a ton of gambits they could pull (assuming they have a mafia veteran on their team) to tell them to do.

Individually, going off their ISOs, I think their play is bad, but sometimes bad logic =/= scum? I guess I'll get flack if one of them does flip scum, but so far I'm not really feeling it. If I had to consolidate I would pick Phoenix over FFM, since his play (or the lack of it...) seems worse.

And with sub 3 hours left, where is everyone? (junko i saw that active lurk ... )
We need 6 to lynch, and I thought it was typically standard for the biggest lynch target to claim so we don't lynch a PR. Is this not the case anymore?

that she wasn't interested in lynching Phoenix before he claimed, and then kinda just switched with a "nevermind I'm actually scumreading him, he's probably being coached" (also said he was looking pretty town here) with like no justification (and then sorta justified with some pretty terrible rolespec)

also there's that poor vote on me and then going inactive ED2, but that could be timezones so :shrug:

tl;dr - inconsistent logic + weak meta + 'off' reasoning on the voteswitch.
this is a weaker case than I thought I had, and tbh the claim seems more town than not.

I definitely don't think she's town on claim alone though, given the scummy play.

still would rather a FFM lynch, but this is why I'm suspicious of Iris as well.

##FoS: Iris

[BBM]

VOTALS

FFM (3) - Kopfjager, Shinori, Euklyd

Eukyld (2) - Elieson, Iris

Iris (1) - Green Poet

Darros (1) - Refa

Refa (1) - Junko

Polydeuces (1) - FFM

Kopfjager (1) - Eclipse

Not Voting (2) - Darros, Polydeuces

With 12 players alive, it takes 5 votes to hammer and 7 to lynch at deadline. You have 58 hours and 9 minutes remaining. Phase ends at 5 PM EST (10 PM GMT).

[Elieson]

OK MANAGED TO GET FOOD POISONING LAST NIGHT,

But I'm alive and ok now, so it's time to play the game of catch up

[FrostyFireMage]

Heading to bed all

[Da Bear]

With 12 players alive, it takes 5 votes to hammer and 7 to lynch at deadline.

Fun stuff

[Green Poet]

You've unintentionally caught onto my point. As scum, I would know that she was planning to claim the role today (yes, because of the scumchat).

Okay :/

Pretty sure both of the NKed people were scumreading FFM.

No, the only consistencies between their two reads were on Poly and Iris. Remember that bearclaw was insistent that FFM's play was "off," but like that of newb!town, which was what a lot of people used to make cases on bear.

I don't like the timing of Darros' claim, as there was no reason to reveal he was an info role. Wen's crumb, if it can be called that, isn't too poor, I think? Seems terribly reactionary to claim in response to a single vote, but what he actually gave away wasn't very telling. I thought he could be crumbing dayvig, as that would fit the criteria of being easily provable, but Wen's already stated D1 that he isn't a vig.

Cut by Kopfjager's claim. If he's claiming what I think he is, that drastically increases the chance of him being scum. Because SB hates the town aligned version of that role.

If you think it's likely a scum role, you may as well tell us what it is. Wen doesn't need to confirm it.

Also, Refa, why is Iris so close to the end of your lynch priority? It's not as though her claim has been verified.

@eclipse

Either I'm misunderstanding something crucial about your claim, or there's something you're not telling us.

You guys REALLY failed at reading my final post - did you see the words "troll twist"? My role is a two-part role, and to unlock the second part, I had to target a town protective role. Phoenix had claimed one-shot OMNIGUARD (bearclaw was the doctor, folks), so I figured I'd either get the other half of my role, or I'd get someone who was lying about his role. Furthermore, that lynch redirect worked in LYLO and variants; therefore, I could either use it to get a lynch off of myself lategame and screw everyone over, or hit GP during MYLO and win it for scum. I burned it D1 precisely to avoid this nonsense.

What we know about your role from this:

1. You can turbo whenever you want, as evidenced by the underlined and your use of the role D1.

2. You can turbo people who aren't 1-shot protective roles, as evidenced by the bold.

Therefore, the two outcomes you've come up with, you can either "screw everyone over" lategame or "hit GP during MYLO and win it for scum," are not the only two things you can do. You can choose to turbo scum, and forego gaining the extra ability, which still incurs an advantage for town. To wit, I don't see why it was necessary to "burn" this turbo D1 when it can be used to kill scum.

You neglected to mention this town-beneficial potential use of your turbo, and instead demonstrated a willingness to sacrifice a town protective role in exchange for a role intuitively even stronger than omniguard, which you now had to claim (making it highly likely you'll die tonight anyway). Unless the use of this role is guaranteed to kill one or more mafioso even upon your death, this play will cost town more than it can give us.

##FoS: eclipse

[Green Poet]

You guys REALLY failed at reading my final post - did you see the words "troll twist"? My role is a two-part role, and to unlock the second part, I had to target a town protective role. Phoenix had claimed one-shot OMNIGUARD (bearclaw was the doctor, folks), so I figured I'd either get the other half of my role, or I'd get someone who was lying about his role. Furthermore, that lynch redirect worked in LYLO and variants; therefore, I could either use it to get a lynch off of myself lategame and screw everyone over, or hit GP during MYLO and win it for scum. I burned it D1 precisely to avoid this nonsense.

Also not sure what was meant to be said in bringing this up, since no one knew that bearclaw was a doc throughout the entirety of D1. bearclaw's flip came after Phoenix's claim, and should not have been able to have changed anyone's impression of the latter.

I do agree with the essentials of eclipse's Wen case, though.

List of flips/claims thus far because I'm bored and can't think of much else to deliberate:

Darros - tracker, tracked FFM and result is delayed indefinitely, likely indicating that FFM has a role that involves him targeting other people

FFM - reflexive roleblocker/delayer(?), maybe something else as well

GP - don't lynch me or GG town

Eury - confirmed hooker

bear - confirmed doc

Iris - vigshot-giver, the shot being a medkit item with no/misleading explanation as to what it does (as a side note, I'm not inclined to believe this because it strikes me as potentially bastard and forces Iris to claim after using)

Phoenix - confirmed 1-shot omniguard

clipsey - role that eats 1-shot omniguards to get a role that's presumably stronger

Wen - something that's "easily provable"

With the lack of suspicion on Eury D1, I think either bear was SK'ed and Eury was NK'ed, or Eury was SK'ed, bear was misvigged, and either bear doc'ed the NK/Eury hooked the NKer. And, judging from the confirmed PRs, I'm more inclined to believe Darros' claim than not right now.

. . .And that's all I'm getting from this list.