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every time I read a new athena case I reread his posts and I don't really agree with junko's case. i semi-agree with the timing of the satsuma vote removal being suspicious but all the stuff about athena's EoD actions is heavily overblown. there is a kind of inconsistency wrt athena originally being okay with lynching marth earlier on and then not being okay with it near phase end, but there isn't really any scum intent here unless athena and marth are buddies. however, athena does say why he doesn't like the marth wagon (although he's wrong about why the wagon exists) and his bart vote was a pretty clear not-me-over-me so detailed justification doesn't need to exist. idk it's like... athena isn't really a townread for me anymore because a bunch of the roleclaims today have shifted up towniness of other people and made it more likely he's scum through PoE. but all the cases feel like they're picking at small parts of his play which look bad rather than showing how his posts have an overarching scum motivation?

well you could also set up a connection between a scum and a town so the scum could get the townie's trust. and if one of the co-networkers is scum it's probably not the only part to their role, just the part that provides an easy and provable claim. so it's pretty null.

on SF, decoy (or reverse martyr) is used to refer to what smogon refers to as martyr. please use our GOOD and CORRECT rolenames walrein mack, co-networkers are two players who each pick a target. those two targets then get a quicktopic with each other. athena claimed to be one of the co-networkers near the end of D1. not sure if he was the one who targeted refa or the other co-networker did.

on SF, martyr means that actions aimed at the martyr's target get redirected to the martyr. I think you're using the BAD and WRONG martyr definition from smogon, where the martyr's target's actions get redirected to the martyr

no that just means someone tried targeting refa with the co-networker and got nightmare/mack instead

to use ISOs, you can also use the script in this post i would actually recommend not just ISOing people if you're subbing in though. you'll miss a lot of context and stuff and subbing in lets you look at the game with fresh eyes that people in the game miss @walrein- what, I'm pretty sure refa did not claim co-neighbourizer. athena did.

i think that while it's true that both town and mafia can have bad logic, I think it's going a step too far to say that town are MORE likely to have bad logic. scum can also have bad logic because they have to force reads and make up reasoning and sometimes they cant achieve that while maintaining good/consistent logic.

anyways I reread walrein. tbh he didn't actually have many suspicions beyond athena and then marth. the former was a kind of RVSy reason that he parked on for a bit too long and the latter was a pretty shallow one-liner. but when he was active he just felt more comfortable then he did as scum in cuphead? like there was a post where he was joking about how he was planning on using his reputation as a flaker to slack in this game, and i dont think he would have wanted to draw attention to that as scum. come back @Walrein :( just bc you realized rein's not playing doesn't mean you have to take his flaker mantle fwiw I also assumed weapons was trolling in my reread but I can see why via might not have. refa's sheeping of sully confused me more than his sheeping of weapons though. regardless what's the scum intent there on via/refa's part eclipse? if that action of weapons is null bc the odds of a turbolynch were so low, shouldn't the same logic be applied to the people who sheeped him? especially since town weapons would presumably say he was trolling before the lynch happened?

on a more serious note, I agree with via that shinori is a good scum player because he's very confident and can take advantage of uncertainty among townies in a game. i'm not suspicious of him in this game though. are there any specific posts or actions by him that are making you paranoid, or is it just a general vibe? this post confuses me. are you admitting that what you did was scummy?

don't even wait for him to talk in lylo, just lynch him on the spot

you should ALWAYS be paranoid about shinori and if it's lylo and he's alive, ALWAYS lynch him. no exceptions

my feeling about kirsche is that I haven't really agreed with his cases much but I've felt that he hasn't really been playing much to scum meta? he's not tunneling as much as i would expect and he seems more willing to re-evaluate stuff. i actually don't think it's a good idea to give you a reads list before you catch up, sorry sully. one of the main advantages of being a sub is that you can approach the game with fresh eyes and maybe catch something that people who've been immersed in the game miss. giving you a reads list would bias you towards/against those people. man wtf happened to walrein he was my strongest townread through the first 24 hours rip. prolly going to be my next reread although i am suspicious of weapons somewhat i will admit part of my read is just that i think everyone else other than jb has been townier. #d2poe

sully, does your role just check if someone has actions (so if they have a passive role vs an active role)? in that case I can see some use because sully could target marth for example to clarify whether or not he has an action? i think scum are more likely to have at least some active components to their role (although having an active component doesn't make you scum)

very glad I wasn't here for the weapons stuff. i do agree with via that he's doing a lot of that kind of stuff this game, more than normal. but then when he's posted content it's been decent? :weary: wouldn't actually mind voting there but for now ##Vote: Jaybee post has links instead of quotes cuz jb's posts are large I think I covered why his initial posts voting Fable weren't great. Just felt like he jumped on something that was obviously "bad" and didn't really talk about anything else, even as he was pushing Fable for not doing so. and then when he comes back later his Fable unvote felt weird because there wasn't really any sort of progression? he just unvotes without saying why and then never talks about Fable again. this reinforces my feeling that this vote was very opportunistic. this post right after isn't very good. it's implied in this post due to this question to refa that he still finds fable suspicious, but he never actually looks at fable's posts. kind of makes me feel like he dropped it because he was getting flak for it. i dislike the eclipse bit because he's attacking her play and saying he doesn't know what to make of it even though he concludes by saying she's town. kirsche bit is similarly waffly and I don't think it was even true. bit on bartozio is ~okay~ but also waffly and worded as a pressure vote because it would be more valuable than a zeus vote. last part feels strange because he hadn't talked about zeus at all. weapons stuff is fine though. this is probably his best post but there's still stuff i don't like. the stuff on marth's claim is just... wrong and I think several people pointed it out and he keeps saying it in subsequent posts regardless so idk what was going on there. the bit on eclipse is decent but it's kind of a departure from his earlier read on her and feels like a recurring problem with his play where his cases seem to be heavily based on just one post. it was like that with fable and bartozio (initially anyways) too. i think his reasoning for staying on bartozio here is reasonable.

@Sully- ??? what's so suspicious about kirsche "doing something". everyone has a role and most of them are probably active. 16/5/1 is probably about right for numbers though, yeah. @snike- ehh the bartozio cases weren't really made at that point, before the first two of htose athena posts, and the bit about bartozio messing up his claim had just happened. i think it's an okay progression.

wait actually I forgot I was reading athena's end of day posts again bc of what Snike said. snike can you point out where he flip-flipped on bart for distancing? it looks like he wasn't really suspecting bart that much but voted him at the end for not-me-over-me which makes sense to me.

going to read jaybee next; he's basically my only suspicion left from d1. i was going to read him after junko/nightmare but got distracted by the claim. i'm inclined to think nightmare is town? at the least I wouldn't lynch him yet because either the maf will kill him or he'll get himself killed through his role if he's town. and if he's scum they'll have to pick suboptimal kills to give him plausible fake targets. the cases on junko aren't very convincing and I don't suspect him at the moment. but I'm not specifically townreading him.

macho martyr makes perfect sense because that way the martyr can't be docced, so you prevent protective role circlejerking. however missing it is a kind of big omission which would make sense if it was a fake. ughhh idk

the "scumslip" is that the role PMs are worded: "In other words, you are the <insert role> You are a member of the Upright..." whereas nightmare implied it was all one line. but i don't think this is a scumslip because there's a sample town role PM on the first page and it's probably worded the same way for scum too.

I was hoping the kill would be me tbh even though nobody was townreading me. mafia is misery. alternatively I was hoping it would be refa so it would be like a N1 death by proxy. I don't disagree with the Nightmare cases. I think everything people pointed out about flaws in his play is correct. I just don't know how much weight to give to any of it when Nightmare hasn't played in so long. the nightmare claim :weary:

not feeling the Junko case. maybe bc he was defending me but I think I agreed with a lot of what he said, even if I didn't necessarily agree with the interpretation. eg I agreed that kirsche was taking my actions out of context even if I didn't think he was scum. I also think that the bit about him tunneling is not reeally true for most of the day. I do think the vote became more of a park/tunnel near the end, but there was only one post that I really objected with: i think he's kind of dismissive of kirsche's content here, especially because kirsche says that he finds bibbon more suspicious than me (so putting her as a third suspicion) and the nightmare read doesn't seem like just pressure to me. I'd like to see more reads from Junko but yeah don't want to lynch him atm.

whoops accidentally submitted the post too early. meant to say that eury was a weird kill given that she made only a handful of posts, even though I thought she was town. i probably need to reread some of the more obvtown people, sigh. alternatively she got killed for having good reads but I didn't read her posts very thoroughly so I don't even know what her reads were. anyways I was too busy/demotivated over N1 to reread and I'm not really feeling most of my D1 scumreads anymore for various reasons, so it might take me a bit to vote. Day 2 is the worst. I don't really see the point of voting Nightmare if he's subbing out. @Lord Gaius were you following along with the game at all?

eh my character isn't really that related to role so in case you didn''t catch it when I said it at the start of the day, I'm Refa. I thought eury was town but given that she made only a handful of posts

you have played on SF before haven't you fenrir? SF almost always requires a minimum amount of votes for a lynch. >1/3 is on the low side actually; lots of games need >1/2. also, what do you mean by vanity wagon? snike, are you implying your rolename is "Town Godfather" (effectively making you a miller to Rolecops)? if so, why didn't you claim that satsuma? bartozio if you're around and if you're town who would you lynch tomorrow? is athena actually your strongest scumread or was that a not-me-over-me?

Fine with keeping my vote on bart. The role feels kind of like a scum implementation because for example if he gets inspected by a cop the cop would get hooked the next night so that gives scum some breathing room. I don't feel it's as useful for town because even if he gets killed by mafia it doesn't block the kill the next night; they would just have someone else take the kill. Compare to marth's role, where if he's shot, mafia basically lose a kill because it takes two nights to resolve.