Sydney Siege

[Parrhesia]

There's a siege.

Here's a live feed.

Frightening to think it could've happened anywhere, not just some upmarket cafe - thankfully it doesn't seem like anyone's died and three people have escaped or been freed so far, but... nobody knows how many people are inside.

And of course, this is going to lead to an escalation of fear from Islamophobes, of fucking course.

[MercyWalk]

Facebook cleansing begins

[Chiki]

And of course, this is going to lead to an escalation of fear from Islamophobes,

It is perfectly rational to be afraid of a violent, sexist religion like Islam, in the same way that it's rational to be afraid of Nazism for its racist and violent ideology.

It's not a coincidence that Islam is response for all of this violence throughout the world nowadays. All of this stuff is encouraged in the Quran.

On the other hand, it's not so rational to be afraid of most Muslims. Most Muslims are peaceful and don't deserve to be feared.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Chiki

[Parrhesia]

It is perfectly rational to be afraid of a violent, sexist religion like Islam, in the same way that it's rational to be afraid of Nazism for its racist and violent ideology.

It's not a coincidence that Islam is response for all of this violence throughout the world nowadays. All of this stuff is encouraged in the Quran.

On the other hand, it's not so rational to be afraid of most Muslims. Most Muslims are peaceful and don't deserve to be feared.

I'd laugh if your attitude wasn't legitimately harmful.

[Nightmare]

Seriously? Comparing Islam to Nazism? This only goes to show how little you actually know on the subject of Islam, but you seem to think you actually know something (like with so many other things).

In other words, that's seriously offensive and that sort of misleading information will not fly under my watch. Have a nice vacation.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Nightmare

[Tryhard]

To play devil's advocate for once, I do try to separate criticisms of an organized religion from a criticism of all people in that religion.

Still, to say "but most Muslims are peaceful" after comparing Islam to Nazism doesn't sit well at all with me, anyway.

I hope everyone gets out of there okay.

[eclipse]

Some of the reactions to the situation are. . .terrible, like that guy who decided to yell anti-Islamic stuff at near-ground zero. Others are amazing, like this (which I grabbed off of the live feed):

"If I took my headscarf off I would be just another member of the crowd," she said.

Either way, I hope this gets resolved peacefully.

[Raven]

It is perfectly rational to be afraid of a violent, sexist religion like Islam, in the same way that it's rational to be afraid of Nazism for its racist and violent ideology.

It's not a coincidence that Islam is response for all of this violence throughout the world nowadays. All of this stuff is encouraged in the Quran.

On the other hand, it's not so rational to be afraid of most Muslims. Most Muslims are peaceful and don't deserve to be feared.

I'm not the biggest fan of religion by any means, but fuck me. If you got rid of Islam, violence around the world would not suddenly come to a stop, as you seem to be implying. Try to educate yourself at least a little before spouting such bullshit. Anders Breivik? A Christian extremist. But you probably don't know who he is or what he did since you seem pretty set in your anti-Islamist ways.

[Azura]

This is so horrible, I read about this on the news this morning.

My mind have just gone on repeat this morning with one thought: "please dont let this be a repetition of what happened in Oslo and Utøya, please don't let them be inspired by Breivik pleasepleaseplase"

Also, am I the only one who thinks that it is extremely unethical to release uncensored pictures of the fleeing hostages? This both marks them as victims for life, and makes them way easier to identify in the case that some sick fuck decides to do some kind of retribution/punishment for those who fled.

[dondon151]

Seriously? Comparing Islam to Nazism? This only goes to show how little you actually know on the subject of Islam, but you seem to think you actually know something (like with so many other things).

are you suggesting that you know more? do tell, islamic scholar nightmare.

if you actually banned chiki from posting in serious discussion or inflicted some disciplinary measure, that's hilarious - in the black humor kind of way, of course. i'd use stronger, more direct language here, but i'd also like to avoid the risk being disciplined as a result of gross misinterpretation.

I'm not the biggest fan of religion by any means, but fuck me. If you got rid of Islam, violence around the world would not suddenly come to a stop, as you seem to be implying.

he's really not implying that.

Try to educate yourself at least a little before spouting such bullshit. Anders Breivik? A Christian extremist. But you probably don't know who he is or what he did since you seem pretty set in your anti-Islamist ways.

pot calling the kettle black, etc.

"islamist" has a spectrum of definitions, but i'd raise my eyebrows if you said that you weren't skeptical of islamism. islamist ideology is, almost by definition, responsible for all terrorism or other violence conducted in the name of islam.

Edited December 15, 2014 by dondon151

[FrostyFireMage]

I hope this doesn't lead to any anti-Islamic riots or worse.

[Nightmare]

are you suggesting that you know more? do tell, islamic scholar nightmare.

if you actually banned chiki from posting in serious discussion or inflicted some disciplinary measure, that's hilarious - in the black humor kind of way, of course. i'd use stronger, more direct language here, but i'd also like to avoid the risk being disciplined as a result of gross misinterpretation.

I feel a little betrayed! I thought you'd actually know why I'd say that, but looks like I was wrong.

Regardless, it doesn't take a scholar to know that Chiki's comparison was absurd and offensive, not to mention the last bit which Tryhard pointed out.

If you don't think that deserves a punishment of some level, then I suppose you're more tolerant than I am or something, for which I congratulate you. If you'd like to discuss this more, however, feel free to PM me. I'd like this thread to remain uncluttered, so I don't want to see any more of this.

[Azura]

I'm not the biggest fan of religion by any means, but fuck me. If you got rid of Islam, violence around the world would not suddenly come to a stop, as you seem to be implying. Try to educate yourself at least a little before spouting such bullshit. Anders Breivik? A Christian extremist. But you probably don't know who he is or what he did since you seem pretty set in your anti-Islamist ways.

To play devil's advocate for once, I do try to separate criticisms of an organized religion from a criticism of all people in that religion.

To be honest, I think that the Abrahamic religions have a lot of potential for nastiness, with ''There is only one god'' being the central dogma of the religions, implying that everybody with differing beliefs are heretics, whereas polytheistic religions tends to have a more ''they have their gods, we have our gods, lets find out who has the strongest''-sort of view.

Christianity and Islam especially nasty, since they actively require followers to smite heathens/enforce their belief system on everybody else, whereas Judaism is more like being a member of a very exclusive club.

Imo the only thing separating Christianity and Islam is the fact that Christian states somehow managed to become more secular during the course of history, which many Islamic countries is still struggling to do.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Azura

[dondon151]

I feel a little betrayed! I thought you'd actually know why I'd say that, but looks like I was wrong.

Regardless, it doesn't take a scholar to know that Chiki's comparison was absurd and offensive, not to mention the last bit which Tryhard pointed out.

what? just to make things clear: i agree ~95% with chiki's post, and i will explain why.

1. the comparison between islamism and nazism is surprisingly justified. islamofascism exists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism. the obvious difference is that not everyone who follows islam is a fascist (i should not have to state this, but very few muslims are fascist...).

if you object to such a label, consider the islamic state and make an argument that it does not bear the political elements of fascism - militaristic, nationalistic, masculine, anti-liberal, and ideological. the islamic state is the most extreme example (and also currently the most relevant), but there are plenty of islamic nations who would neatly fit into this category. iran and saudi arabia are the first two off the top of my head.

2. islamist ideology is lifted from the text of the qu'ran.

you honestly don't have to look very hard. a cornerstone of islamist ideology is sharia. wikipedia says regarding sharia:

"There are two primary sources of sharia law: the precepts set forth in the Quranic verses (ayahs), and the example set by the Islamic prophet Muhammad in the Sunnah."

3. the distinction between islamists and muslims is perfectly valid and also obviously true.

there was a knee-jerk reaction, exhibited by you, parrhesia, and raven, that instantly condemned chiki's post as hateful and harmful. i argue that your position is actually more harmful: it refuses to acknowledge that islamist ideology is a dangerous one, it doesn't bother acknowledging the critical distinction in #3 that chiki made (though this is more of an offense to reading comprehension than it is to anything else), and it smacks of arrogance both that you claim to know this religion better than someone else who has the ability to read, and that the people in the muslim world don't need to be held up to the same standards as the people in the western world.

you chastised chiki for showing "how little [he knows] on the subject of islam," but when i challenged you to show that you know better, you ignored it.

If you don't think that deserves a punishment of some level, then I suppose you're more tolerant than I am or something, for which I congratulate you. If you'd like to discuss this more, however, feel free to PM me. I'd like this thread to remain uncluttered, so I don't want to see any more of this.

i'm going to decline this request for now because chiki's discipline is very intricately tied to the topic of this discussion. there are users who have said more inflammatory, less nuanced things in this forum and were (probably) not punished, much less publicly reprimanded for their utterances. i'm basically saying the exact same thing in this post that chiki said in his post, only with more elaboration. if what he said fits under your disciplinary criteria, then the same should apply for the contents of this post.

so should i be disciplined for being "seriously offensive" and spreading "misleading information?"

Edited December 15, 2014 by dondon151

[Parrhesia]

man i sure love how we're using a national crisis as an excuse to condemn Islam - and that's a reminder that Chiki said 'Islam', not 'Islamism'.

on the bright side, fuck racism

[FrostyFireMage]

dondon's ignorance is great and terrible

[dondon151]

man i sure love how we're using a national crisis as an excuse to condemn Islam - and that's a reminder that Chiki said 'Islam', not 'Islamism'.

this is honestly splitting hairs considering that i already said: islamist ideology comes from islam. islam encourages islamism. few muslims endorse islamism because - news flash - most muslims don't follow the qu'ran to a T.

the book of matthew exhorts christians to "go and make disciples of all nations." i can assure you that hardly anyone follows that exhortation. suppose that this verse were to embody the ideology of "christianism." this verse is in the bible, and the bible is the holy book of christianity. if i were to condemn christianity for being "christianist," you may not chastise me for hastily generalizing all of christianity.

the confusion here arises from the fact that, by definition, a christian doesn't have to follow every word written in the holy book of christianity, even though that's counterintuitive. he may choose to "interpret" it differently, he may reason himself into rejecting it, or he may just be plainly ignorant of that verse. but we know this already - we, as western civilizations, routinely criticize christianity while sparing all of its members.

dondon's ignorance is great and terrible

i challenge you to show me that you know better! but really, try harder. like, seriously, based on the absolute absence of anything substantial in your posts, if my ignorace were attila, your ignorance would cause any despot in human history to genuflect in deference.

Edited December 15, 2014 by dondon151

[Nightmare]

so should i be disciplined for being "seriously offensive" and spreading "misleading information?"

There's a difference between an offhand comment that makes a blanket statement about the entirety of Islam and a much more tactful post that elaborates on why Islamism is not good, and I'm not sure why you want to ignore that. And for the record, I'm not trying to split hairs here, even if my phrasing makes it seem that way.

[Irysa]

dondon, I don't believe Islam, or any religion/idealogy is above criticism. And I also think that it's relevant to raise questions when there are occurances like this.

But Chiki does have something of a history of being rather...insensitive shall we say. I don't despair over it, as I don't know he reasons he tends to act as such. But I don't think SF was ever marketed as a completely open space to say "anything" you want and invoking Godwin's Law rarely goes down well in moderated spaces.

EDIT: Going to PMs

On the main topic, I was chatting to an Australian friend about this and he mentioned how apparently the news is a total mess right now, unverified information is flying around everywhere. Someone almost got beheaded, possibly 3 bombs planted across Sydney, etc. I really hope nobody dies, this is really awful.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Irysa

[dondon151]

dondon, I don't believe Islam, or any religion/idealogy is above criticism. And I also think that it's relevant to raise questions when there are occurances like this.

But Chiki does have something of a history of being rather...insensitive shall we say. I don't despair over it, as I don't know he reasons he tends to act as such. But I don't think SF was ever marketed as a completely open space to say "anything" you want and invoking Godwin's Law rarely goes down well in moderated spaces.

i think his wording could be improved, but i definitely did not react negatively to it the way almost everyone else did, and i wasn't confused by the meaning of what he said (unless he thinks otherwise). i'm also fairly certain that he has a target marked on his back.

and frankly, if he didn't post, i probably would have posted something similar, with equally little elaboration and a caricature of an american gun nut thrown in.

[Parrhesia]

maybe people could use this as a place to discuss the siege of the Lindt Cafe, Martin Place, Sydney, AUS, while perhaps making a seperate topic to make generic, ignorant, bigoted statements about religion, cheers

[dondon151]

maybe people could use this as a place to discuss the siege of the Lindt Cafe, Martin Place, Sydney, AUS, while perhaps making a seperate topic to make generic, ignorant, bigoted statements about religion, cheers

did you even read my posts

i mean what is there to talk about regarding the siege anyway

wow, that sucks, hope no one gets hurt, get the bastards who did this, this wouldn't have happened if australia had legal concealed carry, what's the motive behind the hostage situ---

oh, right, can't talk about that, my opinion is nuanced and not mainstream, so it's ignorant and bigoted. cheers!

Edited December 15, 2014 by dondon151

[Raven]

he's really not implying that.

How else should I take "It's not a coincidence that Islam is response for all of this violence throughout the world nowadays"?

[Parrhesia]

did you even read my posts

yes, which is why i want them out of this thread

[Irysa]

I'll take it to PMs with dondon, sorry.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Irysa