Chrom Chapter 11/12 Marriage Priority Discussion Thread

[shadowofchaos]

This is to just carry all the clutter and such from my findings so far.

I have yet to record the full experiment since I was just testing this out for both the Japanese and English versions, however I am seeing a trend.

And the early conclusion so far is pretty much screws up any previous assumptions about support levels from previous Fire Emblem games:

Support point levels for when a support conversations is available to see (when the points cap) is VARIABLE for each character support pair.

Edit: This seems to be incorrect. See the quoted posts below.

I will be posting the screenshots and video sometime later on and nicely presented in another thread, but that is my findings so far.

In essence, the priority is CORRECT if you have the support points equal.

(The priority from the mainsite is: Sumia > Mariabel/Maribelle > Soiree/Sully > Olivia > Female MU > Generic Village Girl)

And from what I have found... Olivia seems to have the highest point cap. Which leads Chrom to marry her if you have everyone ready to C and see that any more Bond Seeds/Seeds of Trust cannot be used with Olivia and Chrom (Usage of 4) in Chapter 11 to indicate that they would normally have enough points to view a C support conversation outside of a chapter.

Edit: Incorrect information.

So yeah, have at it people, until I have the experiment finalized.

Edit: New info:

And it looks like I actually made a pretty big assumption that the bond seeds give the same amount of points.

For one thing, it looks like the "priority" is only because of Sumia gaining points with him faster.

Priority on capped "Before C" support (Shown with a greyed out bond seed in inventory):

All has capped: Olivia married.

Everyone but Olivia: Sumia married.

Olivia and Sumia excluded: Soiree/Sully married.

Olivia, Sumia, and Soiree/Sully excluded: Mariabel/Maribelle married.

Obviously, Female MU would be last... and then the Village Girl.

Seems like the priority is:

Olivia > Sumia > Soiree/Sully > Mariabel/Maribelle > FeMU > Village Girl

Edited May 10, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Sunwoo]

That is ... so bizarre ;/ And sounds like something that should be more detailed in the marriage thread because of how odd it is.

[pinkbubblegum]

That is ... so bizarre ;/ And sounds like something that should be more detailed in the marriage thread because of how odd it is.

It does make sense though, given how potential arduous it is to get the two of them to marry in the first place. I guess they wanted to give a bit of leeway and not restrict gameplay? So you could still Pair Up Chrom with other ladies without necessarily having to worry about his ineligibility with Olivia.

Until you view their supports, that is.

[Samias]

I think it's more of a side effect of having it take longer to trigger Chrom and Olivia's C conversation if they don't get married, since they're less "close". I noticed some of the paralogue characters would take ages to trigger their supports relative to other characters, particularly Priam, so I began to wonder if there was variable point gain or variable caps.

[shadykid]

I kind of noticed this while grinding supports with the children....hmmm

[Sunwoo]

I wouldn't be surprised if people gained support points at different RATES. That's pretty much been around since FE6, when the support system was first implemented. But different support CAPS is something else. Like, to take FE7 for example, Rath gained support points with Lyn and Guy faster than he gained them with Wil, but you'd still need the same amount of support points to unlock each level of support. If I'm not misinterpreting soc here, then support points have different CAPS for different people, which is fucking confusing.

[shadowofchaos]

I wouldn't be surprised if people gained support points at different RATES.

Like I said this is the discussion thread.

And it looks like I actually made a pretty big assumption that the bond seeds give the same amount of points.

For one thing, it looks like the "priority" is only because of Sumia gaining points with him faster.

Attacked with Chrom Alone. Generic Village Girl married.

Attacked once with Sumia. Sumia Married.

Attacked with Olivia. Olivia Married.

Attacked with Olivia AND Sumia next to Chrom. Sumia married.

Attacked once with Olivia. Attacked once with Chrom with both Sumia and Olivia next to him. Sumia married.

Attacked twice with Olivia. Attacked once with Chrom paired up with Olivia and next to Sumia. Olivia married.

The only way to tell that they are actually EQUAL points is when bond seeds get greyed out. For Olivia seems to have the highest priority.

The difficult part about this... is determining if pairing up gives more support points... urgh.

Bond Seed usages to cap starting at zero:

Sumia: 2 seeds

Mariabel/Maribelle: 3 seeds

Soiree/Sully: 3 seeds

Female MU: 4 seeds

Olivia: 4 seeds

Tiamo/Cordelia: NONE, BECAUSE SHE CAN'T SUPPORT WITH HIM DESPITE BEING ON THE FIELD FOR THIS EXPERIMENT. HAHAHAHAHA.

Priority on capped "Before C" support:

All has capped: Olivia married.

Everyone but Olivia: Sumia married.

Olivia and Sumia excluded: Soiree/Sully married.

Olivia, Sumia, and Soiree/Sully excluded: Mariabel/Maribelle married.

Obviously, Female MU would be last... and then the Village Girl.

Seems like the priority is:

Olivia > Sumia > Soiree/Sully > Mariabel/Maribelle > FeMU > Village Girl

And if anyone's curious to my setup:

The total is 16 seeds used. One seed is used to confirm that it is greyed out for all the girls.

Libera/Libra is used to kill the mage unless it's used for an attack "support point" confirmation.

I have yet to do it on my English copy, but I do have it at this chapter. I just need to get 17 "Seed of Trust" from the Summer of Bonds/Summer Scramble.

Edited May 10, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Renne]

I like how there's a Cordelia on the field just watching Chrom get with all those girls. /like

I dunno if I'm just half-asleep or what, but it seems kinda confusing... so Olivia is sorta in the lead? just Sumia gains points faster...

[Sunwoo]

Priority on capped "Before C" support:

All has capped: Olivia married.

Everyone but Olivia: Sumia married.

Olivia and Sumia excluded: Soiree/Sully married.

Olivia, Sumia, and Soiree/Sully excluded: Mariabel/Maribelle married.

Obviously, Female MU would be last... and then the Village Girl.

Seems like the priority is:

Olivia > Sumia > Soiree/Sully > Mariabel/Maribelle > FeMU > Village Girl

That's pretty much the same result I got when I initially tried this about a month ago. So you're saying the bond seeds might not increase supports at the same rate?

(I'm going to have to see if I can't run some tests on my own when I have time, lol.)

[Iridium]

Technically speaking, wouldn't Maiden be the highest-priority bride? If they're all equal, she wins.

The only caveat is that, because there's no way to gain points with her, the only way they can be equal is if none of the girls have any points with Chrom.

Also, I accidentally got Maiden on my first run before I reset for Olivia, but I'm 99% sure that Chrom entered at least one battle with both female Avatar and Sully. So I'm inclined to believe that Maiden's value is nonzero... just, uh, really really low. I'm also 100% sure that Olivia danced for Chrom, but she died in that battle (in casual mode), so either Casual Mode resets support points gained from that chapter or else, yeah, Maiden's got at least one or two hearts.

[shadowofchaos]

Another tiny experiment before I go to sleep:

Since Female MU and Olivia have to use 4 bond seeds, we have the following assumptions:

1. They have the lowest support growth rate with Chrom, so I will assume that they get absolutely only one point. Just like some characters so long ago in the FE GBAs. Sophia and Sue come to mind in FE6 with Roy. The point of this tiny experiment is to confirm this.

2. Oliva trumps FeMU when equal, so that means if they do truly only get one point, the following experiment will result that FeMU will marry Chrom after 2 attacks with him, and then one attack with Olivia.

Unfortunately since this would involve killing the mage outright with FeMU, I had to restart. xD

So now I have another battle save with 3 mages.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_cuSpkC0Zc

I think I'll use this one instead. Breaking their weapons while they're on forts would make this a lot easier for "one point differences" instead of worrying about a mage surviving to compare points.

New Setup:

Two attacks paired up with Rei (FeMU) to kill two mages (one hit each) with Chrom.

End Turn.

Tiamo/Cordelia takes Rei.

Olivia pairs up with Chrom.

Chrom kills final mage.

(Chrom was not next to anyone when killing the mages)

Result:

And the winner is Rei.

We can confirm that Olivia and FeMU get the lowest support points with Chrom. So, even if it's not literally a "one" in the 3DS memory, for the purposes of this experiment, we can safely take that unit as a "one".

Edit: HOLD YOUR HORSES.

Seems like one attack from Chrom paired up with Rei to kill a mage. Then another one paired up with Olivia ends up with Rei still winning.

Will look into this tomorrow.

Good Night.

Technically speaking, wouldn't Maiden be the highest-priority bride? If they're all equal, she wins.

The only caveat is that, because there's no way to gain points with her, the only way they can be equal is if none of the girls have any points with Chrom.

Also, I accidentally got Maiden on my first run before I reset for Olivia, but I'm 99% sure that Chrom entered at least one battle with both female Avatar and Sully. So I'm inclined to believe that Maiden's value is nonzero... just, uh, really really low. I'm also 100% sure that Olivia danced for Chrom, but she died in that battle (in casual mode), so either Casual Mode resets support points gained from that chapter or else, yeah, Maiden's got at least one or two hearts.

It *IS* possible that Maiden has one or two hearts... if it's the lowest "unit" of measurement.

Again we can't really be sure until we get access to the 3DS memory... but I have confirmed that dancing for Chrom once then killing the mage without a pair up... ends up Chrom with the Village Girl.

I'm guessing though, that one attack with anyone gives enough support "hearts" of lowest unit to overcome the Maiden's default set.

I mean the 3DS has enough memory... it's not like we should assume that the support values are 8-bit. It can be HUGE for all we know. But for the purposes of our experiment, we will treat FeMU and Olivia's support gains as "one" as the lowest unit involving Chrom's support points for his forced marriage.

Edited May 10, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Vashiane]

I wouldn't be surprised if people gained support points at different RATES. That's pretty much been around since FE6, when the support system was first implemented. But different support CAPS is something else. Like, to take FE7 for example, Rath gained support points with Lyn and Guy faster than he gained them with Wil, but you'd still need the same amount of support points to unlock each level of support. If I'm not misinterpreting soc here, then support points have different CAPS for different people, which is fucking confusing.

So, going off of this, that means that each characters has a certain amount of hearts they have to get before they can reach the next support. But if each character has different support caps, whose cap takes precedence? If Chrom were to have a support/heart cap of, say, ten, and Olivia has one of twelve, would the support be unlocked at ten hearts between the two or twelve?

And this is a refresher question (because I completely forgot, airheaded me), but what actions gives hearts again? I know that Dual Guarding/Dual Striking does, and I'm fairly certain that if the front unit attacks and kills the target even without the other's assistance they still get hearts, but is that it?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Im always under the impression that Olivia has higher cap than Sumia

And thats basically it >_>

[shadowofchaos]

So, going off of this, that means that each characters has a certain amount of hearts they have to get before they can reach the next support. But if each character has different support caps, whose cap takes precedence? If Chrom were to have a support/heart cap of, say, ten, and Olivia has one of twelve, would the support be unlocked at ten hearts between the two or twelve?

And this is a refresher question (because I completely forgot, airheaded me), but what actions gives hearts again? I know that Dual Guarding/Dual Striking does, and I'm fairly certain that if the front unit attacks and kills the target even without the other's assistance they still get hearts, but is that it?

Simply attacking while paired up or right next to the person gives hearts. Killing the enemy isn't needed. Dual Guarding even when the unit that got attacked cannot attack back will also give hearts.

Same with healing/staff usage and dancing.

Edited May 10, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

This is an interesting experiment you've got going here, Shadowofchaos. :o

But I wonder who would Chrom end up marrying if he had the same number of points with all the ladies while they're not capped? I suppose this is impossible to find out without hacking or something though. Still, I'm not complaining if Olivia has highest priority no matter when the points are equal, since I'm a ChromxOlivia shipper. ^^

[Shadow Mir]

This is an interesting experiment you've got going here, Shadowofchaos. :o

But I wonder who would Chrom end up marrying if he had the same number of points with all the ladies while they're not capped? I suppose this is impossible to find out without hacking or something though. Still, I'm not complaining if Olivia has highest priority no matter when the points are equal, since I'm a ChromxOlivia shipper. ^^

I'd assume that if he doesn't have enough support points with any of them for the C support to be available, he'd wind up marrying the village girl.

[shadowofchaos]

It would make sense that she'd have the highest priority on equal points.

Considering she can't even C support with him before the chapter.

I personally think it's a stupid design choice. If she was to be a candidate, they should have made it like how Lucina joined at the end of the last chapter... however, that ruins the entire "dancer tutorial card" if you can make her optional. And she's not important enough to force on the preparations screen.

If they were so concerned about the freaking tutorial card, they shouldn't have made her a candidate at all.

Well, time to find out exactly how many "one unit" points it takes to equal out FeMU with Olivia... and pretty much having Olivia attacked with Chrom paired up equal to the other ladies.

...this is seriously cutting in on my time to edit and sub other videos. Meh. Why do I do this to myself?

I'd assume that if he doesn't have enough support points with any of them for the C support to be available, he'd wind up marrying the village girl.

Doesn't make sense. Attacked once with each girl at "relative zero" once, and only that girl. Chrom married that corresponding girl.

Edited May 10, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Vashiane]

This is an interesting experiment you've got going here, Shadowofchaos. :o

But I wonder who would Chrom end up marrying if he had the same number of points with all the ladies while they're not capped? I suppose this is impossible to find out without hacking or something though. Still, I'm not complaining if Olivia has highest priority no matter when the points are equal, since I'm a ChromxOlivia shipper. ^^

I doubt that having the same amount of points will carry well if they have different support caps.

If - just for the ease of it - assume that Olivia has ten points for her C-support cap, and Sumia has, say, 6, if they have the same amount of points uncapped (picking a random number...4), Sumia's 4/6 is higher than Olivia's 4/10.

EDIT: Well, someone above mentioned that the village girl probably has at least a heart or two, so as long as one girl has more than one heart above the other girls, including the maiden, she should win.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Vashiane

[Shadow Mir]

Doesn't make sense. Attacked once with each girl at "relative zero" once, and only that girl. Chrom married that corresponding girl.

Aww... My theory... Again...

[shadowofchaos]

If - just for the ease of it - assume that Olivia has ten points for her C-support cap, and Sumia has, say, 6, if they have the same amount of points uncapped (picking a random number...4), Sumia's 4/6 is higher than Olivia's 4/10.

I think the whole cap thing might be a little "drawing a conclusion based on incomplete information" on my part.

[Vashiane]

I think the whole cap thing might be a little "drawing a conclusion based on incomplete information" on my part.

Well, I wonder how they calculate the support points then. Does each character have a particular support cap or all the number of points universal but the rate of them is different. And if it's a percentage, would be a percentage of getting a support point or the percentage of a total point given?

Hmm... Wish there was a way to know for certain.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Vashiane

[shadowofchaos]

Hmm... Wish there was a way to know for certain.

Someone get me a debugger. lololololol.

But no seriously, we can never really find out until an emulator comes out... because no one is going to risk their job with Nintendo game development just for a silly experiment.

[Vashiane]

Someone get me a debugger. lololololol.

But no seriously, we can never really find out until an emulator comes out... because no one is going to risk their job with Nintendo game development just for a silly experiment.

Well, shoot. My mind cannot rest until I know this information. [/dons Miriel's hat]

Getting Olivia to marry Chrom isn't that much of a pain, really, so long as you make sure Chrom bromances it up with Gaius, Vaike and Frederick (and Male!Avatar is applicable) and then have Chrom tank the map with Olivia in tow. A Seed of Trust doesn't hurt.

By the way, without grinding, about how many chapters does it usually take to get Chrom to S rank with either Sumia, Maribelle, Female!Avatar and Sully? Female!Avatar I can attest to, without grinding my sister did it in 6.

[Shadow Mir]

Getting Olivia to marry Chrom isn't that much of a pain, really, so long as you make sure Chrom bromances it up with Gaius, Vaike and Frederick (and Male!Avatar is applicable) and then have Chrom tank the map with Olivia in tow. A Seed of Trust doesn't hurt.

By the way, without grinding, about how many chapters does it usually take to get Chrom to S rank with either Sumia, Maribelle, Female!Avatar and Sully? Female!Avatar I can attest to, without grinding my sister did it in 6.

The second part is a good question - although I highly doubt you could get Maribelle to marry Chrom before chapter 11 without grinding. You gotta admit, though - his female supporters are better than his male supporters (ignoring Avatar).

Edited May 10, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Renne]

Getting Olivia to marry Chrom isn't that much of a pain, really, so long as you make sure Chrom bromances it up with Gaius, Vaike and Frederick (and Male!Avatar is applicable) and then have Chrom tank the map with Olivia in tow. A Seed of Trust doesn't hurt.

By the way, without grinding, about how many chapters does it usually take to get Chrom to S rank with either Sumia, Maribelle, Female!Avatar and Sully? Female!Avatar I can attest to, without grinding my sister did it in 6.

It's particularly easier with male Avatar if you want Chrom/Olivia. The only thing for me is that my male Avatar would marry Olivia.

For Sumia, I think... well, I don't know because I only got them to A but I don't think there were many chapters. Then again, I was sorta 'grinding' them to A so it took like 2-3 maps of solo/duo pair ups. And female Avatar is around that number, though I went for the Chapter 11 confession. That's pretty much when it could be unlocked though.

And I'm intrigued on the differences between support points given for pair-ups partners and those who are simply standing next to each other.