OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

As legendary as this thread is, it's only been around since the end of 2008; it is not yet even two years old. A few months is forever ago, and thus I say that Volug has been Top for a long, long time. Not quite "summer of Mia" levels, but you have to go halfway down High tier now before you hit a Dawn Brigade member that's not Volug or Sothe.

I'll wait to see if someone else shares your sentiment. As far as I am concerned a few months is not a long time, and I'm sure Volug has been out of Top tier longer than he has been in it over the course of this ~1 1/2 years.

[Interceptor]

I'll wait to see if someone else shares your sentiment. As far as I am concerned a few months is not a long time, and I'm sure Volug has been out of Top tier longer than he has been in it over the course of this ~1 1/2 years.

Do the semantics matter? The point that I am making here is the the Sothe/Volug relationship is at least partially circular, with one's position literally being used to justify the other. By this point, almost everyone else in the DB has taken their talents to South Beach. Both of them deserve a comparison that does not refer to the other.

[Anouleth]

Who are we supposed to compare them to? Cross-team comparisons are disgusting things to try, and both of them are too far seperated from any other DB members to be accurately compared. Obviously Volug >>> Nolan, and Sothe >>> Nolan, but that doesn't tell us whether they should be in Top or High tier. Certainly, I think they should both be above Mia (T), but below Titania (T).

[dondon151]

Do the semantics matter? The point that I am making here is the the Sothe/Volug relationship is at least partially circular, with one's position literally being used to justify the other. By this point, almost everyone else in the DB has taken their talents to South Beach. Both of them deserve a comparison that does not refer to the other.

Well, as Anouleth has pointed out, the best you can do is to compare Sothe and Volug to units with completely different availability in completely different circumstances filling disparate roles. And this won't even solve the problem of "are they good enough to be at the bottom of top tier, or are they only good enough to be at the top of high tier?" It is pretty easy to show that they fit snugly between Ike, Haar, Mia, and Titania, but there's really no comparison that we can make that can clearly place them in top or high tier. It's all about how we significant we perceive their contributions to be.

[Interceptor]

Obviously Volug >>> Nolan, and Sothe >>> Nolan, but that doesn't tell us whether they should be in Top or High tier.

Is it really that obvious? Sothe is not stomping his last five regular deployments plus Endgame, which is exactly what Nolan is doing.

[Anouleth]

Is it really that obvious? Sothe is not stomping his last five regular deployments plus Endgame, which is exactly what Nolan is doing.

I suppose Sothe will just have to settle for stomping his first 8 deployments, which is exactly what Nolan is not doing.

And really, say we bench Nolan. Who cares? Throw Beastfoe + Vantage on Volug instead, have Volug + Tauroneo kill Ike in 3-13. Nolan is good in Part 3, maybe even your best character in 3-6, but he's not the force of nature that Sothe is in Part 1.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Slowking

[dondon151]

Nolan is not stomping his part 1 deployments either outside of 1-1. In fact, if we do a straight numerical comparison between the two characters of Maps Stomped Before 4-E:

Sothe: 7 of 14

Nolan: 6 of 15

Also, at least to me, it seems like that Sothe's non-stomping deployments in parts 3 and 4 are about equal in magnitude of contribution to Nolan's non-stomping deployments in part 1. To illustrate this, we have Nolan in 1-4, for example, trading hits with cats and tigers and grabbing the occasional kill, much like Sothe in 3-6 and 3-13, also trading hits with cats and tigers and grabbing the occasional kill.

I'd also hazard to consider Nolan as stomping 3-13, as the bulk of the work there is done by Jill. If Ike's too fast or too durable, Volug can accompany her (Jill only has 7 move in this map, which kind of sucks).

So Sothe already has a small numerical lead, and this is before we factor in the weight of the chapters. Chapters 1-2 through 1-4 have no other units that can replicate Sothe's utility. Even in 1-5, Sothe can stand on the bottom tile facing off the right gap and he'll go through almost an entire Iron Knife obliterating the enemies foolish enough to attack him with a height disadvantage (this is indeed a sight to see). Until 1-7, Sothe has no serious competition outside of Volug, and Volug doesn't have 2 range. In 1-8, your starting positions are forced, and Sothe's starting position just happens to give him the responsibility of routing the greatest portion of the map with the smallest amount of support.

Once we get into parts 3 and 4, where Nolan's potential kicks in, he faces a lot more competition than Sothe does. First, there's Volug, whose offense is universally superior except for the fact that he has to waste 2 turns getting his gauge up. Next, there's the BK, whom Jill can pick up and drop in the middle of the swamp such that the amount of slaughter that ensues over the subsequent enemy phase almost entirely makes up for the fact that he wasn't there for the first 5 turns of the chapter. On 3-12, there's Tauroneo, who is ridiculously durable and can be strategically dropped such that he faces minimal chance of death while maximizing damage. In your part 4 maps, you have units from the GMs plus laguz royals that completely obliterate Nolan statistically, particularly if you haven't been hanging around in 3-13 blicking laguz.

EDIT: Wow, Anouleth articulated what I wanted to get across a lot more concisely.

Edited August 2, 2010 by dondon151

[Interceptor]

I suppose Sothe will just have to settle for stomping his first 8 deployments, which is exactly what Nolan is not doing.

Sure, other than the fact that Sothe is not stomping 8 chapters even if you count 1-6 twice, or that Nolan's getting at least partial credit for his clutch performance in 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, and 1-4.

And really, say we bench Nolan. Who cares? Throw Beastfoe + Vantage on Volug instead, have Volug + Tauroneo kill Ike in 3-13. Nolan is good in Part 3, maybe even your best character in 3-6, but he's not the force of nature that Sothe is in Part 1.

Eddie for God tier, for saving us dozens of turns in 1-P.

EDIT:

EDIT: Wow, Anouleth articulated what I wanted to get across a lot more concisely.

Also, both of you missed the point that I was trying to make.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Interceptor

[Paperblade]

BTW, 1-P without Edward.

Turn 1: Micaiah attacks bandit from 2 spaces above him, Edward moves 1 to the right of her, trades her his stuff. The bandit should move 1 north of Micaiah to attack her.

Turn 2: Move 2 to the left of the bandit and kill him. Edward moves next to Micaiah and unequips his weapon. He gets attacked, but he does no damage and Micaiah is out of range of the bandit anyway.

Turn 3: Micaiah moves 2 right and 2 down and herbs. Edward moves 1 below her.

Turn 4: Edward to random corner. Leo kills bandit from 1 spot below Micaiah. Miccy moves down 4 and 1 right and herbs.

Turn 5: Micaiah moves 3 up and 1 right and Herbs. Leo moves 1 space to the right of her.

Turn 6: Leo attacks Bandit if Micaiah can’t kill it, Micaiah finishes it.

Turn 7: Leo moves 1 left and 2 down, attacks Bandit. Micaiah moves down 3 and herbs.

Turn 8: Leo attacks bandit.

Turn 9: Leo attacks the same bandit, Micaiah moves 1 right and kills it. Level up, +mag and other stuff. Herb get.

Turn 10: Leo moves 1 down and attacks bandit. Micaiah herbs if she can’t kill it.

Turn 11: Leo kills bandit if it’s still alive. Micaiah moves 1 down and 1 right and Herbs.

Turn 12: Micaiah moves 1 left and Herbs.

Turn 13: Leo attacks bandit, Micaiah finishes.

Turn 14: Micaiah moves 2 right and herbs.

Turn 15: Leo attacks. Micaiah moves 2 left and herbs if she can’t kill the bandit.

Turn 16: Micaiah kills bandit (should level), Leo moves 1 down and 4 right.

Turn 17: Leo moves 2 up. Micaiah moves 2 right and 2 up and gives him the Vulnerary.

Turn 18: Micaiah attacks boss, Leo Vulneraries.

Turn 19: Micaiah attacks boss, Leo Vulneraries if he can’t kill it (he levels if he kills him)

Turn 20: Micaiah kills boss.

Note that if Micaiah gets Magic both times and the level 4s don’t proc HP, it’s possible to do this in 18 turns, I would say 19-20 is more reasonable.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Paperblade

[Narga_Rocks]

BTW, 1-P without Edward.

Turn 1: Micaiah attacks bandit from 2 spaces above him, Edward moves 1 to the right of her, trades her his stuff. The bandit should move 1 north of Micaiah to attack her.

Turn 2: Move 2 to the left of the bandit and kill him. Edward moves next to Micaiah and unequips his weapon. He gets attacked, but he does no damage and Micaiah is out of range of the bandit anyway.

Turn 3: Micaiah moves 2 right and 2 down and herbs. Edward moves 1 below her.

Turn 4: Edward to random corner. Leo kills bandit from 1 spot below Micaiah. Miccy moves down 4 and 1 right and herbs.

Turn 5: Micaiah moves 3 up and 1 right and Herbs. Leo moves 1 space to the right of her.

Turn 6: Leo attacks Bandit if Micaiah can’t kill it, Micaiah finishes it.

Turn 7: Leo moves 1 left and 2 down, attacks Bandit. Micaiah moves down 3 and herbs.

Turn 8: Leo attacks bandit.

Turn 9: Leo attacks the same bandit, Micaiah moves 1 right and kills it. Level up, +mag and other stuff. Herb get.

Turn 10: Leo moves 1 down and attacks bandit. Micaiah herbs if she can’t kill it.

Turn 11: Leo kills bandit if it’s still alive. Micaiah moves 1 down and 1 right and Herbs.

Turn 12: Micaiah moves 1 left and Herbs.

Turn 13: Leo attacks bandit, Micaiah finishes.

Turn 14: Micaiah moves 2 right and herbs.

Turn 15: Leo attacks. Micaiah moves 2 left and herbs if she can’t kill the bandit.

Turn 16: Micaiah kills bandit (should level), Leo moves 1 down and 4 right.

Turn 17: Leo moves 2 up. Micaiah moves 2 right and 2 up and gives him the Vulnerary.

Turn 18: Micaiah attacks boss, Leo Vulneraries.

Turn 19: Micaiah attacks boss, Leo Vulneraries if he can’t kill it (he levels if he kills him)

Turn 20: Micaiah kills boss.

Note that if Micaiah gets Magic both times and the level 4s don’t proc HP, it’s possible to do this in 18 turns, I would say 19-20 is more reasonable.

I never worked it out and guessed mid-twenties. That's a little faster than I thought possible, but Ed still saves 12 turns. A dozen, not dozens. You can maybe get 18, but you can maybe get 6 with Ed, right? And 19 or 20 compares to 7 as about a dozen. If you get unlucky with wrath, that's 8, right?

Would anyone really be so upset if we did:

Top

Haar

Ike

Reyson

High

Volug

Sothe

Mia/Titania

Titania/Mia

?

I mean, sure, people want Reyson to drop, but herons are tough to tier anyway and I'd rather not worry about him at the moment. I'm also not feeling like delving into Mia at the moment (don't have time anyway).

[grandjackal]

Hate to nitpick, but...

Once we get into parts 3 and 4, where Nolan's potential kicks in, he faces a lot more competition than Sothe does. First, there's Volug, whose offense is universally superior except for the fact that he has to waste 2 turns getting his gauge up.

That being the issue. Those 2 turns plus the extra kills out of player phase that Nolan gets over Volug grassing is proving it's worth at least in 3-6 and 3-13.

3-12? Sort of wish we had stats there, but I'd imagine that yeah, Volug's probably beating everyone's ass there.

Also, you seem to be missing something here. Nolan is competing at this point. Sothe is not. Sothe is clearly worse than some of these people.

Next, there's the BK, whom Jill can pick up and drop in the middle of the swamp such that the amount of slaughter that ensues over the subsequent enemy phase almost entirely makes up for the fact that he wasn't there for the first 5 turns of the chapter.

Yet I could get more reward out of it by doing stuff while he's not around. If the same goal is accomplished, why would I not actually do with teamwork if it can only make 3-12 and 3-13 easier?

Though if we ARE going that route, this hurts Volug just as much, since each chapter that's quick finished is less chance of him getting to SS rank.

On 3-12, there's Tauroneo, who is ridiculously durable and can be strategically dropped such that he faces minimal chance of death while maximizing damage. In your part 4 maps, you have units from the GMs plus laguz royals that completely obliterate Nolan statistically, particularly if you haven't been hanging around in 3-13 blicking laguz.

Well here it can't really be argued I guess. A quick finish of 3-12used rto be insta-crowning Taur and just having go down the ledge into the moshpit and watch him clean house.

But again, if we're going this route, then this is a metric ton more turn saving utility than units like Zihark could ever claim.

[Anouleth]

I mean, sure, people want Reyson to drop, but herons are tough to tier anyway and I'd rather not worry about him at the moment. I'm also not feeling like delving into Mia at the moment (don't have time anyway).

Oh, everyone has time to delve into Mia ;)

Really, I don't think anyone really minds where Reyson goes, but I agree being at the top of the list is a little bit excessive.

[-Cynthia-]

I like Narga's solution except for the slashing. I'm not a big fan of characters sharing a spot on tier lists except for weird situations (like Ninian/Nils).

[grandjackal]

I like Narga's solution except for the slashing. I'm not a big fan of characters sharing a spot on tier lists except for weird situations (like Ninian/Nils).

I think the reason he slashed out Mia and Titania there is because their positions are still being debated, and he's not quite ready to place one above the other until it's seen through.

[Narga_Rocks]

I like Narga's solution except for the slashing. I'm not a big fan of characters sharing a spot on tier lists except for weird situations (like Ninian/Nils).

Actually, it wasn't true slashing like Giffca and Cain. It was pointing out that the result would be one of those two. Hence listing them twice and swapping which went where. It remains to be determined where best to place them, but I will not be placing them as equal because they are quite different in what they give us.

[dondon151]

I don't think Reyson is good enough to warrant being over Sothe and Volug. I also have the impression that Sothe and Volug are top and not high (but then again, impressions don't mean anything), but if this is a necessary compromise, then I'll live with it.

[Colonel M]

*Sigh*.

Well, I guess I can put aside Lunatic Mode and try to Zerg Rush FE10 to see a stance on Mia vs. Titania again. With growths in play, it might be easier to make an argument both ways, so might as well try it for the hell of it.

[Mekkah]

Reyson simply doesn't have the availability to be a tier over Sothe and Volug. If they move down to High, so should Reyson.

[Soren37]

While Reyson doesn't have the availability, he comes at a high enough level (15) to know both Vigor and Bliss, and he'll learn Sorrow pretty quickly, too. We also don't have to worry about the transformation gauge in this game, as we get Olivi Grass and Laguz Stones like candy, so you can't really say he's only affecting one person per turn.

If Reyson does drop though, he should at least be higher than Leanne. Leanne's "only affect 2 people ever" is so bothersome I have no idea why they put it in. The only reason you shift her now is to get the +1 MOV and the Avo bonus.

[dondon151]

While Reyson doesn't have the availability, he comes at a high enough level (15) to know both Vigor and Bliss, and he'll learn Sorrow pretty quickly, too. We also don't have to worry about the transformation gauge in this game, as we get Olivi Grass and Laguz Stones like candy, so you can't really say he's only affecting one person per turn.

We don't get Laguz Stones "like candy" until 4-E. Until then, you have 2 uses from Nealuchi (he is forced to use 1 in 2-P), 3 uses from Lethe, 3 uses from Kyza, 3 uses from Skrimir, and 3 uses from Muarim (these last 2 don't count since you don't get them until part 4). Now, we'll want Reyson to have Laguz Stones for 3-5, 3-8, 3-10, 3-E, and 4-2, which allocates 5 of the remaining 8 uses to him. That leaves only 3 uses for other laguz throughout parts 2 and 3, which is rather few, given that you'll want at least 1 use on 2-2 to make Lethe, Mordecai, or Nealuchi usable and you'll want 2 uses on 3-10 to get Ulki and Janaff in fighting shape ASAP.

Edited August 3, 2010 by dondon151

[RNG Princess]

I think Volug should move down to High instead of Sothe moving up to Top tier, Sothe and Volug have enough flaws to keep them out of Top Tier.

I think Reyson is second best for endgame, and Leanna ready to refresh 2 can come close to his 1 turn wait to transform. IMO he should move down to High.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Fenrir]

reyson and volug down to high makes much more sense, Ike and Haar are two characters with hardly any flaws, haar has thunder magic and Ike doesn't have much two range but they still will beat the crap out of whatever they go against the entire game.

[Fayt Zelpher]

reyson and volug down to high makes much more sense, Ike and Haar are two characters with hardly any flaws, haar has thunder magic and Ike doesn't have much two range but they still will beat the crap out of whatever they go against the entire game.

Correction: Ike doesn't have much 2 range for the first half of part 3. He's got wind edges and... that's about it. Of course, he doubles and kills every mage he comes in contact with even with wind edges, and with a support, he really doesn't care that his resistance is fairly poor. Then, in part 4, he's completely invincible and has 1-2 range, along with a +5 defense bonus and he's practically untouchable, and he takes less than 5 damage even when he is hit on occasion.

The fact is that Haar has to fear mages a lot more than Ike does because Haar doesn't support build nearly as well because he's of doing his own thing all game. At least 7 movement means that someone like Mia can stay up with him all game and they can accelerate their supports a bunch.

[Interceptor]

Ike can also use the (admittedly limited) Storm Swords for 1-2 range, though he may be sharing with Mia for a while. Personally, I don't consider 1-2 range to be a deal-breaker for a unit until 3-8, where we can forge Hand Axes. Prior to that, damage output at 1-2 is usually lame or limited enough that only certain units can effectively employ it anyway.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Ike can also use the (admittedly limited) Storm Swords for 1-2 range, though he may be sharing with Mia for a while. Personally, I don't consider 1-2 range to be a deal-breaker for a unit until 3-8, where we can forge Hand Axes. Prior to that, damage output at 1-2 is usually lame or limited enough that only certain units can effectively employ it anyway.

Of course, that means that Ike's only got two chapters (3-8 and 3-10) where he has to worry about that, because he gets Ragnell before the start of 3-11, and then he's got all the 1-2 range that he could possibly want. Of course, that really gets into a discussion of how important is 1-2 range, and that's not one that I feel qualified to make. All I can say is that sword mainers (and especially those locked to swords - really only TB's) are going to be worse than those that have axes or lances, because they both have much better 1-2 range options.