ITT I rank the characters

[Sunwoo]

I completed my first draft in 247 turns, and it was FE8. Of course, I took over for someone else with a team I had not picked, and I hadn't played FE8 in a long time. But still ...

[Progenitus]

Okay I lied. This will be my last post on the issue.

http://w11.zetaboards.com/Fusion/topic/7268672/1/

This debate is just one of many that embodies the ideals that I use for not only tiering characters, but doing personal rankings too.

The one thing I do want to explain, though, is that despite the fact that WJC and Reaver were arguing for different playstyles and such, they were both logically sound. There is more than one way to play the game, and as long as the points brought up are defended well with good logic, it's fine.

[Narga_Rocks]

I completed my first draft in 247 turns, and it was FE8. Of course, I took over for someone else with a team I had not picked, and I hadn't played FE8 in a long time. But still ...

How the? Still, Seth exists. Even if he just kills bosses for you and doesn't clear half the maps for you, I can't imagine getting above 200. And if you let him do anything more than that... Even without him, seriously how? Did you lack a flier?

Also, I disagree with dondon "only rng abusing on the final boss" or whatever. Chapter 9 he has Tana face the killing edge myrm. Her cod's gotta be at least 15%. I gave her the seraph and a draco to get the cod to 0 (survives a crit), but I couldn't reach 9 turns (10, thanks to Tana missing once with 80+% hit). Does anybody else hate the turncount targets that dondon and the others set? So tough. At least I got that energy ring in chapter 7? that dondon missed and still pulled the same 4 turns. Even got the pure water (if Seth had've missed the boss, it would've been 5 turns with no pure water, though, because Colm would've had to vulnerary on turn 4 and run away from the guy).

[Lord Raven]

Narga did you miss the "it was my first draft" part

[Narga_Rocks]

Narga did you miss the "it was my first draft" part

And the "not his team" part. Even so, I'm surprised it's even possible to end the game that slowly without arena abuse or boss abuse or something similar.

[Lord Raven]

It's possible to beat the game in however many turns you want, nothing surprising about that

[Narga_Rocks]

It's possible to beat the game in however many turns you want, nothing surprising about that

Of course you can complete it in 1000000 by bashing end turn in seize chapters or something, I'm just saying if someone is actively trying to go quickly, I'm surprised that there is any team that can be put together that goes that slowly despite a player's best efforts. Anyway, I allowed this to go a bit too far off topic, oops.

[Sunwoo]

How the? Still, Seth exists. Even if he just kills bosses for you and doesn't clear half the maps for you, I can't imagine getting above 200. And if you let him do anything more than that... Even without him, seriously how? Did you lack a flier?

Well, I can't tell you exactly where I could've shaved off those turns (I'm not going to lie, it was a horrible finish and I was just happy to get it done in the end), but first of all, Seth was banned. I had a flier, Vanessa, but because it was my first draft (and because I normally don't play using a lot of rescue-drops) I didn't figure out how to use her effectively until about halfway through. And then there was that little issue of Vanessa being a not-so-good combat unit in axeland+archers abound. She was my only other unit until Joshua came in, and she couldn't hold her own in battle, nor could she dodge reliably. To make this worse, she got screwed. I also wasted a few turns getting Joshua because Vanessa couldn't live, Eirika couldn't one-round the enemies, and I couldn't get Natasha attacked if I didn't want to eat a penalty. And I know I took a penalty on chapter 7 because undrafted Kyle got attacked and I was sick of restarting.

Still not an excuse, but I'm just glad I finished.

[Elieson]

Horace and I are able to complete Difficult mode FE8 in under 140 turns, without fliers or horses (except Lords that is, but their mounted contribution only existed in chapter 18 against gorgon eggs and Final2).

Also, this is my very first draft of FE8.

Prime, were you doing that took 200+ turns?

Edited February 16, 2012 by Elieson

[MacLovin]

He's new

I was overloaded with drafts

He wanted to try a draft.

I let him take over one of my fe8 drafts.

Also, I think he went slowly early on

[Sunwoo]

Heck, if anyone wants to look back at my log, it's "FE8 Draft Number 96" and I took some notes on why I took so long and what kept me from going faster. I know I lost a lot of turns in earlygame because of screwed Vanessa + Eirika solo for the first few chapters, then clearing out enemies in chapter 5 so that Natasha could recruit Joshua without getting attacked and making me eat a penalty, then actually taking a penalty for Kyle in chapter 8 after I got sick of restarting. I got better around the time Tethys and Saleh came in.

[Anouleth]

Eirika's leads when she's superior > Joshua's leads when he's superior

I don't know if I really agree. Eirika is superior in chapters:

P

1

2

3

4

18

19

Final

Even in Prologue and Chapter 1 Eirika is pretty meh: everything 2HKOes her and has decent hit. I see it as kind of a "Leonardo in early Part 1" status. Her only real advantage is existing. She's good in Chapter 2 where she can take advantage of the terrain and is one of the few people who double. She's meh in Chapter 4 since monsters are pretty easy. Chapter 18 is a chapter where you fight Eggs (hardly the most challenging opponent in the world). So I don't really accept that Eirika's time of being better is more important, since it includes a lot of pretty easy monster chapters and super-early chapters in which she's not so great anyway and is one of like four characters available to you. Certainly, while you could make a strong argument for Eirika being better than Joshua, you put Eirika a full three points ahead of Joshua. That is, you are saying that those easy monster chapters and prologue chapters are much, much more important than the entirety of midgame.

why no supports?

why ignore 1-2 range or staves?

Well, if you notice I mainly discussed their offense. Lute and Artur's support only gives half mt and half hit which rarely makes the difference on any ORKOes (I think it might let Artur 2HKO Great Knights with Elfire). Whereas Joshua's supports give half mt, half crit and full hit. So if anything, he's coming out ahead on the supports front.

If we're going to be using Artur and Lute for their staff utility, I certainly wouldn't recommend promoting them so late either since it will cripple their staff rank. Mend is not a particularly great staff especially when the game gives us like five other healers for free and we have the deployment slots to use them. In addition, healing in general is just not really very important when you have A rank supports giving tons of avoid and defense all over the place and your characters are a high level.

[Progenitus]

I don't agree with your specific arguments (for example, why isn't Eirika better in ch 17? Why did you still ignore 1-2 range? Why didn't you include the durability they gain from supports?). However it is possible that I need to adjust scores. It'll probably be easier to wait until I give out more the scores, because unless you're saying that Joshua > any of those three, it's hard to judge where the units should move, since I find it easier to compare units in the bracket you want him/her to move to (for example, if you want to move Joshua up to 7.5, it's easier to compare him to 7.5 characters than to say "the gap between Joshua and Eirika should close"). Feel free to remind me once I've posted the majority of the characters.

[Anouleth]

I don't agree with your specific arguments (for example, why isn't Eirika better in ch 17?

Because she isn't? While Eirika has more movement, she can't cross the mountains or the river, while Joshua can. Even if she does have more movement, it's not a huge map anyway with a lot of the enemies pretty close to your starting location. Statistically, there's not a huge difference between them. Eirika has some more defense and resistance, Joshua has some more HP and STR and critical and speed. I don't think there's a clear winner here, and that's equally true for a slower playthrough as for a faster one.

Why did you still ignore 1-2 range? Why didn't you include the durability they gain from supports?).

Because I wasn't discussing their durability. I wouldn't think there's a significant gap between their durabilities anyway, especially when loaded up with supports.

However it is possible that I need to adjust scores. It'll probably be easier to wait until I give out more the scores, because unless you're saying that Joshua > any of those three, it's hard to judge where the units should move, since I find it easier to compare units in the bracket you want him/her to move to (for example, if you want to move Joshua up to 7.5, it's easier to compare him to 7.5 characters than to say "the gap between Joshua and Eirika should close"). Feel free to remind me once I've posted the majority of the characters.

I think that Joshua should be adjacent to Eirika (and Colm, since again Joshua blows his combat out of the water). Failing that, he should be within 0.5 of her: so a 9 instead of a 9.5. Alternatively, Eirika could move down to a 7.5, or a combination of the two.

[Progenitus]

Ephraim

So Hector was around in FE7 and was like "Hey I'm the biggest baller lord ever".

And Ephraim is like "hey I beat you in liek every stat trolololol".

I don't really know what I need to say about Ephraim. His bases are very good. 23 HP/8 str/7 def are on par with the cavs, who also have slightly better HP/str/def than the majority of the team. 11 spd is basically only lower than the fast swordsmen and pegs; he's outspeeding everyone else. Then his growths, which are also really good; 55 str is awesome, 45 spd is decent (11 spd base means his spd overall is still great) and 35 def is above average. He even has good HP/skl/lck/res, just because he wants to. Then he promotes, albeit slightly late but who really cares. Good promo bonuses (including the horse) and gets a ridiculous prf weapon just like Eirika. His stats, without question, will be amongst the highest on the team.

His support list is good. Forde/Kyle/Tana/Duessel all at +3. Fire affinity is also very nice and mixes well with all four. He also has +4 Eirika, but since that starts at chapter 15 (and they start on opposite sides of the map) it's not really practical. He might run into issues with keeping up with the first three, but once he promotes he'll be fine. It's not like he even needs supports anyway, so if supports aren't your style, Ephraim is completely fine with ignoring them.

He's on par with Franz; while Franz does have his earlygame chapters where Ephraim doesn't exist, and has a horse/swords prepromotion, Ephraim's got his cool prf lance that one rounds knights and cavs. In addition, Ephraim will be a tad faster, which does matter early-midgame as Franz isn't doubling everything from the start (their raw stats are pretty similar otherwise). And once promotion comes around, Franz doesn't really win in anything.

Of course, like Eirika, Ephraim is heavily affected by the route split. However, unlike Eirika, his stats are so good that even though he rejoins underleveled, he can still hold his own. I believe he rejoins at 15/0, so his str/spd are actually very similar to a 20/1 unsupported Forde (fairly behind in HP/def though), which isn't too bad. Of course, losing all that rapage from chapters 9-14, and those lower stats (lower level + less supports) means his performance is significantly hampered. But he's still more than usable on Eir route.

Eir route: 6.5/10

Eph route: 9.5/10

[Progenitus]

Forde

Forde's pretty much a watered down version of Franz, right down to affinity.

Well, actually, Forde's support list is better. Forde arguably has the best support list in the entire game; Kyle/Franz/Vanessa, all good units, with both lords to boot, and Kyle/Franz/Ephraim are all +3 supports for great justice. Makes me wish Forde had a better affinity. After supports are done though, Forde is pretty much Franz with -2 str/spd/def assuming they're at equal levels. Still, being anything like Franz is a good thing. He still has a great class, aforementioned support list, etc., although he still misses out on ch 1-7 utility (5x doesn't really count), and being -2 str/spd/def is actually fairly significant.

Promotion: You'd think paladin because Franz is such a baller, but the lower stats means Forde might actually care about GK's higher stats over the mobility. You really can't go wrong with either one, so if you can't decide, flip a coin.

Yeah, it's a half-assed rating, but I can't really say much else. Decent all-around stats, weapon triangle control, mobility, and a great support list. He makes a good addition - though not game breaking - to any team.

8/10

[Progenitus]

Kyle

Kyle is, again, a cavalier with good stats. Again, he's a watered down version of Franz. Again, being anything like Franz is a good thing. So there's not much else I have to say, other than do a comparison to Forde, because I can.

Now Kyle is slightly better than Forde because his HP/str/def are quite a bit better, while Forde only has a marginal spd lead (note that Kyle also has +1 con on him). The differences aren't too pronounced at their base levels, but by, say, 20/1, Kyle has 2-3 HP, 4 str, 2 def, 1 con, while Forde only has 1 spd. Forde has a more flexible support list, but Kyle can still get full supports fairly easily (unless you restrict them from supporting each other, then Kyle has to get two of Ephraim/Colm/Lute, which will be a problem on Eir route). Of course if they support each other then their bonuses will end up being very similar, though Kyle has the better affinity. With supports included, Forde closes the str gap, but not completely, while Kyle can get a substantial def lead.

Promotion: Again, like Forde, it's up to you. GK can be tempting as Kyle's spd could use some help, but so does that 8 move paladin.

Of course the question now becomes whether or not Kyle deserves +0.5 over Forde. Kyle gets some stat leads, but they're not significant until promotion nears, so for over half of their availability they're very similar to each other. It seems like he does, but it could definitely change.

8.5/10

[Progenitus]

Tana

Flying is cool, but Tana's durability is a bit lacking.

Her str and spd bases are very good for her level (5 con sucks though), while her HP/def are alright. However, she's 4/0 when the rest of the team is liek 10/0. Unsurprisingly, this reduces her to having decent offense and poor durability relative to the team. She's taking 1-2 less hits than guys like Joshua (cavs are taking even more) and her offense doesn't particularly make up for that.

Her growths and supports further make her lopsided. Decent str, high spd, poor HP and def. Affinity that is purely offensive. Since she is several levels behind, her offense will quickly become good, but her durability will always be at the bottom of the pack.

Of course, flying saves her a lot. Vanessa obviously will start off stronger than Tana, but once Tana gains some levels, her offensive stats will be about the same as Vanessa even if Tana had no supports and Vanessa does. Durability is a different story, although vanessa needs her supports for that. Speaking of which, Tana's support list is ok (Ephraim/Innes are +3, Eirika/Cormag are +2), but being a flier, she's fine with little to no supports since she can be off doing flying stuff; ferrying, killing stuff over a river, etc.

Compared to Vanessa, no utility from ch 2-8 hurts, and having poor durability forever doesn't help either. But beyond that she's almost a carbon copy of Vanessa, particularly because Vanessa needs the supports to have that durability.

6.5/10

[Progenitus]

Amelia

Apparently IS did not learn their lesson with Wendy.

I mean seriously, wtf. Ross isn't even that good, but at least he joined with his bases in ch 2. Amelia's bases are just as bad, only she joins at liek ch 9. So she gets one shotted by everything and does terribad damage and has 4 move. wtf.

But maybe it gets better, right? I mean, as a trainee, she gains tons of exp, so maybe you only have to put up with this crap for 1-2 chapters? Unfortunately even when she promotes out of trainee, she's still 10-15 levels behind the rest of the team, if not more. Even if she somehow is at equal levels with the rest of the team, her only real significant points are her above average speed and high lck (joke stat), with below average str and average def. Until she catches up she will be one of the worst units on the team, if not the worst (I have to put this disclaimer because maybe you are using Dozla or some guy who starts off decent and ends up terrible). Are you really going to bust ass just for this?

Her support list is decent but nothing special. Franz/Neimi/Duessel at +3, although Franz might already be full, Neimi is mediocre, and Duessel is probably not used on Eir route, so that limits her options. You can work around it, but still...

Also, it seems that Amelia is even worse on Eirika route. She pops up in ch 9 with a speedwing in her inventory, but if you don't recruit her in ch 9, she comes back at ch 13 with another speedwing. So not recruiting her early means you get an extra speedwing. Of course it's been so long since I've played this game, I'm not sure if you steal the speedwing in ch 9, whether she will come at ch 13 with another. But if she does, that really is the nail in the coffin, and is probably worth subtracting half a point for Eir. route (unless someone proves this wrong).

Promotion: If you really want to use her for any reason, Cav -> GK. Cav is waaaay better than knight, and Amelia wants GK > Paladin for the better promo bonuses.

Amelia and Ewan fight for worst unit in the game. And Amelia might actually be the worst, since while Ewan's joining time and growths are even worse than her's, at least he's a little easier to train.

Eir route: 1/10

Eph route: 1.5/10

[Progenitus]

Innes

Why couldn't Innes be a ranger?

His bases are solid, especially for a guy joining in chapter 10 when the rest of the team is liek 12/0. To put this in perspective, he joins with Garcia's str and Eirika's speed (with average growths in both), so he's pretty ballin. 10 def is alright but nothing special. But unfortunately, it's a double edged sword. Being a sniper means he has no enemy phase presence, and this game has pretty weakass enemies. Even if he had epic growths to back up his good bases, his usefulness is limited as he's only killing one enemy per turn while many other good units can get a kill on player phase, plus several on enemy phase.

Still, when he joins - and at least until your 1st tiers promote - your 1-rangers that aren't Seth can't be one rounding everything on enemy phase, so for half of his availability he's still kicking ass and taking names. Once your team is capable of doing that - typically around ch 15-, he should probably be dropped, although it's not like he magically becomes awful; he can still nab one kill on player phase a turn, but that's about it.

And then we get to Eph route where he doesn't even show up until your 1st tiers promote, and he loses everything that made him good. Of course his stats are still decent so he can kill something once per turn, but that's nothing special.

Also, Innes is proof that IS are assholes. They make him a sniper, and then give him a PURELY DEFENSIVE AFFINITY. He literally has the worst affinity he could possibly get. Srsly, why does my sniper need def, avoid, crit eva, and hit, when they suck at countering enemies because of the whole 1-range deal? IS actually likes to do this a lot; Igrene AND Klein from FE6 have ice, as well as Wolt. Louise is light which is att/crit... but she has an auto-A with an ice affinity. Shinon from FE9 and 10 has thunder (def/avo lol), and especially in FE10 where he has more HP/def than 90% of your team and can barely even use it. I guess IS is like "well if we want to give a unit a good affinity for that unit they have to just suck" (Rebecca, Leo, etc)

Eir route: 7/10

Eph route: 4/10

[Progenitus]

Gerik

Gerik has some scary bases, especially for a tier 1 unit.

His str will be among the highest on the team, backed up with a good spd base. His HP/def are also slightly higher than the cavs, probably allowing him to take an extra hit as well. If you really wanted to, you could promote him instantly and he would have stats that match a 20/1 pally forde with comparable growths. I think that speaks for itself.

To top his stats off even more, his support list is pretty good. Tethys is +4, and everyone else on his list is +3 (even though two units on that list are Ross and Marisa). On Eir route, both Innes and Saleh are decent enough, and Joshua is always fine on either route. Of course his stats are so good he doesn't even need supports, but it can't hurt to have a good list, just in case you want Gerik to solo the map.

Of course, speaking of route, Eph route does hurt him a bit. He joins 3 chapters later at, I believe, the same base level, and Innes and Saleh are no longer decent options. And while his stats are still good, they aren't outstanding anymore, especially when you factor in more difficulty in getting supports. He's certainly good enough to use on Eph route, but he's not kicking ass and taking names... as much.

Promotion: Hero. Axes give him 1-2 range, which is probably more useful than Ranger having bows + slightly more move. Even though Gerik lacks the con to wield axes

It's unfortunate for Gerik that he doesn't have better availability and/or mobility. His stats are very nice, but someone like Franz, whose stats are generally good enough to get the job done, is better in those two departments, which makes Franz superior overall, and thus I must dock points off from Gerik for not being as badass.

Eir route: 9/10

Eph route: 8/10

[Progenitus]

Tethys

Yay dancer.

Like every dancer, she doesn't consume CEXP, isn't reliant on stats, lets your best unit act again, all that jazz. Of course this always makes them a PITA to rank. I'm too lazy to look more indepth in her, so I'm just going to throw her into the 9.0 bracket, with Eph route being 8.5 due to less availability (I didn't dock off as much as I did with Gerik because the fewer chapters -> lower stats doesn't bother her). Bite me.

Eir route: 9/10

Eph route: 8.5/10

Edited April 10, 2012 by IMPrime

[Progenitus]

Marisa

Okay, I'm going to assume Eir route here, as Eph route she joins ch 12 (as opposed to ch 10) at what I assume is the same level, and that really kills any sort of potential Marisa could have.

okay, so we have this dude named Joshua. He's a pretty cool guy, though not a baller. Pretty good bases for his joining time in ch 5, but his growths and overall potential are pretty average. Nice hat though.

Okay, so enter Marisa. She joins 5 chapters later at the same base level. At base level comparisons between the two, she loses raw HP, str, and def forever (even if by 1 base and 5 growth). She actually has a lower spd base (with +5 spd growth, but that doesn't really matter). She has less con. She doesn't even win skl. She has a minor lck and res lead to compensate for this.

Okay seriously, give me a break. What does Marisa do to ever stand out? She's basically Joshua except worse in everything. It's arguable that she doesn't even have better supports; her affinity is better, but Joshua can start supports earlier with Natasha and/or Artur, and the fact that Marisa's only +3 supports are with Gerik (which is fine) and Joshua (which doesn't count in this comparison, but is normally decent) means she might have problems getting full supports anyway. +2s with Tana/Tethys/Colm means she might get a C towards the end of the game, but it won’t help much.

Okay, but you may say "Hey, you should compare Marisa to all the fighters in the game and not just Joshua." I guess so. But if Marisa has nothing on joshua, and Joshua is just a decent unit, what does that say about her? Her str is awful, backed up by the fact that her affinity gives no att OR crit. Her durability *can* end up decent due to said affinity (+3 supports with Gerik and Joshua), but really, she starts off poor in everything, and after babying her offense is still poor and monoswords means no 1-2 range and trouble with the WTA? No way.

Okay, and that was for Eir route. Eph route she joins 2 chapters later. So Eir route we'd be looking at level 5 Marisa vs liek level 12ish other members. On Eph route it's level 5 Marisa vs liek level 15ish other members. If she wasn't bad enough on Eir route, being several more levels behind (as well as supports) means she's looking even worse than before.

Promotion: (edit) Assassin, as they have an exp bonus. SM has slightly better promo bonuses, but eh.

Marisa is definitely one of the worst units in the game. Not as bad as Ewan or Amelia (although on Eph route, Amelia literally is competition), but still...

Eir route: 3/10

Eph route: 2/10

Edited April 15, 2012 by IMPrime

[Progenitus]

L'Arachel

Poor L'Arachel. This is what happens when your late joining 1st tier healer has no redeeming qualities. FE6 Clarine could end up with a buttload of avo (and she wasn't even that late), while FE9 Mist eventually gained a Tellius horse (re-move after all actions, and again wasn't particularly late either). L'Arachel is basically Natasha that will have a slight spd and def lead at equal levels (loses HP, wins skl and lck, meh), and that's about it, and L'arachel only joins 2 levels above her, 7 chapters later. So because staves give the same amount of exp regardless of level, she will never close the level gap in a reasonable time.

More important than that, though, is the availability. Healing the team when they're weak and frail is much more important than healing the team when they're more capable of holding their own. Especially joining about 5 chapters before your team promotes and can really start going on rampages, this doesn’t leave a whole lot of time where her healing is useful. There’s really no point in using her when Moulder and Natasha are superior alternatives.

Her supports aren't even that good. Dozla and Rennac suck, Joshua/Innes/Eirika are +2, Ephraim is +3 but is route dependent (Eir route Ephraim is usable but nothing stellar).

Promotion: Valkyrie gets the exp bonus, while MK has 8 pow thunder over 4 pow Light. L’Arachel joins so underleveled that by the time she even promotes, there won’t be much time to gain levels (let alone levels through attacking as that’s when the exp bonus applies), so take MK.

L’arachel isn’t useless; having a staff and being on a horse and joining halfway through the game is more than a bunch of the really bad units have. But that’s all she really does have.

4/10

[Progenitus]

Dozla

Dozla is just sad.

In a world where many FE8 units are better than their FE6 and 7 counterparts, Dozla somehow manages to be worse, and that's even BEFORE HM bonuses. And Garret and Hawkeye are pretty bad. What does that tell you about Dozla?

Okay, but enough of comparing him to units outside FE8. 9 base spd is pretty bad. It's somewhat okay for ch 11, but it quickly just turns to crap. His max spd is barely better than the majority of your team will be at 20/1, if even that. His supports are pretty bad too (only +3 with L’arachel and Ewan).

Now to be fair, his HP/str/def at joining time is nice (and again his base spd for ch 11 is okay), so he’s pretty good for a few chapters. And his growths in them are decent. But the speed really means he will hit once and possibly get doubled in return, with nothing else to speak of as his def isn’t even that good. He’s as slow as Garcia, and that is saying something, considering Garcia matches his base speed at 14/0 and has +2 bonus from promoting to hero (granted, Dozla has +20 growth).

I guess that’s what he gets for looking like Gimli. He ends up being the comic relief… except here, it’s in a bad way.

4/10