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I'm not handwaving anything? I just didn't understand what he was doing, which is why I commented on it. this second paragraph is a paragraph of theory on why scum have the incentive to purposely misrep, responding to me saying you were only talking about theory and there was no grounding in actual events other than to say that I'd done it several times. like you never at any point look at those instances to see whether it made sense for me as scum to misrep something in that situation. not going to directly quote-reply to anything else about me, but your characterization of my play as a whole is wrong. it's frustrating that you put such an emphasis on reading correctly while totally ignoring some posts. it's quite obvious that I think bard is scummy; I have several posts where I say I dislike his posts and that I have a suspicion on him, I put him in a scumteam guess that I made, and I posted a bard case that you quoted. I'm pointing out negative parts of arcanite's play bc he's doing things that don't satisfy me, but I'm not directly scumreading him atm. i'm just questioning him and pushing him to try and get a better read on his play. same with omega but I'm a little more suspicious of him bc I hold him to a higher standard of play. I haven't sheeped refa in any place except on omega. it's definitely not a pattern. there have been times where we've had similar opinions, like both of us voting you, but I voted you like 2 minutes after he voted you. the post was in progress before he said anything but you can decide for yourself if I could have made that post in two minutes after seeing refa's post the rest of eury's reads in the big wallpost don't impress me very much. it's just a lot of "null leaning ___" and even the only actual strong scumread feels very surface-level, like "hey he's not really explaining much must be SCUM". also, if she didn't give any vote priorities or alignment summary at the end, I would think that she would still be voting me on the fencesitting and the sheeping and whatnot. that being said i don't agree with prims that this seems motivated as a counterwagon vote bc she also mentioned prims high up in her prio list and I think prims would have made more sense as a counterwagon vote. i think she's just voting omega bc she got lots of bad flak for the vote against me. also her defence that she found me less suspicious than Refa is disingenuous. she did vote me over Refa cuz Refa already had a lot of pressure at the time, but she found us both equally suspicious, marked by the = sign. still good with this lynch!! omega stuff in next post cuz this one is getting long but spoilers I don't want to lynch him

ok guys back now for about an hour; I've skimmed the past few pages but I'll read them more and respond in detail to stuff. before that though just some rolespec cuz of some questions: i think people don't understand how important lynch control is. in a 9/3/1 game where the mayor is mafia that means the mafia controls 4 votes in a 13p game. Minimum to lynch is 5 so that means they could almost by themselves force a certain lynch. they probably wouldn't tie themselves to each other like that, but they dont need to cuz of how uncertain people are. and if they needed to to avoid a scum lynch they could. and if the scum mayor is a good player, like sb in antihero, their vote counting double + them having good persuasive capabilities means whoever they want to get lynched is going to get lynched p much every day. in a 9/3/1 game this would snowball really fast. i'm 95% sure snike is not mafia. i could conceive an ITP mayor but nothing about his play suggests that and ITP hunting at this point is lame. prims is also town imo cuz of similar snowballing reasons. i really don't think this would happen cuz town needs the numbers to work out so well. i briefly considered that prims was totally BSing cuz he has the guts to do that, but if that was the case he wouldn't say "i get a small role if i lose my DPV" bc it would incentivize town to lynch him to test his role. next posts will be about content

shinori I hate to tell you this but most of your setups have been really scumsided. i'm not sure which multiball game had the scum mayor but if it was the one where one team had the scum persuader, town got fucked by roles/setup harder in that game than in maybe any game ever. i trust sb's game balance more and I trust he wouldn't have scum mayor in 9:(4) i could maybe be persuaded to lynch omega but I don't have time to read your case right now; will get to it later. my feeling though is that I'll get a better read on his alignment with a scumflip cuz I think interactions will be more telling than his actual play bc he has a weird playstyle I don't think eury defending you is really indicative of her alignment; probably more indicative of her being your girlfriend. there are lots of other things to the case against her though. this is a summary of my case:

this was the paragraph that bard took an issue with

walrein is really just null. i don't have a lot of scumreads atm and in my experience someone whom you don't have any kind of read on always ends up being scum so i picked him over rapier for the last spot because his posting pattern so far (a string of posts near the start of the day followed by nothing) is similar to last game. but others like prims, shinori, and arcanite could also be scum in that last spot.

whoops missed a link. talking about this post

bard is using basically the same arguments as eury for pushing me. He just isn't committing to them as much, though I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or bad thing. his bit about how I'm using my reputation for having bad misreading skills as a defence is dumb bc I'm not doing that. I don't like his case on me and I think his case on arcanite is willfully ignorant bc I told him "yeah ofc arcanite is skittish he's playing like his second game" and his response was to say that he doesn't know meta and is only going to focus on this game. not knowing meta and therefore not taking it into account is one thing, being told about a player's experience level and ignoring it is a totally different thing. experience =/= meta anyways. he's also talked a lot more about me than Shinori so I'm not really sure why his vote is there. also I didn't really realize this until someone (snike?) pointed it out recently bc a lot of his content was centered around me, but his last couple posts were kind of filler-y and didn't really try to engage with the thread. I think his first big post entry post was mostly not that scummy even if I didn't agree with the cases and I disliked how he talked about you. but this post is basically just a big post talking about why he's not giving content. this post doubles down on bad opinions (imo) and is essentially only a direct response to my posts talking to him, and not anything else that happened, including all my other posts not responding to him, and posts by another of his main scumreads, arcanite. dunno he did say he's busy so maybe when he comes into the thread next time he'll give more opinions on more people, and update his suspicions and stuff. part of my suspicion is also that I think he's been town in all his previous games on SF and he was a lot more obvtown and got killed N1 in most of them. this just doesn't seem up to that standard.

are we doing DAY 1 SCUMTEAM GUESSES mine is eury/bard/walrein with omega ITP i don't actually have a problem with what walrein posted but his posting patterns 2/3rds of the way into D1 have followed his patterns from last game pretty closely. rapier wild card tbh i doubt rapier even read that I also claimed to be an informed role.

idt arcanite has ever scumread me for misreading. his stance has been that it makes him wary and that's in the back of his mind but it's not the main thing he's using to judge my alignment, which I think is a fair way of going about it. main problem with arcanite right now is that I don't really know who he thinks is scum. his vote's on Refa but it seems from his words that that's dying down. also he talks about prims needing to come back and give darned good content which kind of seems like he didn't see Prims's content over the past few pages? dunno i'm like slightly leaning town on Weapons. suspicious parts about him imo are just his general tone while playing; basically the secondary parts of Prims and Refa's cases about self-consciousness. but I don't think the change on Prims is a sign of him being inauthentic. my reason for the slight townread is wifomy but I don't really see the benefit for scum!Weapons in wagoning onto Prims in that context. Refa was voting Weapons and also criticizing the Prims wagon and Weapons' response to that was to... sheep onto the Prims wagon? just feels like a very odd time to do it when the backlash against the wagon had already started, which makes me think he legit thought prims was scummy. sheeping refa's read on omega. general tone and proactiveness are good but he just says stuff with a lot of conviction and no real evidence like "one of prims/arcanite is scum" and "one of prims/weapons" is scum, which is weird. not really sure what to do about it.

uh is that a role action or are you just making a joke? also something I forgot to say wrt bard vs eury- i do think that bard is at least going to more of an effort to TRYING to give examples of me doing something scummy based on misreading. his examples are just bad imo so it leaves me confused.

i guess that's fair. my answer would be that regardless of her alignment, eury probably thought the reasons for townreading me on role were dumb and she could get people to change those easily. i also think that again regardless of alignment she didn't want to vote refa because there was already a wagon on him. bard has pushed the misreading thing like eury has too, which is part of why I dislike him. but he hasn't pushed it as much as eury has I guess so @Bard I would like you to clarify- do you think I'm intentionally misreading things to push a scum agenda or do you think me misreading a lot is just grounds to be wary? and if the former, why is shinori scummier than me?

omega's switch back to prims is really weird. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he just forgot to post his reasoning in his initial prims vote way back when, so that was fine I think. but then prims made a bunch of other posts, he mentioned that he mostly agreed with prims's scumreads, and he spent most of the past two pages talking about refa/eury- I don't understand why he switched back to prims at all. i can't actually remember the content inside eury's wallposts as town vs scum much bc my meta used to be that she would just find excuses not to post as scum and not really make any wallposts, so I barely ever even read them because I would just take her to be town as soon as she made wallposts. but then she had a game where she made wallposts as scum and I had to throw that meta out, rip to the 2nd easiest town meta ever (I hope my manix town meta never goes away) i will say though that this isn't so much her being nitpicky about my wording as her saying I'm scum because my actions have theoretical scum intent rather than showing why actions have actual scum intent with examples as to the lasting negative impact my misreading has had on the game.

via I don't think anybody is suspicious of eury for her rolespec about my claim? I'm suspicious of her because she's insistent on saying that I misread things on purpose to mess people's reads up while not giving any evidence for why she thinks I am doing so in this game, just theory on why a hypothetical scum might do so. it's part of a larger context of her looking at things in isolation and calling them scummy without looking at the context surrounding them, like her pushing refa for having filler posts even though it was RVS, or her pushing me for "coasting" by not pressing arcanite more even though arcanite had already talked about everything going on at that time. i don't think shinori interactions are a large part of the case against her either.

idk I'm probably being silly bc the rest of your post is mostly ok but it still bothers me ;/ but I'm not really interested in talking more about which of two page 2 cases you should have voted for so whatever. i don't really agree with the crux of the weapons vote though? i don't think there's much of a contradiction; it's valid to just think on first pass "yeah whatever this is fine" and say so when someone asks you, and then reread it again later and realize "wait no I don't like this". just because he answered a question about you doesn't mean he'd specifically gone back to read your posts. @Omega, why do you think Refa could be an ITP? i don't see anything that hints at that specifically. this feels like a weird accusation especially because you're aware of the fact that refa and eury don't make much sense as buddies so it feels like you wanted to push them both and are coming up with a reason to justify that? also, via doesn't really bother me. would like him to talk about his opinions on arcanite now though

i agree that the rvs arcanite wagon for having one filler post in RVS was dumb... but this doesn't actually make Refa having filler posts scummy either. the shinori defence stuff tbh I don't think is a great part of the case against eury. that just seems like playstyle differences wrt Eury including shinori in her priority list. that being said she was defending shinori. stuff like this is defending shinori's play: also this bit from eury on refa: lmao eury you misread refa's point totally. refa was saying that I would jump onto the Refa wagon after Prims responded to my vote on him, not that Prims would jump onto the Refa wagon. how could you be so careless if you're town??? WERE YOU TRYING TO PURPOSELY MISCONSTRUE REFA'S POSTS TO PUSH A CASE AGAINST HIM??? to be clear, I do think that this was a harmless misread. but that's the point; people post a lot of words and sometimes we mess up in reading them.

i dont have time to respond to anything but bard's post yes but... get this... once I realized I misread, I took all those things back. I'm not using it as an "excuse" to go around misrepping people; I just said that misreading people doesn't make me scum. I made some mistakes, once I realized I did, I corrected them. where am I using my misinterpretations to continue pushing cases AFTER I've realized what I'm doing is wrong? this whole thing is dumb. the posts that I had an issue with occurred after your posts making this point though i heavily disliked it because you're making this pompous grand statement like "LOOK AT ME I'M PURPOSELY NOT READING REFA'S WAGON!!!!" and actually you are. your contention was with their content, and their content was their votes on Refa??? i'm also not waffling because I never said it was scummy, because I couldn't find any scum intent in it. it just makes me feel uncomfortable. wtf are you talking about??? i KNOW I misread, and once I misread, I clarified what I meant or took it back. i'm not "happily continuing stints". wrt the weapons misread- i thought he was saying X, which I liked, but he was saying Y. once I realized this, I said X because that's what I actually found suspicious with Refa, and then I said I didn't like Y. i seriously have no idea what you're trying to say about my play. here's my opinion on yours- I cant look at any of your posts and say "this has scum intent". but I dont like most of what you're saying and your tone makes me uncomfortable. I have you as a minor suspicion because of this.

my bad I was just thinking like 'who the fuck is PK' and then then I realized that's Via wrt my last post, I meant that it looks like Prims was just wagoning to add pressure, not weapons 9/4 is dumb so I guess there is an ITP??? 9/3/1 seems dumb too though. 9/2/2? idk any 13p setup with only 9 town is pretty wonky. i don't think there's a conflict between this role and mine though. they give two different types of information. eury I understand that those things COULD happen and that misreading can lead to bad things. but where is the evidence that I'm purposely misreading to let those things happen or SEEKING to misread, like you claim, as opposed to just making mistakes? you're just assuming that I'm doing this to create chaos or whatever. you say that you don't buy that it's a mistake but why not? wrt my prims reasoning- what prims did is scummy because... wagoning people for bad reasons is scummy??? if arcanite is town it's him pushing for a ml on a newbie? do I really need to explain this so much? don't think it says much about weapons's alignment. and how are my votes lazy? now you're just making things up. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Eury more confident in this than prims now, since the prims stuff happened a while back now. she's focusing in on sections of peoples posts and questioning them about stuff in isolation rather than looking at things as a whole or looking at context. the misreading thing is the biggest example, but also, she's pushing me for coasting regarding arcanite- whatever you want to say about my reads being bad, it's pretty hard to look at my play as a whole and say that I'm coasting. and at the time of that exchange, only about 5 people had posted something serious and arcanite had given an opinion on all of them. refa had only one read? so what, it was page 2. how many reads do you expect him to have at that point? also a lot of her posts have questions to which the answers are just exceedingly obvious or have already been directly stated. it reads like asking questions for the sake of it to produce content. refa was literally voting arcanite, of course he thinks arcanite's vote was scummy. and how does the wagon on refa have anything to do with his read on arcanite?

weapons, there are 4 other people voting for prims and nobody is voting him for the same reason afaics. which ones specifically do you agree with? @refa- i mean like, here it reads like he's just jumping on the wagon to add pressure.

i get that he said it's not that strong which is fine cuz just out of RVS. I guess I've been making it seem through my wording like this is SUPER STRONG, which I didn't mean to do. but I just don't see how, regardless of what he says, the arcanite stuff is stronger? his initial arcanite case wasn't good, why is posting filler in RVS scummy? and he didn't actually even vote arcanite for it until other people did. it just reads like trying to start a wagon, and this is where the meta comes in- prims hasn't done it as town in the past. i didn't really like your vote on arcanite but at least I could see the scum motivation that you're accusing arcanite of in your vote? wrt arcanite waffling it feels like they take stances but they just have so much stuff being unsure about it. like wrt me he thinks I'm town but there are lines like: just feels like too many words it's fair that there wasn't necessarily anything to cheerlead but it's just like really incongruous. if he doesn't think you're scum why is he focusing all his posts on flaws in your play? at best it's filler if he didn't find you scummy. but idk what did you think while he was questioning you? i guess that's fair wrt arcanite that shinori didn't presume you were a liar so much as just talk about how your vote was bad. i do agree that this makes arcanite's vote more static, but the read as a whole can still evolve bc he can evaluate other parts of your play and that can outweigh that initial vote or add to it. that's what confuses me wrt your unvote- arcanite essentially doubled down on the static-ness of his initial read on you by not adding anything to it but you still unvoted?

This is stronger than his arcanite vote.and he didnt even vote arcanite u til after you and via did

weapons vote was grounded in scum intent and had meta backings for how scum Weapons plays; arcanite case was a combo of "why post filler?" (in RVS) and gut. no idea how you think it's stronger than the weapons vote.

arcanite's last couple posts feel a bit padded cuz they waffle a lot. it also feels like a majority of their content is asking questions and unlike say Eury's questions I'm not exactly sure how several of those questions are related to peoples alignments. also arcanite what do you think of Refa's other content that he posted that's not related to you? i think the misread thing was valid to bring up when you first voted bc that was a large part of refa's content but he's posted other stuff since then related to me and weapons and it feels like you're just doubling down on the misread thing without looking at that stuff. omega, i'm very confused you talk about how prims is scummy for aforementioned reasons but I can't actually find those reasons anywhere??? is it just the stuff that Shinori and I said? anyways my last couple posts have been all over the place bc I was talking about stuff out of order but it's still prims > eury, for me beyond that it's just a hodgepodge of minor suspicions on refa, shinori, bard, and arcanite.

read shinori's posts again from that time; he said that refa's posts were the scummiest thing in the thread but that he didn't think Refa was scummy.

back home for 30 mins, time to use that time to play mafia instead of eat lunch wifom stuff is fair I guess. the rest is dumb. i never said I didn't misread??? and if I HAD said I didn't misread then how could I be flaunting my misreading? my point is just that misreading is not alignment indicative unless you think I'm specifically misreading to push a scum agenda and eury didn't provide any evidence of me doing so. when I pressed her on it she just said "yeah but you could" hoo boy you're about to get acquainted to playing with shinori dislike the first half of this arcanite bit. they had 3 posts. 1 was RVS and 2 were content. they're new of course they're going to be skittish. they wanted to vote refa; imo talking about other peoples cases on refa while doing so is a good thing, not a bad thing. second half is fair regarding PoE and his part about me. idk if this is scummy but i just really dislike how this is phrased, not because you're saying that the wagon is dumb but then not looking at it, but because you're saying that you're not going to look at it, except 2/3 of your suspicious (Shinori, me, arcanite) are voting Refa, and your suspicions on them are directly based on their actions towards refa. so you ARE giving refa's wagon a lot of attention. missed this post while phonereading sorry all the WALLS caught my eye instead. I think I answered about the waffling though.

Tbh I misread weapons's vote on refa too fuck me more fuel for the misread case. Sorry guys it feela like I'm reading people's cases and seeing in them what I found suspicious with the person they're voting rather than what their case actually was. I thought weapons was saying the inconsistency was bad bc refa pretended it was one thing and then made it out to be the other thing. Refa did this later with the arcanite vote. But really weapons is just saying it's suspicious bc he thought it was going to be one thing and then it turned out to be the other and that's a dumb vote. Also wrt shinori there's scum benefit in pushing someone heavily while saying they're not scummy bc you're cheerleading a wagon w/o tying yourself to it. But then he did later anyways I guess. Also Arcanite's vote against you is part of their reaction to the pressure against them. And idk like you voted them on a misread, said you were wrong, but then kept voting them for a reason you hadn't brought up before. Imo this is a more suspicious form of misreading than anything I've done bc you justified a vote on it and then stuck with it even when that justification was shown to be untrue. It's also not very different from shinori's vote and you think that's fine?