FE6 HM LTC V1 - Completed in 133 Turns

[Irysa]

It might save boots uses in 23, that's the main thing I'm thinking about. I will have a bit less money than dondon given I have to skip some arena use throughout and don't get all the treasure treasure in 16.

[dondon151]

Not 100% no. I know a 15 mov instead of a 14 mov Roy can do some crazy shit like go from the second throne to the third in one turn unaided, but I don't have enemy stats for the manaketes there so I don't know if Lilina can pull crit on them without the Roy support, which is IIRC what beamcrash was able to do on NM. I'm making the assumption that like most differences between NM and HM, they have too much luck to pull disp crit on without a support with Bolting.

lilina maxes out at 14 crit and the first throne manakete in my chapter 24 HM save has 11 luk. all throne manaketes are L13. even if you took variance into account, i'm pretty sure that you can pull displayed crit on all of them without roy support.

[Irysa]

If that's the case I do actually think a 6 turn is possible then if I have 1 Warp 1 Rescue. Lilina can save exactly 1 turn after all! Now I just need to somehow figure out how to use enough Boots in the remaining chapters...

I'm probably going to slightly revise some of my earlier chapters to get a few more Alan support points with Roy before I go forward anymore though. I can get an extra 4 in Chapter 4, then Chapter 8 can also be modified a little for an extra 4 or 6. I'm honestly not sure it will matter (given I'll likely have to end up having Roy kill Jahn) but if it turns out being helpful/useful I suppose I should work on it since Alan won't exactly be near Roy for that many more turns from now on. LilinaxRoy B also has to be worked on in the Isles as it will be neccessary for the Brunya kill with the single Rescue Staff use I have hypothesised right now.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Irysa

[Irysa]

Okay so my numbers were kinda wonky and Lord Raven has had the opportunity to put a few ideas of mine into practice now (although not to steal his thunder, he has some very impressive strats of his own) so now we have a pretty good idea of what we're working with.

Here are my mapped min TCs for a complete recruitment/no deaths run of the game, and Warp/Rescue uses.

01 - 4 turns 07 - 4 turns 12 - 7 turns 16 - 4 turns 3 Warp 20xS - 1 turn 1 Warp Final - 1 turn
02 - 5 turns 08 - 13 turns 12x - 4 turns 16x - 2 turns 1 Warp 21 - 4 turns 2 Warp Total - 134 turns 17 Warp 2 Rescue
03 - 5 turns 08x - 5 turns 13 - 5 turns 17S - 2 turns 2 Warp 21x - 2 turns 1 Warp
04 - 7 turns 09 - 6 turns 14 - 3 turns 18S - 2 turns 1 Warp 22 - 3 turns 2 Warp
05 - 3 turns 10L - 7 turns 14x - 2 turns 1 Warp 19S - 2 turns 1 Warp 23 - 2 turns 1 Warp 1 Rescue
06 - 7 turns 11L - 9 turns 15 - 4 turns 20S - 3 turns 1 Warp 24 - 7 turns 1 Rescue

(note there is a possibility for a 5 turn of C9, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that)

Turns out you don't need a Rescue to 3 turn C22. This means there's a leftover Rescue use. However, I don't believe a 6 turn of 24 is possible with two Rescues, we need at least one Warp.

So, there are two ways to go from here. Find a way to convert one Warp use into a Rescue use to have a leftover Warp for the hypothetical C24 6 turn with one Rescue one Warp. Or, find a place where one Rescue can save a turn.

Unfortunately, the only two maps that feasibly offer either of these options are C17S, C18S and C21. C21 feels like the more obvious choice, but if a turn can be shaved here via an extra Rescue use then it has knock on effects in Lalum not having the mov neccessary to pull off the Rescueless 22 (she doesn't get an extra turn to use Boots). That means we end up running out of Rescue in C23, leaving us without a Teleportation Staff to 7 turn C24. I don't believe a 7 turn of C24 is possible without at least one Teleportation Staff (or suicides), so we'll end up dropping a turn, turning it into a zero-sum game. Dead end.

The Sacae maps may offer a remote chance of Rescue being able to replicate a Warp...but currently I can't see a way for this to happen without an 8 Mov Rescue from Clarine! Not using the C14 Guiding Ring on Lilina means she won't hit the benchmarks for endgame, so that's a dead end as well.

I think this may be the limit unfortunately, unless there is a way to 6 Turn C24 with two Rescues. At the least, Lilina does help significantly in 23 and 24, but she should be broadly replicable. I'll train her anyway, and I shouldn't have to go back to try to minmax the Roy/Alan support so I'm unconcerned about that now.

EDIT: Looks like I spoke too soon. I've done some more tile counting and 1 Rescue can replace 1 Warp in Chapter 18S just barely, but Lalum may end up having the world's worst enemy phase in order to pull this off. 133/132 Turns looks possible now, but a 3 Turn of C21 with 3 Warps vs a 6 Turn of C24 with 1 Rescue 1 Warp...we'll have to see which is more feasible.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Irysa

[Lord Raven]

I just did the Chapter 18S thing, even though I told you I'd log off. There comes a point where I do understand what's going on in the class, but my professor is just a gigantic fucking asshole. Anyway, I'm about to head to bed and I don't have it recorded, but I have the RNs ready.

Basically, Lalum doesn't have to go through the enemy phase from hell because Miledy can rescue her and Zeiss can do whatever from there, and it works out beautifully regardless because Miledy only gets attacked by one Nomad who has zero chance of killing her. Thany has to survive a *ton* of shit on EP from like 45% short bows, and has to use a Body Ring (unless you want to use a suspend restart) to ORKO the boss. In my case, she needed to get some EXP so she could get a str level up from the boss because she ends up 1 Str short of an ORKO (in the subsequent chapter). But I managed to actually get everything I needed to get this sorted out, now I just have to redo Sacae (which is... very easy, the only chapter that requires any effort is Chapter 20, where I playtested and can get an extra Blue Gem in comparison to before).

Chapter 21-23 took me around an hour or two apiece, I just gotta figure out my RNs now.

Here's turn 2 (ignore the grayed out Thany, this was a VERY raw run):

Edited April 9, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Gradivus.]

I see a way to cut off 1 warp from C21, http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3952/9jg6y56u_png.html

the light-blue path is shanna; she is danced, drops a paladin (yellow path). the paladin is given roy on turn 2 by an 8 mov flier (green) and shanna is given saul by another 8 mov flier (red), and drops him on turn 2. orange path is lalum of course. saul warps the paladin into the boss area, and he drops roy, 2RKOes murdock etc. Shanna can go shopping on both turn 3 and 4 which might come in handy (allows lalum to chug 2 boots on C21?).

EDIT: @Lord Raven I think if you play C20S hyperoffensively towards the RHS with 3 Mounts (Sue, Shanna and the Paladin that doesn't get warped), you can also get the guiding ring and sell it (boots!shanna obtains it). Given that you figured out 21-23 already, you probably don't need it though.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Irysa]

Good observation. Though, that Aircalibur Sage is kind of an annoyance. I suppose he can be Berserked by Yodel or something though.

However, two Warps allows for a Turn 2 Secret Shop visit, which allows Lalum to use 3 pairs of boots in 21, then a 4th in 21x. Lalum needs 4 Boots uses for the Rescue-less C22 3 turn clear, and has no spare turns in Chapter 22 in order to use them. Essentially, we're just exchanging a Warp use for a Rescue use, which doesn't really help all that much given that we've already swapped the C18 Warp for Rescue, and the C18 adjustment is far easier to implement. Unless it turns out that two Warps helps more in a C24 6 Turn than one Warp one Rescue, I'm not sure this is that helpful, since I'm inclined to believe that having both in tandem will be more beneficial.

We'll see though.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Irysa

[Lord Raven]

EDIT: @Lord Raven I think if you play C20S hyperoffensively towards the RHS with 3 Mounts (Sue, Shanna and the Paladin that doesn't get warped), you can also get the guiding ring and sell it (boots!shanna obtains it). Given that you figured out 21-23 already, you probably don't need it though.

I got the Blue Gem :) (You don't even really need Boots Thany technically, although she's the best candidate for the first pair). Because I had to use a Body Ring on Thany I will actually need it, otherwise I'm exactly one boots short of what I need without selling it (which is around 28). Edited April 10, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Lord Raven]

This just in: you need two warps from two high move/high magic warpers to 6 turn Chapter 24 or something ridiculous. It's ultimately a net turn saving of zero.

If anyone wants my save to mess around with (1 warp 1 rescue) then I'll provide it.

[Irysa]

Yeah I spent some time on it too and I agree with Raven - 1 Warp 1 Rescue unfortunately doesn't cut it for a six turn, even with a Bolting critspamming Lilina. You definitely need a second Warper, along with a second Warp use, and it is still pretty vague on if it's doable. I don't think the Rescue Staff will help, but there is the potential for Clarine to be able to use it with the Chapter 20S Guiding Ring as well. I did have a 6 turn plan vaguely outlined but this manakete just gets in the way and ruins everything.

So basically, my current estimated min TC is 134, which is assuming I save a Warp in 14 for Lilina's guiding ring via Lalum dodgerigging so Sophia can pick it up safely on turn 3, and then use that Warp in 17 for a 2 Turn. If I cut another turn from Chapter 9 (might be doable), then that's 133.

132 may be possible though. With Gradivus' suggestion for saving a Warp in 21, we'd have 2 Warps left over for 24. The three turn of 22 is still possible without a 4 Boots Lalum as I outlined previously (you just need an extra Rescue staff use), and a 1 Rescue, 1 Warp clear of 23 is possible thanks to Lilina so we don't need 2 Rescues for a two turn.

Niime or Jodel are the only other real candidates for being the second Warper since staff rank raises too slowly for Elen or Clarine to be able to reach it in time. Jodel has worse stats, but he can use the Saint's Staff which is highly important in Chapter 24, so he may be prefferable to Niime. However, there may not be enough money in the game within our turncounts for all the boots required though, since you'll have to deploy at least 3 foot magic users in Saul, Niime/Yodel, Lilina at 14 mov, and still have enough for a 15 mov Roy, a 13 mov Lalum (at least...), and various 14 to 15 mov mounts. I've gotten a bit more money than Raven has but he was still very tight on funds so I don't think I can squeeze that many more boots out of the game when I'm forced to skip significant chunks of treasure throughout.

FWIW, Lilina would still be hypothetically important for this given that we need to save a Rescue Staff in 23 (and she facilitates this because of being able to kill Brunya at 10 range) in order to be able to save a Warp in 18 so we can have 2 Warps for 24. In a 133 turn clear though, I think she can be ignored, since you can just use 2 Rescue 1 Warp in 23 for a two turn, 1 Rescue in 22 for a three turn, and save the Warp in 21 for the 1 Warp seven turn clear of 24. So unless I (or someone else, I'm not sure I can be bothered orz) figures out that 2 Warp 6 Turn...Lilina can be evaluated as "probably not a big deal". Definitely very helpful in 24 though.

EDIT: There is also the EXTREMELY UNREALISTIC proposition of attempting to get Saul to 22 Mag before 14x, in order to 1 turn it. That way I can just 7 Turn 24 and still have 133 total TC.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Irysa

[Irysa]

5 Turns.

Shanna has to connect a 2% Silver Lance critical in order to 5 Turn. Other than that, there isn't much to say about this chapter since it's pretty simple, and there's just a bunch of EXP feeding going on otherwise. For some reason there's a Fighter with a Door Key on the map, which I stole. Additionally, I built some more RoyxLilina since B Support is pretty easy to reach even in LTC and is required in order to oneshot Brunya with Bolting in C23 (she has too much Luck otherwise).

There are zero chances of death on this map.

[spoiler=Large RN Burns]
Turn 2
Shanna Arrow L6U2 Cycle (ULRDx44)

Turn 3
Shanna Arrow L5U3 Cycle (URLDx61)

Turn 4
Shanna Arrow D4R4 Cycle (RUDLx830)

Turn 5
Clarine Arrow R6D1 Cycle (DLRUx20)
Clarine Arrow R6D1 Cycle (DLRUx679)

[spoiler=blooper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVjos8y8nrA&feature=youtu.be

EDIT: Also I may as well start giving credits now, I kinda forgot to earlier.

C1 - dondon151 for noting the 4 turn was possible first (at least, first I'd heard of it), General Horace for helping me optimise to avoid a janky crit.

C2 - General Horace for EXP optimisation for Shanna.

C3 - I came up with the opening myself, but upon reviewing his videos later, beamcrash was the first to 5 turn this map (on NM). Yojinbo for EXP optimisation.

C4 - My own strat (nothing special)

C5 - dondon151 for the door trick enabling a 3 turn.

C6 - My own strat (nothing special)

C7 - My own strat. Lots of general advice from all thread participants though.

C8 - Broadly based off Lord Raven's C8 but I heavily optimised it.

C8x - Lord Raven and dondon151 for alerting me to the 5 turn.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Irysa

[Yojinbo]

Not related to this video but you should show the chapter preparation segments of each chapter in the final run for completion sake imo.

[Lord Raven]

I imagine that shouldn't be an issue cause he probably has them in notes, but Preparations screens are pretty tedious to get good videos of and nothing really happens in them. The most important ones are like 21 and any other chapter you're selling shit in (which I dispersed throughout my run so I could get boots uses ASAP).

[dondon151]

i agree with yojinbo, y'all need to suck it up and record some prep screens

[Irysa]

I don't really have any plans to add commentary or w/e so the value of a prep screen is lower. Notes would probably suffice. I would also have to actually slow down the menu process to make stuff more visible so trades don't happen superfast. Currently I'm recording vbms at 50% game speed in order to make the actual chapters go by faster in the videos since my execution is not great, and any real inherant value in the video is in the positioning of units.

If people want everything to be visible then I'd have to go back to normal recording speeds, but those would significantly increase the runtime of videos. I don't think the actual raw content here is nearly as interesting to warrant that.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Irysa

[dondon151]

I don't really have any plans to add commentary or w/e so the value of a prep screen is lower.

how does this make sense...

[Irysa]

Prep screens are good for buffer time for commentary for a chapter and outlining the map. If someone wants to know loadouts before a chapter starts, I can simply put them in notes and not increase the runtime unnecessarily. It's not like the trading is important, it's what they have. This isn't a speedrun so showing everything matters less than the information being available.

Like, what's actually compelling about trading items around in a prep screen visually? Especially since the run is so heavily tool assisted, so it's not even like I'm trying to improve or show off menu execution.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Irysa

[dondon151]

i sure as hell didn't do prep screens for commentary buffer

putting things in notes means that people won't read them

[Irysa]

I didn't say you did them for the commentary buffer. I believe your reasoning was along the lines of "I used to speedrun the game and you have to show everything in a speedrun" or something to that effect, and I don't view it the same way.

As for not reading notes, that's the viewer's own choice. If they want the information, it's there, if they don't want it, they can ignore it. Same mentality for listing RN burns and EP stats.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Irysa

[General Horace]

i dont think the fe6 prep screen adds any value, you can't do anything on it that can't be figured out once the chapter starts. No statboosters, no selling items; just equipping units, and well, you see their inventories during the chapter anyway. The only reason I watched dondon's prep screens are because of the commentary.

unless i'm forgetting something obvious.

EDIT: I agree with dondon on the rn burn dealie, I'm not sure anybody really cares how many times it happens, they know why it's happening, and that should be enough. I could be wrong on this matter, some people might care.

Edited April 13, 2015 by General Horace

[dondon151]

As for not reading notes, that's the viewer's own choice. If they want the information, it's there, if they don't want it, they can ignore it. Same mentality for listing RN burns and EP stats.

i mean you might as well not bother recording the run at all and just write down the actions; if a viewer wants the information, it's there! but you know that if you were to say "hey i LTC'd FE6" and didn't provide videos, people who were otherwise going to watch the videos are going to ignore the notes.

This isn't a speedrun so showing everything matters less than the information being available.

Like, what's actually compelling about trading items around in a prep screen visually?

what's compelling about including the several-hundred-RN-long burns? why do you need to include them other than to provide evidence that you weren't outright cheating like beamcrash was? of course they are super boring and don't add anything of value to the run, but including them at least makes the product appear less half-assed.

i dont think the fe6 prep screen adds any value, you can't do anything on it that can't be figured out once the chapter starts. No statboosters, no selling items; just equipping units, and well, you see their inventories during the chapter anyway

the prep screen adds value because it removes the need for the viewer to figure things out once the chapter starts. isn't that valuable?

irysa doesn't even have to record any strategies by this logic; he can just drop a final turncount and some clues so that somebody else can eventually figure it out. or he could just leave a screenshot for every turn. asking for prep menu to be recorded is not asking for much.

Edited April 13, 2015 by dondon151

[Irysa]

i mean you might as well not bother recording the run at all and just write down the actions; if a viewer wants the information, it's there! but you know that if you were to say "hey i LTC'd FE6" and didn't provide videos, people who were otherwise going to watch the videos are going to ignore the notes.

Not really, because it's much harder to interpret and understand information that simply outlines every movement. Loadouts are far easier to grasp and acknowledge, and don't require the same kind of audiovisual feedback.

what's compelling about including the several-hundred-RN-long burns? why do you need to include them other than to provide evidence that you weren't outright cheating like beamcrash was? of course they are super boring and don't add anything of value to the run, but including them at least makes the product appear less half-assed.

The only reason is to show that I'm not outright cheating like beamcrash was. I forgot to speed them up in a video or two but overall I do agree that they are very superfluous, which is why I speed them up.

For me a lot of this is about trying to see what is actually possible within the game. And the fact is, there isn't going to be an exact RN string for everything I may want to do, so even if hypothetically something is possible, it may not be realistically possible (maybe hours of RN burning would prove fruitful, but whatever). That goes in contrast with Belf's suggestion of just "hacking everyone to 100% growths", because to me that cheapens it and makes it less enjoyable and interesting for me to partake in the effort. I'd never be forced to have to deal with RN strings not cooperating with what I may or may not want, I don't have to worry about trying facilitate player phase levelups whenever possible, etc.

The run already has plenty of arbitrary restrictions and preferences imposed on it. I don't want to rely on low % crits, and will only use them when I have no other way to secure a particular turncount or achieve an objective. I could quite realistically just have units get 1% crits as much as possible, but it isn't for lack of effort that I don't do it, I don't do it because I don't find it interesting from a strategic standpoint.

If it's in your opinion that the run is half assed because I'm not showing prep screens, then all I can do is respectfully disagree (with bias ofc).

EDIT: I agree with dondon on the rn burn dealie, I'm not sure anybody really cares how many times it happens, they know why it's happening, and that should be enough. I could be wrong on this matter, some people might care.

I think he's talking about the video content and you're talking about the side listings. I include them on the offchance someone else wants to use them, or may want to marvel at how long some of them are or something. It takes no real effort in order to list them, since they're in my notes anyway, so I don't see harm in giving the numbers.

the prep screen adds value because it removes the need for the viewer to figure things out once the chapter starts. isn't that valuable?

If people want the information, I will provide it though. However the first bunch of chapters are going to have like, 1 less Iron Sword use and 1 more Iron Lance use since I'll have to compensate for Alan not chucking a Javelin C2 to get a kill, so atm the information would be slightly inaccurate.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Irysa

[Lord Raven]

I have all of them recorded, but some chapters it's kind of a drag because you're just shifting one or two items around (although these are relatively quick prep screens so it's not that much extra work).

Chapters like Chapter 20x I think it's absolutely critical because it shows how to burn the secondary RNG to manipulate the throne. 21 too, so you can show that you're taking items en masse to sell them (and this applies to Chapter 18). A bunch of others it's mainly shifting formations around which people see anyway.

I don't think it's a big deal, it doesn't hinder most viewers cause I don't think people really care that much, it's just something extra for those who do care. I am not someone who cares one way or another, if only because I find item management extremely straightforward and I watch videos to see formation and movement management, but someone like Yojinbo and dondon may want to see more detail.

also fyi (for your credits thing) my Chapter 8 wasn't too different from dondon's and my 8x was primarily dondon's ideas and I just put it to the test, but that's just a relatively minor point.

Also,

EDIT: @Lord Raven I think if you play C20S hyperoffensively towards the RHS with 3 Mounts (Sue, Shanna and the Paladin that doesn't get warped), you can also get the guiding ring and sell it (boots!shanna obtains it). Given that you figured out 21-23 already, you probably don't need it though.

My bad I misinterpreted this, I didn't actually need the extra guiding ring because I actually had an extra pair of Boots (that I just unloaded onto Lance to not a whole lot of benefit) but I can confirm this is possible. You need Thany to rescue someone and drop them on Turn 2 near the door, and someone can open the door 8 tiles from the throne (the Warrior and Fighter are easy to clear out with like Lilina or Shin or something). Then bam, Blue Gem and Guiding ring. Edited April 13, 2015 by Lord Raven

[dondon151]

so i think that the LTC community has a tradition of putting out videos that are extremely subpar in terms of quality and i'm trying to push for a focus on improving that. it doesn't seem like anyone else shares this interest.

[Irysa]

dondon, think of it it this way. I could also turn on the animations so the player can see all the combat statistics and hitrates at all times, for the same reasoning. I choose not to do this for time conservation reasons, but I list hitrates and data I think are important. I'm not ashamed to admit that I don't have the tenacity to calculate this stuff exactly, but regardless, it barely takes any effort to record with animations on, it just takes longer and gives more information. However, a lot of people don't care about that kind of explicit information at all times, and as such, it's better to accomodate it outside of the video.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Irysa