FE6 HM LTC V1 - Completed in 133 Turns

[Yojinbo]

Whether you turn off the battle animations or not has no impact on the gameplay of a chapter at all. Which weapons and items you are assigning to each unit does. If you add the preparation segment people who don't wanna see it can just skip it. But if you don't add it those who'd like to see it don't get the option.

I also read all the annotations in dondon's and Horace's LTC runs because I find them interesting. They increase the information density and give us a few glimpses at the player's thought process. I specifically remember, for example, how in Ch.13 of dondon's 0% run Noah had to dodge a very specific attack of a Wyvern Rider to avoid getting attacked by some Cavaliers later. Pointing out stuff like that is just something every LTC run should do because there's always gonna be somebody like me who cares about these details. If somebody doesn't care about it they can just ignore the annotation and continue watching. But I don't think you should withhold such things from people that do care about it.

[Irysa]

Whether you turn off the battle animations or not has no impact on the gameplay of a chapter at all. Which weapons and items you are assigning to each unit does. If you add the preparation segment people who don't wanna see it can just skip it. But if you don't add it those who'd like to see it don't get the option.

You're missing the point.

Animations on = more information such as hitrates that a person has access to that I may not be bothered to list entirely. You raise a fair argument that you can't just skip them as easily in the video, but it's raw information that is "valuable" in a sense, in the same way loadouts are valuable information.

I can list loadouts in notes without even having a prep segment that has the trading in it. Can you explain why having the information itself isn't satisfactory, and why you want to see the prep screen instead?

Edited April 14, 2015 by Irysa

[Yojinbo]

The information itself would actually be satisfactory for me.

[Irysa]

Alright, here's C6, 7, 8, and 8x loadouts. Bear in mind as I said before there's a slight inaccuracy in weapon uses since one extra Iron Sword use somewhere has to be used up in C2 for Alan to hit D Swords for C7 in time, and one less Iron Lance use, as I'll have to substitute an single Iron Lance attack for a Javelin somewhere (Shanna can use it up in replacement for an Iron Lance use in C4 somewhere since I can do lots of free trading during it) since I need an exactly 2 use Javelin in order to make the RNs work out in Chapter 7. Also bear in mind I have a tendancy to give units weapons they may not even use just for keeping my options open, and also to sate my weapon use OCD in spreading out weapon uses properly.

[spoiler=C6]

Roy Marcus Alan
40 IronSword 24 SteelAxe 19 Javelin
11 Rapier 16 HandAxe 14 Javelin
34 IronBow 38 IronLance 08 Javelin
14 Armorslayer 40 IronAxe 34 IronLance
03 Vulnerary 24 IronSword 34 IronSword

Lance Dieck Shanna

39 IronLance 25 IronBlade 35 IronLance

03 Vulnerary 24 SteelBlade 15 Javelin

30 IronSword 16 SlimLance

01 DoorKey 03 Vulnerary

03 Vulnerary

Chad Clarine Rutger

30 Lockpick 28 Heal 39 IronSword

03 Vulnerary 20 Heal 16 KillingEdge

20 Mend 03 Vulnerary

02 Vulnerary

Lott

20 HandAxe

28 IronAxe

19 Hammer

03 Vulnerary

[spoiler=C7]

Roy Marcus Alan
11 Rapier 18 SilverLance 14 Armorslayer
22 IronSword 16 HandAxe 28 IronSword
03 Vulnerary 20 SteelAxe 38 IronLance
02 Javelin 14 Javelin

Lance Sue Shanna

34 IronLance 30 IronBow 38 IronLance

24 IronSword 29 SteelBow 15 SlimLance

03 Javelin 22 ShortBow 10 Javelin

03 Vulnerary 03 Vulnerary 03 Vulnerary

Dieck Rutger Lott

33 IronSword 35 IronSword 20 HandAxe

03 Vulnerary 16 KillingEdge 28 IronAxe

03 Vulnerary 18 Hammer

02 Vulnerary

03 Vulnerary

Lugh Clarine Saul

20 Fire 24 Heal 14 Mend

03 Vulnerary 20 Mend 20 Heal

02 Vulnerary 02 Vulnerary

01 Goddess Icon

Merlinus

[spoiler=Chapter 8]

Roy Marcus Zealot
22 IronSword 20 HandAxe 45 IronLance
09 Rapier 28 IronAxe 38 IronAxe
10 ArmorSlayer 45 IronLance 19 SteelAxe
15 Fire 01 DoorKey 18 Hammer

04 ChestKey 01 DoorKey

Alan Lance Noah

18 Javelin 10 Javelin 15 KillingEdge

33 IronLance 32 IronLance 24 SteelBlade

28 IronSword 24 IronSword 32 IronLance

12 Javelin

Treck Shanna Sue

03 Javelin 16 Javelin 20 LongBow

34 IronSword 15 SlimLance 21 ShortBow

36 IronLance 30 IronBow

28 SteelBow

03 Vulnerary

Clarine Saul Wade

23 Heal 12 Mend

20 Mend 20 Heal

02 Vulnerary 15 Barrier

02 Vulnerary

14 HandAxe

[spoiler=Chapter 8x]

Roy Marcus Zealot
34 IronSword 30 SteelLance 46 IronSword
30 SteelSword 30 SteelSword 30 SteelSword
19 KillingEdge 32 IronLance 31 IronLance
25 LightBrand 38 IronAxe 17 SteelAxe

Alan Shanna Saul

28 IronSword 32 IronLance 11 Barrier

37 IronLance 08 Javelin 20 Mend

18 SilverLance 14 Heal

30 SteelLance 02 Vulnerary

01 ElysianWhip

Sue Clarine Astol

22 IronBow 20 Heal 25 IronBlade

24 SteelBow 03 Mend 15 KillingEdge

21 ShortBow 02 Vulnerary 24 IronSword

17 LongBow 03 Vulnerary

03 Vulnerary

Lilina

12 Fire

25 Thunder

20 Elfire

03 Vulnerary

Edited April 14, 2015 by Irysa

[Yojinbo]

You don't have to do that now. I just think it's information that should be added to the videos of the final run.

[dondon151]

Animations on = more information such as hitrates that a person has access to that I may not be bothered to list entirely. You raise a fair argument that you can't just skip them as easily in the video, but it's raw information that is "valuable" in a sense, in the same way loadouts are valuable information.

this analogy between animations and prep menu is invalid. animations display hit rates, but the viewer still has to look up the corresponding true hit rate and then do the multiplication to figure out a strategy's chance of success. the math is so tedious that i usually resorted to simulating 500,000 iterations of an enemy phase in order to approximate the chance of success. animations occupy a substantial amount of time and offer almost zero useful information because the information has to be processed to yield something useful.

the prep menu lets the viewer track movements of particular items between units, the convoy, and the armory/shop. this is useful information when the player is using limited resources, and even long prep menus don't take more than a minute and a half.

[Irysa]

You don't need to calculate the exact true hit and all to make a reasonable assessment of a unit's chances of death being "likely" or "unlikely" or "0" though. The numbers still indicate a lot of useful information constantly in that respect.

The prep menu offers no more helpful information than separately listing starting loadouts, unless someone is desperate to know exactly which 30something use Iron Lance is being used by each particular unit. The exception would be the C20x Throne manip that Raven alluded to previously.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Irysa

[Espinosa]

The only use would be if somebody decided to replicate the entire run, wouldn't it? Good luck imitating all the RN burns in this one though (most likely it'd be useful to the creator alone).

[Irysa]

As long as the actual item uses match up, it does not matter, even if they were attempting to replicate the entire run.

I'm happy to make my entire movement notes public, and the vbms as well in case anyone ever DOES want to work on it. I have it all saved.

[Gradivus.]

random note, I see a 23 2-turn with no rescue and 1 warp. like, roy does the dragon slaying work by receiving a dance on turn 1, is warped 1D of brunya on turn 2, and lilina is danced into support proximity (3 tiles, right? might be misinformed) to bolting crit her. http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3962/rd6e24wb_png.htm (obviously, orange = lalum, red = roy, light blue = lilina and dark blue = saul) I guess those status staff sorcs can be a big pain though, idk how well roy dodges those if he needs to and whether you can get a restore user to him.

[momogeek2141]

Miledy/Thany staff bait may work. Or if Irysa somehow has a two use wyrmslayer that Roy can break after attacking the dragon then the status guys won't target him. If he has no other inventory that is.

[Lord Raven]

random note, I see a 23 2-turn with no rescue and 1 warp. like, roy does the dragon slaying work by receiving a dance on turn 1, is warped 1D of brunya on turn 2, and lilina is danced into support proximity (3 tiles, right? might be misinformed) to bolting crit her. http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3962/rd6e24wb_png.htm (obviously, orange = lalum, red = roy, light blue = lilina and dark blue = saul) I guess those status staff sorcs can be a big pain though, idk how well roy dodges those if he needs to and whether you can get a restore user to him.

You can get a Restore user to him pretty handily, but that chapter is really stupid. I needed to warp something like Lance + Roy there, and put Lance on a forest tile while Roy had durandal so Lance could attract all the enemies (and Roy could OHKO Wyverns so the Druid doesn't heal them), get the Druid to move in a weird way, and finally clear a path for Lilina to finish off the boss with Bolting (1 Warp 1 Resue). I think Irysa's not gonna have the issues with status staffs that I did, cause my best resistance value that wasn't Saul or Lilina was something like 14 from SoS Roy or Thany (and Roy was using Durandal anyway so...) which lead to a 130-40 staff hit rate before distance penalties were applied (so its 100% no matter what). Could probably just Rescue Lilina with Roy, dance Roy, and then drop them/Lilina in the middle of a bunch of enemies and hope your other 12-14 move units can arrive and kill the dudes in front of the throne. Probably only needs to kill the Manakete, because you can dance Lilina pretty easily and have her take care of a Druid.

I'd like to note that this is contingent on everyone having the resistance to take all these status staffs. I think a lot of the issues I faced will be trivial when Irysa plays the maps.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Irysa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77d2ru1fioE&feature=youtu.be

5 Turns.

4 Turns is possible (in fact, easy) with either Shin or Fir, but unfortunately not both, but at least I've shaved another turn. The last turn can be adjusted a bit for some improved reliability if Shanna goes left instead of right on the previous turn, as she and others can weaken the boss for Alan/remove enemies in the way, but getting the Killer Bow and extra EXP makes it worth sending her to the right.

I'm fairly sure that any method used to get more Support gain between Roy and Lilina would sacrifice a significant amount of EXP. This may be something I have to come back and fix but the next three chapters should make it easy to reach B support.

Finally, I think I'm going to hack myself an extra Iron Bow, pretending I bought one in Chapter 2, and redistribute uses between them accordingly. This is because Short Bows sell for an absurdly high amount so it's more cost efficient to simply avoid using them and buy Iron Bows instead. Shin will likely not be promoted, because his terrible Bow Rank makes it nearly impossible for him to reach S Bows in time for Endgame in a playthrough this fast, so I'd rather keep the extra Orion's bolt for more money. I will however, continously dump EXP into him to secure the Sacae route.

There are zero chances of death on this map because Shanna can just Vulnerary on Turn 4 after trading if she actually got hit by any of the Archers on previous turns (everything else can barely scratch her). Roy takes practically 0 damage from everything since I've rigged his Def so much as well.

[spoiler=Large RN Burns]
Turn 2
Saul Arrow D3R2 Cycle (RUDLx39)

Turn 3
Shanna Arrow R6D2 Cycle (DLRUx109)
Shanna Arrow R6D2 Cycle (DLRUx134)

Turn 5
Shanna Arrow R6D2 Cycle (DLRUx108)
Shanna Arrow R6D2 Cycle (DLRUx536)
Shanna Arrow R6D2 Cycle (DLRUx73)
Shanna Arrow R6D2 Cycle (DLRUx192)
Shanna Arrow R6D2 Cycle (DLRUx134)

I'll get the loadout listed up later.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Irysa

[Yojinbo]

I agree with not promoting Shin and selling the Orion Bolt instead. Even after Sacae unpromoted Shin can still be useful with the Killer Bow if you ever actually need him to do anything. If Clarine had a better base staff rank you could also leave her unpromoted and sell an additional Guiding Ring.

[Lord Raven]

Yeah I only had to use Shin as an extra 8 move unit for like one or two chapters.

[Irysa]

Something of a necro, but I'll explain myself.

The reason this run went on hiatus was because of the Chapter 24 6 turn problem. Basically, the whole point of why I started this run was to try to use Lilina to save turns, that's really what it boils down to. Unfortunately, despite the fact she does save Warp/Rescue uses over the course of the playthrough, the fact is that she simply cannot save enough to actually achieve a Chapter 24 6 turn. Or rather, I give up, I've spent like half a year intermittently going back to this map and periodically trying to come up with different strategies with a full maxed movement, capped stats entourage of units in order to achieve a 6 turn, and I firmly believe I need at least 5 total staff uses to do it. I will explain why in detail;

1. In order to 6 turn C24, Roy must seize a Throne every turn, and must seize 2 Thrones in a single turn once.
2. There are two main opportune places in order to preform this double seize - The 2nd and the 3rd Thrones on turn 2, or the 3rd and 4th Thrones on turn 3.
3. Lilina can kill Throne Manaketes at range with Bolting crits, which allows for a huge amount of strategic flexability, as Lalum and Lilina can generally get rescuedropped every turn and still be in range in order to help Roy, and someone can generally kill any other stray Manaketes in the way as they move towards Roy. Roy on a Throne can generally handle enemies in the Throne Room on EP.
4. During a double seize, Lilina will need to be Staff transported forward in order to actually reach a Throne Manakete. The optimal use I can see is having her kill a Throne Manakete on the previous turn, then having someone tradeequip her to Forblaze, then Warping her in front of the next Throne Manakete so she kills it and clears the room out on EP, leaving her free to Bolting crit the subsequent one on the next turn.
5. However, because every entrance bridge towards the next Throne room is always blocked by a Manakete, Lilina herself is not enough to clear Roy's path during a double seize. Purge is unfortunately a Rank A Tome in this game, not B, so with the current strats, Saul cannot help in dealing with these enemies (It looks like it's just about possible for him to reach the 4th Throne Entrance blocking Manakete with Purge with a single rescuedrop though). This means someone has to actually kill these Manaketes at 1 or 2 range, and this is basically impossible during a double seize without a Staff use, there are just too many tiles to cover.
6. During a double seize, Lalum must dance Roy after he has seized instead of dancing him to help him seize. As such, additional effort (staff uses, rescuedropping) have to be allocated to Roy in order that he can reach his first and/or second seize targets. The third throne's relevance in double seizing is notable here because it is the only Throne to Throne that Roy can cover in 15 tiles by himself, which allows for other units to do important things like clearing the way for Roy or rescuedropping units forward.
7. Lalum cannot have more than 13 Mov, there are not enough free turns for her to use any more Boots. During a double seize involving the 3rd Throne, this means that Lalum is going to have to be Warped in order to Dance Roy whilst he's in range of the 3rd or 4th Thrones.
8. If doing the 2nd to 3rd double seize, Lalum has to somehow not die to a reinforcement Manakete from the 2nd Throne on turn 2. This is just barely possible if she uses a Goddess Icon in Chapter 11 (lol) and I rig the reinforcement to roll low on skill, because then a level 6 Lalum can face 99 hit from the Manakete. Still disgusting though.
9. It is a dead cert that at least one Warp is going to be required on Roy or Lalum in order to get Roy to seize the final Throne, either Roy is warped over the gap himself or Lalum is Warped so Roy can be danced in range of it. This is because the distance from the 6th to the 7th throne is exactly 30 tiles, which means Lalum has to be obscenely far up in order to be able to Dance Roy on turn 6. There is just enough flexability for the other thrones because the amount of tiles Roy has to traverse is usually around 20 or less, so Lalum herself does not need to be quite as far up, and rescuedrops can suffice to make sure she can keep dancing Roy. Ideally, Roy is somehow Warped on Turn 5 after seizing the 6th Throne in order to kill Jahn on Turn 5 EP, then seize on Turn 6.
10. That's a total of 5 neccessary Staff uses in order to transport people around, and even with some revised Staff allocations (thanks to Gradivus for these), it's still only possible at absoloute best to have either 3 Warp 1 Rescue or 2 Warp 2 Rescue at Chapter 24.
11. Even ignoring all that, I'm pretty sure too many units have to be at 15 mov for it to happen anyway due to a lack of money and turns in which to use Boots.

So...currently, it looks like there are 3 ways to think about trying to utilise extra saved staff uses.

1. 1 turn 14x with 2 Warps. Saul has to reach 22 Mag in order to do this. I initially thought this would be impossible, but I think it might be just barely within reach if I rig him lots of high EXP battles in the arena in Chapter 11. He gets 42 EXP from using Warp the first time on the bosskiller in 14x, so that helps too.
2. Get Saul to A Light to use Purge in order to cut down on Staff uses in 24. Raven only got Saul to about B in his run, but with arena use and appropriate rigging of long arena battles, this might be possible?
3. 3 Turn Chapter 21 with 2 Warp 1 Rescue. This might be doable, but it really fucks with potential turns in which to use Boots, especially for Lalum, so this looks hard.

Note that these aren't all mutually exclusive, so a 1 turn 14x and 3 turn 21 could both happen. I don't think a 6 turn of 24 is compatible with either of these though due to the high staff uses required, so unless both alternatives turn out to be dead ends, it looks like a 6 turn of 24 is just not worth it.

As such I am looking primarily at the 14x 1 turn right now. In order to reach 22 Mag, Saul has to get 15 levelups. Saul is currently at 9.09 EXP at Chapter 10 in my run. Whilst level 10 before promotion will be easy, I don't think it's possible to get to level 11. If I revise some of my current strategies in Chapters 8 and 8x to use up the Barrier Staff entirely (currently have 11 uses), Saul only gains 55 more EXP, which would put him at 9.64. Chapter 10 is 7 turns, so not long enough for me to get 136 EXP in a single map just via staff EXP. Even I had 7 more magical Barrier uses out of thin air, Saul would have to then go dodge 17 times in order to make up the deficit. The only way I can see to reach level 11 by Chapter 11 would be to get the Unlock Staff in Chapter 6 (that's 90 EXP right there), which basically forfeits all of the treasure on the RHS. That's quite a lot of money, and the Short Bow really helps Sue in Chapter 7 (1% crit to 11% crit on enemy mage blocking Roy's path to seize on turn 4). I don't think that's worth it (especially because I think Saul can only actually get 2 uses out of the Staff anyway which only amounts to 36 more EXP, still short!), but I'll think about it I guess. At the least, a mid map promotion in 10 lets Saul squeeze a bit of EXP (even if it's halved) out of things like Physic so it would still mean Saul could promote on Turn 4, then get 33 EXP from Physic uses. I guess if I save 1 Barrier then Clarine could be set to levelup on Turn 1 and get HP so he can Physic her there too, but that means Saul would need an extra use of Mend to levelup in Chapter 10 anyway, so he'd get 1 less Physic use there, so it's kinda moot.

Saul can get 15 total rounds of arena combat in 11 if he is ferried over the wall on turn 1, then Lalum is transported over on turn 2. I don't know enough about the arena algorithm right now to determine what the maximum amount of EXP obtainable per battle is, so if anyone knows (hi dondon) please tell me so I can make a precise calculation. Currently, if I just say "50 exp per round" that's 7.5 total levels from the arena (also he has to somehow not die over those battles without anyone healing him and still get fantastic levelups, augh). A level 10/7 Saul still has to get 3 more levelups from Chapters 12, 12x, 13, 14, and the first Warp in 14x, so that's at least being 10/10.58 at the start of 14x (or 11/9.58).

Btw here are currently projected staff uses and turncounts.

01   -  4 turns
02   -  5 turns
03   -  5 turns
04   -  7 turns
05   -  3 turns
06   -  7 turns
07   -  4 turns
08   - 13 turns
08x  -  5 turns
09   -  5 turns
10L  -  7 turns
11L  -  9 turns
12   -  7 turns
12x  -  4 turns
13   -  5 turns
14   -  3 turns
14x  -  2 turns 1 warp (1 turn 2 warp?)
15   -  4 turns
16   -  4 turns 3 warp
16x  -  2 turns 1 warp
17S  -  2 turns 2 warp
18S  -  2 turns 1 rescue
19S  -  2 turns 1 warp
20S  -  3 turns 1 warp
20xS -  1 turn  1 warp
21   -  4 turns 2 warp (3 turns 2 warp, 1 rescue / 4 turns 1 warp?)
21x  -  2 turns 1 warp
22   -  3 turns 2 warp (3 turns 2 warp, 1 rescue - neccessary if the previous C21 adjustments are made)
23   -  2 turns 1 warp 1 rescue (2 turns 0 warp or rescue - neccessary to have enough staff uses left over to 7 turn 24)
24   -  7 turns 1 warp 1 rescue (6 turns 3 warp, 1 rescue? - assumes Purge!Saul / 7 turns 1 or 2 warps - assumes the C21 3 turn and possibly the 14x 1 turn)
F    -  1 turn

Edited December 31, 2015 by Irysa

[ruadath]

I haven't been following this run particularly closely (mostly because all the progress happened before I joined the forum), but just curious as to whether or not you had to spend any additional staff uses due to your requirement to recruit all characters. Would the 6 turn be possible if you dropped that requirement?

[Irysa]

One warp is used to recruit Zeiss. So it might. An incomplete recruitment LTC would likely be using the Rescuedeath glitch which can also be used to cut turns and staff uses too.

However getting characters to the required benchmarks in a HM playthrough in order to actually get the min TCs is already very tight, and if one were to clear maps like Chapters 4, 6, 9, 10, 11, etc faster than they are currently cleared, then you likely would drop turns later on due to not having high enough stats on Saul/Shanna/Sue/Alan/Lilina anyway.

Even the Chapter 7 4 turn is basically going to be impossible without the EXP buffer Chapters 4 and 6 provide in complete recruitment.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Irysa

[Espinosa]

Even the Chapter 7 4 turn is basically going to be impossible without the EXP buffer Chapters 4 and 6 provide in complete recruitment.

Even with the level of RNG control you commit yourself to?

[Irysa]

Alan can't kill Devias in one round unless he's got 16 strength (level 10). He also can't pull crit. Also if the maps were shorter Alan wouldn't reach D Swords in time.

Just to entertain the idea a little, Lance can pull 1% crit if he was trained instead of Alan (note that Alan still has to be prioritised for early EXP to pull crit on the Fighter in Chapter 3 for the 5 turn, so that probably means Lance can't get to a high enough level anyway...) but he can't kill Leygance in one round on the next Map, since he'd need 19 strength to ORKO or 20 skill to pull crit (not happening in incomplete recruitment), meaning he'd need 2 rounds of combat. It might be possible to get Lance an extra turn to fight Leygance though.

If you gave a Cavalier more bosskills then Shanna wouldn't have enough skill to 1% crit Henning for the 8x 4 turn (not that she'll make it to A Lances for the Silver Lance anyway in tighter TCs)

Edited December 31, 2015 by Irysa

[ruadath]

To entertain the idea a little further, would it be possible to give these guys more EXP by either rigging additional low crits for them in strange places and/or putting them in dangerous positions on EPs and then rigging massive EXP gain + good levels?

[Irysa]

Have you played FE6 HM dude.

The Cavs and Shanna do like 5 to 7 damage against C4 Cavaliers, so even if they could pull crit (extremely hard without the Slim Lance beacuse of doubled HM bonuses) they can't OHKO them.

C6 EXP would be doable that way beacuse the Soldiers are all frail defensively, but considering that the min TC for C4 is 3 turns, and in the CR 7 turn they get at least 1 kill every turn after the first, that's a LOT of EXP you have to somehow come up with out of thin air.

EDIT: fwiw, beamcrash's Shanna didn't get to Silvers for Henning in 8x either, but since it was NM Henning a Steel Lance sufficed. That won't fly in HM.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Irysa

[ruadath]

Yeah, I have lol.

And sorry, just asking if you knew what was possible with maximal RNG abuse, not trying to offend you or anything.

[Espinosa]

Is there no chance to have multiple units attack an enemy that a single unit can't ORKO? If Alan can't kill the boss, can Marcus and Zealot chip in, perhaps?

I'm sure a lot of turns are still saved as a result of not waiting for the likes of Rutger, Gonzalez and Cath, anyway.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Espinosa

[Irysa]

Is there no chance to have multiple units attack an enemy that a single unit can't ORKO? If Alan can't kill the boss, can Marcus and Zealot chip in, perhaps?

He was asking for rigging large EPs to make up for the lack of turns to train units early. If they can't net those kills solo on EP then it won't really matter.

As for the Marcus/Zealot thing, the reinforcements entirely block the area around the throne so you'd need both around to rescue Shanna out the way/kill a Soldier so they could chip...except that Hand Axe Marcus can only do 3 damage at max to Devias (critting at 1 damage with a Hand Axe), which only relaxes Alan's strength requirements by 1 level (and again, Alan is not getting to D Swords in time anyway). Marcus could critkill the boss himself but that's a bad allocation of bosskill EXP (bound to have repercussions later). Plus you don't get the barrier staff if both Paladins aren't dedicated to getting it (unless you feel like trying to find a way for Treck to survive getting ORKO'd by a Mage with like 90 hit who doubles him, then 3 other enemies including a Wyvern whilst he's rescuing Zealot), which means Saul can't get enough EXP to promote in time to reach the later mag benchmarks.

I'm sure a lot of turns are still saved as a result of not waiting for the likes of Rutger, Gonzalez and Cath, anyway.

You probably only save like 10 turns from doing incomplete recruitment. The real turn shaves are from the rescue death glitch, which can cut like 30 turns off.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Irysa