Kaoz Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 So, we just had a debate on IP whether the town leader system is the best system for the town to use in general: AnoulethI see why people don't like Follow the Leader Kiku-Ichimonji But this does NOT mean that you will allow the leader to govern your life Anouleth but really Kaoz yeah but Life also overreacted there Anouleth it is the best way to play OC Kiku-Ichimonji I hate Follow the Leader Kiku-Ichimonji Best way for who? Anouleth best way for town Paperblade Winners Kaoz I agree with Anouleth, its usually the optimal system Anouleth worst way for mafia :P Kay Paperblade, I know what happened, I was in the game. eclipse So was I. Kiku-Ichimonji Are you also including the Town Leader who has a huge responsibility on his back? Paperblade ;/ Anouleth generally, people aren't forced to be town leader Kiku-Ichimonji All the Mafia needs to do is convince ONE guy Kay But seriously, if someone had been insulting me like that, I probably wouldn't have done what they wanted me to, either. Paperblade True Anouleth and I know that I wouldn't mind being town leader Kaoz one guy who has tons of info Kiku-Ichimonji And the Townies don't get to decide which brain is best for leading Anouleth what do you mean, 'convince' Kiku-Ichimonji Simple Anouleth uh, the Cop decides Anouleth he can choose who to clear on Night 1 Kay Contrariness seems like a completely normal reaction to Life's planet-sized ego. eclipse I kinda wish I could keep this entire conversation. Anouleth then they set themselves up as leader Kiku-Ichimonji If the Leader believes that X is Town, then X will not be lynched or Vigged Anouleth right Kaoz yeah, usually the cop should investigate someone n1, when that guy's clear, the cop claims to him, if not the cop claims in the thread Paperblade what's stopping you, clips Anouleth and? eclipse First, scrolls too fast. Kiku-Ichimonji Cop investigation is not foolproof Paperblade see: safeguards eclipse Second, not sure if you guys want to see yourselves talking about this in my postgame. Paperblade godfathers Anouleth Proto: WIFOM Paperblade idc Kiku-Ichimonji Godfather is one common example Kaoz the probability of those cases are relatively small Paperblade ugh aquilaeeeeeee ;_; Kiku-Ichimonji These days, there are more and more roles that can really cause problems Kiku-Ichimonji Drivers Kiku-Ichimonji Dazzlers Kiku-Ichimonji Lightning Rod Kevin dazzlers? Kiku-Ichimonji Naive Cop Kay Nexus. 10:50 AM Kiku-Ichimonji Insane Cop Sakusa has entered the room Kiku-Ichimonji I <3 Nexi eclipse SAKUSA~! Kiku-Ichimonji Hi Sakusa Anouleth in addition, I would much rather have the choice of 'is he mafia or not' be in the hands of the village leader (who has lots of information) than the townies, who won't agree with each other and are essentially uninformed Kaoz first of all, a godfather has to be in the game, then the cop has to hit that person n1, which is a 7% chance or something like that depending on the number of players, safeguard hitting the same person as cop is even more unlikely Paperblade Remind me what Nexus does again Paperblade I always forget Kay Randomly redirects roles targeting it, IIRC. eclipse Huh? Paperblade if I were a mafia safeguard and someone went "Hey guys Cop inspect me I'll lead town" Kiku-Ichimonji Sometimes, kills are excluded Paperblade I would safeguard the fuck out of that person Anouleth which is why Anouleth people shouldn't say that eclipse I thought Nexus had to do with safeguarding? Kaoz exactly Paperblade obv Anouleth the Cop decides who to inspect Kiku-Ichimonji There are too many possibilities Kiku-Ichimonji Too many ways it could fail Paperblade There are 2 ways for mafia to win OC, imo Anouleth on his own, to reduce the chance of mafia interference Paperblade 1. Mole the village Kaoz and if it's an insane cop, he'll know a day later and can plan according to that Paperblade 2. Team up with any other non-town sided killing roles (Wolf or other mafs) and reduce the town to rubble before turning on each other Kiku-Ichimonji And even when you have an absolutely 100% confirmed townie, Mafia games started introducing cults Paperblade and recruiters Kiku-Ichimonji What if it's a Naive Cop? Kaoz I hate recruiters >_>;; Kiku-Ichimonji Or an Insane Cop that got another innocent result Kaoz naive cop is rarely used afaik, and in that case, it'd be a problem I admit Furetchen has entered the room Kaoz that's even more unlikely Kiku-Ichimonji Also, Anouleth, you're suggesting that the Cop should clear the leader Furetchen This fanfic Furetchen is hilarious Kiku-Ichimonji which implies that the Cop should expose himself Day 2 Paperblade Naive/Paranoid cops honestly feel like a huge troll Paperblade that I wouldn't include even in a troll-y mafia game Anouleth only if he investigates and finds scum Furetchen HILARIOUS I say Kiku-Ichimonji I think they were created for DETHY Paperblade unless the players knew beforehand there would be X number of them Kaoz I'm kinda sad that we are discussing this in IP and not an actual thread eclipse FURET!!! Anouleth if he investigates and finds that the guy is innocent eclipse Now, about that fic. .. Kiku-Ichimonji What if the Cop clears person X and finds out that he's Town Furetchen To have this much...lack of talent Kiku-Ichimonji How would the rest of the Town know that X is "clear" Anouleth he sends him his own role PM and proves that he's cop Paperblade DETHY? Furetchen you need SERIOUS anti-skills Kiku-Ichimonji Sends who the role PM? Kaoz then that person can say that the cop investigated him eclipse Did you want to start or should I?> Paperblade also I'm going to sleep in 5 minutes Kaoz the one who was investigated Kiku-Ichimonji Just the leader? Furetchen I've already started Furetchen so it can't hurt to have two of us~ Kiku-Ichimonji Yeah, and everyone should believe him automatically Paperblade Anyone can say the cop investigated them eclipse Anyway, I'd tell you to take it to the thread, but the majority of you are dead. . .so I can't. . .GRRRR! Anouleth okay, Proto, let's say Life is the leader and Spoon is the cop Kiku-Ichimonji ^ 10:55 AM Rothene has left the room eclipse Okay, I'll continue where you left off. Anouleth Spoon investigates Life and gets the Role PM Kiku-Ichimonji You don't even need two Mafia members to pull it off Furetchen I've done all he's done so far. Paperblade aye Anouleth Spoon sends the role PM to Life Furetchen We should take this to PMs given how often IPChat fails on me. Anouleth this proves that Spoon is a cop Anouleth Life declares himself town leader eclipse Okay. I'll shoot you one when I'm done. Kiku-Ichimonji Proves to LIFE ONLY Anouleth with the backing of the cop Kay DETHY is insane cop, paranoid cop, naive cop, normal cop, and one mafia. Furetchen <3 Kiku-Ichimonji Only Life knows that Spoon is a Cop Paperblade ah Kaoz so? Kiku-Ichimonji And only Spoon knows that Life is confirmed town Paperblade it could also mean Spoon is a mafia rolechecker Kiku-Ichimonji Why should the rest of the Town believe what Life claimns Kiku-Ichimonji That too Anouleth yes, Paperblade Anouleth or Life could be godfather Kaoz because Spoon would say so if he wasn't cleared Anouleth because, Proto Anouleth if Life lies Paperblade my problem is Paperblade none of this is really logical, IMO Paperblade it's all "What if" Anouleth then Spoon can publicly roleclaim and get him lynched Kiku-Ichimonji Spoon saying anything = Cop exposure on Day 2 Anouleth and then Spoon becomes village leader Kaoz the probabilities of things that could go wrong it rather low Anouleth PAperblade, it's called WIFOM Kiku-Ichimonji Rather low? Anouleth I think Kay Oh hey, eclipse. Do you mind if I bother you about something completely off-topic? Paperblade I know Kiku-Ichimonji I've played billions of Mafia games and I see Town Leadership being screwed quite a lot Anouleth the thing is eclipse Sure. Anouleth Proto, there have been plenty of good town leader scenarios Anouleth that have only been obstructed by Hitmen Furetchen has left the room Kaoz Proto, send me a pm with all the things that could go wrong and I'll tell you why they are unlikely to happen Paperblade But like I said Kay I've been trying to find someone who will tell me how valuable some Yu-Gi-Oh cards are, but they've all tried to rip me off. Kiku-Ichimonji Only? Kiku-Ichimonji ONLY??? Kiku-Ichimonji Are you freaking serious? Kay I'll PM you. Paperblade YGO cards are insanely expensive Anouleth which I think is a good counter to village leader eclipse Okay, thanks. Kiku-Ichimonji You want me to list all possibilities? eclipse I'll see what I can figure out. Kiku-Ichimonji That would take a whole lot of time Anouleth Proto, I'm just talking about in my experience Kiku-Ichimonji But sure thing, Kaoz, since I have nothing better to do Kiku-Ichimonji As am I Kaoz actually, if no one here minds, I'll make a thread about this and we can discuss it there Anouleth in addition, Proto, you can generate a huge list of problems with ANY course of action in mafia Paperblade Go for it. Kiku-Ichimonji Two and a half years experience eclipse Yeah, please do! Kiku-Ichimonji OC itself is not a problem Please continue the discussion here. Why is town leader a good/bad system? What risks are involved etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 You get my thoughts after postgame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Ordinarily, in an OC game, it is impossible to share any information. There is always the risk that you will share it with mafia. But if you do not share information, then the town is at a deep disadvantage because they are essentially stabbing, copping, doctoring, hooking, and driving in the dark. Village leader scenarios reduce this problem by putting everyone into contact with a clear person, allowing people to share information and come to better decisions with reduced risk. Risks are involved in all things in mafia. It is never possible to know for 'sure' if anyone is town or scum. It is simply the nature of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriemhild Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 That depends heavily on what you mean by Town Leader. Exactly how would the system work? If, for instance, somebody somehow becomes 100% confirmed as Townie through some events in the game, then it would definitely be a very good idea to talk to him, and even reveal your role and whatnot and hear his opinions on who you should target next. And consequently, since this person would naturally have a lot of info, it would be stupid to ignore him when he declares that a certain someone should be lynched for being too scummy. This would kinda be like a Town Leader and of course, the Mafia would obviously try to talk to him as well (with fakeclaims) to appear just like anybody else. Now, on the other hand, if you're suggesting a specific system that all Townies should follow, then I'm against it. A Cop investigating someone to "clear" them as Town? A Cop's result is not foolproof and there are billions of ways for the Cop to get an incorrect result. Not to mention, it's the beginning of the game, so it's not like the Cop has a whole lot of results to be sure of the reliability. What happens next? Cop sends all the info to the Leader and the Leader claims to the Town that he has been "cleared". And the Town is supposed to believe him? Based on what? Apparently, it would be entirely dependent on the silence of the Cop. If the Cop does NOT expose himself and object to this claim, because he actually investigated someone else, then the Leader becomes cleared? It's one thing to choose a Town Leader based on a Cop's public claim, but I find it extremely ridiculous to choose the Town Leader based on the Cop's silence. Even if I were a Cop and got one GUILTY result on D1, I probably wouldn't expose myself until I had more stuff to present (although, if the Townies are actually stupid enough to actually spill all their secrets to that person if I don't interfere, then I won't have much choice). And over here, there are even more possibilities of something going wrong. Multiple investigative roles would ruin it, and they are very likely to exist in games that are large enough for the Mod to feel sorry for the Town and give them more investigative roles. Furthermore, a sane Cop might not even exist, with investigative roles being covered by other stuff like Trackers, Watchers, Thieves, etc. And what if a Cop DOES expose himself? If the "leader" was lying, yay, we get one Mafia member and we will indeed be at a nice advantage, but now we exposed the Cop. Which, btw, would likely be our ONLY Cop, because that's essential for this system to work effectively, as stated in the previous paragraph. Yeah, this is not a situation I would want to be in, even if it does mean we'll remain at an advantage for as long as the Cop is alive. Doctor hogging is a horrible idea since the Mafia would be free to kill anyone else. This would turn into a mindgame between the Doc and the Mafia, and with no information to work with, it's as good as tossing a coin to pick your targets. Oh, yeah, what if the leader was actually a Townie? Like, if someone else DID clear him? Is that someone else supposed to expose himself too, just to clear the Leader? Or would they lynch the leader, and then lynch the Cop after they find out that the leader was telling the truth? Heck, what if a Mafia claims that he's a Cop and that the leader is lying? I'm sure you must have seen THAT happen before. And in the end, we don't even get a perfect system of finding the scum. Even assuming that the entire selection of the Town Leader was actually done perfectly in the Town's favor with none of the billions of risks actually occurring, the whole "follow the leader" itself will not guarantee leading the Town to victory. I'll get more into that later on, if I actually have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlet Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Follow the leader is risky if it isn't known what roles there are in the game. The town leader could always happen to be recruited by a yakuza or cult, and suddenly, all information the town ever gathered is in the hands of an anti-town faction. There's also the obvious risks like godfathers, non-sane cops, stalkers, lawyers, framers, what have you. The worst thing the town can do is openly announce whom they want to be town leader, except possibly to purposely screw with the mafia by doing that and then picking someone else anyway - if the mafia doesn't know who's going to be town leader, they at least can't interfere with lawyers or framers. I also feel that so far, the townspeople have been sheeping way too much when there was a town leader. Just because the town leader has a lot of information doesn't mean that the other townspeople should stop thinking altogether, or else the town leader could as well be playing the game alone. That said, some games without outside contact or with a known role distribution would be quite a refreshing change after all these follow the leader games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Now, on the other hand, if you're suggesting a specific system that all Townies should follow, then I'm against it. A Cop investigating someone to "clear" them as Town? A Cop's result is not foolproof and there are billions of ways for the Cop to get an incorrect result. Not to mention, it's the beginning of the game, so it's not like the Cop has a whole lot of results to be sure of the reliability. It's true that you can't guarantee that he's not mafia. But the same applies for any person in the game. Applying that same logic, you should never share any information with anyone, which rather defeats the purpose of OC in the first place. What happens next? Cop sends all the info to the Leader and the Leader claims to the Town that he has been "cleared". And the Town is supposed to believe him? Based on what? Apparently, it would be entirely dependent on the silence of the Cop. If the Cop does NOT expose himself and object to this claim, because he actually investigated someone else, then the Leader becomes cleared? It's one thing to choose a Town Leader based on a Cop's public claim, but I find it extremely ridiculous to choose the Town Leader based on the Cop's silence. Even if I were a Cop and got one GUILTY result on D1, I probably wouldn't expose myself until I had more stuff to present (although, if the Townies are actually stupid enough to actually spill all their secrets to that person if I don't interfere, then I won't have much choice). And over here, there are even more possibilities of something going wrong. Multiple investigative roles would ruin it, and they are very likely to exist in games that are large enough for the Mod to feel sorry for the Town and give them more investigative roles. Furthermore, a sane Cop might not even exist, with investigative roles being covered by other stuff like Trackers, Watchers, Thieves, etc. Generally, games here aren't large enough to warrant multiple cops, and there usually is a sane cop. Obviously, it becomes more difficult to clear people when you consider other roles. However, as I said above, it is never possible to 100% clear anyone because there is always the possibility that there exists some role that will screw you over, and if you think you should never share information with anyone on the basis that they 'might' be mafia... then you probably shouldn't be playing OC games. And what if a Cop DOES expose himself? If the "leader" was lying, yay, we get one Mafia member and we will indeed be at a nice advantage, but now we exposed the Cop. Which, btw, would likely be our ONLY Cop, because that's essential for this system to work effectively, as stated in the previous paragraph. Yeah, this is not a situation I would want to be in, even if it does mean we'll remain at an advantage for as long as the Cop is alive. Doctor hogging is a horrible idea since the Mafia would be free to kill anyone else. Why is doctor hogging a horrible idea? I would much rather have an alive cop, leading the village, than a 1/20 lottery of stopping some vanilla dying. This would turn into a mindgame between the Doc and the Mafia, and with no information to work with, it's as good as tossing a coin to pick your targets. And plus, what is your solution to this? If there is no town leader and nobody can share information, what does the doctor do then? Because it seems to me that with no Town Leader, the doctor has no choice but to pick targets at random. Oh, yeah, what if the leader was actually a Townie? Like, if someone else DID clear him? Is that someone else supposed to expose himself too, just to clear the Leader? Or would they lynch the leader, and then lynch the Cop after they find out that the leader was telling the truth? Why on earth would they do that? The leader claims that the cop checked him out and he's clear. No Cops come forward to say otherwise. Why would the town then lynch the leader? How could the town then lynch the cop when he hasn't claimed? Heck, what if a Mafia claims that he's a Cop and that the leader is lying? I'm sure you must have seen THAT happen before. Then the leader gets lynched and then the mafia that fakeclaimed gets lynched. And in the end, we don't even get a perfect system of finding the scum. Even assuming that the entire selection of the Town Leader was actually done perfectly in the Town's favor with none of the billions of risks actually occurring, the whole "follow the leader" itself will not guarantee leading the Town to victory. I'll get more into that later on, if I actually have to. Nothing guarantees the victory of the town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 That depends heavily on what you mean by Town Leader. Exactly how would the system work? If, for instance, somebody somehow becomes 100% confirmed as Townie through some events in the game, then it would definitely be a very good idea to talk to him, and even reveal your role and whatnot and hear his opinions on who you should target next. And consequently, since this person would naturally have a lot of info, it would be stupid to ignore him when he declares that a certain someone should be lynched for being too scummy. This would kinda be like a Town Leader and of course, the Mafia would obviously try to talk to him as well (with fakeclaims) to appear just like anybody else. You will almost never get a 100% confirmed townie in early game, so you try to get one as close to 100% as possible. Now, on the other hand, if you're suggesting a specific system that all Townies should follow, then I'm against it. A Cop investigating someone to "clear" them as Town? A Cop's result is not foolproof and there are billions of ways for the Cop to get an incorrect result. Not to mention, it's the beginning of the game, so it's not like the Cop has a whole lot of results to be sure of the reliability. Obviously his results are not foolproof, but more often than not, they are correct and if you're waiting for some 100% confirmation, it'll probably take too long. Also, if you look at those "billions of ways", you'll see that either the cop has to be targeted by some redirecting role, he and the influencing role have to hit the same target or he has to hit a godfather. With almost 20 players as possible targets at the beginning of the game, all of these scenarios are not all that likely to happen. Regarding sanity, if he's insane he should be able to know that a day later, and naive/paranoid aren't used very often around here. What happens next? Cop sends all the info to the Leader and the Leader claims to the Town that he has been "cleared". And the Town is supposed to believe him? Based on what? Apparently, it would be entirely dependent on the silence of the Cop. If the Cop does NOT expose himself and object to this claim, because he actually investigated someone else, then the Leader becomes cleared? In that case, two people would claim that they got investigated. You can clear one of them (the one you investigated) and the other one is most likely mafia (another townie wouldn't have a reason to claim he was investigated if he wasn't). It's one thing to choose a Town Leader based on a Cop's public claim, but I find it extremely ridiculous to choose the Town Leader based on the Cop's silence. Even if I were a Cop and got one GUILTY result on D1, I probably wouldn't expose myself until I had more stuff to present (although, if the Townies are actually stupid enough to actually spill all their secrets to that person if I don't interfere, then I won't have much choice). And over here, there are even more possibilities of something going wrong. Multiple investigative roles would ruin it, and they are very likely to exist in games that are large enough for the Mod to feel sorry for the Town and give them more investigative roles. Furthermore, a sane Cop might not even exist, with investigative roles being covered by other stuff like Trackers, Watchers, Thieves, etc. I dunno, I find it highly unlikely that the town doesn't have a full inspector these days. Other investigative roles are (obviously) weaker, so only the one that got his role pm through the full inspector should claim (though I guess multiple investigative roles could ruin it a bit...). I already covered sanity. And what if a Cop DOES expose himself? If the "leader" was lying, yay, we get one Mafia member and we will indeed be at a nice advantage, but now we exposed the Cop. Which, btw, would likely be our ONLY Cop, because that's essential for this system to work effectively, as stated in the previous paragraph. Yeah, this is not a situation I would want to be in, even if it does mean we'll remain at an advantage for as long as the Cop is alive. Doctor hogging is a horrible idea since the Mafia would be free to kill anyone else. This would turn into a mindgame between the Doc and the Mafia, and with no information to work with, it's as good as tossing a coin to pick your targets. I wouldn't say that Doctor hogging is a terrible idea, given that it's one of the town's most power and as village leader he also has the most information. True, the mafia can kill anyone else, but given the presented scenario, I don't think it's as bad as you're saying. Oh, yeah, what if the leader was actually a Townie? Like, if someone else DID clear him? Is that someone else supposed to expose himself too, just to clear the Leader? Or would they lynch the leader, and then lynch the Cop after they find out that the leader was telling the truth? Heck, what if a Mafia claims that he's a Cop and that the leader is lying? I'm sure you must have seen THAT happen before. As stated before, there are things that can go wrong with the system, but for example you could say that a Cop that got one person wrong might be insane, but 2 persons or more? That person is highly likely to be Mafia then. And in the end, we don't even get a perfect system of finding the scum. Even assuming that the entire selection of the Town Leader was actually done perfectly in the Town's favor with none of the billions of risks actually occurring, the whole "follow the leader" itself will not guarantee leading the Town to victory. I'll get more into that later on, if I actually have to. While that's true, as Anouleth pointed out, it's more likely to lead them to victory than random lynches based on incomplete informations. You even said so yourself at the beginning of your post. Follow the leader is risky if it isn't known what roles there are in the game. The town leader could always happen to be recruited by a yakuza or cult, and suddenly, all information the town ever gathered is in the hands of an anti-town faction. There's also the obvious risks like godfathers, non-sane cops, stalkers, lawyers, framers, what have you. The worst thing the town can do is openly announce whom they want to be town leader, except possibly to purposely screw with the mafia by doing that and then picking someone else anyway - if the mafia doesn't know who's going to be town leader, they at least can't interfere with lawyers or framers. I also feel that so far, the townspeople have been sheeping way too much when there was a town leader. Just because the town leader has a lot of information doesn't mean that the other townspeople should stop thinking altogether, or else the town leader could as well be playing the game alone. That said, some games without outside contact or with a known role distribution would be quite a refreshing change after all these follow the leader games. I agree that there are risks, but wouldn't you say the benefits outweigh those risks? Also agreeing with what you said about sheeping. Choral Mafia and Itemafia will be starting relatively soon I guess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriemhild Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 It's true that you can't guarantee that he's not mafia. But the same applies for any person in the game. Applying that same logic, you should never share any information with anyone, which rather defeats the purpose of OC in the first place. Why shouldn't you never share any information? You can share your opinions and stuff with people, without giving them too many details. You don't even have to claim any role at all. And you shouldn't just talk to one person, but you could talk to different people and share whatever you want. If you feel that it's logically better to never share any info with anyone who isn't a confirmed town, then that's your own choice. OC only means that townies can communicate privately each other, so players can share info between each other if they want. You don't have to completely trust someone to feel comfortable talking to them. Generally, games here aren't large enough to warrant multiple cops, and there usually is a sane cop. Obviously, it becomes more difficult to clear people when you consider other roles. However, as I said above, it is never possible to 100% clear anyone because there is always the possibility that there exists some role that will screw you over, and if you think you should never share information with anyone on the basis that they 'might' be mafia... then you probably shouldn't be playing OC games. Did you just contradict yourself in that last part? You're right, you shouldn't be utilizing OC if you're so paranoid about sharing the slightest piece of information with someone who isn't 100% confirmed as Town. Sharing a little information with some random person is totally different from forcing each and every single player to roleclaim to a specific person, and then having that one person choose everybody's Night targets and control the lynches, while anyone that refuses becomes extremely suspicious. Now THAT is going way too far imo. As for your Cop thing, yeah, there usually is a sane Cop. But what exactly is a Cop btw? One that checks flavors, or just reads their alignment, or what? Unless it's a really small game, it's not unlikely to see more than one investigative role. Also, the frequency of sane Cops are kinda falling after the mods get these really cool ideas for new investigative roles. Why is doctor hogging a horrible idea? I would much rather have an alive cop, leading the village, than a 1/20 lottery of stopping some vanilla dying. What are the odds that a Doctor's protection will coincide with the Mafia's kill? Unless there's a mindgame going on, the odds are very low anyways. Now, if you hog the Doctor to protect the Cop anyway, then the Mafia will be free to kill anyone else, turning that low probability into zero. Which makes the Doctor absolutely worthless, aside from simply redirecting the Mafia's kills to turn away from the Cop. If that's the reasoning you would follow as a Town Leader, then you are not utilizing the Doctor's ability to actually SAVE people from death. Now, of course, if you know the Mafia wouldn't attempt to shoot the Cop while the Doctor's alive, then why not let the Doctor protect someone else? Of course, the Mafia would consider that too, and so they could just surprise you and shoot the Cop. Which is why, in the end, it all turns into a mindgame. You can guarantee your Cop's protection (assuming there are no Hitmen and the Mafia Roleblocker does not know who the Doctor is) and essentially waste the Doctor's ability, which can cause a VERY huge impact on the few times it's successful btw, or you can play the mindgame with the Mafia, which is your lottery. Personally, I hate both of those options and would rather keep the Cop's identity a secret until he gathers enough juicy info to fulfill his purpose. i.e. no D2 exposure. And plus, what is your solution to this? If there is no town leader and nobody can share information, what does the doctor do then? Because it seems to me that with no Town Leader, the doctor has no choice but to pick targets at random. I never said people shouldn't share any information. Sharing info =/= Electing a Town Leader. Also, whether it's an OC game or not, the first few phases rarely actually give players much relevant information. By the time the game gets serious, there's usually plenty of stuff going on, which make it easier to pick night targets. Why on earth would they do that? The leader claims that the cop checked him out and he's clear. No Cops come forward to say otherwise. Why would the town then lynch the leader? How could the town then lynch the cop when he hasn't claimed? You misunderstood me. I was going under the assumption that the leader would be elected based on the Cop's silence, and that the Cop would therefore object to this because of that. Like, investigative role Y did NOT investigate possible leader X, but X claims that he was investigated and cleared. Should Y expose himself and claim that X is lying? Because it's possible that a 2nd investigative role Z really did investigate X. My point is, I don't think a Cop should ever expose himself solely to announce an Innocent result. By that logic, the Cop shouldn't publicly declare that the leader is cleared. If that's the case, the people wouldn't really know whether the leader is cleared or not. Unless they take the Cop's SILENCE as evidence, which is what leads to those problems. Then the leader gets lynched and then the mafia that fakeclaimed gets lynched. In all my past experiences of such situations, I recall the Mafia winning most of the time. The Mafia wouldn't fakeclaim that unless the leader actually has a potentially powerful role, so that is already a big loss for the Town. Sure, they lose one Mafia member (Vanilla probably), and the Town doesn't have a clue what to do next. Nothing guarantees the victory of the town. Indeed, which is why electing a leader through that very specific system is a very bad idea, due to the numerous ways it can be screwed up. I don't see the benefits outweighing the risks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Why shouldn't you never share any information? You can share your opinions and stuff with people, without giving them too many details. You don't even have to claim any role at all. And you shouldn't just talk to one person, but you could talk to different people and share whatever you want. If you feel that it's logically better to never share any info with anyone who isn't a confirmed town, then that's your own choice. OC only means that townies can communicate privately each other, so players can share info between each other if they want. You don't have to completely trust someone to feel comfortable talking to them. But according to you, you shouldn't share information even when there is evidence to show that the person is clear because there are many situations where that might be false. Lawyer, Godfather, Driver, etc. Are you suggesting that the advantage of OC is that it leaves room for the town to make stupid plays? Did you just contradict yourself in that last part? You're right, you shouldn't be utilizing OC if you're so paranoid about sharing the slightest piece of information with someone who isn't 100% confirmed as Town. Sharing a little information with some random person is totally different from forcing each and every single player to roleclaim to a specific person, and then having that one person choose everybody's Night targets and control the lynches, while anyone that refuses becomes extremely suspicious. Now THAT is going way too far imo. If you don't want to share information with someone even when there is evidence that they're clear, then when will you share information? Throw darts at a board and share information 'at random'? As for your Cop thing, yeah, there usually is a sane Cop. But what exactly is a Cop btw? One that checks flavors, or just reads their alignment, or what? Unless it's a really small game, it's not unlikely to see more than one investigative role. Also, the frequency of sane Cops are kinda falling after the mods get these really cool ideas for new investigative roles. If the town is thrown an Insane cop, then it's inevitable that he will cause a mislynch and probably die himself as a result. Unless all the cop does is check people and wait for one of them to die and prove his sanity/insanity, there is no real response to the possibility of insanity, and it's not until day 4 or 5 that he has a good chance of determining his sanity/insanity, by which point the chance of him being killed without being of any use to the town at all is like 40-50%. What are the odds that a Doctor's protection will coincide with the Mafia's kill? Unless there's a mindgame going on, the odds are very low anyways. Now, if you hog the Doctor to protect the Cop anyway, then the Mafia will be free to kill anyone else, turning that low probability into zero. Which makes the Doctor absolutely worthless, aside from simply redirecting the Mafia's kills to turn away from the Cop. If that's the reasoning you would follow as a Town Leader, then you are not utilizing the Doctor's ability to actually SAVE people from death. That's assuming that the probability of the Mafia targeting the Cop is zero. In addition, even redirecting kills away from the Cop is a boon. It is much better to ensure that the Cop never dies, even if it comes at the cost of a vanilla's life. Now, of course, if you know the Mafia wouldn't attempt to shoot the Cop while the Doctor's alive, then why not let the Doctor protect someone else? Of course, the Mafia would consider that too, and so they could just surprise you and shoot the Cop. Which is why, in the end, it all turns into a mindgame. You can guarantee your Cop's protection (assuming there are no Hitmen and the Mafia Roleblocker does not know who the Doctor is) and essentially waste the Doctor's ability, which can cause a VERY huge impact on the few times it's successful btw, or you can play the mindgame with the Mafia, which is your lottery. Oh, well, in that case, nobody with an important role should ever publicly claim under any circumstances ever, because then the Doctor might not be picking targets at random, and we couldn't have the Doctor use his brain to determine the best possible course of action, oh no. He should just sit in a corner and flip coins to determine who to pick, because obviously the mafia are going to expect him to use logic and common sense to pick his targets rather than chance. I never said people shouldn't share any information. Sharing info =/= Electing a Town Leader. So it's fine to share information with random players who haven't been cleared and don't have a lot of information to give in return, but sharing information with a Town Leader who has been cleared is unacceptable? You misunderstood me. I was going under the assumption that the leader would be elected based on the Cop's silence, and that the Cop would therefore object to this because of that. Like, investigative role Y did NOT investigate possible leader X, but X claims that he was investigated and cleared. Should Y expose himself and claim that X is lying? Because it's possible that a 2nd investigative role Z really did investigate X. My point is, I don't think a Cop should ever expose himself solely to announce an Innocent result. By that logic, the Cop shouldn't publicly declare that the leader is cleared. If that's the case, the people wouldn't really know whether the leader is cleared or not. Unless they take the Cop's SILENCE as evidence, which is what leads to those problems. What leads to which problems? Obviously it's an issue in a game with no cop, or multiple cops. But quite frankly, the number of possible permutations that a game of mafia can take depending on which roles exist is staggering. I think it's natural to assume that most games have 1 cop and 1 doctor. In all my past experiences of such situations, I recall the Mafia winning most of the time. The Mafia wouldn't fakeclaim that unless the leader actually has a potentially powerful role, so that is already a big loss for the Town. Sure, they lose one Mafia member (Vanilla probably), and the Town doesn't have a clue what to do next. Well, I think it's reasonable that if the Cop investigates on N1 and finds a powerful role such as Doctor, then he shouldn't set himself up as Town Leader because of that risk. However, how would the mafia know that the potential Town Leader has a powerful role anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 The only two problems I have with the Town Leader system are: 1) Sheep and 2) the difficulty of Mafia blending in. As for the Doctor protecting the Cop, I believe it's best said like this: Barring any Hitmen or whatever, you can have a 100% chance of keeping the Cop alive, or you can have a 1/X (where X is the number of people playing) chance of saving someone else, while risking the Cop's life. Even if the Doctor never saves anyone, keeping an important player alive is often just as, if not more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivalé Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 1) Sheep and 2) the difficulty of Mafia blending in 3) Having to keep track of all of the conversations as host 4) Possiblities of cheating 5) Massclaiming right away SUCKS and takes away all of the fun 6) Turns town into semi-informed majority 7) Is more about diplomacy rather than scumhunting (in some games) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 6) Turns town into semi-informed majority I can't believe I forgot about this. People who prove their roles to the Town Leader will be given access to everyone's role claims, while the Mafia have no way of catching up information wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) 3) Having to keep track of all of the conversations as host 4) Possiblities of cheating 5) Massclaiming right away SUCKS and takes away all of the fun 6) Turns town into semi-informed majority 7) Is more about diplomacy rather than scumhunting (in some games) 4) possibility of cheating always exists. 5 and 6) I think there is a degree to which town leader isn't very fun, so I think the existence of counter-measures that the mafia can use, such as Safeguard, Hitman, and Silencer (that would prevent conversation outside of the game thread as well) would make it more interesting for the town. I can't believe I forgot about this. People who prove their roles to the Town Leader will be given access to everyone's role claims, while the Mafia have no way of catching up information wise. And it's no reason why it can't be possible for mafia to 'prove' that they're innocent, just as it can sometimes be very difficult for townies to 'prove' that they're innocent. Edited May 20, 2011 by Anouleth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riariadne Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Town Leader makes you win more, but scumhunting is more fun. I think it's more of a matter of "making sure the mafia won't be completely screwed over by Town Leader" and giving them things to compensate for it, which can make it more interesting, but it's difficult to do so, notably with more than one mafia. Idk, I personally prefer NOC because it gives everyone a bit more fun out of it, which is kind of the point of playing mafia in the first place. But I can see the validity of Town Leader too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanarkin Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) OC games have barely any discussion within the topics and then the town leader comes with a vote, then the rest of town votes and there is no discussion. There is barely ever a reason given for the vote, and you basically feel forced to vote that person because town leader said so and you'd look scummy if you didn't. Its great when there is discussion, like when OC began being common in games, but now its just like, "oh i'm town leader vote whoever, he's maf. Thats all goodnight." Games nowadays are plagued by Zombies and spectator posts :/ Edited May 20, 2011 by Jhen Mohran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 OC games have barely any discussion within the topics and then the town leader comes with a vote, then the rest of town votes and there is no discussion. There is barely ever a reason given for the vote, and you basically feel forced to vote that person because town leader said so and you'd look scummy if you didn't. Its great when there is discussion, like when OC began being common in games, but now its just like, "oh i'm town leader vote whoever, he's maf. Thats all goodnight." Games nowadays are plagued by Zombies and spectator posts :/ I haven't gotten that impression at all from DT mafia. At the moment, everyone is under suspicion and there is no real town leader that has everyone's trust. In addition, not everyone went along with voting for the lynches - I didn't vote for Kay, for instance, when the lynch against her seemed especially weak. And there is plenty of discussion, just not in the game thread, because to be honest, communicating through forum posts is a little bit cumbersome when we could use instant messaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) Silencer (that would prevent conversation outside of the game thread as well) It really should, since otherwise it's almost useless. And it's no reason why it can't be possible for mafia to 'prove' that they're innocent, just as it can sometimes be very difficult for townies to 'prove' that they're innocent. How does the mafia 'prove' their innocence enough for them to be given access to some of the Town Leader's information? Edited May 20, 2011 by Radiant Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 3) Having to keep track of all of the conversations as host That's not really a point against OC as it doesn't affect the game itself. It really should, since otherwise it's almost useless. Agreeing with this. How does the mafia 'prove' their innocence enough for them to be given access to some of the Town Leader's information? Make a good fake claim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 It really should, since otherwise it's almost useless. It's useful for preventing voting, I guess, but I think it could be boosted. How does the mafia 'prove' their innocence enough for them to be given access to some of the Town Leader's information? Dunno. Since there are things like drivers, hookers, hitmen etc, it can be possible for the leader to be killed, so at some point the Town Leader needs to share the spreadsheet with someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Make a good fake claim? Like what? It has to be not only believable, but also provable. This usually requires the player to have a visiting role, but then they have to explain why their target always ends up roleblocked/silenced/dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleph Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Masons. Common role. I've never seen it considered broken before and I saw an entire group of masons get obliterated a few games back. You know who you are. OC has nothing to do with town leaders. Saying it does is like associating Mexicans with poverty or gay people with rainbows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) Masons. Common role. I've never seen it considered broken before and I saw an entire group of masons get obliterated a few games back. You know who you are. That was not my fault. The problem with this is that once one of the Mafia is investigated/killed, the rest of them are screwed. OC has nothing to do with town leaders. Saying it does is like associating Mexicans with poverty or gay people with rainbows. This is very true. Edited May 20, 2011 by Radiant Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleph Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) I was talking about Psych. Also, that's not a problem. It HELPS my case that people who are "an informed majority" are NOT broken; the town INHERENTLY can't be "informed". Edited May 20, 2011 by Obviam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Also, that's not a problem. It HELPS my case that people who are "an informed majority" are NOT broken; the town INHERENTLY can't be "informed". Masons are not an 'informed majority'; they're a minority. They're not even 'informed' in the sense I'm talking about (knowing who's Town and who's Mafia). And why can't the Town be 'informed'? Towns here frequently end up having more information than the Mafia does, while being larger than them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 Like what? It has to be not only believable, but also provable. This usually requires the player to have a visiting role, but then they have to explain why their target always ends up roleblocked/silenced/dead. It obviously depends on the game and what roles you actually have on your team. In general, this article seems to cover quite a bit regarding this topic though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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