Persona 3 Mafia - Game Cancelled - Mass Destronktion

[Eurykins]

Eury, what do you think about my proposition for Terrador?

Do you really think potentially sacrificing one townie isn't worth the confirmation of a nightvig's alignment and the possibility of killing one mafioso?

Of the options:

1. That implies that Terrador will actually HIT scum with the shot.

- Also, if Sky_Paladin's claim to the vig shot is also true, Terrador could easily claim that he took the night action and ended up hitting the same scum that Sky chose to take aim at. (Unless Wen goes to track or someone watches the target's location to verify that BOTH went to said location and killed/shot at the target, there is no real way to actually verify if Terrador had taken the shot at the person as well.)

2. If Terrador is left alive (and doesn't want to risk not hitting scum), all he needs to do is idle the kill and let scum do the killing next night phase (ergo, two townies wouldn't die). [Also relies on full protection for you in order to make it to next day phase. It's probable/likely to happen, but still a variable nonetheless.]

OR.

If two townies die, look at the logic used with Euklyd's death. Because multiple people thought he was scummy, the kill looked viable/okay. History may be inclined to repeating itself in such a fashion, I'd say, and I personally wouldn't risk it.

We already have a solid confirmed (as much as can be confirmed anyways) Day vig. It becomes whether you guys want to take the gamble with leaving a night killing ITP still floating around who may still wish to accomplish his original win con and trusting in the fact that he CAN joint with town to win. (He also claims that it's "mod-confirmed" but we have no idea if that claim in itself is actually true, either.)

[Eurykins]

Fuck me, I'm legendary with typos.

Of the options:

1. That implies that Terrador will actually HIT scum with the shot.

- Also, if Sky_Paladin's claim to the vig shot is also true, Terrador could easily claim that he took the night action and ended up hitting the same scum that Sky chose to take aim at. (Unless Wen goes to track or someone watches the target's location to verify that BOTH went to said location and killed/shot at the target, there is no real way to actually verify if Terrador had taken the shot at the person as well.)

2. If Terrador is left alive (and doesn't want to risk not hitting scum), all he needs to do is idle the kill and let scum do the killing next night phase (ergo, two townies wouldn't die). [Also relies on full protection for you in order to make it to next day phase. It's probable/likely to happen, but still a variable nonetheless.]

OR.

If two townies die, look at the logic used with Euklyd's death. Because multiple people thought he was scummy, the kill looked viable/okay. History may be inclined to repeating itself in such a fashion, I'd say, and I personally wouldn't risk it.

We already have a solid confirmed (as much as can be confirmed anyways) Day vig. It becomes whether you guys want to take the gamble with leaving a night killing ITP still floating around who may still wish to accomplish his original win con and trusting in the fact HIS CLAIM that he CAN joint with town to win. (He also claims that it's "mod-confirmed" but we have no idea if that claim in itself is actually true, either.)

Fixed.

[Terrador]

Ha, there IS an ITP in this game. Knew it. Gut feelings OP.

1. This is true, though he did say he executed a night action with no meangingful results. Would like to hear about that.

2. I'm not sure how to feel about the first wincon; if the two who died were townies, and you need two more to die, does that imply that you needed 4 of us townies to die to satisfy your win con? Not exactly the most pro-town goal, imo.

It just means that I have a win condition that's anti-town. The primary reason I claimed is because my actual role is more believable than my smokescreen, in light of SP's claim.

3. Second wincon: You SURE about that? Seems awfully convenient to put forth; claim ITP that requires townie deaths to occur to complete. But on the bright side- you can side with townie and win! Just...what?

It's been done before. I don't agree with it at all from a balance perspective, but it's not at all unheard of. It's not like this game is well-balanced--just look at the shitstorm of roles, with at least one vanilla town existing!!

Will agree with the bolded section below in GP's post:

You've failed to inform us of this situation/information in at least two places:

A. SB's initial (fake) claim of ITP. If you were truly an ITP that could ally itself to acquire a town win, why didn't you seek to CC him at all? There's a good chance that there aren't multiple ITP's floating around, so why did you let him continue on without lifting a finger? (If you could TRULY win with town, you could not only clear yourself then, but continue to scum-hunt in town's best interests from thereon out.) And the fact that SB caught scum!Refa due to his actions does NOT excuse the the fact that you said nothing [the end result of catching scum bears no influence on why you stayed silent].

Wait, CC? Counterclaim? What the deuce? I'm not going to say "oh there's only one ITP and it's me" on Day 1. No. That's stupid, and it doesn't make sense. Survival is an absolutely critical part of my win condition, and further, I honestly believed SB! I saw no reason for him to lie there. Outing yourself as an ITP without very good reason is not something I could ever do.

Also, just because I counterclaim ITP, that doesn't anywhere fucking NEAR mean that clears SB. This point is so bad, it genuinely makes me angry :/

B. You lied to us about being odd-night Vig, and now you're telling us that you need MORE townies dead to satisfy your original win con.

There's nothing "original" about the first win condition. I just listed it first. You're framing it as primary when nothing I've claimed makes it so.

Original win con contradicts underlined portion.

All right. No good reason. Survival is much more important than trying to immediately fulfill a win condition.

Shooting town also serves to push your original win con ahead. Shooting scum serves to save your own ass. Common sense.

There is nothing "original" about that win condition. It's simply the first one listed. If we're assuming that I'm not a dirty liar about my win conditions, both are equally important.

You have EVERY reason to lie now that your neck is potentially on the line. What better reason than to save your own skin by offering a means of appeasing townies by cooperating with them? Ezpz survival instincts/logics.

There's a world of difference between useful lies and stupid lies.

I have every reason to lie about having a town WC, yes, BUT I'm forced into killing scum. I have absofuckinglutely no reason to kill a town tonight, as the probability that I fulfill that WC that night is much much MUCH lower than half, and lower than me surviving with town cooperation until Nyx is eliminated.

Underlined 2: No you wouldn't. Because that would've drawn obvious attention onto you. In addition, GP's claim was VERIFIED by Wen (and vice versa with Wen to GP). You would be stupid to try and fight against that. SP's claim is merely frosting on the cake (though we can't say for sure if he was honest, or if it served a means in pushing for your lynch). So the fact that you let their claims coast on by is EXACTLY what you'd want to do.

Uh, no, I would? Maybe you wouldn't, but if I was actually scum, I'd absolutely leverage Wen's clear on my kill ability

Italicized: Whoops, look what happened to Shinori. Also, who says you have to nail someone 'townie-looking'? All you have to do is aim for someone you thought was suspicions, and there you go- you have a semi-safe kill to conduct. (And if others agree, who can disagree with your vig shot of choice?)

What the hell? Green Poet claimed that kill. She's cleared. Chances of outside contact with her are almost literally zero. If you don't believe her, this could stand; otherwise drop it like a rock. Yikes, I'm genuinely mad at that :/

Alright, true, you can't really falsify a kill framed as a misvig on someone who looks scummy. Still, I'd expect you to use your best judgment on whether or not I was actually trying to kill scum on any given night.

Townie-looking actions/posting is what any good ITP would want to do. You don't want to stick out like a sore thumb and paint yourself red and dance around in front of us with ITP on your forehead. You having played the townie role/persona isn't of any surprise, since you've clearly lied to us already on multiple occasions.

I've only lied about my own ability, which is 110% consistent with me playing Town. Being quiet as possible furthers my win condition in any likely scenario (correct claim town, correct claim mafia, altered claim, straight scum), and is in Town's benefit if I am allying with town, seeing as we don't waste time and energy or, God forbid, a lynch on me, plus I can continue to shoot scummy targets (admittedly at my own discretion) without drawing the night kill.

Underlined: Nice way of funneling/attempting to funnel protection from town. Not only are you making night town actions predictable to read, but also ensures that, if the protection roles out there are spent on you or GP, no one else is protected during the night phase. I see what you did there.

Guess what? Survival is a part of my win condition! I'm one of the town's most powerful assets. That was self-serving, yes, but assuming that I'm town, I'm one of our strongest assets. Not clean, but firing town-directed kills. And if protection stays on our two most powerful assets, GP and myself, that's a very good thing! Successful WIFOM to prevent kills is even better, but the idea should be to protect our vigilantes, who are out in the open and firing at mafioso.

Obviously you wanted EVERYONE'S eyes off of you and the fact that you're a night-killing ITP.

YES! I have to hide from town to hide from scum! That's kind of how mafia works!

Convenient claims are convenient under pressure/the threat of being lynched.

Like muddying up setup speculation or arguing that you or Sky_Paladin are roughly equally scummy and FAR less risky in terms of Town assets isn't an order of magnitude easier? Come on. This wasn't the most convenient option by HALF.

--------

I dunno. I'm not sold at all with Terrador's claim, tbh. And the fact that the win con jumps from "Townies dying to satisfy this wincon" to "Oh, but it's okay- you can survive WITH town and still win!" seems pretty awkward/unlikely. You may as well have been a townie in itself to begin with if it'd be so easy to side and earn a victory that way.

I reckon the idea was that this role would be passive, jumping on a WC once it came close to being fulfilled. And, at the start of the game, I'd call it anti-town! But from the FFM margin, and ESPECIALLY from the Refa margin, joining town is much more likely to result in victory.

And in lieu of the confession in itself + the fact that I'd rather keep Sky around (despite unproven JoAT shot/role):

##Unvote

##Vote Terrador

Huh, I honestly wasn't expecting this level of cooperation. Okay, who do you think we can consolidate a lynch on today?

Well, yeah. Being trusted and protected by town is the one way I'm winning after Wen called me out. Giving you protocols to make that easier is in my best interest, and, thankfully, yours.

As far as consolidation on a lynch... depends on how bad people think Eury's case on me now is. If they think it's bad, it could probably consolidate on her; otherwise, I think Sky is likelier. Breezy and Marth seem fairly high up on folks' lynch priorities, but I don't think we could consolidate those and Marth's martyr claim makes no sense if he isn't actually a martyr, from where I stand.

Euklyd's general read was ambiguous, whereas Mitsuki would've been a very implicating kill if you were caught. You managed to convince a lot of us here that Euklyd was a misvig made with good intentions, whereas you would not be able to do this on a proven mayor. As things stand, this is as likely a scenario as your current claims being true.

Alright, fair, Euklyd is a reasonable cover for a mafia kill, but who killed Mitsuki in that case? Another mafia sniper? ANOTHER killer? Unlikely. Food for thought.

Speaking of which, could you just fullclaim? Your initially not telling us the four names of the people you need dead for your first wincon seems like you understating your role again to avoid being lynched, and it only makes you seem scummier over time. One of the things I'd like to know specifically is if those four people are explicitly confirmed town by your PM.

Alright, but that was actually 99% of the claim.

I am self-aligned, and will ping as self-aligned if we have an alignment cop still alive. However, I'm immune to rolecopping. Beyond that, you know all that I do about my role. Oh, one last thing: the flavor is that I seduce the user, although there hasn't really been any notable flavor since FFM's rain of bullets, so I doubt that will come up.

pedit: Now, just how did I guess that Eury would vote you...? Going to parse through that wall in just a bit.

Of the options:

1. That implies that Terrador will actually HIT scum with the shot.

- Also, if Sky_Paladin's claim to the vig shot is also true, Terrador could easily claim that he took the night action and ended up hitting the same scum that Sky chose to take aim at. (Unless Wen goes to track or someone watches the target's location to verify that BOTH went to said location and killed/shot at the target, there is no real way to actually verify if Terrador had taken the shot at the person as well.)

I'd lose a claim war with Sky_Paladin, in all likelihood, if we're both even alive as of Day 3 (slim to no chance). I lose the claim war, then Sky is pretty much the last high-priority target. We might both target the same person, though.

2. If Terrador is left alive (and doesn't want to risk not hitting scum), all he needs to do is idle the kill and let scum do the killing next night phase (ergo, two townies wouldn't die). [Also relies on full protection for you in order to make it to next day phase. It's probable/likely to happen, but still a variable nonetheless.]

Plausible, yes. But if I were to idle, I would use that to demonstrate "hey, scum! hey, town! I'm out. Shooting me is a waste of time." That said, I don't expect anyone to trust that, so I'll continue to hunt scum.

And yeah, I rely on full protection, but if I'm shooting at someone suspicious--I want to hit scum. It fulfills a wincon AND keeps me safe, as opposed to just getting closer to a wincon. I think we can wrap this up by Day 3, so I'm shooting at scum tonight.

OR.

If two townies die, look at the logic used with Euklyd's death. Because multiple people thought he was scummy, the kill looked viable/okay. History may be inclined to repeating itself in such a fashion, I'd say, and I personally wouldn't risk it.

The kill looked pretty shitty for a vig kill. It was a stretch. If I really wanted that shit to look clean, I'd pop a cap in Sky_Paladin, any day of the weak. It couldn't be passed off as mafia nomming a shark; at that point, he'd done virtually nothing but tunnel, and was near the top (if not at the top of) my priority lynch before my post-day analysis orgy.

We already have a solid confirmed (as much as can be confirmed anyways) Day vig. It becomes whether you guys want to take the gamble with leaving a night killing ITP still floating around who may still wish to accomplish his original win con and trusting in the fact that he CAN joint with town to win. (He also claims that it's "mod-confirmed" but we have no idea if that claim in itself is actually true, either.)

I think we've established that anything I'm putting forward is a claim. By "mod-confirmed", I mean "I'm also claiming that I've double-checked the facts of my role". Moving on.

@Green_Poet: I'm gonna go ISO the remaining players and see which lynch (besides me) is likeliest to consolidate.

[Green Poet]

With the exception of this bit:

If two townies die, look at the logic used with Euklyd's death. Because multiple people thought he was scummy, the kill looked viable/okay. History may be inclined to repeating itself in such a fashion, I'd say, and I personally wouldn't risk it.

I agree with the logic behind what you've said (I already established that Terra's reads need to be correct; we do not give him the benefit of the doubt if he hits townie). I forgot to take Sky's claim into account when thinking up these contingencies, and can see now that it's flawed in that regard.

Disregard my idea there for now, then. Back to the drawing board...

[Green Poet]

Terrador, are those four people whose characters you named confirmed by your PM to be town or not? You initially referred to them as "townies," and I would like to know what made you consider them this way.

[Terrador]

Alright, lynch priorities, so far as I can see (not including myself):

Junko: Breezy > Eury=Sky

kirsche: Eury > Sky > Junko > Marth=Breezy >>> Kopf=GP

Marth: Eury = Breezy

Wen: Bluedoom > Eury > kirsche

Breezy: Narrowed to Marth, GP, Eury, Sky, and kirsche.

Green Poet: You said Eury was the most viable lynch today, iirc?

Eurykins: Sky_Paladin > Breezy > Junko = kirsche, iirc.

Sky_Paladin: Eury > Marth >>> Breezy.

Assuming that town, collectively, decides that lynching me today isn't a good call (and it isn't, mates!), I think we could consolidate a case on Eurykins. I'll read over her ISO and others' reads again before casting a vote on her.

[Terrador]

Terrador, are those four people whose characters you named confirmed by your PM to be town or not? You initially referred to them as "townies," and I would like to know what made you consider them this way.

Aw, man, I completely forgot this was there, in all the excitement. They aren't explicitly stated as town, BUT I checked the Persona wiki and found that they're all aligned with S.E.E.S in Persona 3P*

*I was given a pass to rolespec, and it's 110% appropriate for this stage of the game. Don't judge me!

[Bluedoom]

Terra's claim sounds like an sk with a special win con for that d 6 which doesn't exist

anymore.

Still sold on my priority, we have the best chance of hitting scum with it.

[Bluedoom]

D6 rule I mean

[Terrador]

Terra's claim sounds like an sk with a special win con for that d 6 which doesn't exist

anymore.

Still sold on my priority, we have the best chance of hitting scum with it.

No. I asked after that D6 rule was removed if I could win with town, and the mods made absolutely clear that I could. I'm not mistaken about this.

[Wen Yang]

Though you ARE on my list of suspicions, Marth, I will agree with you on your list, since both of them ranks higher than you on my scumdar.

I'm also more inclined to let SP and Terrador live till tomorrow so we can sort out their mess with a clearer head, and also because there isn't long left in this day.

Therefore...

##Vote: Eurykins

[Green Poet]

Alright. Talked it over with Wen, and I have enough confidence in my case and this lynch.

##Unvote

##Vote: Eurykins

[Terrador]

Eury's been up on my priority list for awhile--mostly on others' reads, I'll admit, as I don't have the energy to pore through her previous walls today. Still, Wen and GP's confidence, plus the fact that I really don't like how padded her case on me is...

##Unvote (was I ever voting anyone to begin with?)

##Vote: Eurykins

This puts her at L-1, so whoever drops the hammer can be pretty much confirmed scum, yes?

[Terrador]

Eury's been up on my priority list for awhile--mostly on others' reads, I'll admit, as I don't have the energy to pore through her previous walls today. Still, Wen and GP's confidence, plus the fact that I really don't like how padded her case on me is...

##Unvote (was I ever voting anyone to begin with?)

##Vote: Eurykins

This puts her at L-1, so whoever drops the hammer can be pretty much confirmed scum, yes?

Assuming anyone drops the hammer. I'm hoping that doesn't happen, but I want my vote up there in case deadline sneaks up on me. But if they do cut the day short, that would be super scummy, etc. etc. we all know this.

...now is not the time for me to let my phrasing errors stand uncorrected. I was just pointing out that dropping the hammer would be super scummy. I'm looking at you, Junko--don't do it!

[CT075]

the level of play in this game is blowing my mind

[Junk]

Do we want to hammer now? We can lynch eury later. We should discuss some more before the hammer happens.

[Bluedoom]

Honestly I would've hammered now if people didn't make a big deak abou it.

I mean unless there is another sb who has info that confirms scum we're running around

in circles

[Elieson]

OK

This game is officially declared as finished, rated as Null and Void, with the game ending in a "LolDraw".

Too much information was modrevealed, and too many things were changed post-game start to allow this game to function properly aside from the 6 day limit, which was fine AFAIAC.

Please feel free to vent to me or other players in skype. Do not I repeat do not complain about the setup and or the game itself to Polydeuces.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Elieson

[Shinori]

Though you ARE on my list of suspicions, Marth, I will agree with you on your list, since both of them ranks higher than you on my scumdar.

I'm also more inclined to let SP and Terrador live till tomorrow so we can sort out their mess with a clearer head, and also because there isn't long left in this day.

Therefore...

##Vote: Eurykins

Alright. Talked it over with Wen, and I have enough confidence in my case and this lynch.

##Unvote

##Vote: Eurykins

I hate you two.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Shinori

[Eurykins]

DAMNIT ELIE. I WAS ABOUT TO SELF-HAMMER. D:

[Junk]

Well thats unfortunate. Are you guys going to tell who was scum and who was town?

[Sunwoo]

I have a lot to say about this game and certain people's plays, but I will wait for Elie to reveal other stuff before then.

[CT075]

terrador is a god for convincing two people to vote an unknown over a claimed anti-town

like

i don't even give a shit what he said he'd do

CLAIMED

ANTI

TOWN

Edited April 9, 2014 by CT075

[Wen Yang]

What. The. Fuck!?

[Bluedoom]

Tbf should nt she like, claim

still don't get why we're not lynching confirmed harmful itp