The big promo path topic

[Mekkah]

The big promotion path analysis thread! Personal experience can jump out of a 10 stage building, and so can "it suits his caps/class/outfit better".

Here are my choices (and advice I would give).

Amelia

Cavalier

Paladin

First, there is no reason to go with Knight over Cavalier, or General over Great Knight. You sacrifice movement (and in the first case, significant amounts of it) for very very slight stat advantages. Cavalier also has swords, a very huge advantage (Steel Sword has 1 more Mt than Iron Lance, and it also makes her good against axe users rather than bad). General brings Great Shield to the table, but by the time Amelia is that high, she generally has little to worry about anyway.

After Cavalier, it is good old 2 movement versus axes. 8 movement is a lot of flexibility, and if it means keeping up with other mounted support partners, by all means do it. Great Knight offers slightly better battle performance due to axes and better promo bonus (namely +2 hp/+1 def).

Artur

Bishop

-1 hp, +1 mag, +1 skl, -1 res, a.k.a. nothing to worry about. Anima magic is better than Light, no dispute about it, but it's only slightly (1-2 points difference between Lightning/Shine and Fire/Thunder), and Bishop has that 1 mag bonus. What's much more substantial is tripled might against Monsters, effectively allowing Artur to OHKO, or at least ORKO every kind of them except Draco Zombies/Demon King. As a Sage, he will likely fail to ORKO Cyclopses and Elder Baels without Ivaldi, and Ivaldi is also the last Sacred Twin you get.

Colm

Rogue

Only because this way, he can steal midgame/lategame items Assassin cannot get. Nothing else really matters. Not needing Lockpicks is a nice bonus as he no longer will need to use a slot in his inventory. The only disadvantages are -1 hp (lol) and no Silencer (who cares).

Cormag

Wyvern Knight

There's pretty much only one reason for this, and it's +3 Speed. Cormag can be somewhat shaky on doubling, and doubling allows him to do twice as much damage as he would do otherwise. Admittedly, Pierce pales in comparison to the statistical leads and swords that Wyvern Lord offers, so if Cormag is Spd blessed or receives a Speedwing, he should probably go Wyvern Lord instead. Very debatable.

Ewan

Shaman

Summoner

It's all he's good for: Summoning. If you're going to use crap like Ewan, you might as well give him secondary utility. But really, like with Amelia, once he hits the last tier, his problems (sucking massively) are pretty much over (though when talking reasonably, so is the game), so this doesn't matter much.

Forde

Great Knight

Forde's Str is nothing too great, so unless his support partner Kyle goes Paladin, he will probably want those axes more than he wants 2 more movement.

Franz

Paladin

Like with Forde and Amelia, it is between 2 mov and axes. Franz is more likely to want the Paladin though, because his best support partner (Seth) likes to run really fast, and the support bonuses from that alone (+2 atk/+2 def/+5 avo) are worth pretty much as much as having axes when you want them. Again, no crime in going with Great Knight.

Garcia

Hero

Warrior has 1 more def and 1 more res, which pales in comparison to +1 hp and +2 spd from Hero. Any more Spd for Garcia means more opportunities to DA, which in turn means using that great Atk twice. Neither swords nor bows are going to help him a lot considering he already has the best of both worlds with axes, but I think we can all agree that having a little bit more hit up close is more useful than up far and practically requiring a trade to be able to be exposed on enemy phase. Plus, his swords start at C, and his bows at E. Don't worry about capping his Str early - he only averages 25 Str at 20/10, a level he will only reach in endgame if ever. Before that, the Hero benefits are clearly more significant, since they apply from promo point. And who needs more Str if you have this much raw Atk, anyway?

Gerik

Hero

Statistically, we're talking about +1 hp, -1 str, +1 skl, +1 spd, -1 def, -1 res (+ for Hero, - for Ranger). You could debate about it, but in the end, one is not going to save him more than the other. So what is left? The fact that Gerik's new weapon is going to be all the 2-range he's getting, that's what. And I would definitely take Hand Axes over bows, for obvious reasons: FE8 is full of enemies you can ORKO with whatever you carry, but with only swords and bows, you can't get both ranged and melee enemies, while with a shiny Hand Axe you can. And then axes also give him WTC, and don't require him to be traded with after shooting in order to counter a majority of enemies. The only possible argument I would see is that Nidhogg competition is very low, but he would have to go from D to S pretty much without using swords - definitely not worth the small benefit of Nidhogg in lategame when he kicks about as much ass with something like a Killer Axe/Edge/Bow anyway.

Gilliam

Great Knight

General wins raw stats, no doubt about it: +1 hp, +1 skl, +1 spd, +2 res. But in every other aspect, Great Knight wins. 1 more movement is certainly significant (suddendly he is able to keep up with people with 6 move), and he gets move again for what it's worth. Great Shield definitely sucks, it's like some extra avoid that hardly ever triggers. Both have full weapon triangle, too.

Joshua

Swordmaster

When you crit, you kill 99% of the time. Do you want to crit 15% more per hit, or do you want an ability that makes you kill half the time you crit? Hmmm. Lockpicking and extra Fog of War vision is of course appealing to an extent, but there's many more substitutes available (Colm, Rennac, buyable Torches/Torch Staff/Door Key/Chest Key). Better promo bonuses are just the kicker. Think 2 hp and 1 str vs lol 1 res. That one point of Str means a lot for Joshua, who often doubles, and when he crits it's 3 extra points of damage.

Knoll

Summoner

Like with Ewan, if you're going to suck at fighting, you may as well do something unique. No need for stupid anima magic - dark is more powerful anyway.

Kyle

Great Knight

See Forde, except his Str _is_ good, and replace Kyle there with Forde. At any rate, that 1 extra Spd that Great Knight gives will prove significant to Kyle.

L'Arachel

Valkyrie

They're practically the same. Anima magic is better against most enemies, but only slightly, whereas Light magic is significantly better than Anima against Dark users, and those are more common in FE8 than in any other game.

Lute

Mage Knight

Like with Garcia, that extra Mag cap room is worthless when not reached that, and doesn't matter much when everything is being murdered anyway. So extra movement and any other horsie advantages are superior. Plus, she can now actually use Thunder without losing speed, so her Atk+AS sum is actually higher before the cap is reached (which, by the way, only happens at 20/10, when you have Excalibur for lolOHKOs anyway), and she gains 1 more Mag upon promo to begin with. The only reason for Sage would be to use Light magic for WTA against darkies. But unlike L'Arachel, Lute has other benefits that actually matter when she doesn't go with the Light magic route.

Marisa

Swordmaster

Same as Joshua, except she now loses out on 1 Spd instead of 1 Res. Oh no!

Moulder

Bishop

Slayer is the kicker, really. Much more substantial than the slight power boost of anima tomes.

Natasha

Bishop

Because otherwise her damage output sucks against everything, rather than against everything not a monster.

Neimi

Ranger

+2 hp and +1 str for Sniper side looks convincing, no? +1 def/+1 res does a lot to offset that, and then factor in the mount and dun dun duh DUN swords...yeah, no contest. Screw ballistae, obviously.

Ross

Fighter -> Hero

Roughly the same reasoning as Garcia. This is assuming Colm is being raised and promoting. If he's not, go Berserker instead.

Tana

Falcoknight

WHAT? Falcoknight? Yep. The main reason people like Wyvern Knight seems to be the extra con to stop them from losing Spd. If you like them to stop losing Spd, go use swords. +30% avo and +2 def against every axe user seems a hell lot more important than some tiny bits of AS and avo against other stuff. Pierce is a very laughable skill that can be translated into a tiny bit of extra crit (not Swordmaster level, think more like 5% extra overall taking into account doubles). For what it's worth, Falco also has better promo bonuses: +2 hp, -1 skl, +1 def, +1 res.

Vanessa

Falcoknight

See Tana.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Mekkah

[Vykan12]

L'Arachel

Valkyrie

They're practically the same. Anima magic is better against most enemies, but only slightly, whereas Light magic is significantly better than Anima against Dark users, and those are more common in FE8 than in any other game.

A promoted L'arachel has 6 con, meaning most tomes weigh her down. Thus, going mage knight gives her an extra 2 AS and 4 avo in most situations. Now, assuming you're promoting L'arachel immediately, then her 10/1 spd is only 13.1, so anima definitely suits her better.

[Florete]

A promoted L'arachel has 6 con, meaning most tomes weigh her down. Thus, going mage knight gives her an extra 2 AS and 4 avo in most situations. Now, assuming you're promoting L'arachel immediately, then her 10/1 spd is only 13.1, so anima definitely suits her better.

I have to agree with Vykan on this one. Even though I almost always make her a Valkyrie (I love the class) I must admit that Anima's advantages outweigh Light's minor advantage against dark magic.

[Erk]

I must question Ross Hero. No Rosszerker?

[Lord Raven]

He said that Hero Ross was assuming Rogue Colm.

[Junkhead]

I have to agree with Vykan on this one. Even though I almost always make her a Valkyrie (I love the class) I must admit that Anima's advantages outweigh Light's minor advantage against dark magic.

So what?

I could just use the nightmare editor to give her the abily to use anima magic, and to use dark magic...you don't even need cheats .

[Nestling]

I lol'd at Ewan as a summoner.

Ewan, with Valni abuse, works MUCH better as a Druid.

Except that he gets weighed down by the super heavy tomes.

[Tino]

So what?

I could just use the nightmare editor to give her the abily to use anima magic, and to use dark magic...you don't even need cheats .

Except that hacking is even worse than cheating. <_<

I lol'd at Ewan as a summoner.

Ewan, with Valni abuse, works MUCH better as a Druid.

Except that he gets weighed down by the super heavy tomes.

He fails hard anyway, and since he does, he can at least get *some* usefulness out of summoning.

[Original Alear]

So, I have to admit I'm only half interested (I mean, it's FE8 *snores*) but does this topic assume no creeping in valni, ruins, or map (not to mention arena)? Because if not, you've got no call to be throwing "crap" around in the same sentence as Ewan and Amelia.

+2 hp and +1 str for Sniper side looks convincing, no?

You forgot sure shot, the most important skill in the game.

She goes sniper. No contest.

[Mekkah]

Yes, this is assuming no abuse whatsoever.

Thus, going mage knight gives her an extra 2 AS and 4 avo in most situations.

Only when using Shine vs Thunder...though now that I look at it, Mage Knight gets C anima while Valkyrie gets D Light for some reason. I assumed they'd start with an E for both.

soul1112, I thought I excluded the most moronic propositions for arguing for a character's worth in the first sentence of this thread, but you managed to come out on top either way. Congratulations.

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

You forgot sure shot, the most important skill in the game.

She goes sniper. No contest.

I hope you're joking about that. Snipers fail in most of the FE games they're in, and Sure Strike is useless and unnecessary (they're going to hit their enemies anyway).

Edited February 27, 2009 by Black Luster Soldier

[TheEnd]

Yes, this is assuming no abuse whatsoever.

This is almost an arbitrary condition in this game, since lol world map/bonus dungeons.

So what?

I could just use the nightmare editor to give her the abily to use anima magic, and to use dark magic...you don't even need cheats .

Dear God.

Edited February 27, 2009 by Arthur

[Vykan12]

This is almost an arbitrary condition in this game, since lol world map/bonus dungeons.

They're entirely avoidable. Even if you need to get into a skirmish, you can retreat immediately and continue on to wherever you were heading.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I would disagree on Natasha being a bishop. I've done both and I felt the horse just really made the valkyrie class much superior. I feel she has fairly good offense either way. I don't really bother using her for offense though except for the ruins.

[Janissary]

Ewan should definately become a Druid. Anima + Dark is a great combo for him. Anima provides light weight while Dark gives him power, plus he will get a dark S rank if he is used.

[Reaver]

Ross

Fighter -> Hero

Roughly the same reasoning as Garcia. This is assuming Colm is being raised and promoting. If he's not, go Berserker instead.

I think Ross to Hero is more prudent in general. I won't tl;dr, but I suggest that you look in the "Ross Promotion topic" because I posted a lot of info.

[Mekkah]

I read that all, and didn't find it convincing (at best you showed they were about even). Aside from the reasoning in this topic, there's also the fact that with Ocean Seal, he doesn't hinder Joshua/Garcia/Gerik with promotion issues.

For Natasha, I would be more tempted to go Valkyrie if they didn't give the class only 7 move in this game, only one more than Bishop. So it's Slayer versus 1 mov and mount. Well, and +1 mag for Valkyrie. But that still has her with only 15-16 mag upon promotion, so 20 atk with a Lightning tome, which isn't much at all, and she isn't even very likely to promote at 20.

For Ewan, feel free to statistically show that he ever wants to use anima as a Druid, because I can't see where he does.

Edited February 27, 2009 by Mekkah

[Nestling]

He fails hard anyway, and since he does, he can at least get *some* usefulness out of summoning.

And how is summoning useful in the slightest? Oh, a little guy that's pretty much like Rebecca against a knight at level 1.

Allright, here are his boosts, averagly.

Amina magic.

1 Full point of HP

1 More DEF

He's mage at heart, so he's going to NEED HP or DEF. Most magic users (Except Lyon) won't do too much to him, and EVERYBODY is slow enough that everthing doubles them, most of the time.

[Vykan12]

And how is summoning useful in the slightest?

Improves team durability by reducing enemy phase attacks. Particularly useful if you can get a gorgon to kill the phantom.

[Reaver]

I read that all, and didn't find it convincing (at best you showed they were about even). Aside from the reasoning in this topic, there's also the fact that with Ocean Seal, he doesn't hinder Joshua/Garcia/Gerik with promotion issues.

But that argument works both ways: Ross as a Hero means that he's not hindering Colm's promotion.

Also, I'm not sure I see the huge issue with "hindering" promotions: Eirika's route gives crests at chapters 10, 14, and 16. Ephraim's 10, 12, and 16. Understandably that's 3/4 of the necessary items. You do, however, get a Master Seal pretty early and you can use that. Before that turns into a shitstorm about hurting other units, both routes have ample Knight's Crests for Kyle/Forde/Franz (Ephraim even includes Gilliam, should you use him), you always have an ample amount of guiding rings (you get 4 on both routes). Going by just KnightCrest/HeroCrest/GuidingRing users, we're already at 11 units + Ephraim/Eirika + Tethys and whatever prepromos you like. Promotion won't be a problem if you give Ross the Master Seal; the Ocean Seal 100% blocks Colm.

Statistically, they are about equal. Ultimately I like the defensive edge on the Hero more.

[Martelé]

But that argument works both ways: Ross as a Hero means that he's not hindering Colm's promotion.

Colm is a thief. He does his job (stealing/chests) fine without being promoted. There are enough lockpicks available, iirc. Joshua/Gerik are melee units, so they need the promotion bonuses more than him since they will be facing much more combat.

[TheEnd]

They're entirely avoidable. Even if you need to get into a skirmish, you can retreat immediately and continue on to wherever you were heading.

Non-trainee promotions are entirely avoidable. Even if you get a promotion item, you can still not use it and continue with your 1st tier characters.

Flawed logic.

But I have no intention of derailing this thread with an abuse apology (even if it's much easier in Seima than, like, anywhere else). After all, I know that classes don't really matter at 20/20. Except in Colm's case, I guess.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Arthur

[Mekkah]

But that argument works both ways: Ross as a Hero means that he's not hindering Colm's promotion.

The difference is that Colm is only one unit that can still do what he's made for pretty much equally well without promoting. Hero Cresters are larger in numbers, and want their promo bonuses ASAP (especially Joshua for the 15% crit and Gerik for the axes).

Also, I'm not sure I see the huge issue with "hindering" promotions: Eirika's route gives crests at chapters 10, 14, and 16. Ephraim's 10, 12, and 16. Understandably that's 3/4 of the necessary items. You do, however, get a Master Seal pretty early and you can use that.

Ch16 is pretty damn late to promote, especially since the crest is in a chest at the end of the map. That means they only have five chapters left to perform promoted.

The Master Seal is available at either the start or the end of Ch15 (depending on which route you go), so that isn't much better.

Before that turns into a shitstorm about hurting other units, both routes have ample Knight's Crests for Kyle/Forde/Franz (Ephraim even includes Gilliam, should you use him), you always have an ample amount of guiding rings (you get 4 on both routes). Going by just KnightCrest/HeroCrest/GuidingRing users, we're already at 11 units + Ephraim/Eirika + Tethys and whatever prepromos you like. Promotion won't be a problem if you give Ross the Master Seal; the Ocean Seal 100% blocks Colm.

Eirika route only has one Knight Crest in a reasonably quick time, namely the one from Ch7. End of Ch13 (since the boss drops it) is quite late in a game where promoting ASAP gives such huge benefits.

Also, taking into account the Silver Card you buy things with now, Master Seal is worth 20k of goods.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Mekkah

[dondon151]

Non-trainee promotions are entirely avoidable. Even if you get a promotion item, you can still not use it and continue with your 1st tier characters.

Flawed logic.

This is pretty flawed logic too. Promoting a character that's at a promotion-ready level requires no extra time other than using the item in the preparations screen. Participating in tower/ruins/skirmish requires extra time and effort in leveling up and shit.

Edited February 28, 2009 by dondon151

[Vykan12]

Ch16 is pretty damn late to promote, especially since the crest is in a chest at the end of the map. That means they only have five chapters left to perform promoted.

The Master Seal is available at either the start or the end of Ch15 (depending on which route you go), so that isn't much better.

Isn't there a secret shop in 14 where you can buy promo items?