FE6 HM LTC V1 - Completed in 133 Turns

[Yojinbo]

Does Lilina specifically have to kill throne manaketes in order to contribute towards the LTC goal? Can't you have her take care of other manaketes like the ones that block your way here and there?

[Irysa]

Well who else is going to kill them?

Throne Manaketes are all, with the exception of the 2nd and 5th Thrones, not along the direct path of movement. That means it costs extra movement for anyone else to kill them. Lilina costs the least movement to kill them because she can keep running as many tiles as she can directly forward instead of having to actually move up to the Throne. That's kind of the whole point. It wouldn't make things any easier if someone else did that instead, because now instead of having the problem of "I can't get enough units up far enough to kill the Bridge Manaketes in this double seize without running out of Staff uses", I just divert the problem to not being able to kill the Throne Manakete.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Irysa

[Yojinbo]

I dunno, there's gonna be units that will inevitably fall behind over the course of the chapter where it doesn't really make that much of a difference whether they have to take a detour or not? IIRC Zeiss, Yodel and Fa never actually got further than the 3rd throne area in dondon's run so without the 0% growths resctrictions you might be able to have somebody strong enough take care of throne manaketes who isn't needed on the front line. Who do you have to have in a specific position on turn 6 except your Durandal user, Roy, your Warper and Lalum?

I don't know how strong Fa can become but if she's capable of ORKOing/crithaxing throne manaketes you may wanna consider making use of that option?

Edited December 31, 2015 by Yojinbo

[Irysa]

It looks like I've failed to explain this adequately.

For a 7 turn, it's really not that bad to just progress at a steady pace. The actual problem is executing the double seize, which is neccessary for a 6 turn. The point is that Roy, Lalum, Lilina and someone else have to be transported by Staff uses in order for a double seize to occur (because they basically need an extra turn's worth of movement in order to actually reach their targets), and I need at least 1 Warp on Roy to get him to the 7th throne from the 6th. This totals out to more staff uses than I have left. If Saul got to Purge then that would mean I would only need to transport 3 units by staves in order to execute a double seize, which makes the 6 turn perhaps feasible by freeing up 1 Warp.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Irysa

[Yojinbo]

Do you have no Rescue Staff uses left at that point? When are you using them?

Edited December 31, 2015 by Yojinbo

[Irysa]

Read the post w/the staff uses on the previous page.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Irysa

[ruadath]

Alan can't kill Devias in one round unless he's got 16 strength (level 10). He also can't pull crit. Also if the maps were shorter Alan wouldn't reach D Swords in time.

Just to entertain the idea a little, Lance can pull 1% crit if he was trained instead of Alan (note that Alan still has to be prioritised for early EXP to pull crit on the Fighter in Chapter 3 for the 5 turn, so that probably means Lance can't get to a high enough level anyway...) but he can't kill Leygance in one round on the next Map, since he'd need 19 strength to ORKO or 20 skill to pull crit (not happening in incomplete recruitment), meaning he'd need 2 rounds of combat. It might be possible to get Lance an extra turn to fight Leygance though.

If you gave a Cavalier more bosskills then Shanna wouldn't have enough skill to 1% crit Henning for the 8x 4 turn (not that she'll make it to A Lances for the Silver Lance anyway in tighter TCs)

The Cavs and Shanna do like 5 to 7 damage against C4 Cavaliers, so even if they could pull crit (extremely hard without the Slim Lance beacuse of doubled HM bonuses) they can't OHKO them.

Sorry for bringing this up again, but what about super-rigging Chapter 1? If you mash start at the beginning of the chapter (don't allow any additional RNs to burn) all of the fighters except for a couple near the boss spawn with 1 Luck. Then if you rig a crit-kill for Alan each PP and let's say 2 crits (1% each, not easy but not impossible) each enemy phase, you could easily get him up to level 3 before the end of the chapter, perhaps even getting reasonably close to level 4 (I haven't done any testing), in additional to a good amount of Sword WEXP.

EDIT: In fact, if you wait until Merlinus talks about burning the castle, it's even better, with all the fighters except for the 2 by the boss getting 0 or 1 Luck (and mostly 0)

I'm not sure how to address the Shanna issue.

Edited January 22, 2016 by ruadath

[Irysa]

I've redone Chapters 8 to 9 with various adjustments made to accomodate for later goals.

These can be broadly summed up as ;

1. Building Lilina x Astol support. This reason for this is slightly complicated (credit to Gradivus for the initial ideas). A 3 turn of C21 seems plausible right now, but it limits the amount of Boots Lalum can use, which as far as I can tell, restricts C22 to a 2 Warp, 1 Rescue 3 turn, and negates a C23 Staffless 2 turn. However, with this support, a 2 Warp 0 Rescue clear appears that allows Lilina and Lalum to consume extra Boots for C23 and C24, as Lilina can attack Zephiel from the side with her Bolting crits instead of needing to be near Roy at the door to Zephiel. This support builds pretty quickly, requiring only 15 turns. I've built 8 so far and the next 2 Chapters are very slow and easy due to Geese and Echidna, so getting another 7 before 22 should be simple. For comparison, Roy x Lilina B (which doesn't seem like it's strictly necessary anymore, but I'll still aim to get it) is currently at 2/15.

2. Saul spams Barrier more. Currently I have 2 remaining uses going into C10, and most of the extra Barrier uses were preformed in C8 instead of Mends. Because I am currently aiming to try to 1 Turn C14x with a 22 Mag Saul, Saul must be promoted by C11 in order to grind in the arena for this to even have a chance of happening. Unfortunately, having a lvl11 Saul for C11 seems to be impossible, so whilst Saul easily reached lvl10 with the previous Staff allocations, this will let him reach lvl10 during C10 instead of at the end of it, which means he can Promote and use Physic a few times to get a little more EXP. Frankly, I'll need all the EXP I can get to pull this off anyway so every little helps.

3. General improvements (reliability/exp gain/weapon distribution). Various tweaks were made to get a few characters a few extra rounds of combat, and to avoid awkward Enemy Phases. Notably, Chapter 8's opening with Shanna tanking two Archers and needing to be hit by one was entirely revised. Also, I hacked an extra Iron Bow in at Chapter 8 and deducted its cost from my Funds. In the complete run, this will simply be purchased during either Merlinus's or Chad's Armory visits in C2 or C4 respectively. The reason for this is because Shin needs to be fed EXP in order to secure the Sacae route, and his Short Bow is better off sold due to it's high value.

More detailed information (RN burns, etc) can be found in the description for the videos.

C8 v2

C8x v2

C9 v2

EDIT: Shanna promoted at 12.06 EXP, meaning she gained 1106 EXP before promotion. Listing this for my own convenience.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Irysa

[Irysa]

Almost a year later I finally did Chapter 10!

7 Turns

Gonzalez and Geese provide a comfortable turn floor, which is important to get Lilina going. Really, the whole map is just an EXP optimisation fest. I used a trick on Turn 4 EP to lure a Mercenary to attack Lilina instead of Shin or Sue, via having her equipped with a single use Fire Tome. Enemies treat units who have a weapon that would break in combat as having no weapon at all. Then that Mercenary puts her into KO range for the enemy Fighter (who is relatively inaccurate), then after Lilina kills him she gets out of KO range from the Ballista due to her levelup. Some of the waterwalking for support building for Astol and Lilina was cute too I guess.

[spoiler=EP Stats]
Turn 3
Lilina 21 Hp
38 Hit, 18 Dmg
69 Hit, 12 Dmg
(60 Hit, 10 Dmg) - Ignores Lilina unless the Merc hit her.

Turn 4
Lilina 21 Hp
66 Hit, 11 Dmg
34 Hit, 13 Dmg

[spoiler=Large RN Burns]
Turn 1
Shanna Arrow L5D3 Cycle (DRLUx62)
Shanna Arrow L5D3 Cycle (DRLUx62)

Turn 3
Shanna Arrow R5D3 Cycle(DLRUx23)
Shanna Arrow R5D3 Cycle(DLRUx81)
Shanna Arrow R5D3 Cycle(DLRUx54)

Turn 4
Shanna Arrow D5L3 Cycle(LUDRx35)
Shanna Arrow D5L3 Cycle(LUDRx33)
Shanna Arrow D5L3 Cycle(DRLUx322)
Shanna Arrow D5L3 Cycle(DRLUx172)
Shanna Arrow D5L3 Cycle(DRLUx254)

Turn 6
Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle (URLDx88)
Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle (URLDx46)

Turn 7
Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle (URLDx198)

Edited March 2, 2016 by Irysa

[Colonel M]

No lie, I dropped my jaw a bit when I saw the level up screen for Tate. Holy wow at that Def lol.

Good stuff though. Keep it up.

[Yojinbo]

Is there any specific reason why you're dumping Exp into Roy at this point? Is it just because there's nobody else that can make use of it?

Glad to see this back either way. Really missed watching videos of this run.

[General Horace]

(note I haven't watched everything but...)

why don't you just hack everyone to have 100% growths? It saves a ton of time and I don't think there's any point in not doing it if you're just gonna rig a perfect level for everyone everytime anyway. I get some people like things that can be done within the scope of the base game but this really isn't that realistic.

plus you get to buff karel to 200% worth it

Edited March 2, 2016 by General Horace

[Espinosa]

(note I haven't watched everything but...)

why don't you just hack everyone to have 100% growths? It saves a ton of time and I don't think there's any point in not doing it if you're just gonna rig a perfect level for everyone everytime anyway. I get some people like things that can be done within the scope of the base game but this really isn't that realistic.

plus you get to buff karel to 200% worth it

The run gets to be authentic this way ("replicable on console"), and he would need RNG abuse to survive enemy phases or get the desired outcome otherwise, such as with Thany early on.

Some perfect levelups are impossible if you're proccing, like, double crits in one round of combat, dodge unreliably or accumulate the levels on enemy phase.

[ruadath]

The run gets to be authentic this way ("replicable on console"), and he would need RNG abuse to survive enemy phases or get the desired outcome otherwise, such as with Thany early on.

Some perfect levelups are impossible if you're proccing, like, double crits in one round of combat, dodge unreliably or accumulate the levels on enemy phase.

I definitely agree with this statement about authenticity, although we should note that the number of RNG states that the game has is on the order of 1 billion (bounded above by 2^32, which is approximately 4 billion, and bounded below by like 100 million), so it is pretty difficult to find a scenario which can't be done on the console given copious amounts of time (it's not like anyone actually wants to burn something on the order of 100,000 RNs). And I don't think Irysa usually rigs a ton of crits on the EPs (if ever more than 1), so I doubt there is anything that he would want to do that he can't find an RNG seed for.

[Irysa]

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm going to need it for Chapter 11.

Is there any specific reason why you're dumping Exp into Roy at this point? Is it just because there's nobody else that can make use of it?

There's basically nobody else worth training yeah. My Exp priority list atm is Lilina > Saul > Sue > Roy > Shin > Shanna > Alan

Alan has to get to 22 Speed to kill Narcian, then 24 Speed to kill Heroes in C22. Shanna has to get to 26 Speed and use the C13 Body Ring to double Alucard with the Horseslayer, then be at 27 Speed for C18 to double the boss with a Killer Lance. These should be easy to reach. Saul is aiming to get to 22 Mag by 14x (Arena madness will ensue). Lilina needs 29 Mag to 4HKO (1 crit, 1 hit) Murdock with a Roy B Support, or 22 Mag to double crit him (basically there's a fallback if I don't get to 29 Mag in time, and the Skill req is pretty leniant due to the B support providing a lot of Hit and Crit). She does however need to get to 29 Mag to double crit Zephiel, which I will talk about later in the post.

When Miledy and Zeiss show up I will be training them too though, since they are quite useful in Chapters 21 and 22.

(note I haven't watched everything but...)

why don't you just hack everyone to have 100% growths? It saves a ton of time and I don't think there's any point in not doing it if you're just gonna rig a perfect level for everyone everytime anyway. I get some people like things that can be done within the scope of the base game but this really isn't that realistic.

plus you get to buff karel to 200% worth it

As I said the first time Belf asked this question, the thing is that I actually have to strategise a bit around the fact that I'm working with the fixed RN string. Like, I attempt to prioritise levelups to occur en masse during Player Phase so that I can actually manipulate the levelups without too many complications. If the game was hacked to 100% growths then I can be a lot more cavalier about it all. In this chapter, I had to have Lilina specifically ORKO that Fighter on EP4 with Elfire instead of having Marcus chip the Fighter down so she'd just KO him with Thunder, because the RN strings I found and attempted to align within 5 RNs for her round of combat with him all resulted in Lilina getting hit by the Fighter and dying, or else dodging the Merc so the Fighter didnt attack her. Moving it to 8 RNs fixed the problem. Previously I've had to sacc some perfect levelups in a few circumstances already in bosskills or low crit % environments as Espinosa pointed out. Overall, as you said it keeps it, "within possibility", and also about finding ways to realise what you want, rather than just having an idea and doing it.

Also, a big reason is going to be the arena in the next Chapter. Saul is ideally going to gain like 7 or so levels there, and I will very likely have to sacc some stats.

so I doubt there is anything that he would want to do that he can't find an RNG seed for.

You'd be surprised. This entire Lilina x Astol thing is actually a result of the fact there wasn't an RN string available to let Lilina crit Zephiel with a Cecilia support. With Cecilia Lilina can only pull 66 disp hit 1% crit, and she needs to double crit, and believe me, I looked pretty hard. There is a relatively easily accessible one early on for double critting at 69 disp hit 4% crit, which is what Astol can provide.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Irysa

[General Horace]

I see. Do you ever intentionally avoid gaining HP/Def/Res for AI manipulation? Or is it just not needed when pretty much everyone has good offence?

[Refa]

(note I haven't watched everything but...)

why don't you just hack everyone to have 100% growths? It saves a ton of time and I don't think there's any point in not doing it if you're just gonna rig a perfect level for everyone everytime anyway. I get some people like things that can be done within the scope of the base game but this really isn't that realistic.

plus you get to buff karel to 200% worth it

(I also haven't watched this run in forever)

I think it speaks to the planning of the run when you rig no more than necessary (well, necessary in the sense that you need to hit certain benchmarks but some quality of life stats along the way are fine as well). That's kind of lost if you hack 100% growths on everyone.

[Irysa]

I see. Do you ever intentionally avoid gaining HP/Def/Res for AI manipulation? Or is it just not needed when pretty much everyone has good offence?

I haven't purposely avoided it yet, but if it turns out Lilina getting to 11 Defence (equal to Marcus/Zealot atm) messes with AI manip in Chapter 11 then I will unrig her final levelup in Chapter 10 to not include defence and avoid proccing def for Chapter 11. The AI has a preference to attacking Roy (as seen in the Chapter 10 clear where a Steel Axe Fighter preffered to attack him when he had an Iron Sword equipped instead of Lance with an Iron Lance), so him being tanky helps there too. Higher defence juggernauts can also "stealth" through enemy lines whilst units like Lilina and Saul soak up EXP, or I use Marcus and Zealot to simply weaken enemies whilst still having Shanna running ahead.

Rigging defensive stats helps to actually reduce rigging in some areas though. Again, in this chapter, because Lilina procced defence on her levelup during EP4 the Ballista could no longer kill her, so I don't have to rely on her dodging a 60ish hit as well afterwards, and it is considerably more difficult/taxing to discover RN strings where proper dodges and hits occur as opposed to good levelups, because enemies use up various amounts of RNs when they decide how to move so it's difficult to search for the consistent dodge strings. There are also a bunch of circumstances in Sacae Warpskipland where Shanna and Roy have to not die/counterkill a bunch of Nomads on Enemy Phase, so their defensive paramters being very high helps with not having to find strings where people dodge everything/connect all the attacks they need to. Finally, I probably would not have realised the C3 clear was possible unless I had been adamant about rigging Shanna defence in Chapter 2, as it gets her out of OHKO range on the initial Archer, making some problematic enemies avoid getting int he way to attack Merlinus instead.

FWIW, I also originally thought I needed to rig res on everyone important in order to 2 Turn Chapter 23 with only 1 or 0 staff uses, but I forgot the Saint Staff cures Status mapwide, so that's not really that important.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Irysa

[ruadath]

You'd be surprised. This entire Lilina x Astol thing is actually a result of the fact there wasn't an RN string available to let Lilina crit Zephiel with a Cecilia support. With Cecilia Lilina can only pull 66 disp hit 1% crit, and she needs to double crit, and believe me, I looked pretty hard. There is a relatively easily accessible one early on for double critting at 69 disp hit 4% crit, which is what Astol can provide.

I'm assuming this is a Bolting double crit (or at least Zephiel doesn't get the chance to counterattack; if he does, then there is actually a seed that works out fairly early on at around position 4000 so this is not a problem). I'm surprised that this actually ended up being more difficult to find than I anticipated. Nevertheless I did find a seed for this that isn't "too far" away from the beginning, at RN position 43315:

11, 21, 0, 53, 35, 43, 0

So for those of you who don't know how to read this, this corresponds to a (17% hit, 1% crit) attack followed immediately by a (40% hit, 1% crit) attack. I haven't actually burned RNs in game to verify that this does occur, but I trust my RNG generating table, so I imagine this is there in case you want to use it. I can go and check if you want me to.

EDIT: In the likely event that Lilina levels up after killing him, the next 8 RNs (8 because the first one after the crit is burned) are:

26, 68, 11, 34, 48, 16, 29, 51

So if I'm doing this correctly, Lilina only procs Mag and Res after this. I can find something else if you really want me too, but I'm sure Lilina is super OP at this point and it doesn't matter (also if Lilina has already capped some stuff then this is also wrong).

Edited March 3, 2016 by ruadath

[Irysa]

FE6 doesn't factor in silencer, unlike FE7. That RN string won't work.

Her levelup wouldn't matter anyway because by that point she's basically capped in all relevant stats. Additionally there is not really any point in trying to find an existant RN string for a Cecilia x Lilina double crit since I only have to have Astol parked next to Lilina for 2 more turns as of now.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Irysa

[ruadath]

FE6 doesn't factor in silencer, unlike FE7. That RN string won't work.

Her levelup wouldn't matter anyway because by that point she's basically capped in all relevant stats. Additionally there is not really any point in trying to find an existant RN string for a Cecilia x Lilina double crit since I only have to have Astol parked next to Lilina for 2 more turns as of now.

If it doesn't factor in silencer, it's even easier to find. I had trouble finding 0s that were 4 spaces apart. RNG position 7851 (and on is):

72, 24, 0, 33, 76, 0, 51, 95...

[Irysa]

I must have skipped over that string when I was searching. Either way, like I said, it doesn't really matter, and in some ways it might be better this way, as Astol certainly has a lot longer to build C Support compared to Cecilia.

[ruadath]

That could very well be the case. My point wasn't that you should change your plans to accommodate this double 1% crit, but rather to demonstrate that in fact most things that you could possibly want to occur can in fact be found in the RNG, usually without even a ridiculous amount of RNG burns. I've only been searching withing the first 100,000 RNs for seeds, and its pretty much entirely certain that the first 10,000,000 don't contain any repetition. I imagine this kind of knowledge could certainly come in handy for other purposes later on (perhaps an LTC that exploited the rescue-death glitch?)

I must have skipped over that string when I was searching.

Or it could be a rounding error on my part. The second zero in that sequence corresponds to a value of 655, right on the border of 0 and 1 (65536/100). However, as far as I'm aware, FE6's RNG is skewed such that the 99 has a low chance of occurring, so this shouldn't be an issue since all of the borders should be raised slightly.

EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, it may very well be a rounding error, since 0 might be the "first number," and the cutoff might therefore be between 654 and 655. I'm too lazy to actually burn ~7500 RNs and check this for myself; surprisingly, the next double 1% crit occurs something like 30 RNs later, but the first hit is 67%, one too high for your situation. The next thing that works then is at position 23624:

16, 37, 0, 35, 61, 0, 5, 4...

which should definitely work.

Edited March 3, 2016 by ruadath

[Gryz]

I haven't purposely avoided it yet, but if it turns out Lilina getting to 11 Defence (equal to Marcus/Zealot atm) messes with AI manip in Chapter 11 then I will unrig her final levelup in Chapter 10 to not include defence and avoid proccing def for Chapter 11. The AI has a preference to attacking Roy (as seen in the Chapter 10 clear where a Steel Axe Fighter preffered to attack him when he had an Iron Sword equipped instead of Lance with an Iron Lance), so him being tanky helps there too. Higher defence juggernauts can also "stealth" through enemy lines whilst units like Lilina and Saul soak up EXP, or I use Marcus and Zealot to simply weaken enemies whilst still having Shanna running ahead.

Roy and Lilina are more likely to be targeted by enemies due to their class. In FE6, the AI uses the defender's class in their attack targeting. This mechanic also technically exists in FE7 and FE8 but it has no effect since the class lists were erased.

Not all enemies prioritize classes the same way (depends on their individual AI3 byte) but most enemies use this:

Unpromoted Lord: +10

Thief M, Thief F, Bard, Dancer: +15

All magic classes except Priest, Cleric, Troubadour: +5 (the staff-only classes will always get +10 no counterattack bonus)

In addition, many (but not all) enemies with bows and Aircalibur get +40 against flying classes, which is why they seem to "ignore" the Delphi Shield.

Class bonus multiplied by 0, 1, or 2 depending on AI3 byte (very few enemies use the zero multiplier). Final class bonus gets capped at 20.

[Irysa]

Thanks for that Gryz, that's really helpful.

9 Turns with everything thanks to Echidna, nothing special, except for Saul's 8 levels in the arena! Arena manipulating is such a goddamn chore, but the 14x 1 turn seems to be in reach now considering it should be relatively easy to get 1.5 levels or so in the next few maps. He also needs 13 Staff uses to A Staves but considering I'm waiting for Cath in 12 (due to Warpskipping 16 saving more turns) there will be plenty of time for that too. Lilina only needs half a level before I can bench her till I get the second Guiding Ring. Nomads have pulled ahead of Pegasus Knights on EXP right now too and should maintain as such. I'm deliberating on giving Sue an extra level or just promoting her at the start of Chapter 12. We'll see. Oh right, Lilina only needs 1 more turn for each of her relevant Supports now too.

I forgot to have Clarine do an extra Heal on Sue on the final turn, but I'm not going to rerecord for that. I'll get the EP stats and RN burns later, I'm burnt out.

EDIT: Other things to note; none of Lilina's crits were necessary, they were just lying around. The Shanna crit thing was because that was the earliest high level enemy available in the arena for her, and I couldn't be bothered to go through likely another 20 to find one where she didn't crit.

[spoiler=EP Stats]

Turn 4
Marcus 32 HP
24 Hit 16 Dmg
54 Hit 10 Dmg
50 Hit 10 Dmg

Turn 5

Lilina 27 Hp
24 Hit 17 Dmg
22 Hit 14 Dmg
58 Hit 6 Dmg 20 Crit

If Marcus got hit by both the Handaxe Fighter and the Steel Bow Archer then another Steel Axe Fighter would have gone after him.

Turn 8

Lilina 21 Hp
22 Hit 12 Dmg
22 Hit 10 Dmg
18 Hit 8 Dmg

[spoiler=Large RN Burns]

Turn 2

Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle (URLDx47)

Turn 3

Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle (URLDx17)

Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle (URLDx29)

Astol U3R2 Cycle (RDULx27)

Astol U3R2 Cycle (RDULx49)

Astol U3R2 Cycle (RDULx245)

Turn 4

Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle(URLDx21)

Turn 5

Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle(URLDx25)

Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle(URLDx160)

Turn 6

Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle (URLDx38)

Turn 8

Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle(URLDx17)

Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle(URLDx93)

Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle(URLDx59)

Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle(URLDx149)

Edited March 10, 2016 by Irysa