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It might not be that useful for a Ninja (except for the magic shurkien or for 3rd route Levin Swords), but if we assume Awakening-styled growth inheritance to the kids (not confirmed) that means he'd be able to marry a magic user and pass down a magic growth that isn't pathetic; basically, he'd be able to marry either a physical or magical woman and still give decent growths to any resulting kid.

I have to agree that "The DanMan" has a point about the shipping aspect of FE being done better in other series or genres. I'm suspecting that part of the issue is perhaps a lack of mainstream awareness of these other series or genres that might handle the shipping in a manner that might satisfy shipping fans more. I mean, Fire Emblem isn't necessarily fully main-stream itself yet (although its grown much larger than its original niche), but its from a highly familiar company (Nintendo & Intelligent Systems, with Nintendo giving familiarity) that there are probably a lot more people who are aware of it than say, obscure visual novels, outright dating sims, etc. So I suspect that they flock to Fire Emblem because its something that they're actually aware of that satisfies their shipping desires. I myself, I admit, enjoy doing shipping in Awakening and look forward to doing so in Fates, but it was never my #1 reason for playing the games; my #1 reason is that I like strategy genres (RTS, turn-based strategy, strategy RPG) and decided to give the series a try; Awakening was the most accessible entry for me to do so when I decided to try it out, in the sense that I had a 3DS already and Awakening was still widely available in retail circulation. The shipping stuff that I happen to also like is just a bonus alongside the strategy stuff that I actually play the game for. Its not the best quality shipping stuff, but I'm not playing primarily for the shipping stuff either, so that's okay with me.

This is a point to consider… of course, it only spins into a net benefit in circumstances where the lowered growths/bases/caps relative to say Hinoka!Matoi allows for the triggering of Prodigy's +4 damage in excess of the damage that is lost. Although even in the case where damage would be lost, it is a mitigating factor, of course. For either of them, it will probably be nearly universally active against enemy mages, so its basically a question of which physical classes it triggers against. Luna has inferior personal growths to Hinoka in almost all stats except for SPD (tied growth) and DEF (superior growth; 45% vs. 35%). She also has 2 points lower in Strength caps that Hinoka does: -1 vs. +1. Luna actually doesn't have any magic penalty at all, but with a 5% personal growth she's not likely to be capping anytime soon barring ridiculously extreme RNG blessing. Although assuming growths function like Awakening's (this still need to be confirmed), the fact that there would be a /3 factor that averages the father, mother's and child's growths comes into play…. over 29 levels (10/0 -> 20/0 -> promote to 20/1 --> 20/20), we'd expect Luna's lower growths to cost Matoi a total of 5.316 stat points on average, albeit with the losses distributed across the various stats. (Luna!Matoi would have 261.667% growths if Awakening growth inheritances apply, while Hinoka!Matoi would have 280% growths) As for their mods for stat maxing (mainly applicable after Eternal Seals & grinding): Hinoka!Matoi +1 Str, +0 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +2 Res Luna!Matoi -1 Str, +1 Mag, +2 Skl, +1 Spd, +0 Lck, +5 Def, +0 Res The -1 Str may actually help in triggering borderline cases of Prodigy for Luna!Matoi, or let her use classes with higher base strengths and still trigger the bonus against other capped units, including many mirror matches against others in her same class), but it hurts her in cases where she would have still gotten the bonus anyways. She does get +1 SPD in mods from Luna!Matoi, which is notable mainly because of SPD being a valued stat. Her +1 MAG mod is mainly useless to her, but it could be interesting for passing to a kid…. although one will not likely be maxing such a Kanna's magic stat for a long time, as Kanna doesn't have an impressive magic growth to begin with and Matoi always will tend on the low side for magic (15% personal as a starting point). She has the same total number of points in defense mods (only relevant once capped, not likely in the main game), but distributed differently… +5 DEF as Luna Matoi vs. +3 Def and +2 Res as Hinoka!Matoi.

Oh yeah, and Trueblade also has a +10 inherent crit bonus too, so if he was with Luna, he'd want to end up as that to benefit his wife that way, as she loves having husbands or pair-up partners who have boosted crit rates thanks to her personal skill. So he might want to pick up some Hero skills, but ultimately return to Trueblade as a finishing class. Well, I need to seriously get to work now, so I'll drop out of the conversation now.

You know what, other than having to build up weapon ranks, Subaki x Luna could make Subaki a fairly tanky Hero… he has Swordfaire access (although depending on practicalities you might not pull out too many level 15 promoted skills in one file), which in principle can be transferred over to Hero. Hero has HP and SKL growths that complement his bases…. it also has SPD growths, which could help his speed at least stink less than it already does…. And he could combine potentially (as another option) Flowing Strike + Perfectionist + Axebreaker to really mess up enemy axe users… and Sol would actually help restore Perfectionist at times…. and Luna could likewise use a Flowing Strike + Axebreaker + Swordfaire combo if she wanted to… There's also the issue that Luna has better availability than Hinoka in the 3rd route, even though growth wise Hinoka is the superior redhead mother for Matoi, so you'd be able to get started on Luna x Subaki long before Hinoka is even recruited. EDIT: Now that I think of it, the chance of a crit is calculated independently for every single hit of Astra, so he'd be able to do a nice job of fueling Luna's Competitive Personal Skill, that is if anything survived the Astra…. he has high skill growth and a +2 mod, which works out to a higher chance of activating it, and on top of it high skill gives an improved crit chance…. then, every time it activates, it has five chances to provide the crit Luna needs.

I notice that in both level 10 examples so far (although two is too small of a sample size to be sure), boosting the mothers had a better effect than boosting the father….

I had also thought of the Trueblade Subaki idea…. +15 Avoid from his personal, +10 avoid from the Trueblade class, and +30 from Flowing Strike gives a +55 avoid bonus… combine that with the weapon triangle and you could have someone very hard to touch on the player phase. I hadn't thought about Golden Kite Warrior, but it makes sense. And of course, you're right, staff bots are useful.

Interesting, and thanks for the data! I'll just briefly look at Matoi because of liking her character… (I then have to get going to other work) Pegasus Warrior Bases: 16 HP, 3 Str, 0 Mag, 5 Skl, 7 Spd, 4 Lck, 2 Def, 6 Res, 7 Move Matoi's Absolute Personal Bases: Level 10, 8 HP, 8 Str, 3 Mag, 5 Skl, 6 Spd, 9 Lck, 5 Def, 6 Res, 7 Move Unmodified Pegasus Warrior Bases + Matoi's Absolute Personal Bases: 24 HP, 11 Str, 3 Mag, 10 Skl, 13 Spd, 13 Lck, 7 Def, 12 Res, 7 Move Actual Level 10 Recruitment 24 HP, 11 Str, 3 Mag, 11 Skl, 13 Spd, 13 Lck, 8 Def, 12 Res, 7 Move Almost identical, EXCEPT +1 SKL and +1 DEF relative to expectations from just adding the bases. Hana: +5 HP, +9 Str, +0 Mag, +6 Skl, +7 Spd, +5 Lck, +4 Def, +9 Res gains over class base stats: Subaki: +8 HP, +6 Str, + 0 Mag, +11 Skl, +4 Spd, +5 Lck, +9 Def Def, +4 Res gains over base class stats…. This doesn't seem to explain it… difference between base stats doesn't seem to really work well…. And I wonder why feeding the stat boosters to different parents gave different results…. I'll have to ponder this another time… does anyone have ideas here?

Oh, I meant defense and speed seal, not strength seal… otherwise, my point stands.

Yes, I was planning on marrying Matoi, on the Hoshido and Invisible Routes, that is… but she's not on the NOHR route at all, and while I was planning to start with Hoshido, I'm planning to do all of the routes eventually. So while I can marry her in 2/3 routes, I need an alternate for the Nohr route. Most of my theory crafting has been built around marriage with Matoi in Hoshido/Invisible, but it occurred me I hadn't given thought to whom to marry on Nohr. So I posed the question of what would be the best spouse/secondary class for my desired +MAG asset on the Nohr route…. so they were giving a valid answer to that question. EDIT: For your question… well, let's see… I'd actually say to go Wyvern if you're planning to marry Takumi… That gives you Nohr Prince, Bowman, and Wyvern, and Takumi gets Holy Bowman, Lancer, and Wyvern. Wyvern carries Strength+2, swordbreaker, deadly breadth, and Overbearing, in addition to cut through and rally defense. Takumi is naturally suited to going Holy Bowman, and his Lancer class line lets him mix in Strength and defense seal if he wants to. You can then drop in Deadly Breath if you want to in order to make Takumi even more dangerous by causing further chip damage to an area even if he doesn't get a kill. Or alternately, against single targets, Overbearing for a boost equivalent to Bowfaire's damage boost for anything that isn't mounted.

Well, yes, it would probably have to be something obscene like TWO Seraph robes and a pair of Dracoshields or something crazy like that… Is it worth it? By almost any objective standard, the answer would be no: they would be far better spent on other units. Could you do it? I suppose you could, yes. I suppose Hana may still have use as a Guard-stance pair-up bot… you know, for +SPD.

Oh, of course… I don't have the game, but from reading Kirokan's wordpress which lists the items in the various chapters, it seems that there are only two Seraphs Robes or so in the main game of Hoshido that can be bought for free, plus another one in the store for 10,000. I myself would much rather use those robes on a unit like my lord unit as they basically are always going to be used (and also have a higher base HP growth to begin with, as well as better DEF growth even with a DEF flaw, and thus better durability overall). My point was more along the lines that if someone wanted to play favorites, they could potentially save a favorite unit from one-shot territory, even if it would be silly to do that from min-max standpoints. I have no particular attachment to Hana and wouldn't do this. But perhaps its a worthwhile sacrifice to someone who is a big fan of her character or who wants to "waifu" her in the game.

Perhaps Seraph's Robe could help her significantly, if you were willing to make the sacrifice for the sake of a unit you really want to use? Would it let her survive one physical hit?

I'm wondering if she'd be better used in her War Priestess class change (disclaimer: I DO NOT have the game and won't until 2016)… this is pure theory crafting… trust the opinions of people who actually have the game over mine… Hana's growth rates: 25% Hp, 55% Str, 10% Mag, 45% Skl, 55% Spd, 25% Lck, 20% Def, 30% Res Trueblade Growths: 10% HP, 10% Str, 5% Mag, 15% Skl, 20% Spd, 15% Lck, 0% Def, 10% Res War Priestess Growths: 10% HP, 10% Str, 10% Mag, 5% Skl, 15% Spd, 15% Lck, 0% Def, 20% Res War Priestess Hana's growth rates: 35% Hp, 65% Str, 20% Mag, 50% Skl, 70% Spd, 40% Lck, 20% Def, 50% Res Same HP, STR, and DEF growth as a Truebalde, and only slightly worse speed…. superior RES growth…. and she'd get access to a 1-2 range weapon that is capable of doubling. Maybe with 50% RES growth and high strength growth she could be something of a Mage Killer?

I'm honestly fine either way with Avatar x character marriage, as well as character x character marriage existing, but I was also perfectly content in games like The Sacred Stones where there was no Avatar and marriage was reserved for the epilogues (and even then, not between all male-female pairs either). Now, that said, given that it exists in Awakening and Fates, I am going to make use of the marriage/"waifu" system, including marrying my Avatar to the characters whom I prefer (such as Cordelia & Matoi). The "waifu" system, for me, is not something I think "this must be there or else I won't buy the game!" I honestly don't care if it gets included or not. I will certainly "waifu" characters in games where such a system exists, but if it doesn't exist, then that's perfectly okay too. FE8 (my 2nd FE) didn't have that. Genealogy has marriage, but not involving a player Avatar. Final Fantasy Tactics, FF Tactics Advance, and FF Tactics A2 didn't have a "waifu" system. Neither did Disgaea… I've played more SRPGs without such a system than ones that I have with one… And for strategy games, none of the Advance Wars had such options either… I enjoyed them perfectly all. Or RTS games (different genre, but still strategy)…. I love those things too. Honestly, I'd be perfectly fine with things if they moved back to a system with no Avatar, a Lord is a defined character in their own right (like Sigurd, Ephraim, Eirika, etc.), and had a more restrictive list of support options. But if they choose to keep "waifu" elements, I'd be fine with that too… although I do wish there was a bit more support variety.

Speaking of Guard Stance pair-up bonuses, are they somewhat similar to what we had in Awakening? I mean, I've heard that the +1 to stats for each 10 you have up to 30 no long applies, which makes sense as they're nerfing pair-up, but does Falcon Warrior still give +4 Spd & + 4Res, becoming +6 Spd & +6 Res in Guard Stance? On that note, do Dark Knights still give +2 Mag, +3 Def, +1 Res, and +1 Move as their basic bonuses [like they did in Awakening before support rank bonuses and the +1 per 10 up to 30 bonuses], which I'm guessing would become +4 Mag, +5 Def, +3 Res, and +1 Move at A rank? EDIT: Oh, on another thread, I noted that I had looked up Dracoshield and Angelic/Seraph Robe locations and found that there were at least two of each as items found/dropped on the Hoshido path, without having to buy them. So, if I gave these to Kamui/Corrin, showning a degree of favoritism as the lord unit, that could boost his survivability…. of course, the same applies to other characters as well. EDIT/ADDENDUM: Changing the topic, what sort of secondary do you think I should bring in for Nohr when the NA version comes out in 2016? I haven't actually decided whom I want to marry on Nohr either… I'd imagine that it would be beneficial to give a Hoshidan-associated class in the Nohr file to bring in a greater diversity of abilities…. that and because the upgrade to Dark Blood means I get the tomes for the magic using builds I'm fond of in a class that retains use of its sword… that and Dark Knight can be attained by A+ buddying (Leon or Odin) or by marriage (Nyx, Ophelia) for a male Avatar on Nohr, or by reversing the A+/S rank options listed before in the case of a female Avatar. Perhaps Oni Savage would be a good idea? It has Shura, which gets tome access (although it doesn't' have sword use, the Avatar doesn't have to use it that class) and Ogre Strike….. this could be very good when passed to a wife like Ophelia (crit stacking, as she already gets +10 crit from her personal with three tomes and more + crit as a Sorc)… or taking brief detour to Shura to use its tomes could let the Avatar himself get Ogre Strike for say letting Luna get a bunch of crits if he was marrying her instead…. And then Blacksmith would work with Yato (and although it would temporarily deny tomes, Levin Swords and Bolt Axes both exist on the Nohr route, though they have cannot crit and cannot activate skill drawbacks)… that could allow a detour to pick up Smithy skill or Lancebreaker… Oh, and Oni Savage also has Resistance Seal… Does anyone have any opinions of whom I should marry on the Nohr route if I'm going +MAG there too?

Even if they don't, its a convenient way to hit all of them at once while only eating up one skill and letting you use any weapon type. Can it affect skill and luck as well? The seals don't hit those…..

A fair point… I had neglected to consider that… So it would be key to debuff the enemy as well where possible, build in extra stats as a safety margin, use tonics, etc… I got a bit further distracted and looked up supposed locations of the stat boosting items… Source: https://kantopia.wordpress.com/2015/06/23/fire-emblem-fates-importers-source-chapter-data-ongoing/ There seem to be two angelic/seraph robes before that chapter, as well as two dragon shields, so I suppose if I wanted to show Kamui/Corrin favoritism (seeing that he is the lord unit, after all), I could have a +10 HP boost and +4 def boost beyond the predicted (+5 and +2 more than the example where I assumed one of each)… 48.85 HP and 22.9 DEF ---> 40 attack enemies deal 17.1 damage (of course, everything will actually be in whole numbers, and there is random variance)… survive two hits, killed on third, before de-buffs are considered… If I added in Horse God (as I'm assuming a tome using Dark Knight here, with the calculated growths) that's +3 DEF… 25.9 DEF predicted with the favoritism of two Dracoshields…. 14.1 damage taken… now I should be surviving 3 hits prior to de-buffs… (Jakob could be substituted in instead of using Horse God for the same three less damage taken)…. Felicia should achieve the same effect (15.1 damage predicted, 15-16 damage in practice before rebuffs, still survive three hits)… Horse God and Jakob would reduce damage by 28.9…. 5HKO…. Demoiselle… getting into the territory of 5HKO…. Interesting…. But as you said, debuts could really mess with these thresholds….

So, based on that Ch. 23, 40 physical attack statistic…. I had been playing around with calculations involving a +MAG/-DEF Dark Knight, leveling through Nohr Princess (and picking up one Falcon Knight level) and then going to 20 promoted as Dark Knight… I was ending up with 43.65 HP (predicted) and 22.1 Def (predicted) for 20/20 with said DEF flaw…. So you were reporting about 20/12 as a level at Ch. 23…. so if I regress back by 8 levels, at 60% HP growth (45%+15%) and 40% Def growth (25% due to flaw +15%) Predicted 20/12: 38.85 HP, 18.9 Def So such a -DEF Avatar would be roughly 2-shotted… 40- 18.9 = 21.1. Of course, this is just sticking to averages predictions, but in that case, if I slapped a Dracoshield onto my Avatar…. predicted 20.9 defense, so a predicted 19.1 damage…. this basically puts me at the cusp of the threshold of surviving two hits on average… 38.85 predicted HP - 19.1 HP x 2 = 0.65…. but of course, actually realized numbers have to be whole numbers in this game… so a tad over the HP prediction (39 HP) would enable such a -DEF Dragon-Shielded avatar to survive 2 hits, right? So a Seraph Robe and a Dracoshield would then tend to put my predicted averages in the territory of surviving two hits (dying on the third) even under the dis-advantage of a -DEF flaw? (38.85 + 5 = 43.85 HP at 20/12; 18.9 +2 = 20.9 DEF at 20/12)… Is this understanding correct?

What level of growths in attacks or defenses would you say a character in a class (i.e., personal + class growths) needs to be successful, either for offensive/defensive purposes?

Only like 1 or 2 reverse weapons of each type are available in the shop, according to the posted data. Also, reverse weapons do nothing with regard to hitting the other defensive stat.

I don't have the game, so I might be wrong, but I might think Strategist so that she can exploit her really high magic growth for use with Tomes. EDIT: Again, any thoughts on the Dark Knight build from post #595?

Hinoka has fairly high speed and luck, as well a +1 speed mod. Oboro also has decent growths here and also passes down Lance Fighter (and thus Basara/Flamboyant access), AND she also A+ supports with Rinkah to pass down Smithy Skill that way… she has a +1 Spd mod, but the catch is she has a -1 Lck mod. EDIT: Anyone have any opinion on my +MAG/-DEF Dark Knight 20/20 from two posts ago?

I don't have the game, so I don't really have a good sense of necessary survivability thresholds, damage thresholds, etc…. perhaps you guys could analyze this for me… As those following the thread probably know already, I have a predilection for using magic, even though I know that Kamui/Corrin is more of a physical type, and I also fit the adjectival descriptor for +MAG (intelligent) is the most true to myself. Likewise, I feel that the -STR or -DEF descriptors (lacks power or can't take a beating) are also the truest descriptor of what I'm actually like, and thus it feels good to have my Avatar reflect me in that sense…. I was thinking of -DEF, despite how dangerous it could be, such that at least the Yato wouldn't be further weakened than it already is by focusing on MAG over STR….. I did a calculator of predicted average 20/20 stats following from the following: 19 gained levels of Nohr Prince 1 gained level of Pegasus Warrior (for Swallow Strike, from wife) 18 gained levels of Dark Knight (for tome access while still being able to use Yato) [i don't necessarily need to exactly follow this pattern; a level or two of difference here and there wouldn't make a huge change to the overall picture} 20/20 Dark Knight stats, average, predicted, before any stat boosters: 43.65 HP, 31.65 Str, 32.8 Mag, 27.1 Skl, 27.95 Spd, 24.2 Lck, 22.1 Def, 17.55 Res +Mag/-Def Dark Knight Max Stats: 55 Hp, 32 Str, 35 Mag, 28 Skl, 29 Spd, 30 Lck, 31 Def, 31 Res But of course, we'd want to factor in Yato: 20/20 Dark Knight stats, average, predicted, before any stat booster consumables, but augmented by Yato - Sky, unequipped: 43.65 HP, 31.65+2=33.65 Str, 32.8 Mag, 27.1 Skl, 27.95+2 = 29.95 Spd, 24.2 Lck, 22.1 Def, 17.55 Res 20/20 Dark Knight stats, average, predicted, before any stat booster consumables, but augmented by Yato - Sky,equipped: 43.65 HP, 31.65+2=33.65 Str, 32.8 Mag, 27.1 Skl, 27.95+3 = 30.95 Spd, 24.2 Lck, 22.1-1=21.1 Def, 17.55-1=16.55 Res 20/20 Dark Knight stats, average, predicted, before any stat booster consumables, but augmented by Yato - Hoshido, unequipped: 43.65 HP, 31.65+4=35.65 Str, 32.8 Mag, 27.1 Skl, 27.95+4 = 31.95 Spd, 24.2 Lck, 22.1 Def, 17.55 Res 20/20 Dark Knight stats, average, predicted, before any stat booster consumables, but augmented by Yato - Hoshido,equipped: 43.65 HP, 31.65+4=35.65 Str, 32.8 Mag, 27.1 Skl, 27.95+5 = 32.95 Spd, 24.2 Lck, 22.1-1=21.1 Def, 17.55-1=16.55 Res Skills known: Noble Lineage, Dragon Fang, Swallow Strike, Bind, Devilish Wind, Magic Seal, Lifetaker How well or poorly would a set of stats like this turn out in the Hoshido route? Naturally, I could shore up weak points by using stat booster items with favoritism if necessary on Kamui/Corrin, which might not be a bad idea, as its often good to show a bit of favoritism to your lord like that. But how is it without that… are my defense too weak because of my DEF flaw? Or does the fact that I've done most of my growth in +10% and +15% Def classes and my choice of class give me enough durability? Dark Knight is naturally slow and would have trouble doubling, but I'm feeling that access to Yato's stat boosts, as well as Horse God if necessary, plus Swallow Strike from my character's wife, could help ease that issue…. is my conclusion correct, or will I still have trouble? EDIT: Horse God stat mods: 20/20 Dark Knight stats, average, predicted, before any stat booster consumables, but augmented by Yato - Sky, unequipped: + Horse God, equipped 43.65 HP, 31.65+2=33.65 Str, 32.8 Mag, 27.1+3 = 30.1 Skl, 27.95+5 = 32.95 Spd, 24.2 Lck, 22.1+3 = 25.1 Def, 17.55+3 = 20.55 Res 20/20 Dark Knight stats, average, predicted, before any stat booster consumables, but augmented by Yato - Hoshido, unequipped: + Horse God, equipped 43.65 HP, 31.65+4=35.65 Str, 32.8 Mag, 27.1+3 = 30.1 Skl, 27.95+7 = 34.95 Spd, 24.2 Lck, 22.1+3 = 25.1 Def, 17.55+3 = 20.55 Res

38 or 39 level ups… you start at 1 and go to 20/0 (gain of 19 levels), then promote to 20/1, then gain 19 levels to 20/20. Or you class change to a class that goes to level 40, like Dread Fighter or Dark Falcon, and that could let you conceivably gain 39 level ups (1 to 40).