FE9 Tier List

[Colonel M]

What does it contradict? Stefan's position is based on how he will do in the event that he is recruited, not on how often he is recruited.

The problem is it is very rare that Stefan will ever be recruited. How will a player, even after playing the game more than once, know how to recruit Stefan? You might get me on Zihark because you would eventually shuffle through characters and find out that Mordecai and Lethe recruit him, but how about Stefan? The player may never know how to recruit him unless they actually look at a guide. If he isn't recruited, then the problem lies that he will never do anything except never exist.

No, because you can't steal equipped items.

...Oh yeah, I forgot. Yeah, I retract that statement then.

Edited March 15, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Interceptor]

This tier list has a lot of problems, but mandating that XYZ character is recruited/deployed for the purpose of their comparison is not one of them. It's reasonable to stipulate, and has no negative impact on the overall goal.

[Narga_Rocks]

Either way that you look at it, you might as well slap recruitment penalties on this list because the player has no clue on getting some units. I didn't know that Zihark was recruited with Mordecai or Lethe until I looked on Serenes. Therefore, it is possible to miss out on recruiting a character, which limits its chances of being used over a unit such as, say, Mia who has a greater chance of existing because all we need to do is have Ike talk to her. The first line of thought when recruiting a unit is Ike, then perhaps a relationship (siblings, friends, etc). I had no clue that Zihark required a laguz at first, and thus it's very possible the character misses out on Zihark.

With limited resources, I only know so much about the game. The tutorial does not describe how to recruit either of these characters. Before you strawman with Haar, keep in mind that it's likely that the player will think of Jill, due to relations, to recruit him.

I must ask you: Why not go through the units list and see that Mordy and Lethe can talk to him? It should be standard practice when not using a guide to look and see which conversations are available, and then send that person out. This isn't stupid fe6 where the list doesn't tell you which conversations you can have and if you aren't using a guide you have to send all your units up to some enemy you think you can speak to in order to find out just who has the conversation. The game lets you know. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to actually figure it out by the 2nd or 3rd playthrough that the game gives you a lot of information. I figured it out the first playthrough, and since I played fe9 before games like fe4 and fe6, I find it incredibly stupid that the game doesn't tell you which units can have conversations in those games.

I disagree, seeing as the player probably hasn't used too much BEXP and might not have built good supports, so +2 Def/Res would be really nice. Also, the player would probably want to recruit Gatrie since he's a defensive powerhouse and only Astrid can do that.

I suppose. However, Gatrie is out, since before you talk to Astrid you don't know she can talk to him. I think some of your other characters can talk to Gatrie (but not recruit) so you might attempt to recruit Gatrie like that (and fail), and then maybe decide to recruit Astrid in case maybe she can recruit him. But still, it is possible you could be without a Knight Ward.

At the same time, a player could just steal the Knight Ward and never recruit Astrid and Gatrie.

RF pointed out one problem. The other is that she's an ally unit and thus you couldn't steal the KW even if it wasn't equipped.

The problem is it is very rare that Stefan will ever be recruited. How will a player, even after playing the game more than once, know how to recruit Stefan? You might get me on Zihark because you would eventually shuffle through characters and find out that Mordecai and Lethe recruit him, but how about Stefan? The player may never know how to recruit him unless they actually look at a guide. If he isn't recruited, then the problem lies that he will never do anything except never exist.

It's no real issue. When Stefan exists, there isn't a cost unless you think the player was going step by step combing the desert for 100 turns in the hopes of finding a unit. If we just go with dumb luck and assume that is the only way for Stefan to exist then there is no cost to his recruitment and when he exists he is rated without his difficult recruitment hindering him. Now, you should probably assume that the Vague Katti doesn't exist, and that only sometimes will the other items in the desert get picked up (far more frequently than the VK or Stefan, though, aside from the gem, since the other items could easily get stepped on in the process of fighting enemies). But as far as Stefan's placement is concerned, it doesn't affect him.

Although, you could argue that there is virtually zero probability of Stefan being found since the player is probably trying to kill the boss ASAP and will never go anywhere near Stefan, and certainly not with Lethe/Mordy. As a result, Stefan shouldn't exist at all on the list since he'll effectively never get recruited.

[Colonel M]

I must ask you: Why not go through the units list and see that Mordy and Lethe can talk to him? It should be standard practice when not using a guide to look and see which conversations are available, and then send that person out. This isn't stupid fe6 where the list doesn't tell you which conversations you can have and if you aren't using a guide you have to send all your units up to some enemy you think you can speak to in order to find out just who has the conversation. The game lets you know. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to actually figure it out by the 2nd or 3rd playthrough that the game gives you a lot of information. I figured it out the first playthrough, and since I played fe9 before games like fe4 and fe6, I find it incredibly stupid that the game doesn't tell you which units can have conversations in those games.

I am just stating: it is not obvious. Notice that Jill is an enemy and that the player doesn't completely know that she can be recruited until later on (assuming she survived). Of course another logical conclusion is to shuffle through units, but I guess if you're into trial and error it isn't a problem.

It's no real issue. When Stefan exists, there isn't a cost unless you think the player was going step by step combing the desert for 100 turns in the hopes of finding a unit. If we just go with dumb luck and assume that is the only way for Stefan to exist then there is no cost to his recruitment and when he exists he is rated without his difficult recruitment hindering him. Now, you should probably assume that the Vague Katti doesn't exist, and that only sometimes will the other items in the desert get picked up (far more frequently than the VK or Stefan, though, aside from the gem, since the other items could easily get stepped on in the process of fighting enemies). But as far as Stefan's placement is concerned, it doesn't affect him.

Although, you could argue that there is virtually zero probability of Stefan being found since the player is probably trying to kill the boss ASAP and will never go anywhere near Stefan, and certainly not with Lethe/Mordy. As a result, Stefan shouldn't exist at all on the list since he'll effectively never get recruited.

The thing is that the player has no idea that Stefan exists. And that, in order to find him, you would have to sit in the desert and look through every single spot, and how would you know to use a Laguz for it? I was going to address that it's also easy to miss since he's all the way over on the east side of the map, which was nowhere near the throne, but you sort of addressed that.

Either way, I was going by if you weren't going to remove Stefan on the list. Now, if you were to remove Stefan, then I guess that works too. You can assume the Vague Katti I guess, since it can be found and it doesn't require a specific unit to find it, but I would still assume that it is difficult to assume on someone, say, Zihark if it was within a comparison.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Vykan12]

The thing is that the player has no idea that Stefan exists. And that, in order to find him, you would have to sit in the desert and look through every single spot, and how would you know to use a Laguz for it? I was going to address that it's also easy to miss since he's all the way over on the east side of the map, which was nowhere near the throne, but you sort of addressed that.

The probability of recruiting Stefan is irrelevant. It could be 1 in 8 billion and yet we can still rank him based on how he performs in the event he is recruited. Cats already said this in different words, so I'm not sure what you're mis-comprehending.

[Anouleth]

The problem is it is very rare that Stefan will ever be recruited. How will a player, even after playing the game more than once, know how to recruit Stefan? You might get me on Zihark because you would eventually shuffle through characters and find out that Mordecai and Lethe recruit him, but how about Stefan? The player may never know how to recruit him unless they actually look at a guide. If he isn't recruited, then the problem lies that he will never do anything except never exist.

It doesn't matter. The idea of a tier list is to gauge how useful characters are when they are being used. The issue of how useful Stefan is when he isn't being used is irrelevant and not really very interesting to discuss.

EDIT: Vykan beat me to it...

Edited March 16, 2010 by Anouleth

[Colonel M]

The probability of recruiting Stefan is irrelevant. It could be 1 in 8 billion and yet we can still rank him based on how he performs in the event he is recruited. Cats already said this in different words, so I'm not sure what you're mis-comprehending.

What I am mis-comprehending, perse, is even assuming Stefan exists in the first place. A player is not going to know to put Mordecai or Lethe on the one spot in the desert with the Vague Katti in it. The probability might as well be "never".

It doesn't matter. The idea of a tier list is to gauge how useful characters are when they are being used. The issue of how useful Stefan is when he isn't being used is irrelevant and not really very interesting to discuss.

That may be true on another tier list that allows me to look on a website and see where I can find units and how. The problem is even comprehending that Stefan can ever exist if I can't. As you can see:

--Player has access only to the information on the game disc (and the manual, if anyone even knows what is actually contained in it), i.e. he does not have access to information sites such as Serenes, but he will not ignore what limited information he does have.

And neither mention how to recruit Stefan whatsoever. I can look at Haar and assume that if Ike can't get him, Jill can. I can look at Zihark and, though Ike can't recruit him, I can possibly shuffle through every teammate and figure out Mordy and Lethe. How do I assume Stefan if I don't even have the resource that tells me how to get him? I could get the Vague Katti and just assume that you only get the sword unless I accidentally hit it with Mordecai and Lethe, and even then it's still possible to miss it. Remember that the throne is toward the west and the Vague Katti | Stefan is clear on the other side.

And honestly, why does this rule even exist? What exactly is the purpose of it?

Edited March 16, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Vykan12]

Alright, well that's something entirely different. One of your posts said:

The problem is it is very rare that Stefan will ever be recruited

Very rare =/= never, please be more careful with your words next time.

Though, I can think of a scenario where Stefan is recruited accidentally. Mordy and/or Lethe are killing their fellow laguz to gain exp, and stumble upon Stefan's space.

[Colonel M]

Alright, well that's something entirely different. One of your posts said:

Very rare =/= never, please be more careful with your words next time.

Though, I can think of a scenario where Stefan is recruited accidentally. Mordy and/or Lethe are killing their fellow laguz to gain exp, and stumble upon Stefan's space.

Very rare might as well be never. I am talking about absolutely shitty luck that you are finding him. Also, if we are assuming that we are playing the game more than once, then if we, say, played it 3 times, we would know that we can get BEXP for keeping the laguz alive. Thus, we would be more careful to not kill them.

Alright, sorry about my wording though. I can see how it could throw off the stipulation.

EDIT: Well, I guess I can't really prove at the same time Stefan can never exist, so I guess I'll back off on it. I still disagree with it, but I guess at the same time I cannot do anything about it.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Interceptor]

All of this is irrelevant. Stipulating that compared characters are assumed to be deployed is not unlike saying that everyone uses iron weapons, always. It's just an artificial constraint to facilitate discussion, and since it doesn't run contrary to the goal, there's no problem.

[Anouleth]

Very rare might as well be never. I am talking about absolutely shitty luck that you are finding him. Also, if we are assuming that we are playing the game more than once, then if we, say, played it 3 times, we would know that we can get BEXP for keeping the laguz alive. Thus, we would be more careful to not kill them.

Alright, sorry about my wording though. I can see how it could throw off the stipulation.

Is it impossible that the player is a pacifist and simply doesn't want to hurt the cute widdle kitties? Or is Mr. Noob Player a sadist only interested in lining his own pocket with BEXP?

[Colonel M]

Is it impossible that the player is a pacifist and simply doesn't want to hurt the cute widdle kitties? Or is Mr. Noob Player a sadist only interested in lining his own pocket with BEXP?

It depends really. This is much like Chapter 10 where it is BEXP vs. CEXP. You could argue the CEXP is worth more here I guess since they are Laguz after all, but BEXP is also more flexible.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Tyranel M

[dondon151]

--This list assumes that there is room for player error (tactically bad decisions resulting in death, ideal supports less viable, not always using the perfect team or strategy, etc.)

Why is it us that should be debating under these conditions? I know a few people (like Vykan, Paperblade, Interceptor) who are considered to be tactically proficient, and some other people (Colonel_M, smash, etc.) who aren't exactly the best when it comes to strategic perfection, but I'm sure that everyone who is taken seriously in a tier list topic has some significant degree of tactical proficiency in the game. Then, why do we have to pretend like we're all stupid to an arbitrary degree? I am not going to make that assumption, because that's not how I play.

If you had the FE6 version of the list, I'd consider actions like dropping units across the gap in chapter 8x, dropping units over the mountain in chapter 15, and using like 6 rescue chains every turn on chapter 24, but you'd be allowed to handwave all of that strategic gold because apparently the average player does not have enough neurons firing in his brain to even conceive of it. That is complete bullshit. Stupidity is not an excuse to sandbag units, apart from the fact that it simply does not make any economical sense to not take the most profitable actions possible. Now, the average player might have a smaller scope of what the most profitable actions are, but that does not excuse the tier list from having a similar limited scope.

It seems to me that the tier list evolves as more information is made accessible to the people involved in making it. Item statistics, availability, enemy statistics, strategies, etc. are all made more available as time progresses. Adhering by the standard that this tier list sets is like willingly sending civilization back to the Stone Age. Or, if you'll permit me to make a TTGL reference, I hereby declare CATS to be the leader of the Fire Emblem Anti-Spirals, hindering tier list progress for fear of the destruction of the Fire Emblem universe.

The kind of person whose input should be taken seriously in this tier list is this guy. He should run this list. We can sit around pretending to be the kinds of players we really aren't, but we can't possibly come close to the real thing.

--Player has access only to the information on the game disc (and the manual, if anyone even knows what is actually contained in it), i.e. he does not have access to information sites such as Serenes, but he will not ignore what limited information he does have.

Pretty sure this has been brought up before, but this list is on an information site.

Edited March 16, 2010 by dondon151

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

(and the manual, if anyone even knows what is actually contained in it)

Does this tier list account for the deception brought about by the capped move Titania with exp over level 20?

[Narga_Rocks]

I am just stating: it is not obvious. Notice that Jill is an enemy and that the player doesn't completely know that she can be recruited until later on (assuming she survived). Of course another logical conclusion is to shuffle through units, but I guess if you're into trial and error it isn't a problem.

Jill can die. I'll give you that. There aren't any conversations in chapter 11, or if there are they don't recruit her. So you kill her in chapter 11. Goodbye Jill. Stefan, Jill, and Haar are the least likely units to be in play. Not in that order, of course, since Haar can't be in play if Jill isn't.

But there is no need to shuffle through your units. in the preparation screen, just go to your units list and scroll right. You'll get to the part that tells you which of your units can talk to other units. Including enemy units. I don't know why I need to repeat this. By the 3rd or 4th playthrough you should have found this, and even Scrub will have figured out to scroll through his entire list to see if any of his units he rarely uses can have a chat with the enemy. There is a tutorial that explains you a blue unit can chat with a red unit and it will suddenly decide to go blue. Scrub will know how to do this. Marcia is easy to recruit under this assumption because the guy knows to look at his list and find that Ike can chat with her in chapter (3 is it?).

The "logical conclusion" is not to shuffle through units. This isn't fe6. You don't need trial and error to recruit an enemy. The game tells you which units have a chat.

The thing is that the player has no idea that Stefan exists. And that, in order to find him, you would have to sit in the desert and look through every single spot, and how would you know to use a Laguz for it? I was going to address that it's also easy to miss since he's all the way over on the east side of the map, which was nowhere near the throne, but you sort of addressed that.

You could maybe make an argument that the opportunity cost (probably in turns) of strolling through the desert trying to find him should be incorporated to his tier list position, especially if people want to make the cost of recruiting Treck apply to his position. But it is something that is only done in one playthrough. Maybe two. One where you run through the desert with Sothe and Volke and pick up the Vague Katti. Another where you send Lethe/Mordy. Does anyone know if he mentions favouring laguz in his random convo with other units? If not, then the player has to randomly stick other units onto the Stefan square until Lethe/Mordy show up. This is hundreds of turns to find the square with Volke/Sothe, then multiple playthroughs until he uses a laguz to land on the square.

Every playthrough thereafter, there is no cost aside from sending Lethe to the square asap because Scrub now knows where Stefan is. Still, the cost of covering every square in the desert with a thief to find out where Stefan's square is located could be considered.

I still think he should drop out of the list entirely. There is one enemy in the top right and it will move towards Lethe/Mordy anyway, I think. The chance you'll stumble on that square while fighting is effectively zero. It is simply too far out of the way. If this was RD I'd say maybe you could convince me that one time Micaiah will be going after those warriors in the southeast and stumble on Stefan. It's not out of the realm of possibility. Randomly getting Stefan in fe9 is.

Either way, I was going by if you weren't going to remove Stefan on the list. Now, if you were to remove Stefan, then I guess that works too. You can assume the Vague Katti I guess, since it can be found and it doesn't require a specific unit to find it, but I would still assume that it is difficult to assume on someone, say, Zihark if it was within a comparison.

There is still no way I'm assuming the Vague Katti would exist. So now it doesn't have to be Lethe/Mordy? Big deal. You aren't going to stand there anyway unless Scrub sends units to every inch of the desert in his first or second playthrough, but that isn't efficient.

So, does Scrub play inefficiently in previous playthroughs in order to find out where everything in the desert is located? In order for Stefan to ever be recruited, I would think that the player is also getting all the stuff in the desert chapter as well.

@dondon: Yeah, there are a few people on SF and Gamefaqs that probably should be running this list, considering they are the ones that seem to play like this list is going at.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Honestly, I think this tier list is a terrible idea. Simply because tier lists are mainly made for maximum efficiency. As I've said, there's no such thing as "normal"/"retarded" efficiency when it comes to tier list debating. All these assumptions just ruin the entire point of a tier list.

[Narga_Rocks]

Honestly, I think this tier list is a terrible idea. Simply because tier lists are mainly made for maximum efficiency. As I've said, there's no such thing as "normal"/"retarded" efficiency when it comes to tier list debating. All these assumptions just ruin the entire point of a tier list.

As much as I like the more standard tier list setups, there is nothing wrong with creating tier lists for different rules.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

As much as I like the more standard tier list setups, there is nothing wrong with creating tier lists for different rules.

Sure, for the most part there's nothing wrong with making tier lists with different standards but really, this tier list is assuming the player is either mentally retarded, brand new, or just a VERY casual FE player that could give a damn about efficiency.

[Florete]

By the 3rd or 4th playthrough you should have found this, and even Scrub will have figured out to scroll through his entire list to see if any of his units he rarely uses can have a chat with the enemy.

I was already doing that on every map on my first run of this game. If an enemy had a name and a face and wasn't a boss, I was checking to see who could recruit them. I even restarted Ch 11 because I thought I had just left out the person who recruits Jill.

[Colonel M]

I already caved in Narga. You're free from my idiocy.

[Narga_Rocks]

I already caved in Narga. You're free from my idiocy.

If it helps I support your kill Jill notion. I just reject your "can't recruit Zihark" notion.

I was already doing that on every map on my first run of this game. If an enemy had a name and a face and wasn't a boss, I was checking to see who could recruit them. I even restarted Ch 11 because I thought I had just left out the person who recruits Jill.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I found it first time through. The only convo screw-up I made was Marcia in my first playthrough. I'm not sure if I knew Ike had a convo with her and just forgot when I reached her of if I didn't know at all. After that, though, if I had a unit that could chat and I didn't normally use it, I saw in the unit list that it could chat with an enemy so I deployed it.

[Junkhead]

That's quite the reasoning...does this apply to most tier lists? You know, since Jill isn't exactly very good in her start and the tier player will no know how decently her Spd will grow out.

[Narga_Rocks]

That's quite the reasoning...does this apply to most tier lists? You know, since Jill isn't exactly very good in her start and the tier player will no know how decently her Spd will grow out.

Why would it apply to other tier lists? We look on SF or other sites for recruitment and growths, and you have a lot of bexp to get her up there a bit after chapter 12 is over. It's only this list where you might not know how to recruit her and might not think it is worth loading her with bexp.

Besides, even here people should know how useful fliers are and thus it is worth giving extra bexp to units like Marcia and Jill even if you are afraid their growths might be just decent instead of great.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Junkhead]

Sorry...for some reason, I was looking at another page, I forgot to quote Interceptor.

[Momo]

All prepromotes down, lower leveled units up. Why? Because players see these strong guys (Titania, Stefan, Tanith, etc) and think they're gonna be awful, so they don't use them to their full potential. The reverse happens to people like Astrid and Sothe, they get babied to the point where they have to be useful.