Experimental tier list

[Chiki]

I've been thinking of doing this for a while. The idea of this tier list is to rank character based on 3 criteria:

Lowest amount of turns possible. I think this is self-explanatory. You guys might think "lowest" is a bit too extreme, but this isn't an LTC tier list; rather, we aim to get the lowest possible turn count possible without insane things like getting a Silver Lance crit on Petrine with 6% chance and using Sonic Sword Ike. No, we want to very comfortably get the lowest turn possible without relying on the RNG. I think we can all agree this is a good objective.

Highest reliability possible. Units who can take a bunch of hits are preferable over characters like Reyson and Soren. No strategies with crit and avoid and skill manipulation will be considered--only the most reliable ones.

Chapter complexity. Saving turns on certain chapters is more valuable than saving turns on others. So for example, it's more valuable to save a turn on Chapter 27 rather than 1. Lategame is generally more valuable than earlygame, with exceptions such as Chapter 7, which is a rout chapter filled with enemies.

Note: As long as using up resources doesn't negatively affect turncount and reliability, then it isn't a point against that unit.

This list is far from perfect, so feel free to make suggestions.

Goddesses Tier

Marcia
Titania

Top

Jill
Reyson
Oscar
Tanith
Mordecai

High

Muarim
Kieran
Makalov
Astrid

Mist
Boyd
Ike
Calill
Lethe

Upper-Mid

Soren
Ilyana
Rhys
Geoffrey

Mid

Tormod
Mia
Zihark

Stefan
Nephenee

Elincia
Volke

Lower-Mid

Haar
Gatrie
Ranulf
Sothe
Largo
Janaff
Bastian

Low

Shinon

Tauroneo

Devdan
Lucia

Bottom

Ulki
Brom
Rolf
Ena

Nasir

Edited April 21, 2013 by Olwen

[cyron]

we ought to first define chapter complexity, before making use of it (as in like make a numerical ranking system and rank all the chapters)

[Chiki]

Contributions on chapters with higher points are worth more than contributions on chapters with lower points.

1: 1/5

2: 1/5

3: 2/5

4: 4/5

5: 2/5

6: 2/5

7: 4/5

8: 2/5

9: 2/5

10: 1/5

11: 4/5

12: 1/5

13: 2/5

14: 2/5

15: 3/5

16: 4/5

17-1: 2/5

17-2: 1/5

17-3: 3/5

17-4: 2/5

18: 3/5

19: 2/5

20: 3/5

21: 5/5

22: 2/5

23: 5/5

24: 1/5

25: 5/5

26: 2/5

27: 4/5

28: 5/5

29: 4/5

[Snowy_One]

Maybe 'chapter complexity' should focus more on how little excess strategy is needed? Like, for example, Titania is a powerhouse in the early-game and can be employed with little thought and reduce turns without much effort making her 'simple'. Meanwhile Marcia relies on rescue-dropping certain units in certain locations, making her 'complex'. So Titania would score high since she doesn't need too much in terms of out-of-game knowledge to reduce turns, but Marcia would score low because she does?

[Espinosa]

Maybe 'chapter complexity' should focus more on how little excess strategy is needed? Like, for example, Titania is a powerhouse in the early-game and can be employed with little thought and reduce turns without much effort making her 'simple'. Meanwhile Marcia relies on rescue-dropping certain units in certain locations, making her 'complex'. So Titania would score high since she doesn't need too much in terms of out-of-game knowledge to reduce turns, but Marcia would score low because she does?

You mean Titania doesn't/can't rescuedrop other units? Marcia also gets terribly self-sufficient too, perhaps moreso than Titania, needing ferrying of others (aside from Ike in specific maps) less than just doing the work on her own; e.g. if you've BEXP'd her to 2-turn chapter 12, it's no longer a good idea to ferry a foot unit with a Laguz-slaying weapon to defeat Muarim since she most likely has the stats to do the bosskilling alone.

I wonder if you've ever tried LTCing the early chapters when you say the usage of Titania is simple. You don't just push her forward with a 1~2 range weapon equipped, for one you have one Javelin, one Hand Axe and one Short Spear until chapter 8, so deciding who uses these and when is important, but that's not even the gist of it. In chapter 3, if the player wants to reliably 3-turn the map, talk to Marcia and get the Hand Axe drop, s/he should position the characters in a specific way and even unequip Titania for turns 1 and 2 enemy phase. Chapter 7 is another example of a map where Titania needs to go in a specific direction and attack specific enemies with specific weapons to get you low turns.

Anyway, if using a certain unit only makes things more complex for you, as you put it, that's a negative trait and by no means a positive one. Your theory doesn't correlate with the real situation in this game regardless. What Titania (earlygame) and Marcia (afterwards) offer you is convenience and simplicity.

[Snowy_One]

You mean Titania doesn't/can't rescuedrop other units? Marcia also gets terribly self-sufficient too, perhaps moreso than Titania, needing ferrying of others (aside from Ike in specific maps) less than just doing the work on her own; e.g. if you've BEXP'd her to 2-turn chapter 12, it's no longer a good idea to ferry a foot unit with a Laguz-slaying weapon to defeat Muarim since she most likely has the stats to do the bosskilling alone.

I wonder if you've ever tried LTCing the early chapters when you say the usage of Titania is simple. You don't just push her forward with a 1~2 range weapon equipped, for one you have one Javelin, one Hand Axe and one Short Spear until chapter 8, so deciding who uses these and when is important, but that's not even the gist of it. In chapter 3, if the player wants to reliably 3-turn the map, talk to Marcia and get the Hand Axe drop, s/he should position the characters in a specific way and even unequip Titania for turns 1 and 2 enemy phase. Chapter 7 is another example of a map where Titania needs to go in a specific direction and attack specific enemies with specific weapons to get you low turns.

Anyway, if using a certain unit only makes things more complex for you, as you put it, that's a negative trait and by no means a positive one. Your theory doesn't correlate with the real situation in this game regardless. What Titania (earlygame) and Marcia (afterwards) offer you is convenience and simplicity.

I don't mean Titania can't rescue-drop. I mean Titania's power and usage in LTC is simply not dependent on any one strategy being used. Marcia's is. Even if one were to argue that Marcia ends up as the single best combat unit in the game (which she isn't), she doesn't start off that way and a lot of her power comes not from her own, unique, power, but in how she's played.

The simple fact is that ranking 'complexity' as an LTC factor is simply redundant in this list so long as that first criteria is in place. If it's decided that chapter X is worth more than chapter Y, characters who shave turns off on chapter X will be getting ranked higher in LTC anyways regardless of 'complexity' as the two are practically the same thing and the only overriding differences will matter in, maybe, one or two character placements.

[Baldrick]

Should the list take into account uniqueness? As in, if we assume the unit is not deployed, how well can the others cover their absence?

[Chiki]

Should the list take into account uniqueness? As in, if we assume the unit is not deployed, how well can the others cover their absence?

I don't know. If we had a million Marcias, would they all be top tier or would all Marcias go into low tier as they're all equally useful? I think the latter is absurd in this example.

But on the other hand is another example. If everyone could open chests, Volke and Sothe would logically go into bottom tier.

There are cases in which uniqueness doesn't seem rational, but some cases where it does.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Olwen

[Refa]

If everyone could fly and canto, Marcia would go into bottom tier, yes.

[dondon151]

I don't know. If we had a million Marcias, would they all be top tier or would all Marcias go into low tier as they're all equally useful? I think the latter is absurd in this example.

they would all be top tier because everyone else is worse

or consider it this way: they would all be low tier and everyone else would be bottom tier

[-Cynthia-]

With the relatively decreased value of earlygame, I'm questioning the tier gap between Oscar and Kieran. Oscar might have slightly higher reliability due to earth supports, but it's rare that Kieran will actually be in danger of dying. Kieran outclasses Oscar in Atk for most of the game really, unless Oscar gets significantly more BEXP.

That's the first thing that caught my eye anyway.

Edited April 15, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[Espinosa]

Mordecai > Kieran does seem kinda fishy, though that's a battle between utility and raw combat (Mordecai is really just a smite bot in efficiency and not much else).

Re: everyone being able to open chests - that's actually the real situation, except the Chest Keys are so limited that if you don't field any thieves for C13, you'll either sacrifice 3 turns or miss out on critical stuff like Resolve later.

[Snowy_One]

Why the heck is Mordi so high anyways? He has some serious speed issues that will hamper his ability to fight, has to deal with either the Laguz transform problems and his gauge starting at 0 or snap up the demi-band, and has the Laguz claw, a weapon that gets outdated once silver comes around and lacks anything unique. I can understand his shoving/smiting putting him as the best Laguz, but better than a unit who is constantly good like Kieran? That seems really wrong by any standard.

[Life]

Mordi > Muarim is fishy to me too. Muarim comes with the Demi Band (meaning that it doesn't exist before 16) and has much better raw stats than Mordecai. I'm not saying that Morde is useless pre-15 but Muarim can at least hold on for much longer and then can shed the Demi Band late-game and still work around his Laguz gauge due to it not starting at 0. It's great but still better than Morde's situation.

Both are too high regardless. Laguz bar is that crippling in this game.

[Chiki]

Kieran doesn't even do that much in the game other than kill things. Mordecai is just a fantastic Smite user that cuts several turns (probably over a dozen). There's no way to deny that his utility > whatever Kieran can do.

Oscar is around for nasty chapters like 7, and Kieran's availability doesn't mean too much other than a potential turn cut and reliability. Oscar helps cut turns from early game chapters too, though less important.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Olwen

[Espinosa]

Without capable combat units like Kieran, Mordy wouldn't have anybody to Smite though would he and there would be no turns to be cut.

[Chiki]

Mordecai never has reason to Smite Kieran in particular.

[Hawkeye]

Your list doesn't include Nasir.

[Snowy_One]

Also, if smiting is REALLY that important, what about Kieran's rescuing? That allows much more transportation than can ever be done with a smite.

Edit: Not to mention Canto.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Snowy_One

[Chiki]

Also, if smiting is REALLY that important, what about Kieran's rescuing? That allows much more transportation than can ever be done with a smite.

Edit: Not to mention Canto.

But are there practical situations in which it is useful?

Thanks, Nasir is in now.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Olwen

[Espinosa]

Mordecai never has reason to Smite Kieran in particular.

He might if Kieran is your mounted bosskiller (e.g. you're definitely smiting one in chapter 14), but that's besides the point - without anybody to Smite, Mordecai won't cut any turns, and he's not fighting anything ever, even Demi Banded.

Also if a lowest turns playthrough is assumed, should Jill, Haar, Stefan, Lucia, Bastian, Devdan, maybe even Zihark even be mentioned in the tier list? Jill being at the Top would be particularly hard to justify, since she costs, what, 4 turns (1 in chapter 11, 3 in chapter 12)?

Also, if smiting is REALLY that important, what about Kieran's rescuing? That allows much more transportation than can ever be done with a smite.

Edit: Not to mention Canto.

Canto and mounted movement lacks the capacity to push other mounted units forward. Somebody will probably have to rescue Ike at some point in seize maps, though.

[Chiki]

He might if Kieran is your mounted bosskiller (e.g. you're definitely smiting one in chapter 14), but that's besides the point - without anybody to Smite, Mordecai won't cut any turns, and he's not fighting anything ever, even Demi Banded.

Also if a lowest turns playthrough is assumed, should Jill, Haar, Stefan, Lucia, Bastian, Devdan, maybe even Zihark even be mentioned in the tier list? Jill being at the Top would be particularly hard to justify, since she costs, what, 4 turns (1 in chapter 11, 3 in chapter 12)?

Canto and mounted movement lacks the capacity to push other mounted units forward. Somebody will probably have to rescue Ike at some point in seize maps, though.

I don't see your argument. While it's true that Mordecai needs strong combat units to shove, that doesn't mean Kieran in particular should get points for it when powerhouses like Marcia, Tanith and Jill and even Oscar. If tier lists assume how likely you are to use units based on their tier, then what are the odds of using only Kieran as your mounted bosskiller?

Your second suggestion is something I'll probably do. I'll consider the turns that they cost to recruit and drop them accordingly.

Dropped everyone except Zihark. Jill went down to Top Tier.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Olwen

[Snowy_One]

I could ask the same question about smite. But the simple fact is that any movement gained via having Mordi smite someone will be outdone by having Keiran rescue someone and drop them off. After all, Kieran's base movement is 8. So him rescuing someone can give them an amount of movement equal to 4 smites (assuming the path is clear). So for the primary purpose of increasing movement, Smite is stomped by rescues.

[Espinosa]

I could ask the same question about smite. But the simple fact is that any movement gained via having Mordi smite someone will be outdone by having Keiran rescue someone and drop them off. After all, Kieran's base movement is 8. So him rescuing someone can give them an amount of movement equal to 4 smites (assuming the path is clear). So for the primary purpose of increasing movement, Smite is stomped by rescues.

A rescuedrop requires two characters to stop attacking enemies (perhaps miss a chance to use a Vulnerary or a Pure Water) and waste a turn each, one rescuing, the other take-dropping. The unit who got rescuedropped also does nothing upon being dropped (though he might have carried out an action the same turn prior to being rescued).

The main difference, though, is that you can (and should, within the context of efficiency) smite mounted units, making highly mobile units even more mobile. Olwen's tier list is basically a list of units that contribute to his LTC playthrough, and an extra Smite will very often mean an extra turn saved or easing up some other less wanted requirements (e.g. smiting a character twice instead of promoting them when BEXP is too precious to be dumped into them straight away).

Muarim requires the Smite scroll to match Mordecai's utility and loses a lot in availability as a smiter. His fighting with the Demi Band is also nothing spectacular (though just good enough for a while against a lot of enemy types which he ORKOs). Muarim also competes against Ranulf for the Smite scroll who comes essentially one chapter later with better bases (but can't smite Haar transformed).

[-Cynthia-]

Nasir's placement seems kind of high- he doesn't really have the chance to do anything in the two chapters where he exists unless we move ultra slow. His Mov is low and he has a troublesome gauge to deal with anyway. Tauroneo is useful on his join chapter and Shinon probably saves a turn in Chapter 7, and if fielded Lucia can at least kill some stuff. While Nasir's bases may look much better than Ena's, in practice I don't think it matters.