Mitsuki

I'm actually replying to Elie! I wasn't holding back thoughts (because it was thoughts more than reads) because it's fun, but just because posting about them wouldn't accomplish anything. I already explained this before. I said someone else because Refa was going to reread and maybe I'd agree with something he'd bring up, so I wanted to tell him that I could support his read. I didn't want to lynch the any of the lynch candidates (Kirsche, Darros, FFM) at that point, either. Again, I already explained this. I thought someone could find useful my winconspec (I've done rulespec before and yeah it was useful) so I posted it. I didn't have that much conviction on Marth in the first place, I actually wanted to vote for Kirsche but I prefered to wait and see if he'd do stuff D2. I don't see how I contradict myself anyways, I think telling people that their townreads are bad without explaining why is a good scumtell and not something town would do. Why is meta bad? I always have meta in mind, and I think it's useful because every person will do different things, and some things done by a certain person are scummy but done by another they aren't. (For example: Manix tunelling isn't scummy, someone else tunelling might be). I don't see how I invalidate my townread on Refa by giving more reasons on why he's town. Also, I wrote like 3 lines on why Refa was town, I don't thik that's too much. Anyways, why would giving a townread like that be scummy?

The whole point is that I don't think he faked believing in the vigshot. Darros should probably do something...

Why? I don't know. But he assumed it.

@Manix: I can see town not putting a lot of effort anyways if they were not motivated about the game in the first place, like I think Darros was. From his reaction I'm sure he thought he was dying: if he was scum in that situation he'd just claim scum and let out some rage. Why bother to give reads?

@Manix: I explained my thoughts on why the reaction was townie here.

It wasn't based on that only, I know. I never tried to say it was.

@Manix: answer my question (here)

@BBM: Well, it's worth a try.

I have. I just didn't know if you sent the missile when you did the reaction test and it was announced when it was impossible to stop it, or if you sent it afterwards. (Now that I've checked detonation time I know it's the latter) I don't get why you think Darros is scum based on his reaction to being vigged, though. All you've said is that you're unimpressed, but I think that's town being demotivated. Why do you think it's a reaction coming from scum?

Maybe I'll reply to stuff after all. a) Good play =/= scum play, specially in early phases of the game. I think it's scummy how you're saying bad play is scum play. b) It might be, specially early in the game. First post is from a defense against my case and second is a reads post. I think it's scummy how Marth implies that he thinks his reasons for suspecting Scorri (and Darros) are weak when it comes to defending himself against a case on him that calls him scummy for using those scumtells, and then he says he was very confident about one of those reads. After reconsidering Marth I still think he's scummy.

Also @ Manix: You should definitely stop the vigshot, it's so obvious Darros is town from how he reacted. I don't think that lack of motivation was scummy since it's obvious he believed in the shot, if he were scum in the same situation he wouldn't have tried to give some reads. Or is it unstoppable now?

I don't really feel like replying to most of what Elie said but: No, it was a reply to something SB said.

Sorry if it seemed like I thought sheeping was scummy. I didn't but I needed to mention you were sheeping to explain my points. I don't think this reply has much to do with what I was originally saying other than the bit where you say you had a scumread on Eury you never commented on. I don't really know what to say. I mentioned you getting a townread on BBM. I still see a lot of questions and such that are just telling other people that their suspicions are bad; while I think town could comment like that as well, they'd focus on scumhunting. To me it looks like you're focusing on that to look like you're doing more than you are.

Nobody said that, but I also misunderstood it in a similar way.

This is my first time losing a post and I never thought it'd be so awful. Manix's vig makes me think there's no harmful 3rd this game. There's still a harmless 3rd though. ##Unvote Marth's replies to me make me unsure of my read, it doesn't seem like something scum would reply. I want to take some time to reconsider my read (which wasn't that strong anyways). ##Vote: Kirsche I know I was townreading him but I reconsidered. I don't think the stuff I brought up to read him is actual townie stuff, but more like stuff Kirsche would do because of being Kirsche. It wasn't indicative of alignment. Kirsche implied several times that he was holding off stuff to coment, which is not the stuff he's voting Darros on because that's a sheep (Darros was null to him here and then he sheeped the emerging cases on him here). He's never comented on anything nor given reads based on those thoughts he wasn't saying. This makes me think that he actually never had those thoughts on the first place and just said he had to seem more active and contibuting than he was. He hasn't given any original scumreads himself and has just sheeped other people on FFM and Darros. He's also asked a lot of questions that he hasn't followed up on, and those haven't lead to any reads. The only contribution to the game he's done is the BBM townread, which is not much considering that he's posted a fair amount of times. Someone mentioned that Kirsche asked others to give thoughts on people while not giving those himself, I'm also sheeping that. I think Elie is town. I haven't checked his posts much but his motivation on scumreading me seems genuine, as well as his tone. Replies on next post (or maybe not if I'm too lazy). But since Elie is back, please reply to the question I asked at the bottom of this post.

This really feels like another D1. a) What does one thing have to do with the other? Reads based on tone is something town can do as well, even if it's weak. Saying reads based on tone/mutliple townreads are bad isn't a scumtell at this point of the game. b) In this case the reasons you had to say it's conveinient for scum are too weak. "Picking sides helps scum make stronger cases" is ok but town can also get genuine reads on that, so it's not really a scumtell. What I mean is: there might be a correlation between scum and picking sides but there's also a correlation with town and picking sides, so it's not a good way to distinguish one faction from the other.

lol Flavourspec is dumb and NNR said so, I'm quite sure my winconspec is right.

I think SB was killed by an SK and that doc protected correctly. Wincon's wording makes me think that in top of the scumteam there's an SK and a harmless 3rd; wincon says town wins when they neutralize all the hostile factions, which means there's more than one antitown faction but also a non-hostile faction. Assuming this is true, do you guys think it's 10/2/1/1 or 9/3/1/1? I think it's 10/2/1/1 but I'm bad at this so I need opinions from others. ... Now that I think of it, it doesn't need to be an SK, right? But I still think there's some sort of harmful 3rd. The response didn't look townie to me, it looked genuine; it didn't seem like Darros was faking that he didn't believe what he was doing is scummy and I wanted to consider that reaction to see if it was indicative of towniness. Upon thinking I think that scum wouldn't have that kind of reaction often and I'm not sure my Darros suspicion is that strong (as well as the cases on him, for what I remember). Now I want to see more from him to decide on if he's scummy or not. I consider him null. I don't like this. Marth doesn't bother to explain why we shouldn't townread people, and just generalizes that all the townreads are bad. It looks like scum fearing PoE and trying to spread suspicion to other players who people are clearing. Similar. Also there are other players with a ton of townreads who only got one scumread (me included), why is this indicative of alignment? Considering the amount of content D1 I think this is normal. Also BBM scumread Kirsche at some point. This seems like not looking at the whole picture and context for the sake of scumreading someone. I also think that suspecting people on them basing their reads on tone is not strong, specially at this point of the game or before. Not much's happened, and town can read people based on tone as well if they think it's relevant. It seems like Marth is deliberately choosing to interpret it as scum behaviour because it's convenient for him. Picking sides seems just a way to make the whole "basing their reads on tone" thing seem stronger. Just because something could be convenient for scum doesn't make it scum behaviour, and when you take this premise in mind Marth's reads based on picking sides don't hold anymore. ##Vote: Marth @Kirsche: Thoughts on the game?

@BBM: I said that because I thought maybe Refa will bring up something I agree with. I wanted to show him that in case I agreed I'd support the idea. Also Darros. Darros' response to me looks genuine, I'd like to wait to see more from him and think about stuff I said. I think I'm going to keep my vote on FFM.

I might be ok with turboing someone else.

@NNR: Poliwrath and Darros are the same person. ##Unvote ##Vote: FFM Darros lynch is not happening and I don't want Kirsche lynched. @BBM: I prefer lynching someone lurking/inactive than someone contributing. It's probably stupid because there's not anyone I think is scummy other than Darros so there's not room to compare but well.

It doesn't make him scummier but it makes him a better lynch candidate because on top of being scummy he's a lurker/inactive. I don't know if Darros is around or not but I've been busy for the entire duration of D1 and I've still found the time to post.

I just woke up and I'll have to catch a train later. I'll be here ~2 hours before the deadline unless stuff happens. Well, I said you were probably town because I thought Marth was scum based on Refa's report and your reaction didn't make sense as a scumbuddy, which is why I said you were town. Unless Marth is scum my read is not valid. I'm outing my other thoughts since Manix asked for it and I think it's a good idea given the state of the game. There's no point in not outing them now, either. I think some of the stuff FFM has done could be scummy but knowing his meta is always being lynched doesn't make me want to lynch him today. I see how he could be doing what he's doing now as town, that's why I said he's null. I prefer to wait and see if he does something that gives me a strong read since he's always somehow scummy. I think Kirsche is town based on attitude, I don't think it makes sense for scum to be like that (caring about the game while not caring about what people do, it's a bad explanation but I don't know how to word it better) and it reminds me a lot of his attitude on that EM game I was scumbuddies with Darros and Kirsche whispered me asking for results. I could see me being wrong about this, but I don't want to lynch him. Manix is probably town as well, he's trying to keep the game moving and seems to have genuine motivation on it. I also had a gutread on SB that made me think he could be scum, kind of. But he's not doing anything scummy so I don't think it's relevant. I'm ok with a lurker lynch, but I'd rather lynch Darros. He hasn't even posted for a day and a half nor replied to my case. Darros >>> lurkers > FFM > everyone else > Manix > Kirsche > Refa

I have more thoughts on the game but either I want to wait to see more from people since I can see how town could do x/it's gut or it's not conclusive. I'm also waiting for replies. (I don't know why you expect much more from me considering that my D1s are usually worse than this one's being but well) Not explaining by itself isn't the scumtell, the thing is that in addition to that there seems to be no townie conviction and what Darros said is just pointing out a typical scumtell that I don't see how applies there. Also I saw Darros do exactly that to case me on EM when we were scumbuddies (he said that my vote was OMGUS and that OMGUS was scummy) so there's also that.

I just didn't consider that it could be a reaction test. I can't give reasoning on why I didn't think something that never crossed my mind. Why are you asking FFM and me only and not Manix and Poly? They also voted for Marth.